Apparent Sociopath (Goat/Gemini) with schizophrenia in her family

Aeryn

Well-known member
QuaternityEagle and Jucy, I love that you revived this thread. Thank you. With some distance I believe I can describe her actions more objectively. And I think you raised very interesting points!

My friends and I concluded that she is a con-artist with a conscience. She doesn't seem to see any other way to operate and survive. Her body language shows that she constantly feels hunted, fears to be found out, and considering how she operates it's no surprise.

She was fully aware that what she was doing was hurtful to those loyal to her. She did feel bad, but coldly decided that it was what needed to be done.

She did not have the strength or integrity to simply be honest about the situation. Had she been honest, we would have worked with her and supported her. But:

She is deeply insecure, which is why she can't show weakness. Instead she'll try to convince everyone of another reality. Then she gets lost in a web of misrepresentations, indeed forgetting what she said the day before. Her reality changed every day.

She is easily hurt, highly emotional at all times, which causes her to lose reason. And when she gets overwhelmed she takes her heart out of the decision out of a short-sighted need for self preservation.

Her emotions are always out of control and she is definitely impulsive. She operates on emotion and lacks the ability to see the big picture/future. Patching things up rather than dealing with underlying problems, resulting in her having to do it all over again. And again.

I do believe she craves attention. She loves and surrounds herself with creative people and acts like a mother to her students. She is a bad business person, but runs an acting school, bribing officials to keep it going, and she also coaches child actors. Her coaching style is very formulaic, following particular rules. She also had strict rules for dating.

I know she had a messy childhood. I don't know how she got tangled up in this way of operating. After many years of being a real ***** (she herself admitted doing horrible things, playing with people's hearts and enjoying the power she had over them) she now wants to do it right but doesn't know how. She recently had a baby. I hope that this will give her what she's looking for.

Interesting with the Moon/Aquarius! I recently looked at my cousin's chart. I perceive her as... really uncomfortable. She clearly loves people, but that doesn't stop her from manipulating them to doing her bidding. It's creepy. She has Moon in Aquarius, opposing Venus in Leo. I'll post her chart if you're interested. (Grand cross if you include Chiron!)
 

sandstone

Banned
i haven't read all the posts fwiw..

in answer to your friends lack of empathy and family connections to schizophrenia i would point out uranus conjunct the i.c. angle.. the i.c. represents our basic foundation along with our personal family history... uranus directly squares onto the sun which is in the 12th - a house associated with more serious illness.. the 12th has gemini on the cusp so a mental health issue is always possible.. the 12th house ruler mercury is in rough shape squaring onto the mars/saturn opposition and forming a t square all conspiring to dovetail with your concerns..
 

Aeryn

Well-known member
Ooh! Sandstone! Yes. I agree.

Since I've learned quite a bit myself in the last year here's a few interpretation points of my own (please let me know if I get something wrong):

Sun in 12th: Her soul / light source is shrouded. Acquiring a sense of self-worth is a task.
Uranus conjunct her IC: Her private self, her vulnerable core is subject to turbulence and frequent changes. Instability. In square to her sun in the 12th enhances this theme.
Pluto also conjunct IC, square sun: Maybe the result why she feels so powerless, thereby taking measures she otherwise wouldn't - believing she won't survive if she doesn't. In her mind she has no other choice.
IC/Pluto/Uranus sextile Neptune: She likes to reinvent herself and is full of dreams and hopes.
Moon (Leo, 3rd) trine sun, square Neptune: Moon is busy with her sense of self, finding a way of expressing and communicating herself, but her understanding of how or what she's doing is clouded. Mercury in 12th can't help this.

Saturn in 10th/Aries: Even though she's highly emotional and really bad with anything logical/organisational, she manages to run her business (with many shortcuts and bribes, but she does manage it.) She has lots of energy for it and is very disciplined. I don't have my own opinion on the opposition with Mars, but I can say that her business is truly a part of her and not just a job. For a while she even lived in her school.
 

QuaternityEagle

Well-known member
QuaternityEagle and Jucy, I love that you revived this thread. Thank you. With some distance I believe I can describe her actions more objectively. And I think you raised very interesting points!

My friends and I concluded that she is a con-artist with a conscience. She doesn't seem to see any other way to operate and survive. Her body language shows that she constantly feels hunted, fears to be found out, and considering how she operates it's no surprise.

She was fully aware that what she was doing was hurtful to those loyal to her. She did feel bad, but coldly decided that it was what needed to be done.

She did not have the strength or integrity to simply be honest about the situation. Had she been honest, we would have worked with her and supported her. But:

She is deeply insecure, which is why she can't show weakness. Instead she'll try to convince everyone of another reality. Then she gets lost in a web of misrepresentations, indeed forgetting what she said the day before. Her reality changed every day.

She is easily hurt, highly emotional at all times, which causes her to lose reason. And when she gets overwhelmed she takes her heart out of the decision out of a short-sighted need for self preservation.

Her emotions are always out of control and she is definitely impulsive. She operates on emotion and lacks the ability to see the big picture/future. Patching things up rather than dealing with underlying problems, resulting in her having to do it all over again. And again.

I do believe she craves attention. She loves and surrounds herself with creative people and acts like a mother to her students. She is a bad business person, but runs an acting school, bribing officials to keep it going, and she also coaches child actors. Her coaching style is very formulaic, following particular rules. She also had strict rules for dating.

I know she had a messy childhood. I don't know how she got tangled up in this way of operating. After many years of being a real ***** (she herself admitted doing horrible things, playing with people's hearts and enjoying the power she had over them) she now wants to do it right but doesn't know how. She recently had a baby. I hope that this will give her what she's looking for.

Interesting with the Moon/Aquarius! I recently looked at my cousin's chart. I perceive her as... really uncomfortable. She clearly loves people, but that doesn't stop her from manipulating them to doing her bidding. It's creepy. She has Moon in Aquarius, opposing Venus in Leo. I'll post her chart if you're interested. (Grand cross if you include Chiron!)

Well I'm just going to start off by saying in no way could I make a diagnose of a personality disorder (don't we all have one LOL), from a chart, but it definitely seems like your friend here has issues, and you have a right for concern, and the grievances with her behaviors from any and all parties well-founded. Those with borderline struggle from feeling invalidated, usually from an early age, so it does not surprise me that you mentioned a "messy" childhood, probably bad boundaries of some kind. This is some of how the UK defines Borderline Personality Disorder:

"having emotions that are up and down (for example, feeling confident one day and feeling despair another), with feelings of emptiness and often anger... difficulty in making and maintaining relationships [idealizing then hating someone for a small, perhaps imagined slight]... having an unstable sense of identity, such as thinking differently about yourself depending on who you are with [probably makes it easy to manipulate but also be manipulated]... [impulsiveness... intense fear of being alone, rejected, issues of abandonment]...sometimes believing in things that are not real or true (called delusions) or seeing or hearing things that are not really there (called hallucinations)."

From: http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/borderline_personality_disorder#What is


But I'm not a doctor, just an astrologer :eek: so I wouldn't start thinking she has this, I just didn't think it sounded like schizophrenia or sociopathology, though as you can probably see in borderline there are similar elements. It makes you wonder how long it took people to sort out personality disorders and make distinctions!

This power thing she has going on is interesting. I might imagine she just doesn't recognize the long-term consequences of her actions/refuses to, while simultaneously living ina very "black and white world" full of immediate consequence for those around her and herself unless she or they do what she deeems is most emotionally gratifying, and thus also logical. Its an itneresting paradox, and I'm not surprised to find an Aquarius presence, if only because (and no offense to Aquarians of any kind with any placements) being a fixed air sign they do want black and white, but also strive for objectivity, and finding the balance is difficult. They are the water bearers and they have to watch to not poor the water out too fast, drop the water inappropriately, nor disregard the need for water and keep it to t hemselves... that is why they are the humanitarians. Everyone needs waters, and the bear that recognition. Sometimes it might be too much for someone with Aquarian energy, or they may retreat, recoil, intellectualize (cold rationalization you've described of her), and certainly that feeling of "hot and cold."

You could post her chart... but you might want to check in and see if that's ok with her. I would imagine there are rules for that here too if I rememebr correctly.

I was once "spurned" by a firned with borderline who also abused alcohol. She didn't really spurn me just up and left to go be with some guy who she had just met, and had just spent the last weekend we ever had together as friends complaining about him and some comment he made which I didn't think was so bad, but that's all borderline behavior unfortunately. Then she got mad at me for questioning if he was the right guy for her because he seemed to have upset her so much with some comment (that was not even remotely related to her form what I could see) and so I backed off. It's a weird cycle of distortions. I did really love being her friend though. Once borderlines heal they make lovely friends, and I saw that in ehr. SO much fun and so free. Also having the baby could help per se... but I have heard therapy and being in a long-term stable romantic relationship are the best "cures". She was a Pisces with a Capricorn moon.
 
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Claire19

Well-known member
Her Sun from the 12th of neuroses, illness and weakness is squaring her Pluto Uranus in the 3rd of communications, school days and adolescence.

Her Mercury from the 12th squares Mars and Saturn in the 4th and 10th of home, heredity, family, parents and authorities. Usually these conditions are inherited in some way.

She is mentally ill but I thought sociopaths had no empathy and you say she is full of love???? We cannot make a diagnosis here in a forum but she has mental problems for sure and for certain. It is the heaviest chart I have seen in a long while dealing with mental issues. .
 
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Claire19

Well-known member
Dear Aeryn:

I'm a little confused as to the question of this topic: Did you ask if your friend may be schizophrenic or a sociopath? God knows I am not collage educated in the area of abnormal psych. but I am a reader and I've never thought the two were related. Schizophrenia is a largely genetic condition due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. There are arguements by professionals re: nature/nurture. It's my understanding that sociopaths more likely resemble the 'Hannible Lectors' of the world. You said deep down your friend was kind hearted. Sounds like shes the victim of an unfortunate Mercury and other aspects.

I don't mean to butt-in this interesting thread, I think your friend is lucky she has you. I just wanted to be clear on what you meant.

Thanks, Serafin5:joyful:
Sociopaths have no empathy and the poster says the chart subject is full of love??? It all sounds contradictory. Mental issues are for doctors to diagnose, not those on a forum.
 

QuaternityEagle

Well-known member
Sociopaths have no empathy and the poster says the chart subject is full of love??? It all sounds contradictory. Mental issues are for doctors to diagnose, not those on a forum.

I don't disagree Claire, particularly about the part about definitive diagnosis and the proper professional being the one to do it. It is difficult ehtically as astrologers to provide resource in this area, as we have access to an abundance of information, but we did not design the system which labels people as "sociopath" or "borderline," so how can we justifiably integrate the two without also being psychiatrists/psychologists.

that said, it is an interesting thing, investigating charts and discovering clues that may help with teh resolve of a situation, including those with mental illness.

This also is a support thread for Aeryn I might imagine, since she started it and all. I'm speaking only for myself of course but my experience has been that when people ask about illness, particularly mental illness and others, and seek spiritual pths, like astrology, for answers, they do have self-protective but also compassionate ideas in mind, I would hope.

Anyway, Sun in the 12th house can preclude issues with childhood, at least hvaing to swallow or hide one's own feelings, or being overwhelmed by one's own feelings. Aastrology certainly as you pointed out, can point to psychological issues if read that way. I guess the biggest concern is not be used a either a definitive diagnosis or an indictment. I always worry about discussing mental illness and aastrology because the two aren't always so nicely blendable.

We should all be realy careful at least I would thik when it comes to the power astrology has, especially since we all believe/practice it to a greater or lesser extent. At the same time, its a point of education, so why not use it? It can open our awareness...

I hope the OP does not use anything which is written here to declare openly her friend as something... but maybe it will help her understand her friend better? A very sticky situation.... i gues the question is, who are we to judge?
 

QuaternityEagle

Well-known member
life is contradictory.. better get used to it......aeryn has the best of intentions - that seems obvious to me..

well I don;t know if thi was directed at me, but yes I agree Aeryn has the best of intentions... I guess I was just musing philosophically. About the contradictions though... itwould seem to me contradictory to be sociopathic and full of love, but then again, it depends on the kind of love... there was Charles Manson...:eek::eek: but this person is nothing like him... oh jeez! Sounds like someone Aeryn really cares about who as confusing, complex, and harmful behaviors. I tossed out the idea of "borderline" quotes very much intended ecause of these contrdictions. This pattern from what I understand would be similar to a borderline personality disorder.
 

sandstone

Banned
not directed at anyone q-e - well maybe claire a little bit.. i think contradictory is a part of the description of sociopaths - they may seem like the ordinary person down the block until you find out afterwards.. not to dwell on the nature of sociopathy either as all i am doing here is learning how to understand the role of astrology and how it connects to a chart with a description given however accurate or not it is.. mostly i see the forum as a learning area for those interested in astrology to expand there understanding through sharing knowledge or insights with others.

as the note at the top says : a definitive diagnosis in current medical terms should never be stated by an astrologer.
 

QuaternityEagle

Well-known member
not directed at anyone q-e - well maybe claire a little bit.. i think contradictory is a part of the description of sociopaths - they may seem like the ordinary person down the block until you find out afterwards.. not to dwell on the nature of sociopathy either as all i am doing here is learning how to understand the role of astrology and how it connects to a chart with a description given however accurate or not it is.. mostly i see the forum as a learning area for those interested in astrology to expand there understanding through sharing knowledge or insights with others.

as the note at the top says : a definitive diagnosis in current medical terms should never be stated by an astrologer.

Yeah I hear you about definitive diagnosis... was talking about that in my previous post. We can certainly speculate, but that's at most what we can do, and learn from one another's speculations. I guess with that said I should post, from an astro pov why I would speculate how to characterize someone's behaviors with a psychological label, and then the discussions can just be about why people think what they do, knowing full well we are in no position to be like, "this is this person, and this is what they have." I guess its just shakey territory, but then aagin, I know I wasn't making a diagnosis... I'll post my aastro insights soon, like what aspects I would think would make for a potential for a personality disorder.... all speculative of course. Besides, diagnosis are made to figure out to heal the person, so trying to read a chart and find a label kind of works against that process. Maybe it would be best to be like, "these aspects can indicate these behaviors, and may present psychological issues, for example... or no example." I'm with you on the learning piece... that's why I joined this thread. Astrology and Psychology are a potent blend, that is for sure.
 

Aeryn

Well-known member
Hi everybody!

Of course I'm not going to go tell her or anyone else of our theories here. I posted the initial question mainly out of the desire to understand how all of this could happen. In part I guess also to reassure myself that I didn't do anything wrong. (Complicated.)

In addition my interest lies in an astrological case study. This is a great way for me to learn, which I guess is why most of us are here. You're questioning of my initial statements is welcome and makes me get more specific and re-evaluate, which I appreciate greatly.

I don't care to categorize her behaviour. Just understand it and the astrology behind it. I don't even believe in such categories. But communication is more efficient if you have names for a group of conditions. So bearing in mind that we're not making diagnoses, but simply exchanging theories, then this kind of thread is gold.

Regarding the "She lacks empathy. She is full of love." contradiction:
Her ability to feel is immense and apparent, but her ability to relate is limited. She is egocentric, not selfish. She has repeatedly proven to be oblivious to other people's pain and how her actions affect other people. When she tries to understand people it is an intellectual exercise. She does try, and I see her passion for actors of all people as an instinctual attempt to find that balance. But she has known for a long time that acting itself is not for her.

But as aforementioned she also has trouble grasping the big picture of a situation so this intellectual exercise of analysing people tends to fail her, too. She can't connect the dots and was always fascinated by my ability to do so. Her learning difficulties with logical exercises (computers, organization, finances,...) and understanding people when making decisions were apparent when working with her and at times she was embarrassed. It was hard work for me to teach her something without triggering a fight or flight response.

I also think that Moon and Venus (as well as Jupiter) in egocentric Leo opposite humanitarian Aquarius, and NN in 11th (SN/comfort zone in 5th) also suggest and confirm that this is her particular challenge. Mercury in 12th and water AC and MC sound to me like the universe is telling her to stop thinking and start feeling! And she does! excessively.

Considering what she did when young she has clearly already come a long way and hopefully the new responsibility with the baby will help her, too.
 
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sandstone

Banned
q- eagle - thanks for sharing! i like the saying 'the reading is only as good as the astrologer'.. a lot of astrology is learning how to pull all the different parts together in some meaningful manner.. without interaction with the person, it is really all speculation!

aeryn - the moon is actually very important to this chart as it is the ascendant ruler.. it is essentially void of course in leo a sign known more for drama but not so much for introspection or deeper self understanding. in this regard moon in leos can be a lot of fun to be around and are often warm hearted, reflecting the sunshine and warmth this sign is known for..

aside from the fact the moon doesn't really connect with any other planet in an applying manner by aspect, the chart is really eastern hemisphere emphasized, which pushes to the forefront the more ego centric qualities of the chart.. the 'me first' saturn in aries as most elevated planet is driving this chart to an extent as well and is also being influenced to an extent by mars in the 4th in detriment which squares onto the ascendant..

the sun in 12th squared onto the pluto/uranus doesn't help.. it would add a crazed nervous and potentially manipulative vibe as well! tough chart in some ways, but probably one where she could be quite charming at the same time! those leo planets are capable of turning on the charm, and to sum up - moon as ruler of the ascendant does play an important role to her chart, even if void of course and disconnected in some obvious ways..
 
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QuaternityEagle

Well-known member
q- eagle - thanks for sharing! i like the saying 'the reading is only as good as the astrologer'.. a lot of astrology is learning how to pull all the different parts together in some meaningful manner.. without interaction with the person, it is really all speculation!

Thanks sandstone! I'm really a proponent of not using medical diagnosis with astrology because both came from two different places, but understanding the correspondence is worth its weight in gold.


To me its the opposition between the Saturn and Mars, both squaring Mercury, that most acutely addresses the issue. Poor impulsive-control, outrageous thoughts, and intense need for privacy (highlighted by the Sun square Pluto) that simultaneously acts like a wall between her and other people, and yet also makes it obvious there is a "good kind person" underneath it all...

I'd tentatively say that if this person is someone you (Aeryn) want to keep around and matters to you, then you're going to have to accept, at the very least, her behaviors will often be irrational, and she often won't care- Sun square Uranus, conjunct Pluto, that also then sextiles the above mentioned Mercury and Neptune... so she really does not recognize her behaviors are "out of sync." If all of what you say about her is true moreover, to me the best step for is psychotherapy, especially since you pointed out the childhood stuff. But will she go? Sun square PLuto can be self-sabotaging but also keen to transformation... is she spiritual at all?

Who is thisperson to you?

Also coud you try posting the chart in equal house... would make it easier for me in some respects if you don't mind...
 
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Claire19

Well-known member
i haven't read all the posts fwiw..

in answer to your friends lack of empathy and family connections to schizophrenia i would point out uranus conjunct the i.c. angle.. the i.c. represents our basic foundation along with our personal family history... uranus directly squares onto the sun which is in the 12th - a house associated with more serious illness.. the 12th has gemini on the cusp so a mental health issue is always possible.. the 12th house ruler mercury is in rough shape squaring onto the mars/saturn opposition and forming a t square all conspiring to dovetail with your concerns..
I agree and Mercury in challenging aspect to Uranus is a hallmark for mental instability. Sometimes they are very bright also. The 12th house deals with illusions, delusions and being vulnerable to the lower entities and seeing them and hearing voices etc. Often they see God or want to be with Him and can be quite fanatical.
 

Aeryn

Well-known member
We no longer have contact but as and when I return to Vancouver our paths will probably cross again and I can imagine working with her again.

She was my boss and she had rules about keeping a certain distance because of that, but we were more like friends, like family. I always accepted her the way she is and would again, unlike some others. Though id never put myself into a situation where she has control over me.

I could never tell her full on what I thought about some of her decisions because I was afraid she'd rid herself of me and I had no other job options due to visa issues. I was basically her seriously underpaid waged slave, but I was okay with that because I love her as a person. Eventually I had to say something, she felt betrayed and imagined all sorts of ridiculous schemes I wad supposedly up to, and that was that. She fired me, not even allowing me to explain myself, fully knowing that that would probably mean I'd have to leave the country. It was her power play.

She grew up in a strict traditional religious clan, but broke out of it. I do think she is spiritual and she did seek psycho therapy and learned she had serious abandonment issues. Eventually her therapist told her she shouldn't come back because she didn't need it anymore. Clearly her friends and therapist never see the side of her, that those of us saw who worked for her and were to some degree dependent on her. They supported her. She also avoids conflict, but when she can't escape it anymore she explodes.

Equal house and whole sign charts attached.
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I know she has it in her family and is worried about it. It may even have been her mother, which of course also suggests environmental factors.
Schizophrenia is a largely genetic condition due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. There are arguements by professionals re: nature/nurture. It's my understanding that sociopaths more likely resemble the 'Hannible Lectors' of the world. is lucky she has you...

A Documentary on Psychiatry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qs9TLTvYFs&feature=related:smile:



Sociopaths have no empathy and the poster says the chart subject is full of love??? It all sounds contradictory. Mental issues are for doctors to diagnose, not those on a forum.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you! I will watch that asap. I do think that most of the time what we call "abnormal behaviour" is actually perfectly normal behaviour in response to abnormal living conditions. Only we are not taught to question the latter and then look to fix the behaviour without fixing the cause for it.
Exactly - IMO that's a good point, well made Aeryn!

It seems that 'Fixing behavior with a magic pill' is widely accepted and it is a matter for serious concern that - due to clever marketing/advertising - many do not question how pills with horrendous side-effects can be of any possible value to anyone other than those who yearly make billions of dollars of profits from their sale! Another video goes into more detail at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDlH9sV0lHU&feature=related:smile:
 
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