Ascendant and Appearance

Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
Re: Ascendant and Apppearance

Dourage, I think it's too hard to guess a rising sign to someone, specially when each one has many elements causing those characters (it's just a single element from another ones after all, isn't it?). If you're not Libra, and even seeing you could not be Gemini, perhaps I'd say an important influence between Pluto and Venus aims to you. Or else, Perhaps you're scorpio actually (because I perceive a fixed quality upon your open gestures). May a single grin help to perceive a strong influence? Let's get a personal theory about, shall we?


There's another one of mine (grinning to my way). If you like to go on with this "little game", guess, theorize and perceive a possible truth about it.


I still not convinced about physical archetypes into single beings. However, I do believe to planets and signs influence over gestures, expressions and an aware image (that's just a personal character, never the genetic one).

By the way, Kannon, regarding you've studied some of this (physical archetypes on physical appearance). What would you say about? May do exist a singular reason? May I (we) really follow the fixed archetype or any else?
004w053yPql.jpg

Sagittarius?
 

Hazard

Member
Can aspects from planets to the Ascendant give an indication of physical appearance, with no planets in the first house? This is something I haven't ever considered or thought about until now.
 

Astro-Intuitive

Well-known member
Originally Posted by Hazard
Can aspects from planets to the Ascendant give an indication of physical appearance, with no planets in the first house? This is something I haven't ever considered or thought about until now.

Very interesting thread.

Just want to point out that Kannon is correct in his conclusions (with respect to rising signs).

Assuming the horoscope has been tested and verified for 100% functionality, yes, the Ascendant ruler in another sign (and its aspects to other planets) does have an influence - although the ASC would predominate.

For example, someone with a Sagittarius ASC and Virgo Sun and who has Sag's rulers of Jupiter in Taurus and Neptune in Libra will be more soft spoken and not as fiery as with someone with a Leo Sun and Sag ASC (with Jupiter in Sag and Nep in Scorpio). One has to look at close and strong aspects (especially conjunctions, parallels and contraparallels) to the Sun, Moon, ASC and MC signs (and their opposite angles). One can really begin to gain insight into one's character from those most powerful aspects.

As to the general subject of the energy pertaining to the ASC and what contributes to an individual's physical looks and behavior, it is the ASC that ultimately predominates, then the Sun (the skeleton structure and one's inner leanings or direction of energy). However, if planets are parallel or conjunct the Ascendant, they will predominate right after the ASC. To be clear, they will add to but never replacement the fundamental characteristics of an Ascendant.

Take Pluto, for instance. When it is parallel or conjunct the ASC (again, in verified horoscope!), it not only adds sharper/more intense eyes but also causes an individual to be more energetic and possess almost super-human-like capabilities. This type of person can literally become a one-man/one-woman show, as their capabilities are limitless. They are also extremely powerful individuals that are never at a loss to solving problems and usually involved in multiple projects or intricate businesses. They might be susceptible to sinus or allergy problems, although not always. They would need to caution against overexertion since they can be nose-to-the-grindstone workers.

If the Sun is conjunct the ASC (whether in the 12th or 1st house... the focus of energy will be different), it increases the energy and physical body size of an individual and makes him or her highly individualistic. The person prefers to do things his or her own way. In certain cases where the Sun is parallel (a declination aspect) the ASC and the ASC is in a different sign, the individual is either highly focused on (or needs to focus on) being him or herself. This configuration is usually in the chart of an ultimately powerful person. Health susceptibilities can be to the back, spine, heart. If the ASC is in a water sign - with the Sun parallel same - it might lead to excessive sweating (from the Sun's heat). It depends on the combination of the Ascendant, planet and Sun sign. As well on the fact that the horoscope/ASC is actually correct (every one of them has to be verified; that means those based on physical birth times).

Regards,
Shaun
 

Hazard

Member
Very interesting thread.

Just want to point out that Kannon is correct in his conclusions (with respect to rising signs).

Assuming the horoscope has been tested and verified for 100% functionality, yes, the Ascendant ruler in another sign (and its aspects to other planets) does have an influence - although the ASC would predominate.

For example, someone with a Sagittarius ASC and Virgo Sun and who has Sag's rulers of Jupiter in Taurus and Neptune in Libra will be more soft spoken and not as fiery as with someone with a Leo Sun and Sag ASC (with Jupiter in Sag and Nep in Scorpio). One has to look at close and strong aspects (especially conjunctions, parallels and contraparallels) to the Sun, Moon, ASC and MC signs (and their opposite angles). One can really begin to gain insight into one's character from those most powerful aspects.

As to the general subject of the energy pertaining to the ASC and what contributes to an individual's physical looks and behavior, it is the ASC that ultimately predominates, then the Sun (the skeleton structure and one's inner leanings or direction of energy). However, if planets are parallel or conjunct the Ascendant, they will predominate right after the ASC. To be clear, they will add to but never replacement the fundamental characteristics of an Ascendant.

Take Pluto, for instance. When it is parallel or conjunct the ASC (again, in verified horoscope!), it not only adds sharper/more intense eyes but also causes an individual to be more energetic and possess almost super-human-like capabilities. This type of person can literally become a one-man/one-woman show, as their capabilities are limitless. They are also extremely powerful individuals that are never at a loss to solving problems and usually involved in multiple projects or intricate businesses. They might be susceptible to sinus or allergy problems, although not always. They would need to caution against overexertion since they can be nose-to-the-grindstone workers.

If the Sun is conjunct the ASC (whether in the 12th or 1st house... the focus of energy will be different), it increases the energy and physical body size of an individual and makes him or her highly individualistic. The person prefers to do things his or her own way. In certain cases where the Sun is parallel (a declination aspect) the ASC and the ASC is in a different sign, the individual is either highly focused on (or needs to focus on) being him or herself. This configuration is usually in the chart of an ultimately powerful person. Health susceptibilities can be to the back, spine, heart. If the ASC is in a water sign - with the Sun parallel same - it might lead to excessive sweating (from the Sun's heat). It depends on the combination of the Ascendant, planet and Sun sign. As well on the fact that the horoscope/ASC is actually correct (every one of them has to be verified; that means those based on physical birth times).

Regards,
Shaun

Good post. About parallels though, you mean Squares, Sextiles, and Trines? Do you think the Square would impact physical appearance negatively? Trines positively?
 

Hush10

Well-known member
The Saturn conj Asc reading this page are offended:biggrin: It's called "great bone structure", okaay?:biggrin:

Ah, I mean more of the horrifically cadaverous look. Bono, the frontman of U2, has a Capricorn Ascendant with Saturn in Capricorn conjunct it from the 12th House, and he has always managed to look like a normal guy. Same thing with Sean Connery - Capricorn Ascendant with Saturn in Capricorn conjunct it.

mackenzie-web.jpg

British actor Mackenzie Crook, who was in the British version of The Office and Pirates Of The Caribbean.

I don't know what his detailed astrology is (no birth time available), but whatever it is, I just think he would look tons better if he gained some weight.
 

Hush10

Well-known member
Hush10, some points of elaboration here using your excellent picture examples for Cancer and Leo rising...

I know this gets into some deeper stuff than just Asc and appearance, so I may repost it in the celebs thread.


Julia-Roberts_1.jpg

Julia Roberts. Not typical-looking for a Cancer rising person. That sign is probably correct, judging by her personality, but because the Moon is in Leo, she takes on more rectangular/fixed facial outline than normal for Cancer. Plus her sun sign is Scorpio, also fixed. A good clue is how rounded her chin is. Indicative more of the ovate/rounded Cardinal Asc signs.

steven20spielberg2011.jpg

Steven Spielberg Probably Cancer rising, but not-typical since the Moon is in the fixed sign of Scorpio, creating more rectangular outline.

john-travolta-portrait.jpg

John Travolta Leo or Taurus rising. Face too rectangular to be Cancer rising with Moon in Virgo. That would give his face definite tapering, which he does not have. A cuspy Asc at 29 Cancer requires it to be questioned and rectified by any serious astrologer.
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Judy+Garland.jpg

Judy Garland. Could have been Cancer or Gemini rising. I haven't worked with her chart. However, it looks like the 10CAN54 Asc is pretty close to correct. Notice the interceptions of signs in the 5th-11th. That is common to entertainers with a wide audience, particularly emphasizing this area of life, even when there are no planets present in either of those houses. This kind of interceptions in houses helps to validate an Asc sign in addition to physical qualities. The 5th-11th interceptions of signs are the most common for entertainers and actors, though not a requirement to be one.
forgive the junky chart...
Judy_Garland.png


richard-branson-jj3.jpg

Richard Branson (with Pluto also conjunct his AC). This is an excellent example that affirms Donald Trump, as I point out below. Plutonian-Leo Asc with interception of signs in 4th-10th. These types (strong, powerful Asc + 4th-10th sign interceptions) are empire builders.
RBranson.jpg



Donald Trump. Classic example of a Plutonian Leonine. His chart almost certainly needs to be adjusted back to the early-mid area of Leo, putting Pluto conjunct Asc in 1st (retaining Mars in 1st) and an interception of signs in the 4th-10th. Since I don't track his life I've not done his chart myself, but this is a pretty reasonable assessment off the cuff based on watching the Apprentice show and observing him in the media. (I wrote these comments in reverse order before even looking at Branson's chart above).
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CelineDion.jpg

Celine Dion- She could be Cancer or Gemini rising but not Leo. Face too slim/tapering/longish, not nearly rectangular enough for a fixed sign.Again, a cuspy Asc at 2 Leo (from a birthtime "from memory") should be verified astrologically rather than assumed correct. A late Gemini chart is posssible since it also includes an interception in the 5th-11th with a heavy focus of planets in the 11th. An early-mid Cancer Asc is also possible, since it creates an interception in the 5th-11th + a heavy planet focus in the 10th house of career. Most likely Cancer rising. Moon in Aries gives more the logish/ovate facial outline.

kate_hudson3.jpg

Kate Hudson. Not the best example of Cancer rising, if she is at all. I'd say very early Leo is much more likely (with late Taurus a vague possibility).

Yeah, she wouldn't be the best example of Cancer rising, if at all, seeing as I never said she had/has Cancer Rising. I said she has LEO RISING.

First I listed the Cancer Rising celebs, followed by the Leo Rising ones.

Her face has a soft squarish outline that cannot be justifed by the Moon's position, being ruler of Cancer. Her Moon is in Capricorn, which would further emphasize roundness. I see no other factors that could verify a Cancer rising chart for her. She has radiant beauty that lends itself to consideration of a Jupiter-Leo Asc (Jupiter in 12th). A chart set at about 1 Leo creates the sign interception in the 5th-11th so common to actors and entertainers and puts Pluto closely opp her MC.

In any case, the Asc sign is aligns more with the overall energy of the person, not just the outward appearance. Some astrologers are prone to speaking of the Asc as "mask," as if it were merely a costume for someone putting on. The Asc is the humanizing or embodying of the energy/spirit, but the Sun and position of Asc ruler must be taken into account. Its not as easy most of the time as we'd like, in matching up Asc with outward appearance, but there are some principles that do work when wholistically applied. It all comes down to energy. But I work from outlines related to sign quality. It allows me to correct charts (40% of the time are in a incorrect Asc sign), and sometimes positively identify the sign quality based on facial outline alone, but I always verify with transits, etc.

Peace
Kannon

Birth times have been obtained by the researchers at Astrodatabank for all of the above people. Some of the birth times even have Rodden Ratings of AA - namely those of Steven Spielberg, Judy Garland, Kate Hudson, Julia Roberts, and John Travolta.

Julia Roberts

Steven Spielberg

John Travolta

Judy Garland

Richard Branson

Donald Trump

Celine Dion

Kate Hudson


Of course there will be modifying influences in a birth chart that will alter the expression and appearance of an Ascendant. Not to mention plain, old genetics, upbringing, lifestyle, health, and any cosmetic procedures.

But you may as well be swatting a wasp with a feather by speculating endlessly about ascendants and such-and-such a feature not tying in with the rules of some vague, one-size-fits-all, astrological face-reading stuff, etc, when the birth certificate clearly states people's birth times. Sure, the birth time may be out - give or take - by a few minutes at the very most, but a birth time documented by hospital staff is better than a mother's vague memory or just a guess.
 
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Astro-Intuitive

Well-known member
Hi Hazard,

Parallels aspects (also referred to as declinations) differ from longitude aspects (i.e., from those that can be seen in the horoscope wheel) in the sense that they do not result in mathematical angles that constantly come into and separate apart (leading to various changes of vibration) as planets along the ecliptic plane (around the Sun) do but rather are aligned with (or parallel) the earth's equator, north or south. Hence, they cannot be observed directly in the horoscope wheel but must be tabulated.

If you go to http://www.astro.com and to Extended Chart Selection, you should be able to observe your declination planets by clicking on the PDF link to your right. Declination aspects, unfortunately, are not used as often as those longitude (which would include the conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, etc.) even though they should, because they not only fill in missing gaps that add greater understanding to planetary positions in a horoscope but also are the strongest of all aspects (equal to the conjunction in power). You can find out more about the nature of these aspects on my website: http://www.soul-map.com/numerological_significance_aspect_formation.html

As to planetary aspects to the ASC - remember: the ASC represents the physical and mental body and its undertakings in a material world. Therefore aspects to same would show activities that contribute to the physical and mental growth and well-being of the individual. Trine aspects can indicate good activities for one's personal interests, hobbies, and undertakings according to the house and sign in which that planet is posited. Squares to the ASC will also be square to the DSC and are usually in the horoscopes of people with strong characters. The primary axis (or T-square) focuses upon relationships and potential challenges that must be overcome but can also indicate health susceptibilities to the physical body (and hence serve as warnings).

Hope this helps.


Hush10,

The guy below (British actor Mackenzie Crook) in the photo could have Capricorn rising (the ears stick out prominently), but I will go ahead and say he either has Virgo or Pisces rising (more Virgo than Pisces) (these mutable rising signs have triangular-shaped faces).
 

MerDesRoses

Member
Merdesroses,

It is really hard to guess in general, but you are right, it does not really make a difference. Also, it's not a full on smile, and not a pic from the front :). I make one last guess, Pisces or Gemini? If I stick to the longish face being mutable, you'd have to have a mutable rising sign, or a ruling planet in Mutable?

It is too hard, though.

Dourage, I think it is. But, in some way it has sense. Your intuition, as the theory of few ones who suggested some risign signs or some prominent influences on myself got some reason. In instance, Mike did mention about a strong Leo pressence. It would be too curious to myself, but thinking it well it got consequence cos, as I said to him before, my ruler chart is in conjunction with the sun, and this one is in 10th also (my social image or external appearance), but it wasn't Leo risign after all. You told me some of Scorpio or Taurus risign before, but when you saw my little smile (to what I have to say is my natural one), you changed your judgement suspecting about Gemini and Pisces as Mutable physical archetype. Well, it was near, cos I have my Gemini stellium between 9th and 10th, and my ruler astral body is in Gemini also.
So, it does so sense.

My rising sign is Virgo fairly (a virgo with a taurian decanate). So, in that case, Taurus got a starring about it too. About Scorpio, it does (I've been told many times my physical aspect is alike scorpian archetype at first sight for some reason), has a reason to be; the sun in 10th is in trine with Pluto, and Pluto is in 2nd (what I have, in this sense the appearance is participation of what we have as resource also). It's curious, but with this I've realized those physical traits are only based on image what we want to show to others (10th) to ourselves also (1st), and even what is our capital resource (2nd), but never, as I said before, they depend of planets absolutely. I think the genetical science got a very place on this as beginning.

P.S: Dourage, are you sure you have not a notable Scorpio influence?

Vagabondgirl, Sagittarius is one I never thought about myself. However, I know my dominant sign is ruled by Uranus, to whom is in Sagittarius with a Leo decanate. But that's another theme, perhaps (taking awareness this side is the general character in instance the terrestrial one)
 
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dourage

Well-known member
Re: Ascendant and Apppearance

Dear MerdesRoses, could I see your chart? Just to test my intuitions. |Also:

Hi Kannon,

I am a Virgo with a Gemini Moon and Scorpio Asc. Pluto is conjunct, but just in the 12th house. Anyway I'll post my chart and a last picture. Does it make sense to you? Or do you still think my chart should be corrected?

P.s. The transits in the chart are old.

You might have missed my post before, my rising sign is indeed Scorpio. Why do you speak of a Scorpio influence all of a sudden? I thought you were more convinced of the Libra :).
 
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MerDesRoses

Member
Re: Ascendant and Apppearance

Dear MerdesRoses, could I see your chart? Just to test my intuitions. |Also:



You might have missed my post before, my rising sign is indeed Scorpio. Why do you speak of a Scorpio influence all of a sudden? I thought you were more convinced of the Libra :).

I thought about Libra cos it has Scorpio and 2nd often. In that sense, the 2nd one is what we have (the appearance enters into, of course). So, I thought of that, taking awareness about your open gestures (aye, I insist). But I missed this comment of yours before.

Later I thought about Scorpio for a 2nd Sagittarius house (probably). So, that may explain some of your determined and self-confident appearance.

It would be interesting to take a glance at your natal chart to watch more reasons about.

P.S: sure, I may send my chart to you some time
 

Aruilly

Well-known member
I was thinking, ummm, sorry if it may seem a noob thinking, but wouldn't venus and mars also count for saying how a person looks like? Also a trine or sextile could modify the ASC if the orbs are tight enough?

Just a noob question :pouty:
 

dourage

Well-known member
Re: Ascendant and Apppearance

I thought about Libra cos it has Scorpio and 2nd often. In that sense, the 2nd one is what we have (the appearance enters into, of course). So, I thought of that, taking awareness about your open gestures (aye, I insist). But I missed this comment of yours before.

Later I thought about Scorpio for a 2nd Sagittarius house (probably). So, that may explain some of your determined and self-confident appearance.

It would be interesting to take a glance at your natal chart to watch more reasons about.

P.S: sure, I may send my chart to you some time

Hi Merdesroses, if you would like to see my chart, I posted it in the post you missed earlier. Curious as to what you think.

On a whole other level, I live in the Netherlands and we have elections 9th of June. There is a famous politician in our country, feared, hated and loved, whom everybody talks about because he's characterized as saying shocking things and alienating religious people with his outings that the Islam is a crazy religion. Anyway, I am curious as to what you people would think his rising sign is. This Dutch astrologer says Leo. I will post his picture and his chart without birth time, please let me know what you think.
 

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Kannon

Well-known member
Ah, I mean more of the horrifically cadaverous look. Bono, the frontman of U2, has a Capricorn Ascendant with Saturn in Capricorn conjunct it from the 12th House, and he has always managed to look like a normal guy. Same thing with Sean Connery - Capricorn Ascendant with Saturn in Capricorn conjunct it.

mackenzie-web.jpg

British actor Mackenzie Crook, who was in the British version of The Office and Pirates Of The Caribbean.

I don't know what his detailed astrology is (no birth time available), but whatever it is, I just think he would look tons better if he gained some weight.

This guy most likely has a Virgo or Capricorn Asc. The straight pointed nose and blunt chin favor Virgo. If his birth time says Libra, then it is obviously actually Virgo for him. It could be Pisces or Aries if the chart has modifications to the Asc/1st, and for mutability, but doubt the Aries, and Pisces is normally softer, but it is still possible. The bony skeletal look is suggestive of Saturnine or martial factors.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
Yeah, she wouldn't be the best example of Cancer rising, if at all, seeing as I never said she had/has Cancer Rising. I said she has LEO RISING.

First I listed the Cancer Rising celebs, followed by the Leo Rising ones.



Birth times have been obtained by the researchers at Astrodatabank for all of the above people. Some of the birth times even have Rodden Ratings of AA - namely those of Steven Spielberg, Judy Garland, Kate Hudson, Julia Roberts, and John Travolta.

Julia Roberts

Steven Spielberg

John Travolta

Judy Garland

Richard Branson

Donald Trump

Celine Dion

Kate Hudson


Of course there will be modifying influences in a birth chart that will alter the expression and appearance of an Ascendant. Not to mention plain, old genetics, upbringing, lifestyle, health, and any cosmetic procedures.

But you may as well be swatting a wasp with a feather by speculating endlessly about ascendants and such-and-such a feature not tying in with the rules of some vague, one-size-fits-all, astrological face-reading stuff, etc, when the birth certificate clearly states people's birth times. Sure, the birth time may be out - give or take - by a few minutes at the very most, but a birth time documented by hospital staff is better than a mother's vague memory or just a guess.

Hush10,

The birth time data you cited from astrodatabank shows a Cancer rising chart for Kate Hudson, NOT LEO. I don't take it literally. If you see her as Cancer rising, then obviously you don't take birth times too literally either and are adjusting her Asc based on your own understanding of rising signs.

I learned not to take birth times literally once I began advanced methods of astrology. Recorded birth times are only starting places for a verified, accurate horoscope. Rounded times from memory (as with David Bowie), especially if the mother is dead (as with Bono) cannot be taken but with a grain of salt, or at least as what they are - rounded figures.

The first breath theory, while a good theory, does not produce consistent reliable results for identifying the correct Asc sign and degree, especially when working with rounded, even hour birth times. According to John Willner about half the horoscopes set by recorded birth time do not show the correct sign on the Asc that matches all requirements for physical attributes, personality, and reliable results when used for progressions, etc.

The Ascendant sets the outward face to the world through the principle of Mars/Aries = head. Facial structure follows the horoscope. There are ways to verify what actually is the correct sign, rather than just speculate based on zodiacal stereotypes, which most here have done.

What you have done, as many astrologers have presumptuously done, is to put a human theory, sound as it may seem, over the cosmic principles of the astrological language. The astrological language is consistent with genetics, and cooperative with, not separate from it. If the appearance, personality, any house interceptions and verifying transits/progressions point to an Asc in Sagittarius (say for David Bowie) instead of in Aquarius, then the correct Asc is in Sagittarius. (His correct Asc sign is almost certainly Sagittarius, as he has the slender/tapering head of a mutable sign with mixed eye color common to many Sag types). Again, the birth time is just a starting place, and, while I trust that Bowie's recorded birth time (or any other from a hospital or family record) is reasonably accurate, the physiological indicators, especially of the head/face point not to Aqua, but a Sag Asc.

You may not have such verifying tools, but it doesn't mean they are purely speculative on my part. They are descriptions of variables as I have seen them play out, and as taught by Master Astrologers like John Willner. This is advanced astrology and it must be learned by observation and intuition development and plenty of in-depth chart work.
 
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Beulah

Well-known member
Would anyone like to guess my Sun, Moon, and/or Asc.? :biggrin:
 

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