Astrology of Sleep
- Thread starter Bunraku
- Start date
I am not sure about that.
But I do have a question. I have seen two very different schools of thought concerning 'sleep' and what you look to in a chart to see someone's sleep habits, etc.
Many say Neptune, Pisces and 12th rules sleep and sleeping.
While others give Saturn the rulership. I don't understand why Saturn would be the ruler of sleep though. Any ideas?
But I do have a question. I have seen two very different schools of thought concerning 'sleep' and what you look to in a chart to see someone's sleep habits, etc.
Many say Neptune, Pisces and 12th rules sleep and sleeping.
While others give Saturn the rulership. I don't understand why Saturn would be the ruler of sleep though. Any ideas?
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
I wonder having a Saturn in 3rd, Neptune in 6th and Mercury in 9th forming a "cross" with the 12th house (17' Gemini-17' Cancer) does to my tendency to sleep late as well get up late and a history of insomnia, sometimes I had many nights without sleep esp. between ages 10-33 (I'm 41 now, an Aquarius sun/ moon).
Osamenor
Staff member
I wondered if there was any serious astrology around that, so I did a quick google search. Doesn't look like it. The closest I've found is a few assertions that if you were born at night, you are a night owl. But that doesn't fly, in my experience. I'm more night owl than morning person (I can change that if I really have to, but it's much easier for me to make myself stay up late than get up early, if I have to do one or the other) and I was born in the daytime. My sister, who was born at night, is the opposite: she can get up early more easily than stay up late.
For insomnia, I think the first thing to look at is what's driving your insomnia. Were you unable to sleep because of racing thoughts? Did you tend to get wired tired? That kind of thing might be indicated by the mutable t-square you described, especially since it includes Mercury.
Did you by any chance have a progressed Mercury retrograde between the ages of 10 and 33? I note that the length of time that lasted matches how long a progressed Mercury retrograde would last.
Osamenor
Staff member
Saturn is the traditional ruler of sleep. Traditional astrology developed without modern planets, so each traditional planet got assigned something modern astrologers would give to one of the outers. Of the traditional planets, Saturn fits sleep the best: heaviness, immobility.
Saturn is also the traditional ruler of death. The similarity between sleep and death has long been noted.
And Saturn joys in the twelfth house. Which has a very Neptunian vibe in modern astrology. Either way, we've got a link between the twelfth house and sleep.
Seems to me that Saturn and Neptune cover different aspects of sleep. Neptune describes the subjective, internal experience: dreaming, getting out of day to day reality. Saturn describes the external appearance of someone sleeping: heavy, unmoving, silent.
Since this is the modern astrology forum, we're mostly looking at Neptune as the ruler of sleep here. Although, like with signs and houses, there's no reason a modern astrologer can't use both modern and traditional rulers.
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
I was born in the 14th hour or 2:20pm Pacific daylight time (Feb 15, 1980), the term progressed Mercury means starting from 13' Pisces (the planet's fall), it should moved to 23' Mercury at age 10 to 13' Aries at age 30 to now 24' Aries at age 41. Mercury was not at retrograde at the time of my birth, therefore I had insomnia from childhood and early adulthood stress, anxiety, depression, tensions and working outside in the desert summer heat. A triple conjunction of planets Mars, Jupiter and Saturn esp. in the sign of Virgo represents a lot of what you said: racing thoughts, wired tired and to easily get hyped up over things...these 3 planets were retrograde and could explain a lot, esp. involving Saturn.
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CapAquaPis
Well-known member
Anyone who has a retrograde Mercury in its fall: 13' Pisces, and if they are age 41, that planet would be in 22' Capricorn, a highly malefic degree worse than the previous or natal aspect. The degree of Mars is 27'-28' Capricorn, and a retrograde Mars I have should be in 28-29' Cancer by now. A retrograde saturn on my chart is in 14-15' Leo and for retrograde Jupiter is in 26-27' Cancer.
Osamenor
Staff member
You've proven my theory! Check this out: https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/mercury-retrograde-astrology-calendar-1980
In 1980, Mercury was retrograde from February 26th to March 19th. So you had Mercury retrograde by progression by the time you turned 11, which means that, adjusting for the exact time of the station and your time of birth, you were probably still 10 when your progressed Mercury retrograde began. Mercury stationed direct when you were 33 days old (in a leap year, it's exactly 33 days from February 15th to March 19th), so your progressed Mercury retrograde ended when you were 33 years old.
Mercury rules your twelfth house, and it's in t-square with both the modern ruler and the traditional ruler of sleep.
Osamenor
Staff member
But sleep itself appears to be twelfth, with both the Neptune and the Saturn connections. And here we have some data on it in CapAquaPis's experience: he had the most sleep trouble during the progressed retrograde of his twelfth house ruler. Not to say there weren't other factors involved, but the timing of it is one of those wow moments in astrology. Too perfect, just can't make it up!
Osamenor
Staff member
No it wouldn't. Mercury only moves 15 degrees during an entire retrograde period, and its retrogrades only last three weeks at a time. People born during Mercury retrograde have their progressed Mercury turn direct by their early twenties at the latest, and by then it's no more than 15 degrees earlier than their natal Mercury, if that.
If you're born during a Mercury retrograde in Pisces, there's no way your progressed Mercury will ever get to Capricorn. The farthest it can get is late Aquarius. By age 41, Mercury will have been direct by progression for at least 19-20 years, and it will probably be back in Pisces, if it ever left Pisces in the first place.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
Many Moons ago when studying with a reputable astro. organisation, I asked my mentor what the difference was between 9th and 12th house dreams. Her answer has always stayed with me.
Paraphrasing:
The 9th house 'dream' is actually a conscious ideal one would desire to see fulfilled and manifested (10th house) within one's lifetime.
The 12th house 'dream' falls under the realm of the unconscious and is intangible of nature.
I believe she was thinking in terms of the signs, the how, in Sagittarius and Pisces, over which Jupiter has (trad.) rulership.
Looking at any Saturn inference mentioned, the 9th house ideal is a visual possibility that can be physically grasped. Any 12th house 'dream' is not an ideal; it cannot be visually grasped. It invariably evaporates once entering physical consciousness.
Personally I don't see the 12th house as 'dream' or 'sleep'. It is a realm of experience and not a function. It does relate to the 'where' one leaves/escapes the physical world. Wouldn't the cuspal sign be influential in such a case?
In my learning through modern astrology Neptune, as ruler of 'the non-physical manifestational world' of Pisces, is strongly associated with the comatised state, the 'unconscious self' if you will. This includes the function of sleep. An insomniac often sees [transit] Neptune in harsh aspect to a natal planet (not seeing what's physically there?). A good sleeper can be 'dead to the world' of what's physically going on around him/her. Try as I will I cannot relate Saturn to this unconscious state. Its function is the essence and effect of pure physical manifestation through the sign it is in. To my mind, any release from such a state would have to come through the function of another planet in aspect to it, wouldn't it? Moon perhaps?
That said,
with Sun-Jupiter across 9th and 12th,
Saturn square Neptune,
Moon BQ Jupiter,
I could be said to be prejudiced.
