An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

dr. farr

Well-known member
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?


Old time astrology (13th century and earlier) particularly Islamic astrology, followed the doctrine called "benefaction" (also called "recovery" and "pleasantness") in which, if planet A is dignified and planet B is debilitated (essentially dignified or essentially debilitated, although it can apply also, to some extent, to a rescue from accidental debility) and they conjoin (or are applying to conjunction) then the dignified planet A "benefits" ("recovers") planet B from planet B's debility. I largely follow this concept*...However, this principle (apparently) does NOT apply to aspects between the planets...


*this concept is discussed by various authors of those times; see for example Al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology" (1029 AD) and Ibn Ezra's "Beginning of Wisdom" (1158 AD)
 

byjove

Account Closed
Hmm, this is all very interesting. I ask now because someone mentioned recently that I have to take into account that two of my planets in aspect have a mixture of essential dignity by placement and loss thereof by the aspect they share. I have to find this now, inquire, and report back!

Otherwise it's just conjunction, then?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
As far as I can tell by my studies of the old literature, yes it is only just conjunction and apparently only just by conjunction in longitude ("by body" as they used to say, excluding conjunction in latitude-or parallel of declination-and excluding also conjunction by nature)
 

virgo18

Well-known member
Mercury exaltation is in Virgo and AQUARIUS! :alien:

Aquarius Mercury is an excellent position for this planet, the same strength as like being in Gemini and Virgo.

Virgo and Gemini are RULERS OF MERCURY and it exalts in AQUARIUS!


Like Libra and Taurus rule Venus, but it exalts in Pisces...


An planet is exalted in a sign that don't rules it but it feels very comfortable.


Virgo is also domicile of mercury "Not exaltation"
 
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MantisReligiosa

Well-known member
I have Mercury in Pisces, Jupiter in Gemini, and they make a square..I must be a total idiot. :sideways:

But I do have Venus exalted, in Pisces, so as long as i can find a rich husband, I'll be fine..:lol:
 

MantisReligiosa

Well-known member
but I also have Saturn in Rulership, Capricorn.

what does this mean: Saturn in Capricorn:-Not require any Suggestions.?

Is that like "no comment"? lol.
 

mjackieward7

Well-known member
I am very interested in this discussion, as both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape. :(

Great thread idea, I can't wait to see what people have to say about this topic!

:devil: I am a bit confused too about afflicted planets-I just started learning about astrology after many years of being scared of even reading anything about astrology (parents are christian), was forbidden to even think about such subjects. So I noticed that I have Mars totally bad and that scares me since I have no clue of what is that mean except of reading that means I have a short temper and that indicates violence but I am not a violent person, in fact I try my best to have harmony around me. So how can that be? in the websites it states really horrible things about my personality and I keep thinking if I have been mean to people but I try to treat people with respect, I try to always see other's point of view before jumping into my own conclusions. If some one can give me some information regarding a "BAD MARS" Here is my chart.
astro_w2gw_01_jaqueline_mederos_hp.20248.25368.gif



Cheer up! :)[/QUOTE]
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?

The first one is a mutual reception. The Sun is exalted in Aries and Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. The Sun is also in its triplicity in Aries and Jupiter is in its triplicity in Cancer.

holly said:
:devil: I am a bit confused too about afflicted planets-I just started learning about astrology after many years of being scared of even reading anything about astrology (parents are christian), was forbidden to even think about such subjects. So I noticed that I have Mars totally bad and that scares me since I have no clue of what is that mean except of reading that means I have a short temper and that indicates violence but I am not a violent person, in fact I try my best to have harmony around me. So how can that be? in the websites it states really horrible things about my personality and I keep thinking if I have been mean to people but I try to treat people with respect, I try to always see other's point of view before jumping into my own conclusions. If some one can give me some information regarding a "BAD MARS" Here is my chart.

I wish your chart was still there, because you probably don't have a bad Mars. I was supposed to have a bad Mars, but when I looked at elevated & pitted degrees it was elevated which made it a very good Mars.
 

mjackieward7

Well-known member
The first one is a mutual reception. The Sun is exalted in Aries and Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. The Sun is also in its triplicity in Aries and Jupiter is in its triplicity in Cancer.



I wish your chart was still there, because you probably don't have a bad Mars. I was supposed to have a bad Mars, but when I looked at elevated & pitted degrees it was elevated which made it a very good Mars.


What is elevated and pitted degrees? how is related to planets?
 

Claire19

Well-known member
I dont get the Sun in Libra as in fall. It is sextile to Sun in Leo in the natural zodiac.. It is accidental as the Sun is exalted in Aries and opposite..... I just dont subscribe to these terms.

I wonder why the North Node is good in Gemini. I have it. Is it because Gemini is the learning sign and of all things new as the North Node deals with our new path this time around....????
 

byjove

Account Closed
Good questions Claire, I share those doubts.

I was looking for somewhere to discuss Ptolemy's work more and here might be good. I read a few astrologers discussing Ptolemy's table of dignities and they weren't that in awe of his work at all. They hinted that he was not a practising astrologer like Valens therefore couldn't really be relied on.

The thing is, as I was reading this, I thought about just how many of us have followed his table like it was the first page in an astrological bible. Does he really deserve such status? If he was not a practising astrologer, compare him to that scientist who said about a year or two ago that there are the constellations have moved on and you may not have the correct 'star sign'. He's not a practising astrologer either. Many modern astrologers worship him, but as I delve more into his history I'm less convinced and more troubled by how much we inherit without asking questions. However, if there is real work that should not be discounted, I'm happy to accept that. I just want to distinguish a little.

A ray of hope though: there were of course other great astrologers we can more rely on, not just form Europe but Persia and Egypt too. Valens has his own table though doesn't he? I'll check that out again, I think it's similar but with some differences.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
The thing about Ptolemy that many people forget in their criticisms of him is that he was working in the Library of Alexandria when he was writing his books. Certainly he wasn't a practicing astrologer, but think of him more like a transcriptionist. He had access to many texts that we've now lost due to the library's burning later on, so he's sort of our guide into what those texts were and the general idea of astrology at that early stage of history. Of course, Valens is a good foil to him in this regard. Valens had the experience that Ptolemy didn't have, but didn't have the references that Ptolemy had.
 

Moog

Well-known member
I dont get the Sun in Libra as in fall. It is sextile to Sun in Leo in the natural zodiac.. It is accidental as the Sun is exalted in Aries and opposite..... I just dont subscribe to these terms.

The fall point of a planet is opposite its exaltation

I wonder why the North Node is good in Gemini. I have it. Is it because Gemini is the learning sign and of all things new as the North Node deals with our new path this time around....????
Not sure about that one. It could be something as simple as it giving mercury a boost, and astrologers tend to be mental types. But then why not Virgo? I am speculating wildly.
 

Moog

Well-known member
Mercury exaltation is in Virgo and AQUARIUS! :alien:

Aquarius Mercury is an excellent position for this planet, the same strength as like being in Gemini and Virgo.

Virgo and Gemini are RULERS OF MERCURY and it exalts in AQUARIUS!

It's not a bad place, because Saturn likes Mercury, but it's not an exaltation, not by any schema I'm familiar with.
 

Moog

Well-known member
Not sure about that one. It could be something as simple as it giving mercury a boost, and astrologers tend to be mental types. But then why not Virgo? I am speculating wildly.

I just checked this out, and some Vedic astrologers give Gemini as exaltation and Virgo as 'Moolatrikona' which is considered about as good as exaltation. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about signs for the nodes...
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
In Vedic there is NO agreement even among the "fathers" (Parasara, Jaimini, Bhrigu, etc) relative to exaltation/"ownership"/debilitation signs for the Nodes; I myself do NOT attempt to allocate these dignities/debilities to the Nodes.
 

uprunni

New member
I have studied astrology since 1989 and have examined several conflicting disciplines. Having seen the validity between sun centered vs. earth centered methods, it is likewise possible for both traditional and modern classifications to show merit. However, in my approach I feel that traditions had to be modified when astronomers discovered Pluto, Neptune and Uranus re-assigning dignites as well as dibilities. I have come to respect Dane Rudhyar and agree with most of his assignments which describe only two combinations of planet and sign that constitute a true 'fall': Moon in Aries and Pluto in Virgo.

Most will agree on rulership, i.e that Pluto better represents the qualities of Scorpio giving the co-rulership of Saturn back to Capricorn, but there seems to be no mutual agreement when it comes to re-assigning the fall. It is interesting that other than the glyph, Virgo and Scorpio display no other connections, but with this assignment there is another link between the two in shifting the 'opposite exalted' tradional rule to the glyph instead of the sign itself.

Not to discredit tradition, but astrology is an evolving science and I believe that makes it subject to updates. However, prior assignments served astrologers well before our knowledge of the solar system increased, so it is my opinion that those same rules can still apply and produce an accurate reading.
 
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byjove

Account Closed
I have Mercury in Pisces, Jupiter in Gemini, and they make a square..I must be a total idiot. :sideways:

But I do have Venus exalted, in Pisces, so as long as i can find a rich husband, I'll be fine..:lol:

Well I have spent ages going through past threads to find a vital piece but I cannot find it, perhaps you know the idea? I have Mercury and Venus in Pisces like you, but someone pointed out to me that Venus was very strong and that Mercury would benefit greatly from this. I think it was related to her being the almuten of something, I cannot remember or find the correct thread. That and of course mutual dignity, helpful aspects etc. can lift our Mercuries. :smile:
 

Moog

Well-known member
Well I have spent ages going through past threads to find a vital piece but I cannot find it, perhaps you know the idea? I have Mercury and Venus in Pisces like you, but someone pointed out to me that Venus was very strong and that Mercury would benefit greatly from this. I think it was related to her being the almuten of something, I cannot remember or find the correct thread. That and of course mutual dignity, helpful aspects etc. can lift our Mercuries. :smile:

Yes, that principle is called neecha bhanga in Indian astrology. If an exalted planet or a domiciled planet is in the same sign/house as a debilitated planet, it cancels the debility. There's a number of other rules for debility cancellation.

It is said that you get the debilitated effects first then the cancellation effect comes in later. Albert Einstein is often given as an example.

Sidereally, your Jupiter is in Pisces/9th along with Mercury, Venus is in Aquarius. It's a very strong Jupiter.
 
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