Absence of element/modality means strong?

wilsontc

Well-known member
To all,

Something I have been wondering about is astrologers find an element or modality entirely missing in the person...and then turn around and say that makes the modality "strong" in the chart. For example, a person has no Fire element in their chart, so they are very "Firey". To me this has never made any sense and I haven't seen any evidence in charts that this works. Sometimes a person will have nothing in an element and then have a house in the same element, as in a person has no fire but they have strong fire houses, but other than that, "if it ain't there it ain't there." Or perhaps there is a more reasonable way to look at this? How can someone with nothing in a chart element or modality be strong in that element or modality? That sounds to me like saying a person who has no money actually being very wealthy?

Confused on this point,

Tim
 
To some degree this goes back to house systems, my own example. 4fire, 4earth, 1water, 1air + air Asc Aquarius, MC Saggi. All my fire planets are in air houses, all my earth planets are in water houses. BUT if you use placidus my earth planets taurus go into 2nd house of taurus and amplifies lack of water greatly. Whilst not being an overly emotional person, I don't do 'tea and sympathy' cos I'm very very practical and fire just wants to get things done. But talk about attachments to family, home roots and I'll fight to the death. Work from home brought up one family and will shortly be bringing up a step family....:biggrin: very 4th house and cancerian traits..

Over-compensation I feel is what happens when there is a lack of element, but espec learners need to look at what might 'balance out' these things like I've described above.

When there is a lack of fire, there may be lots planets in cardinal/Angular houses to compensate. It's really quite a rarity to be completely 'unbalanced' in a chart and when there is, it desparately attempts to 'compensate' for what's missing, like a three legged stool. Maybe a partner or spouse is the anchor, support or complimentory part...
 

waybread

Staff member
Good topic, Tim!

I agree that sometimes planets in the houses associated with a "missing" element can make the person appear to have more of it than they do. It kind of depends what's there. Take the "water houses." The moon in Taurus in the 4th, for example, should make a difference; but Saturn in Aries in the 4th, probably not.

I don't think a "missing element" makes a person strong in that element, however. Rather, I think people learn to compensate by developing skills that help to get around for the lack. For example, blind/sight-impaired people develop a keener sense of hearing.

I have only one planet in a water sign, and not a strong one at that: Mars in Pisces conjunct my sun in Aquarius and opposed by Saturn in Virgo. As a person with mostly air and fire in my chart, I have a dread of the emotional closeness [suffocation??] and attention to feelings [drama queens?] that a lot of water in the chart seems to express.

But I realized some years ago in my job, when I had to trouble-shoot various problems expressed by co-workers and students, that I actually had a kind of disability. I could not, for the life of me, intuit what they wanted and what they were feeling. Intellectualizing their problems wasn't enough to address them. I began to realize that I had a "missing gene" when I observed a couple of staff members who were just marvelous and knowing how people were feeling, and what they really meant but were afraid to say.

Well, I couldn't be intuitive and feeling in a million years, but I could train myself to observe people more carefully, to listen more seriously to exactly what they said, and to develop a better awareness of the institutional culture in which we all worked. This helped a lot, but these were all air-related functions developed by way of compensation for a shortage of water.

BTW, I do have two planets in "water houses"; but with Jupiter in Capricorn and Saturn in Virgo, they don't really "water" my emotional nature.

I think that so-called "feminine" and "masculine" signs can compensate for one another in synastry if it is the same modality, but not if they are different. I. e., earth and water do better together, as do air and fire, unless the signs in question are in opposition. A strongly Cancerian man, for example, with no earth, might do just fine with a strongly Taurean mate; whereas he wouldn't do so well with a cool, airy, Aquarian.
 

katydid

Staff member
My 17 yr old daughter has no planets in water except the generational Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th house. She has a lot of earth and a lot of air. However she is very emotional and sensitive. Little things can bring her to tears. And I would think she does overcompensate in some ways with the lack of 'emotional' planets. She is very compassionate and kind, perhaps due to her mercury/venus trine neptune/uranus. And she is very intense and deep, perhaps due to her exact Mercury/pluto opposition. 'She is a songwriter, and her lyrics are sometimes very emotional.
One thing that does sound like her 'lack of water' is that she hates it when her boyfriend gets all 'goo-goo eyed' romantic. She loves him and they are very close, and spend a lot of time together, talk on the phone for hours at a time, but she does not like him to get 'mushy' as she calls it. Perhaps that is her gemini sun. sag rising, aquarius moon talking.
 
Yeah it is a funny one this. Hitler as you all know has no water, and he isn't a particular sympathetic character. No water doesn't mean you are unemotional, but I can't see this being his strong suit, having no cards in the blue element. Concerning his water houses, he only has outer planets in them. Everyone says Hitler is a bad example to use, and I can see their point, because he is a psychopath.

I just surfed the net and found Gorden Ramsay has no Air planets, and to me this speaks volumes (sorry for the pun), because he does over-shout at people all the time. Not civil in communication, but definitely verbal. Shouting a LOT, he has Mars in critical Virgo, most of his planets here, which describe his picky nature, and constant criticizing. Mercury is powerful anyway, and is placed in EXAGGERATED fiery Sagittarius :trine: fiery :jupiter: in Leo, blunt and humorous, and I am sure he can be positive too. The Mercurial element, is there for communication. He can certainly state an opinion or 10. Sun in Scorpio with the Saturn-Pluto opposition describes his need to be in control, authority, harsh character. Some women fancy him. Here is the man in action - NO Air blowing a lot of hot air in the kitchen. Verbal, but NOT a nice use of the English language :biggrin:. Be glad he is not on the forum Tim, but I doubt astrology is his thing. You can't get a word in edge-ways. In this interview he makes fun of politeness, perhaps this is revealing. Air does makes us more civil, fair, detached.

I don't know, it's a strange thing... Maybe some No Air people over write, read, talk...gossip, I am not 100% on this one, and there may not be a definite answer, and most astrologers don't offer many examples to explain this. I could drag more examples up for us to criticize/analyze and see what conclusion we reach at the end, or if anyone has a personal experience it will be helpful to the discussion.

20080130-Gordon%20Ramsay%20birthchart.GIF



Not sure how Hitler overcompensated for no water - powerful emotions swept everywhere, through the suffering he caused.

I read this on Hitler and perhaps it holds true.

Unquestionably, as a speaker, he has had a powerful influence on the common run of German people. His meetings were always crowded and by the time he got through speaking he had completely numbed the critical faculties of his listeners to the point where they were willing to believe almost anything he said. He flattered them and cajoled them. He hurled accusations at them one moment and amused them the next by building up straw men which he promptly knocked down. His tongue was like a lash which whipped up the emotions of his audience. And somehow he always managed to say what the majority of the audience were already secretly thinking but could not verbalize. When the audience began to respond, it affected him in return. Before long, due to this reciprocal relationship, he and his audience became intoxicated with the emotional appeal of his oratory.
 

waybread

Staff member
My 17 yr old daughter has no planets in water except the generational Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th house. She has a lot of earth and a lot of air. However she is very emotional and sensitive. Little things can bring her to tears. And I would think she does overcompensate in some ways with the lack of 'emotional' planets. She is very compassionate and kind, perhaps due to her mercury/venus trine neptune/uranus. And she is very intense and deep, perhaps due to her exact Mercury/pluto opposition. 'She is a songwriter, and her lyrics are sometimes very emotional.
One thing that does sound like her 'lack of water' is that she hates it when her boyfriend gets all 'goo-goo eyed' romantic. She loves him and they are very close, and spend a lot of time together, talk on the phone for hours at a time, but she does not like him to get 'mushy' as she calls it. Perhaps that is her gemini sun. sag rising, aquarius moon talking.

I think you raise an important point: that in addition to "watery" houses, there are also "watery" planets: the moon and Neptune. They may be placed in such a way that a water-free individual nevertheless shows the watery characteristics of feeling and intuition.

BTW, astrologer Stephen Arroyo, in his book Person-to-Person Astrology, distinguishes between emotion and feeling. He attributes emotion to fire signs, which makes sense if we include anger, enthusiasm, pride, &c. He attributes feeling to water signs. So just possibly the signs overlap a bit in their contents. A Leo with hurt feelings may express emotions like pride and humiliation, yet not show that deep yearning and longing to bond with another human being that a water sign might express.
 

estrella

Well-known member
In my experience, SOME people that truly have a very weak or non-existent element or modality will sense that they are lacking that element in their personality and will overcompensate for it.

For example, if someone is really low on water-they MIGHT overcompensate by being pouty, oversensitive, caring of others to the point of being smothering, etc..

If someone is missing air, they might overcompensate by being fascinated with trivia and could overplay the "intelligence" thing by presenting themselves as know-it-alls...etc. You get the idea.

Usually, if it ain't there it ain't there. But, some people will overcompensate in this way-and when they do it usually comes across as fake or unnatural.
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
I have one planet in water. I find that I just cannot live without being around water. I love the beach, for the amazing waves that crash upon the shores seem to cleanse my soul. I feel toxic if I dont drink enough water. I take sometimes 3 showers a day, just to feel the water touch my skin. I love the rain.

I compensate by surrounding myself with the element that I lack.
 

estrella

Well-known member
Smilingsteph-it's great that you brought that up. The healthy way to compensate is to surround yourself with the lacking element.
I lack water in my chart too. I find myself drawn to iridescent colors and silky scarves with funky pearl necklaces. I also feel best when I drink lots of water throughout the day.
 

elumen

Well-known member
I have to second SmilingSteph's experience here. I also have only one planet in water (Venus in Pisces) and I love water element, when I am all stressed out and tired I take long shower and it immediately calms and soothes me. I love the ocean, rivers, ponds, and need to drink a lot of water daily.
On the other hand, I'm very sensitive, emotional, and easily feel and merge with other people's emotions and feelings, but the Venus is in the 1H square Neptune and in opposition to the Moon in Virgo. So the Neptunian influence seems to be very intense with me merging with others and super sensetive to their energetic and emotional impact. I feel no lack of water but sometimes I wonder what it means for me and what is the spiritual implication in this placement.
 

wilsontc

Well-known member
singleton vs. void, to steph

steph,

You said:
I have one planet in water...I compensate by surrounding myself with the element that I lack.

Thanks for the example! I do understand singletons and how, when you have one sign of an element/modality you can tend to overdo that sign energy. The thing that I am thinking and rethinking is what happens when you have a void in a sign (e.g., absolutely no signs in water). If a person has NO water signs, how do they behave in an overly "watery" way? Or is it maybe a "fake water", where they use what they have to TRY to be "watery" and it doesn't really work? Maybe it all comes down to "we always want what we can't have" (i.e., the voids in sign element/modality)?

Astro-thinking,

Tim
 

katydid

Staff member
Re: singleton vs. void, to steph

steph,

You said:


Thanks for the example! I do understand singletons and how, when you have one sign of an element/modality you can tend to overdo that sign energy. The thing that I am thinking and rethinking is what happens when you have a void in a sign (e.g., absolutely no signs in water). If a person has NO water signs, how do they behave in an overly "watery" way? Or is it maybe a "fake water", where they use what they have to TRY to be "watery" and it doesn't really work? Maybe it all comes down to "we always want what we can't have" (i.e., the voids in sign element/modality)?

Astro-thinking,

Tim

I see the difference that you are pointing out. Although my daughter has no personal planets in water signs, having pluto in the 12th in Scorpio may act more like a singleton than a true void. There is water in her chart, but it is not as easily accessed as my mercury and sun is scorpio is.

I just looked through a whole lot of charts in my files, and did not find anyone who had a total void. There was at least a house or a generational planet or an angle present.
I will keep looking.
 
Joey from friends has NO AIR he has tapped into his lack of air element and amusingly played a dim wit on friends for 12 years :biggrin:. This is funny really, natally he has :mercury: :square: :saturn:, wheras Gorden Ramsey has overconfidence in his opinions - which seemed to be totally full on :mercury: :trine: :jupiter: Matt leblanc's character is fictional, but still I think it is significant what role he has played for years.
 
So far I found Hitler- No water - an uncaring *******

Gorden Ramsay - No Air -does not believe in the polite civilised approach.

Joey - No Air - played a dim wit.

This game is fun, and I believe with these particular individuals the lack of an element is evident, for the roles they play/ed in life. More examples may show other people who strive to be caring/sentimental etc with no water, as others were saying. Or who write, and I am sure I have seen a writer with no air, it's not an anomaly - perhaps we can't be too cut and dried in how we describe a lack of an element. Human beings are funny creatures and we have different mechanisms for coping with our own perceived weaknesses. For example Saturn in Aries can be attacking, or aggressive, violent in over-compensation, or he can be under confident, shy, lacking potency. The same placement but people react differently to the same "weakness".
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
Hello, I tend to agree with the overcompensating theory when a chart shows lack of element or modality. The person may initially overcompensate however hopefully finding balance is the ultimate goal. Much has to do with other factors in the chart for example someone may have no fire but Mars is on the angle. Its about the temperaments one is born with.

Most animals do not have the capacity to adjust their temperaments. A wolf in the wild is a wolf. A crocodile will always sneak up and eat you. I know that there are amazing stories of animals re adusting in captivity however I would never trust a crocodile or wolf.

Chart angles may be fixed in combination with other fixed planets in Scorpio, Aquarius Leo and Taurus. One might say the person has a "fixed quality" about them. Perhaps their challenge is to integrate flexibility or they are well liked because they are dependable or stubborn in their make up?

Conversely with mutable signs and adapting. Its ok to conform of fit in however over adapting veers away from individualism in personality and creates other issues that may become a different factor in ones survival.

The way I see the Elements and Qualities in the natal chart relates to a single cell organism. At the very base - instinctive level for an individual person/cell - their survival process will be determined by the modalities and elements. All other chart details are built upon these base instinctive levels.

The Human capacity to "find balance" for survival purposes is astounding. A fixed person may not be willing to change and for survival purposes finds another person with more fire if they are lacking in that element. Perhaps the person has a role model in life who they identify with and thus learn to develop fire all on their own.

A mutable person likewise may enter into a relationship or have friends who better express the quality missing in themselves. Like companion planting or symbiotic coupling the person eventually finds their own balance or remains dependant on another organisms.

In times of cisis and pressure - each and every one of us has a tendency to revert to our instinctive organic survival method. This will depend on the balances between modalities and the elements in the chart. Perhaps the survival process is by adapting to the environment or by not changing, non confronational behaviours, bravado, creativity, nuture and sensing, independance and individuality etc.

A person lacking in one or two elements/qualities can be a very interesting person, they may stand out from the crowd in some way. If not at first, they may develop that form, once they get the hang of their "organism"


kingsley
 
I will show one more example because I start to become obsessed otherwise. Here is Alberto Fujomori. Details below:

Japanese name: Ken'ya Fujimori Japanese Peruvian politician who served as President of Peru from July 28, 1990 to November 17, 2000. A controversial figure, Fujimori has been credited with uprooting terrorism in Peru and restoring its macroeconomic stability, though his methods have drawn charges of authoritarianism and human rights violations. Even amidst his 2008 prosecution for "crimes against humanity" relating to his presidency, two-thirds of Peruvians polled voiced approval for his leadership in that period.

He has degrees, and has been recognized for his academic achievements, he has intelligence. I would say he had poor judgement (air) he ordered an illegal search for documents and videotapes.

The Peruvian authorities compiled several cases against Mr Fujimori, including the death-squad killing of 25 people in two incidents known as La Cantuta and Barrios Altos, illegal phone tapping, siphoning of funds from government ministries, bribing of politicians and the transfer of £8.6m to Mr Montesinos.


Basically he used the "intelligence" service to intimidate and spy on rivals. Not a good way to use INTELLIGENCE.

Astrologically he has 3 planets in the 11th house which can indicate political, or broader and universal drives. :sun: :conjunct: :mars: :pluto: - explains a lot.

My 4th example Alberto - high intelligence, political, communications - yet poor Judgement.

Perhaps a "poor" use of the element is sometimes evident. I will stop stalking the thread with my examples now. However, I may steal my these back for my blog posts, I will have to find more NO FIRE examples and more NO WATER. Don't want to leave it unbalanced ha ha. :sideways:
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Smiling Steph (hi)
have one planet in water. I find that I just cannot live without being around water. I love the beach, for the amazing waves that crash upon the shores seem to cleanse my soul. I feel toxic if I dont drink enough water. I take sometimes 3 showers a day, just to feel the water touch my skin. I love the rain.

I compensate by surrounding myself with the element that I lack.

__________________
I can totally relate to this. The only planet I have in Fire, is Pluto in h9.I burn candles constantly, and make my own. I live in a cold climate where wood fires are part of daily life. I use a firebowl for spiritual activities.

I have 4 planets in water signs. I hate swimming, and have almost drowned on a number of occasions in my life.But I am also over emotional, even though I have my moon in cool headed virgo.Many of my friends have fire sign sun positions.I think I tend to attract fire signs to compensate for my own lack thereof.
Kingsley, i totally agree with your observations above. Despite my lack of fire, I do have Mars in cap in h1, which to some extent can act in a fiery way, and whether the angles are cardinal fixed or mutable is a very significant point.Glad you raised it.
Cheers
Lilly
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
According to:
http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/inferior/inferior2.htm

The charts of great modern astrologers, Marc Edmund Jones, Dane Rudhyar and Robert Hand are waterless.


I believe that missing elements can drive a person to seek out the experience from what they lack. A drive so strong that they are able to find the water, air, earth, fire that they need to provide harmony within. This drive may provide the individual with such a desire that they can accomplish more than what a balanced person (with all 4 modalities) can.

Like a trine vs square. The trine can provide such ease that a person may not be able to really utilize it to its fullest. A square can provide the energy needed to propel the persons inner core to try to balance out the conflicting energies.

I think that those missing a particular modality, are faced with energies that act like a square aspect, if you will.
 
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gaer

Well-known member
My 17 yr old daughter has no planets in water except the generational Pluto in Scorpio in the 12th house. She has a lot of earth and a lot of air. However she is very emotional and sensitive. Little things can bring her to tears. And I would think she does overcompensate in some ways with the lack of 'emotional' planets. She is very compassionate and kind, perhaps due to her mercury/venus trine neptune/uranus. And she is very intense and deep, perhaps due to her exact Mercury/pluto opposition. 'She is a songwriter, and her lyrics are sometimes very emotional.
One thing that does sound like her 'lack of water' is that she hates it when her boyfriend gets all 'goo-goo eyed' romantic. She loves him and they are very close, and spend a lot of time together, talk on the phone for hours at a time, but she does not like him to get 'mushy' as she calls it. Perhaps that is her gemini sun. sag rising, aquarius moon talking.
Someone very close to me has Gem Sun, Aqua Moon. Only Sat and Ura in water. She does, however, have Pices AC.

She is one of the kindest human beings I know. However, she truly does not understand the darker side of humanity. She knows it exists, but it always catches her off guard. Six planets in air, emphasis on Gem. There is nothing cruel or unfeeling in HER. It is the cruelty and lack of feeling in OTHER PEOPLE that she doesn't understand. For her the meaness of human beings just doesn't make sense to her.

She might as well be an alien trying to figure out the base feelings of human beings. :)
 

starlink

Well-known member
I am coming in quite late on this thread, no time to get a look at my computer at all today until now!

I do not so much agree with the overcompensation part, but do very much agree with finding the missing element in other people. I have a very good example, my own daughter whom I have observed now for 37 years.

She has no waterplanets, nor waterhouses with planets in them, so really absolutely nothing in water. No strong angular planets except Sun in Aries in 10 and Uranus conjunct cusp 4.

Almost everything is in Air (Moon, Mars, Venus, Saturn, NNode, Uranus and Pluto) and also in houses 11 and 3!! It could not be more Airy!!
Asc., Sun and Mercury in Aries, Neptune in Sag.

AND only one planet in Earth!! Jupiter in Capricorn, and only the Sun in an Earth house (10). So she lacks Earth as well.

She does not overcompensate Water at all by looking for other ways of expressing her emotions. Her emotions are her BIG problem in life. She cannot control them and often just looses it, emotionally, and the proverbial turning a fly into an elephant is typical of her. Emotional outbursts can get out of proportion. I dont call this overcompensation, I call it over-exageration. She exagerates everything related to emotional situations and especially in relationships with men, this is causing her a lot of problems. She just feels totally insecure and not in control of the circumstances and then uses her fire and Air elements to cover this insecurity up and risks coming on too strong. She can talks anyone under the table and is a very powerful and intelligent speaker (Pluto-Mercury opposition in houses 3-9). This then scares men no end and of course she ends up being disappointed and very lonely.

Strangely enough she does not find Water friends to compensate for this lack. She does not seem to want to be confronted with emotional people and it easily upsets her when she feels the emotional expression of others.

Now for the lack of Earth. This is interesting. She has NorthNode in Capricorn in Grand Trine with Saturn and Pluto. She is fiercely loyal (Asc. Leo) in relationships with friends and almost all her friends are Capricorns (mostly women) or Virgo (mostly men). Some are Taurus, and she always turns to me (Taurus) when she needs "grounding making her see that things are not as they appear to her.

The one's that are Gemini, she gets along with very well but often end into conflict.

I have noticed that now that progressed Sun has reached her Saturn and progr. Ascendant is in Virgo, progr. Mercury in Taurus (in 10) and Pr.Venus and Mars in Cancer, she has become much more organised, much more ambitious and even starts cleaning up her house, caring more about her home in general!! With so much Gemini in house 11, that was almost non existent.

So the earth quality is slowly being established and emotionally she is also slowly becoming more caring, but the motherly feelings, mmmm....., after 1 hour with my granddaugter she has enough, so own children are not high on her list!.

So I would think that by progression these people can start getting in touch with these lacks of element in their personality and because the intellectual faculty is often strongly emphasized, they can also learn to become more organised (Earth), even though it is not easy for them. But they cannot learn to become more emotional of course, at best you can loose the fear of letting go when it comes to showing your feelings.

In her career however, she has always been very precise and orderly (Sun in 10, the only Earth house with a planet) so I guess that any planet placed in a house of the lacking element (am I saying this right?) will behave more according to the lacking element and maybe here we could find compensation of that element, especially when there is more than one personal planet in such a house.

So I wonder why she does find other Earthy friends to fill up the lack of Earth, but not any Water people and that being confronted with emotional problems of others really puts her off and makes her unhappy (" I have enough problems of my own, I dont need other people's problems as well") and that she really enjoys Earthy people and these usually become very important in her life. I think because she has more planets in Air than fire.

BUT, and now comes the very interesting part. She does get very emotional about 11th house matters, to the point of getting tears in her eyes.

The suffering in 3rd world countries, anything to do with the pain people go through after an earthquake or other ordeal. She once got totally conned by a women and straight away gave the person 300 Euro!! never to be given back of course. Things like that, she just believes the sad stories and falls for ît.

So I guess that the feelings and emotions become more universal, more general than personal, because that is safer for her. She can show compassion and love without being afraid she is doing something "wrong", without the question in the back of her mind "what is he/she thinking of me", just because she does not trust herself when it comes to expressing her feelings. And this without any Saturn-Moon or Saturn-Mercury aspects to cause insecurity.

So I think that a lack of an element causes great insecurity in that field. Personally I have only Neptune in Libra (in 11) and Uranus in Gemini (in 7) so I am weak in Air and I have always felt very insecure intellectually. I need diplomas to show myself (not others) I can do something well, that sort of thing. I want to learn and read as much as I can so I feel more competent but hardly ever open my mouth about anything unless I am extremely sure about what I am about to say.People say I have Emotional Intelligence, but it took me a long time to acknowledge that that was something worthwile having!
 
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