Alan Leo on Orbs

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I just found this point in one of his books and thought I'd share it to see if other people agree with it:

" It should be remembered that a planet applying at a distance of, let us say, 7 degrees to a major aspect will be much stronger in its effects than one separating by 7 degrees."

So this would mean that when we give orbs to a planet we are no longer placing the planet in the middle- an orb of 8 degrees for a trine could be 10 degrees before the planet and 6 after (or to be more realistic would be 8 degrees before and only 6 after.)

Has this ever seemed true to people?

 

[lillyjgc]

Sundance Kid,
i guess the answer to your question is yes. It must be remembered that the astrological custom of the day prior to alan Leo was to give a much wider orb on application.
As the maximum strength of a transiting planet occurs when the aspect is exact, the strength diminishes technically, from the point at which it begins to separate....if its a slow moving planet it exerts its influence for longer and is slower to depart...hence a more *long term* effect is derived for the transit.I would not give an orb of ten degrees usually to an applying aspect...(unless it was involved in a stellium or similar..) and for a departing planet I would consider an orb of 3 to be the maximum.
I would give an applying trine of say mercury to mars a 5 deg orb on the applying side and a 3 deg orb for the separating *influence*- or *aftermath* as I call it....the quicker the planet, arguably the tighter the orb of influence because it doesnt stay long and moves on quickly.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
lillyjgc

 

[wayne penner]

Leo was referring to natal planets, and he is of course correct. Also, it is true that the old writers until C E O Carter did advocate large orbs. Carter continually stated that orbs should be cut back drastically, his rule being that the fewer aspects the better.

However, the applying/separating rule does not seem to hold fast when it comes to secondary progressions. My experience has been that these progressions are realized on the physical plane slightly after exactness, contrary to popular opinion. Secondaries sometimes take as long as two degrees to produce a tangible material effect, although I would not go so far as to say that the psychological effects of secondary progressions are delayed.

 

[wilsontc]

applying and separating in birth charts, to Wayne

Wayne,

I don't agree with using applying (moving closer) and separating (moving farther away) in birth charts, since birth charts are non-moving charts. This makes more sense in transit charts and progressed charts which are moving charts. Since progressions are very slow moving charts, it could take awhile for the person to realize the applying or separating effect.

Non-moving,

Tim

 

[wayne penner]

Re: applying and separating in birth charts, to Wayne

Wayne,

I don't agree with using applying (moving closer) and separating (moving farther away) in birth charts, since birth charts are non-moving charts. This makes more sense in transit charts and progressed charts which are moving charts. Since progressions are very slow moving charts, it could take awhile for the person to realize the applying or separating effect.

Non-moving,

Tim

wilsontc I would say that the chart is not static but simply a momentary glimpse of an ever-moving dynamic, much in the same way a photograph depicts a moment in a changeful world. Probably it's not a good idea to even attempt to interpret a birth chart without also including the progressed chart.

The whole question of orbs is a difficult one however, in part because we often lose sight of the fact that the chart is not simply a number of aspects, but in fact just one whole aspect. We often abstract this or that aspect out of a chart, but that is not reality or the experience of the person - Moon trine Neptune in one chart is not Moon trine Neptune in another. So an orb of 6 degrees in one trine may be equal in strength to an aspect of 2 degrees in another, depending on the chart as a whole.

This is in part why astrology is so immensely complex, and why so many people find it impossible to understand.

But in any case, nothing in life is static or fixed, any more than there are straight lines in nature - nature never produces straight lines, even in crystal growth, but prefers roundness and circles.

Life is fluid, moves continually, in a cycle ...

 

[Shining Ray]

I like using the Liz Greene orbs, although everyone complains about them on Astrodienst. I use 10 degrees for all major aspects (conjunction, square, trine, opposition) and 6 degrees for the sextile. I have never felt much difference natally from applying to seperating aspects. Tightness of orb is a more reliable factor. Planets on the angles in a wide aspect can have a powerful effect compared to a closer aspect less prominant in the chart. Use your own judgement and experience.

 

[Claire19]

I agree when the aspect is applying to the planet it is more powerful. I would not use 7 degrees except with the sun and moon. A trine no more than 6.
Going away from the planet its effects are less of course.

With transits and progressions for instance I would use only an orb of no more than 3 degrees either side. Maybe a little more with Sun and Moon.

The question of orbs is a vexed and long running one with many varied opinions. It is only personal experience as life goes on that can give us the validations for ourselves.

 

[Claire19]

Re: applying and separating in birth charts, to Wayne

Wayne,

I don't agree with using applying (moving closer) and separating (moving farther away) in birth charts, since birth charts are non-moving charts. This makes more sense in transit charts and progressed charts which are moving charts. Since progressions are very slow moving charts, it could take awhile for the person to realize the applying or separating effect.

Non-moving,

Tim

Right on!!!

 

[lillyjgc]

Re: applying and separating in birth charts, to Wayne

Hi, Just pointing out that even though a Natal chart is Static/non-moving, for the purposes of chart progression, whether an aspect was applying or separating in the Natal does make a difference.
Cheers
Lilly