Abortion - Your Opinion

[chay]

Is being unvaccinated and pregnant a fair choice by a mother?
Once upon a time I would have vehemently defended a woman's choice not to vaccinate, but these are different times & I'm not so sure now.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/he...ake-up-20-per-cent-of-englands-critically-ill

 

[chay]

Studies show most violent inscidents in the house against children usually come from step-fathers (or mommy's drug addicted new boyfriend) than from genetic fathers, or from unrelated males in general.

The inscidence of violence also goes up with unemployment and government dependancy (wellfare and social programs). This is explained by the logic that a man will try to "assert authority" through violence, if he can't do it as a provider (which is the natural paternal role in the family).

Dirius, the sad fact is that not only conservative families with a male breadwinner exist. Also I wouldn't tolerate a man "asserting authority" through any means....he does not have to have authority. That's a delusional and dangerous concept.
A woman is not responsible for the violence of a man. Its is not a woman's fault if a man abuses her child. Its the abusers fault. It's unreasonable to criticize welfare and complain about abortion at the same time. I think you'll also find that a lot of infanticide occurs when a woman is at WORK. Most traditional families these days have to have both parents working. The old "dad is boss" thing is long gone I'm sorry.

 

[chay]

Where is the child's freedom over his own body, a choice not to be dismembered?

Do we get to decide on someone else's body all of the sudden? Abortion process usually involves tearing out limb by limb.

A child is completely dependent on the parents, so they don't have choice. Choice is something taught & introduced. A fetus literally can not make a choice.

 

[Dirius]

This is totally incorrect, Dirius. Most abortions occur at such an early stage that the fetus is tiny.

But this is what bothers me about the anti-women's rights crowd. So many of them are ignorant of women's reproduction and the therapeutic abortion process.

Can you please tell me the exact weight and measurement when it stops being a candidate for being murdered?

Is it a 2 pounds.? 1 pound? 50 grams? And what size? 20 inches? 30 inches?

Which is the moment when it stops being a "tiny" thing?

 

[david starling]

Argentina and Mexico have recently legalized abortion, even though a majority of their populations oppose it.

Many hospitals and doctors are refusing to perform abortions.

In Mexico they were putting women in prison for having abortions. Now, those women who have been incarcerated for it can have their freedom.

 

[Dirius]

Dirius, it's time to stop pretending to be so clueless.

As I pointed out in my initial post on the previous page, many unwanted pregnancies are the result of failed birth control. Look up the failure rate of condoms. I think it's around 10%. Condoms can slip off inside the woman's vagina, notably after a man ejaculates and his penis reverts to its smaller flacid size, and such condoms don't necessarily contain all of the semen.

Some men don't feel sufficently relaxed about having to put on a condom to use them, perhaps relying on early withdrawal. You can imagine the pregnancy rate with that method. Ditto for the rhythm method.

Birth control pills should not be taken during a woman's entire fertile period for health reasons. Cervical caps, diaphragms, and other mechanical barriers have the same problem of slippage. IUDs today are the most effective, but the early ones had real health problems, so many women today still prefer to steer clear of them.

Convenience???

Give me a major break. Look up ectopic pregnancy, pre-eclampsia, and incompatible blood types. What about women who must be on medication for their own health and even survival, when that medication would harm a fetus? Think of cancer treatments and anti-psychotic drugs. Would you personally want to carry a fetus to term, knowing its severe birth defects would make it unable to live more than a few hours? Would you personally want to carry the fetus of your rapist-- or father?

Do you know how many girls have been beaten or thrown out of the house when they informed their parent they were pregnant? (A real problem with deeply "religious" families.)

You are not a father. You have not been close to a pregnant spouse or partner, to see the sorts of health issues many pregnant women and some children endure.

What about raising the child, from birth through age 18 or so? What if you were indeed married-- but very poor and didn't see how you and your husband could afford baby #5.

You're the one with the all the convenience, Dirius.

All very sad examples of cruel and unwanted things that happen to some people in life, but it still doesn't give you the right to end another human being's life. The person inside the woman's womb isn't responsible that you were raped or beaten.

You are making an argument based on pity, implying that because someone's situation is dire, then it entitles them to commit murder. It doesn't. Just like theft isn't justified due to poverty, murder of an innocent isn't justified due to rape.

 

[david starling]

Abortion is now legal in Argentina, "on demand" for up to 14 weeks.

The Catholic Church is, of course, opposed to it, and many hospitals and doctors are refusing to perform abortions.

In Mexico, where the Church is also very influential, abortion has been decriminalized. The women who have been incarcerated for it can now gain their freedom.

 

[Dirius]

Dirius, the sad fact is that not only conservative families with a male breadwinner exist. Also I wouldn't tolerate a man "asserting authority" through any means....he does not have to have authority. That's a delusional and dangerous concept.
A woman is not responsible for the violence of a man. Its is not a woman's fault if a man abuses her child. Its the abusers fault. It's unreasonable to criticize welfare and complain about abortion at the same time. I think you'll also find that a lot of infanticide occurs when a woman is at WORK. Most traditional families these days have to have both parents working. The old "dad is boss" thing is long gone I'm sorry.

I'm not saying this is justified, nor that it is how the world should work. But studies do show that males may act more violent in a way to assert authority or exert control over others, particularly children and women living in the household. In a traditional environment, when the parent is the breadwinner (not neccesarily the sole one) of the household, he is more likely to feel respected or fulfillled, and studies show violence is usually much less common.

One of the reasons domestic violence has been escalating in the west is due to a degradation of the standards of living in the population, which is caused by our larger dependancy on government assistance and interference in our lives.

However, the most common source of domestic violence comes from genetically unrelated males. Most children suffer at the hands of step-parents, usually the mother's sexual partner. It is much less common for the genetic parent to get violent with his genetic offspring. So its not "fathers" who are the ones causing most of these violent acts, but rather just the men the mother's are sleeping with.

 

[david starling]

All very sad examples of cruel and unwanted things that happen to some people in life, but it still doesn't give you the right to end another human being's life. The person inside the woman's womb isn't responsible that you were raped or beaten.

You are making an argument based on pity, implying that because someone's situation is dire, then it entitles them to commit murder. It doesn't. Just like theft isn't justified due to poverty, murder of an innocent isn't justified due to rape.

Orthodox Catholicism has a REAL problem when it comes to women's reproductive rights!

It's not "murder of a human being" until it has a functioning brain. Until then, it's a POTENTIAL human being, so no murder occurs in the early stages.

 

[Dirius]

A child is completely dependent on the parents, so they don't have choice. Choice is something taught & introduced. A fetus literally can not make a choice.

So is an adult person who is severely autistic and is completely dependant on their next of kin or guardian. Can you kill this person? Does this person have no rights?

 

[david starling]

So is an adult person who is severely autistic and is completely dependant on their next of kin or guardian. Can you kill this person? Does this person have no rights?

Human beings have a highly developed frontal cortex. That includes the severely autistic.

It does not include zygotes, embryos, or early stage fetuses.

 

[Dirius]

Human beings have a highly developed frontal cortex. That includes the severely autistic.

It does not include zygotes, embryos, or early stage fetuses.

Frontal cortex doesn't fully develop until you are an adult. And again - please give me the timing to the minute in which the frontal cortex is considered "highly developed".

Is it at 20 weeks? 22 weeks? 24 weeks? 3 years? 5 years? 12 years?

If you are going to use all of these random time frames to justify abortion, then at least provide the exact timing to the minute, so we can see when a human beings is or is not a person. Randomly throwing some large time period isn't really enough.

 

[david starling]

Frontal cortex doesn't fully develop until you are an adult. And again - please give me the timing to the minute in which the frontal cortex is considered "highly developed".

Is it at 20 weeks? 22 weeks? 24 weeks? 3 years? 5 years? 12 years?

If you are going to use all of these random time frames to justify abortion, then at least provide the exact timing to the minute, so we can see when a human beings is or is not a person. Randomly throwing some large time period isn't really enough.

I said highly developed, not fully developed. It's more complex than in most other species.

When do you think a potential human being becomes an existing human being?

 

[david starling]

Our culture uses first breath as the beginning of personhood. So does Natal-chart astrology.

But, I wouldn't apply that as the measure of when a fetus should be considered a human being.

 

[Dirius]

I said highly developed, not fully developed. It's more complex than in most other species.

When do you think a potential human being becomes an existing human being?

Your dna is human since you begin to exist.

Oks its more complex than that. What is the time frame then? because just saying "well when somethng happens" is not the proper way to handle such a complex system. You need an exact moment.

So what is the exact moment?

 

[david starling]

Your dna is human since you begin to exist.

Oks its more complex than that. What is the time frame then? because just saying "well when somethng happens" is not the proper way to handle such a complex system. You need an exact moment.

So what is the exact moment?

Are you considering using an exact time for when a potential human being becomes an Individual person, for replacement of the time to draw charts, instead of first breath?

It would definitely vary somewhat from one Individual to another. The Ascendant would be impossible to verify, unlike with first breath.

Bottom line concerning abortions: Sooner is better than later, and contraception is best of all.

 

[chay]

I'm not saying this is justified, nor that it is how the world should work. But studies do show that males may act more violent in a way to assert authority or exert control over others, particularly children and women living in the household. In a traditional environment, when the parent is the breadwinner (not neccesarily the sole one) of the household, he is more likely to feel respected or fulfillled, and studies show violence is usually much less common.

One of the reasons domestic violence has been escalating in the west is due to a degradation of the standards of living in the population, which is caused by our larger dependancy on government assistance and interference in our lives.

However, the most common source of domestic violence comes from genetically unrelated males. Most children suffer at the hands of step-parents, usually the mother's sexual partner. It is much less common for the genetic parent to get violent with his genetic offspring. So its not "fathers" who are the ones causing most of these violent acts, but rather just the men the mother's are sleeping with.

Well here's hoping that abortion being legal & accessible contributes to women's empowerment so that they have the bravery to also abort an abusive male from their lives.

 

[chay]

I actually think that the abortion argument is political and misogynistic.

 

[chay]

Can you please tell me the exact weight and measurement when it stops being a candidate for being murdered?

Is it a 2 pounds.? 1 pound? 50 grams? And what size? 20 inches? 30 inches?

Which is the moment when it stops being a "tiny" thing?

When does a fetus become a person to someone not related to it? You could be around a woman with one inside her and have no idea it exists. So it's a theory or an idea to someone uninvolved.

 

[Dirius]

I actually think that the abortion argument is political and misogynistic.

Well most abortions worldwide are of female fetuses. Its called sex-selective abortions.

Countries such as China, the aborted babies are almost exclusively women. Same thing in Cuba. Same thing in India.

Same in Canada. Same in the U.S.

A lot of "female empowerment" right?