If a man doesn't want children he should use birth control. That is the number one way a man can prevent a woman either having a child he doesn't want to pay for or having an abortion he doesn't approve of. Please tell me how this is not correct? If a couple decide to get pregnant and they worry something may come up that makes the woman decide to abort, they could make a legal agreement beforehand saying if she changes her mind he can raise the child.
Abortion - Your Opinion
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If a man doesn't want children he should use birth control. That is the number one way a man can prevent a woman either having a child he doesn't want to pay for or having an abortion he doesn't approve of. Please tell me how this is not correct? If a couple decide to get pregnant and they worry something may come up that makes the woman decide to abort, they could make a legal agreement beforehand saying if she changes her mind he can raise the child.
Dirius
Well-known member
Studies show most violent inscidents in the house against children usually come from step-fathers (or mommy's drug addicted new boyfriend) than from genetic fathers, or from unrelated males in general.
The inscidence of violence also goes up with unemployment and government dependancy (wellfare and social programs). This is explained by the logic that a man will try to "assert authority" through violence, if he can't do it as a provider (which is the natural paternal role in the family).
Dirius
Well-known member
Because according to the poster's logic, the existance of abortion automatically makes all pregnancies to be selective - a matter of choice. The only reason you keep the child is because you choose to do it, thus men should be able to get the same choice. If abortion wasn't legal, it would be perfectly acceptable for the man to have to pay child support.
Dirius
Well-known member
Why does there have to be an alternative when the pregnancy comes from consensual sex? The function of the sexual act is for reproduction, regardless of whether we use it mostly as a pleasure source. To put it simple: each time you are having sex you are, in a way, risking pregnancy, even if the chances are much lower due to contraception.
It is a gambit people take each time they choose to have consensual sex. But somehow people complain whenever the odds are not in their favour. Its like playing a hand of poker and complaining you got unlucky with quad Aces against a royal flush. It happens.
I don't agree another person has to die as a result of your mistake. You don't get to kill a human being just because its inconvinient for you.
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They do have to pay child support here. The existence of societal laws and birth control make all pregnancies selective. Except in Texas where the right to select is taken from a woman. A man has a choice not to impregnate a woman. When a woman gets pregnant she is made responsible for the consequences. So if men don't want abortions they should not cause unplanned or unwanted pregnancies. The way to prevent pregnancy is birth control, if a woman is solely responsible for birth control & chooses abortion as the method (which I also think is immoral, but still not my choice to interfere) then that's how it goes. But if a man feels strongly that unborn children should not be aborted then he should be preaching to other men who feel the same to ensure they use birth control and not be the cause of an abortion. It takes TWO humans to cause an abortion.
I should add that a man that demands a woman have an abortion, or changes his mind about sticking around once shes pregnant should also have taken responsibility for birth control. It does seem that abortion is something women decide to do alone, but many a male "changes his mind" about keeping or being there for a child as well, the difference being they can leave, there is no human growing inside him.
Dirius
Well-known member
Then from the perspective of your argument, abortion ends up being just another form of birth control (it literally prevents the birth of the child), which in your argument, the woman is refusing to use.
So everything you've mentioned is a result of the woman refusing to use the last method of contraception. And that is solely the woman's choice. If she wants to be able to have an abortion, then men shouldn't have to pay for her choice.
Lol so if you had casual sex and she got pregnant you'd raise the child? Would it not have been easier to use birth control? If sex is for reproduction alone do men only ever have sex to produce a child? Inconvenient is not the word for a life sentence 3 ways.
Dirius
Well-known member
Condoms are only 99% effective. Even if you use one, the possibility of getting pregnant still exists. You want to be 100% certain you won't be stuck with a child, then don't have sex. Every other method, even contraceptives, has a chance of resulting in pregnancy.
The idea behind your argument is that somehow people are not responsible for their own choices, and a way for people to justify murder.
If you don't want that to be solely the woman's choice you should not be impregnating her. If you use birth control you prevent abortion. If you leave the responsibility of birth control to someone else, you are as responsible for the child or abortion as they are. It doesn't have to be that a woman has all the power...if you don't give it to her in the first place. You keep implying its all up to a woman. It's not if you take responsibility for your own contraception. It's a mans choice too.
Dirius
Well-known member
Both of them have the choice to use some form of contraception, but only the woman has the choice to have the abortion. The woman has more choices available than the man, at different stages.
Lets say the man chooses not to wear a condom, while the woman chooses not to take birth control pill. Both choose to "risk it". But once she gets pregnant, the woman has an additional choice to have an abortion, or sign away her parental rights. The man does not.
The man does know in that moment of choice that if he has unprotected sex that possibility arises, so it's still his choice.
I think blaming only women for abortion is just another thing that if thought about properly makes no sense. Like victim blaming.
Dirius
Well-known member
The original argument from the poster was that abortion is a choice (that should exist). That choice ultimately falls to the woman. The circumstances do involve the man, but she is the one who ultimately chooses to have the abortion or not.
I don't think that is true as far as "unplanned" pregnancy goes that's two people, if a man hasn't taken responsibility he has made the choice to give her the power of choice. In the circumstances of choice where there are life threatening or limiting factors, hopefully a couple would make a choice together, but ultimately if the woman's life is at risk, she shouldn't have to die to keep a mans baby alive. If the infant had severe disabilities or a short life expectancy I guess that would also be a woman's choice, unless the man committed to raising the child alone. So once again..he does have a choice.
Its a manipulative cop out to blame conception and the outcome of abortion totally on a woman. How is it not? If a woman has to raise a child alone, she's responsible for a lot more than child support covers. She doesn't get to only pay for a percentage of that child's life or only be available every second weekend. If you get to a point where a woman has to decide to have an abortion, you've already waived responsibility for this child's life & don't have the right to choose. How can a gender that refuses to take responsibility for contraception blame abortion on a woman? How can a person who wont use birth control on their own body for a few hours (lets be generous) and causes a pregnancy have the gall to expect a woman to grow an entire human in her body? If you didn't want a baby to die, or if you didn't plan to raise a child together you shouldn't have caused a pregnancy. I've got a flock of chickens...they're responsible for every egg they lay, but the rooster is responsible for causing chicks.
Is Abortion a Choice that Should Exist? Yes. Do men have a choice in whether an abortion occurs? Yes.
waybread
Well-known member
Where is the child's freedom over his own body, a choice not to be dismembered?
Do we get to decide on someone else's body all of the sudden? Abortion process usually involves tearing out limb by limb.
This is totally incorrect, Dirius. Most abortions occur at such an early stage that the fetus is tiny.
But this is what bothers me about the anti-women's rights crowd. So many of them are ignorant of women's reproduction and the therapeutic abortion process.
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
He has NO Future career
I read a lot of support for Britney Spears and Rihanna back when she was with Chris Brown, now it's time to throw Future's CDs in the trash or delete his MPs off the stream (and while you're at it, has Marilyn Manson been thrown in jail yet for sexual abuse of his girlfriends?).Back on topic, when will the US constitution add a new amendment or two: The right to universal health care and one of these health care options is an abortion.
waybread
Well-known member
Dirius, it's time to stop pretending to be so clueless.
As I pointed out in my initial post on the previous page, many unwanted pregnancies are the result of failed birth control. Look up the failure rate of condoms. I think it's around 10%. Condoms can slip off inside the woman's vagina, notably after a man ejaculates and his penis reverts to its smaller flacid size, and such condoms don't necessarily contain all of the semen.
Some men don't feel sufficently relaxed about having to put on a condom to use them, perhaps relying on early withdrawal. You can imagine the pregnancy rate with that method. Ditto for the rhythm method.
Birth control pills should not be taken during a woman's entire fertile period for health reasons. Cervical caps, diaphragms, and other mechanical barriers have the same problem of slippage. IUDs today are the most effective, but the early ones had real health problems, so many women today still prefer to steer clear of them.
Convenience???
Give me a major break. Look up ectopic pregnancy, pre-eclampsia, and incompatible blood types. What about women who must be on medication for their own health and even survival, when that medication would harm a fetus? Think of cancer treatments and anti-psychotic drugs. Would you personally want to carry a fetus to term, knowing its severe birth defects would make it unable to live more than a few hours? Would you personally want to carry the fetus of your rapist-- or father?
Do you know how many girls have been beaten or thrown out of the house when they informed their parent they were pregnant? (A real problem with deeply "religious" families.)
You are not a father. You have not been close to a pregnant spouse or partner, to see the sorts of health issues many pregnant women and some children endure.
What about raising the child, from birth through age 18 or so? What if you were indeed married-- but very poor and didn't see how you and your husband could afford baby #5.
You're the one with the all the convenience, Dirius.
As I pointed out in my initial post on the previous page, many unwanted pregnancies are the result of failed birth control. Look up the failure rate of condoms. I think it's around 10%. Condoms can slip off inside the woman's vagina, notably after a man ejaculates and his penis reverts to its smaller flacid size, and such condoms don't necessarily contain all of the semen.
Some men don't feel sufficently relaxed about having to put on a condom to use them, perhaps relying on early withdrawal. You can imagine the pregnancy rate with that method. Ditto for the rhythm method.
Birth control pills should not be taken during a woman's entire fertile period for health reasons. Cervical caps, diaphragms, and other mechanical barriers have the same problem of slippage. IUDs today are the most effective, but the early ones had real health problems, so many women today still prefer to steer clear of them.
Convenience???
Give me a major break. Look up ectopic pregnancy, pre-eclampsia, and incompatible blood types. What about women who must be on medication for their own health and even survival, when that medication would harm a fetus? Think of cancer treatments and anti-psychotic drugs. Would you personally want to carry a fetus to term, knowing its severe birth defects would make it unable to live more than a few hours? Would you personally want to carry the fetus of your rapist-- or father?
Do you know how many girls have been beaten or thrown out of the house when they informed their parent they were pregnant? (A real problem with deeply "religious" families.)
You are not a father. You have not been close to a pregnant spouse or partner, to see the sorts of health issues many pregnant women and some children endure.
What about raising the child, from birth through age 18 or so? What if you were indeed married-- but very poor and didn't see how you and your husband could afford baby #5.
You're the one with the all the convenience, Dirius.
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