Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

amzolt

Well-known member
This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

What astrology does predict or reveal is Meaning.

"O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?"

Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event. Here's some proof of that:

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

There was a strong indicator in their charts at a certain time, and I asked the first man what happened. He said his father had died. I asked the other man, with the same chart, what happened, and he said he'd been on his first nude beach...

Obviously, the same chart had shown two very different events! Then, I asked the first man (by the way, I interviewed these men separately), "What did it mean when your father died?" He said that he'd felt like he'd had shackles removed (his father had been rather authoritarian). I asked the other man, "What did it mean to be on your first nude beach?" He said that he had dropped his shackles...

They used exactly the same, and not so common, word to describe what two very different events meant...

So, astrology doesn't predict events, it predicts meanings.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Well said, Amzolt, and an important message to be conveyed, esp to those, who use Astrology to determine their lives or make decisions for them!

I guess that while understanding the "meaning" of a certain configuration in a chart, a lot also depends on the question asked and the context. For instance, had one/both of the two men asked something like, can you see, if I will ever be able to come out of myself and experience freedom; some (say Uranus) configuration/transit or whatever may give some indications to that effect, and, since we know the "meaning" of, say, Uranus, we can (then) try to understand it in that context. What I am trying to say is that understanding the "meaning" 'within the scope' of the context/question makes the "meaning" perhaps more concrete and fitting to the situation, giving it a somewhat predictive character.

Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.

:)AQ7
 

katydid

Staff member
Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.


YES. Which is why it is virtually impossible to answer questions such as " Does Michael Jacksons chart say he is guilty or innocent of those charges?' by looking at his transits/progressions.

The chart describes the incident astrologically, but there is no way of telling the difference between being accused and arrested for child abuse, vs. actually doing the crime. They show up as the same thing astrologically, afflictions to 12th, 8th, 5th, from
Mars/Uranus/Neptune.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
Amzolt, thanks for naming the planet involved in the case of the two men you interviewed. However, it was not the planet responsible in the case of the two men that formed the crux of my previous post, but the fact that the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction, IMO.

;)AQ7

PS: Mr Hyde, that's a pretty & cool avatar there:cool:.
 
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I think people that have been studying, using and even teaching astrology will agree with a lot of what you have said. I think it's bit like some people here looking for or trying to predict a 'death signature'

Astrology cannot predict environmental, family influences or describe if you are King, prince or pauper.

Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)
 

amzolt

Well-known member
...the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction...

In this particular case I wasn't performing as an astrologer giving a consultation. The men asked no questions. I was conducting research and asking all the questions. The meanings which flowed in those sessions weren't mine to supply; they were what the men told me...
 

amzolt

Well-known member
Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)

What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events...

Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
 

Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
Strange indeed, it comes with years and years of experience. And those experiences just as you say differ. What works for others, doesn't work for others as well.

Confusing little world we live in :)
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Amzolt,RE:
Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

Sorry. I can't just *accept* that these two people had the *same chart*. It's most unlikely.
I wouldnt base any theory on something as anecdotal as this.
And are you de-bunking the whole practice of *Predictive Astrology*? Somehow, if it was good enough for William Lilly et al, it's good enough for me.
Predictive astrology CAN very accurately reflect the *types* of events that might occur-not an *exact occurrence*..but very experienced astrologers could potentially hone that down into a fine art.
Horary astrology is about *what will happen*. Are you suggesting this is invalid too?
Cheers
Lillyjgc
 

amzolt

Well-known member
Amzolt,RE:
Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

Sorry. I can't just *accept* that these two people had the *same chart*. It's most unlikely.
I wouldnt base any theory on something as anecdotal as this.

I don't quite understand your saying "most unlikely". They were born in the same hospital at the same time (certified). This is not "anecdotal". It's a situation with two people born in the same place at the same time with the same chart...
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

Well-here's a bit more anecdotal *proof*:My own personal astrologer accurately predicted the following events (not *meanings*) in my life:
My survival of a life threatening illness and the outcome of surgery.
The death of my son
The time of my house move
The finding of my stolen car
the return of my dog

I could go on, but you get the idea.
If what you believe is true, how would you account for this?
(Of course, you'll have to take my word for it, in much the same way you are asking us to overthrow our own beliefs about astrology based on just your post.)
Cheers
Lillyjgc
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Yes. that's your opinion. We will agree to disagree here.My own opinion (like yours) is based on my own *experiential facts*.I am most unlikely to change my view based on someone else's *experience*that happened a long time ago.
The area of Astrology that mosts interests me IS the predictive side.I see more point in being able to use astrology to steer a course through life, based on knowledge of the likelihoods/probabilities/possibilities than just using astrology to *understand oneself better*.Although that's in it too.

I do live my life being guided by the stars, and I have no hesitation in saying that.
Also, on the subject of *predicting death*, it has been done for thousands of years, using astrology.If it hasnt been done *well* maybe it simply means we have a lot more to learn.
Cheers
Lillyjgc
 

waybread

Staff member
amzolt, I am 98% in your camp, and have often used similar language to explain to people why an astrologer really can't answer questions like "when will I get married?" or "am I doomed to be childless?" I think there are good or bad, likely or unlikely times for something to happen, and also that individuals have some degree of choice in most matters. My 2% out here relates to two factors:

1. Some astrologers have such amazingly fine-tuned predictive abilities that I suspect they are psychics. In such cases, I think a horoscope functions like a medium's crystal ball. It provides a way for the adept to focus. Of course such predictions would be consistent with the horoscope, but then a given transit or placement can suggest multiple, different outcomes.

2. Some astrologers use advanced methods that the average astrologer wouldn't practice. I have two examples similar to yours, amzolt, with astro-twins. One was with actual twins born closely together. Although there were slight differences in their charts, the differences were so slight that they didn't seem to explain why one twin had normal mental capabilities, and the other was autistic. On this forum I once saw an astro-twin for my daughter: same birth date, nearly same birth time, same ASC, just some difference in birth location. There were some striking similarities in their lives to date [both women in their 20s] but also some differences. These examples could support the "energy" or "meaning" theories; but an astrologer whom I really respect suggested that dwad charts might tell a different story. Dwads are based upon dividing each sign into 12 segments of 2.5 degrees, such that each forms its own little zodiac. A dwad chart can pick up finer-grained differences between astro twin charts. [ http://astrologeraliceportman.xanaduonline.com.au/astrology/articles.html ]

So there's always the possibility that some astrologers are just better at predictions than others. On the other hand, I believe in a choice-centered astrology.
 

EJ53

Banned
Amzolt said:
O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?".............Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event.....

Hi Lilly,

Hasn't Amzolt already explained clearly here why his assertion is correct, despite the fact that accurate predictions can be made by applying other known factors and/or non-astrological skills (as explained by Aq7 and Waybread)?

Thus, your astrologer probably had some idea/knowledge of what was going on in your life at the time the predictions were made.......But, would those predictions have been as accurate if made solely from a chart chart of someone the astrologer had not met and knew absolutely nothing about?.........(Perhaps you could test this using a chart of someone you know well but the astrologer does not know at all).

And it seems to me that this is also the case with horary.......For example, knowing that I'm searching for a lost fish gives me the same information that Amzolt would have had if he'd known beforehand about the father's death/nudist introduction of these two men.......However, what if someone gave us a horary chart with specified significators but without the question?......We could still explain what the chart said/predicted, but couldn't be accurate about what it applied to.

Guess what I'm trying to say here is that Amzolt's assertion does not mean that predictive astrology is invalid........merely that events cannot be accurately predicted from "cold" readings of charts...........Which I suspect most astrologers/students would agree with wholeheartedly (including yourself).

EJ:unsure:
 
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Awakened_Pisces

Well-known member
It is much easier to read a written book then it is to try and guess what the next page is. You have the past as a reference, but you can still be wrong. To be extremely accurate, as Waybread said you'd have to be psychic. Or just really into it. But such people are few and far between :).
 

samsum78

Well-known member
That's why there are divisional charts and you have to interpret based on these finer factors and constellations. Even a few seconds make a difference.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Well, if the two people Amzolt formerly mentioned,lived in different places, we'd certainly have to consider *relocation astrology* as well.
I'm surprised that excellent astrology is being put down to *psychic abilities* here.The astrologer to whom I referred is in no way psychic, nor would claim to be.Sixty years of devoting one's life solely to the study of Astrology may have had something to do with the skill level though.
If a pianist plays a difficult piece exquisitely,do we automatically assume they must be channelling some great Master? Or do we acknowledge the work that went into their performance, even if it is beyond our comprehension *how* it was achieved?

I disagree strongly with the *self-fulfilling prophecy* clause too. If I relate this to the examples I gave, the death of my son was in no way the result of my actions, or wishes, I can assure you.However an astrologer accurately predicted that I would lose my son.
My survival of a life threatening illness and the outcome of surgery: The chart showed the skill of the surgeon would be enough.Correct. I am still here.

The time of my house move: The astrologer to whom I refer does not live in any proximity to me.I asked, When will I move? He was correct in terms of the timing.(and other details)
And yes, this was shown by transits to my Natal.
The finding of my stolen car: Yes. He told me it would be found, where (the direction) and how long it would take. Correct on all counts.
the return of my dog: This was an easy one for him.

I totally understand what is being said in regard to *blind readings* but many Astrologers accurately predict for people they've never met, by having a good understanding of the way transits affect natal aspects.
William Lilly somewhere in one of his books stressed the notion of*likelihoods*. In those days Astrology was done a different way.Charts were drawn by hand. Obviously there will be a different interpretation depending on *who* one is reading for. When Lilly was writing there was no concept of being able to draw up hundreds of charts a day and do readings across cyberspace.The process was designed to involve one on one interaction, in a context where there could be an exchange of information that helped the Astrologer to consider *likelihoods*.When done this way, there's no reason why a competent astrologer could not accurately predict certain events.

It's almost impossible to accurately forecast specific events for people who are not in any way known to you.But to say that predicting events is impossible whilst not taking into account the way Astrology was intended to be applied, denies the really excellent forecasters the credit they deserve, in my opinion.
Lillyjgc
 
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