Abortion - Your Opinion

Your Take?


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waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, just to correct another one of your misconceptions.

People-- male or female-- can sympathize with a victim of sexual abuse (and many such victims are boys, as you know) without having had the same experience themselves.

I have never been raped, thank goodness, but I don't think there's a woman on the planet who has not experienced some form of sexual assault. Sometimes from a man whom she has every reason to trust. It's not always the stranger in the dark alley, alcohol or drug related.

There are psychological descriptors for people who are unable to sympathize with another person's pain or heart-breaking dilemma.

Sociopath comes to mind.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Bottom line, Dirius: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion?

(Assuming no direct connection.)

On what basis is this "taking a life" unacceptable to you when you are probably fine with capital punishment, warfare, police shootings, drunk driving accidents, and the disposal of unwanted embryos collected for in vitro fertilization?

Are you even capable of feeling honest-to-God empathy for other human beings?

After they're born, that is.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, I have to ask: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

You seem ignorant of some real basics of female reproduction and birth control.

As an extreme right-winger, you have no interest in a social safety net for poor pregnant women, new moms, and poor children. You cannot imagine that some women who want an abortion are legally married.

You cannot imagine a reason why a woman might seek an abortion beyond mere "convenience." I don't think you had even heard of ectopic pregnancy before I brought it up.

Because pregnancies due to rape and incest are highly sensitive topics, you imagine you can deny their reality merely by labeling them "emotional." Forcing an under-aged girl who was gang-raped to bear a child is barbaric.

If you wish to make the argument that abortion is wrong because "all life is sacred," then you must oppose capital punishment, war, in vitro fertilization methods, driving drunk or without seatbelts, and other high-risk behaviors. If you don't do this, then you have no moral justification for condemning women's autonomy over their bodies.

Just hypocrisy.

Dirius,

If a fetus has human rights, you can't step over them, regardless of your particular situation. The same rights that protect you and me, are also inherit to every other human. Its as simple as that.

Let me ask you something, does fetus have rights? or does it not? Jurisprudence and legal treaties have recognized that fetus have human rights to some extent. Let me give you two examples:

a) A fetus is capable of inherting property for a bequeather - thus the law recognizes its right to inherit property.
b) A pregnant woman can't suffer capital punishment, given she is considered to be carrying "2 lives" not one.

The law of most countries treats fetuses as human beings, separate from the mothers. Its court rulings that have allowed abortion, while usually not denying the humanity of the fetus, but rather indicating that abortion can't be legally persecuted. The best example is Roe V Wade, which doesn't deny the rights of the fetus, it just accepts that persecuting abortion is imposible (because the state does not have the right to intrude in a private medical matter).
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Bottom line, Dirius: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion?

(Assuming no direct connection.)

On what basis is this "taking a life" unacceptable to you when you are probably fine with capital punishment, warfare, police shootings, drunk driving accidents, and the disposal of unwanted embryos collected for in vitro fertilization?

Are you even capable of feeling honest-to-God empathy for other human beings?

After they're born, that is.

This is actually a great question. To me it is a matter of principal: I respect other's human rights. I can't condone the destruction of someone elses human rights. However preventing abortion has no benefit to me as a person. In fact preventing abortions is detrimental for me from a social point of view.

Most women who are in favour or would get an abortion are feminists, leftists, progressives, etc. And you are telling me these women want to cull and eradicate the next generation of leftists? In al fairness to some extent, you are removing my likely future political opposition - so in some way abortion does benefit me. But then again, they do have human rights - so we must respect them.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
I don't justify them, Dirius. So whom exactly do you mean?

You are familiar with the "missing girls" problem in India and China, where parents obtain amniocentesis at a gestation time when the sex of the fetus can be determined, and abort female fetuses. This practice has been outlawed, but continues. The result has been an imbalence of male over female births. A big problem when the boys grow up and brides get trafficked for them.

Here again, you demonstrate your ignorance of pregnancy and fetal development. The less invasive method for determining fetal sex is by ultrasound, usually around 18 weeks into a pregnancy. Amniocentesis is possible a few weeks earlier, but with some risk to the fetus. There are some earlier methods, usually used to detect fetal abnormalities. The main methods are essentially available only after the early term of a pregnancy.

Sex selection is possible with in vitro fertilization. But you know about those frozen embryos that are discarded when no longer needed. Is that murder to you?

Yes you are justfying them - you said its a woman's choice. You are in favour of abortion, so why would an abortion in this particular case be at all wrong? its after all, just another abortion. Abortion is in the end another tool that it is used to target women.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Whereas you seem to believe your actual lack of experiences and willful ignorance makes you more qualified to direct others’ actions?

That is grade A chutzpah, boy!

I don't do drugs either. I have no experiences using drugs. I don't need to do drugs, and experience its effects to understand they are bad for your body and mind.

The issue is about personal rights, something we all have, and everyone can cast an opinion on.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I provided plenty of reasons why abortion should be legal....and guess what? It is legal in most places, my country included. So legally I do have the right to decide if I want to abort an embryo. Funny how you're all for autonomy except for women.

Yes, just like legally you could also own slaves at some point. The fact that something is legal doesn't make it morally correct, and it doesn't mean its not invading someone elses personal rights.

I am all in favour of autonomy for women, but a fetus is another being on its own. You don't get to kill it because its convinient to you.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
If you wish to make the argument that abortion is wrong because "all life is sacred," then you must oppose capital punishment, war, in vitro fertilization methods, driving drunk or without seatbelts, and other high-risk behaviors. If you don't do this, then you have no moral justification for condemning women's autonomy over their bodies.

Answering this specifically:

a) I've never made an argument that life is "sacred". My position isn't due to religion or theology, its about legal principles, human rights and jurisprudence. I believe everyone is entitled to human rights, these are inalienable.

b) I do oppose capital punishment, and have said so over the many political threads (I think i recently talked about this with david on another thread). Do you think I would be in favour of the state legally executing a person? of course not! Besides, a lot of innocent men and women have died - and there is no going back from death. I'm not in favour of the death penalty for that reason too, because you can't turn it back. Neither can you do it with years of impronment, but you can at least provide some form of compensation (its not the best but it is something).

c) I'm not in favour of war. Who is? War is caused by politicians, not by innocent people.

d) I've said plenty of times I am against all forms of drug use, their abuse, and how they affect others. This extends to alcohol abuse. And I've actually talked about the dangers of drunk driving in other threads. I'm not against substance use in the privacy of your own home, but I am against using drugs or alcohol in public places, because you may endanger others.

e) I'm not particularly in favour of IVF, because it creates embryos for the sole purpose of failing. Most embryo's aren't viable, and fail to implant. It is only when the embryo has been succesfully implanted that it will develop into a full human being, which is when they can be considered to be recipients of natural rights. An unimplanted embryo still hasn't gone through the process of implantation, which would determine whether it can develop into a full human or not, thus making the point moot - given an unimplanted embryo has no chances of developing. But once they have been implanted, and are developing, we have no right to stop it. I'm not in favour of producing embryos just for the purpose of discarding them.

If you don't do this, then you have no moral justification for condemning women's autonomy over their bodies.


Well I guess I have passed all of them - so according to your post, I'm free to talk about the issue of abortion now. Thank you for your time
:joyful::joyful::joyful:
 
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chiamaria

Well-known member
I have to address this part that waybread said:

Dirius, I have to ask: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

If you don't think that abortion is murder, then you might think this is an ok argument, but if you're talking to someone who truly believes that abortion is the taking of a human life, then using your phrasing, that person can respond with:

Waybread, I have to ask: what's it to you if someone on the street gets murdered? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

So because it doesn't harm you, who cares if someone gets murdered? You don't have to be religious to find murder of any kind wrong. Are religious arguments the only valid ones? For someone who's against abortion categorically, a human is a human inside or outside a womb, so it doesn't matter how they were murdered. In their eyes a murder took place and arguments like yours would just dissolve for them.

What's it to you if someone robs a bank? Or if someone rapes a stranger? It's a stupid argument. If someone finds something morally wrong, they don't necessarily have to be the direct recipient of said transgression. Some would call it having principles.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Dirius;1134447[U said:
]If a fetus has human rights[/U], you can't step over them, regardless of your particular situation. The same rights that protect you and me, are also inherit to every other human. Its as simple as that.

Don't be silly, Dirius. Does an embryo harvested and stored in a fertility clinic have rights? You wouldn't even visually recognize a fertilized egg as a human being.

Society does not give young children or imprisoned criminals the same rights as adults or law-abiders, respectively. A citizen of a country has more rights than does a tourist.

If a child in a famine zone is starving to death, doesn't it have a right to food? A right to life? Or is it OK with you for the baby to die after birth?

Rights are always situational and conditional.

Let me ask you something, does fetus have rights? or does it not? Jurisprudence and legal treaties have recognized that fetus have human rights to some extent. Let me give you two examples:

a) A fetus is capable of inherting property for a bequeather - thus the law recognizes its right to inherit property.
b) A pregnant woman can't suffer capital punishment, given she is considered to be carrying "2 lives" not one.

Cite your sources, Dirius. You enjoy playing fast and loose with your purported facts. I think you make up most of them.

But let's get real.

I recently updated the beneficiaries of the unspent balance of one of my pension plans, namely my two children. The plan allowed me to include their children as beneficiaries if my kids predecease me, whether their children are now alive, not yet conceived, or entirely hypothetical. By your rationale, a non-existant child who may never happen qualifies as a human being merely because of inheritance arrangements.

In the case of an unborn fetus, obviously the inheritance provisions will end if the pregnancy terminates,whether through miscarriage or abortion. A parallel is that if I name an actual person in my will who dies before I do, obviously that deceased person won't inherit part of my estate. People leave provisions in their wills for the care of their beloved pets. That doesn't make the pets human with full legal rights.

The law of most countries treats fetuses as human beings, separate from the mothers. Its court rulings that have allowed abortion, while usually not denying the humanity of the fetus, but rather indicating that abortion can't be legally persecuted. The best example is Roe V Wade, which doesn't deny the rights of the fetus, it just accepts that persecuting abortion is imposible (because the state does not have the right to intrude in a private medical matter).

I don't think Roe vs. Wade even mentions "the rights of the fetus." This SCOTUS decision is on-line. You can look it up and cite where it might make such a point.

There are many legal cases regarding rights that clash. Then whose rights prevail, and why? A recent example was a baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, claiming his religion opposed homosexuality. But gay people are entitled to freedom from discrimination. So whose rights prevail? (The court ruled in favor of the gay couple.)

Should a drug-addicted mother be prosecuted for passing her addiction through the placenta to the fetus?

The criminal code of Canada expressly defines a human being as one who is separated from the body of the mother.
https://www.arcc-cdac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/63-fetal-rights-in-canada.pdf

I realize that you love to over-simplify issues to make them easier on yourself.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Don't be silly, Dirius. Does an embryo harvested and stored in a fertility clinic have rights? You wouldn't even visually recognize a fertilized egg as a human being.

Society does not give young children or imprisoned criminals the same rights as adults or law-abiders, respectively. A citizen of a country has more rights than does a tourist.

If a child in a famine zone is starving to death, doesn't it have a right to food? A right to life? Or is it OK with you for the baby to die after birth?

Rights are always situational and conditional.
.

Our societies make a distinction between natural rights and constitutional rights.

Natural rights are inalienable and are inherent to every human being, and considered to be basic rights which include the rights to life, liberty and property; they can't be modified or trespassed by someone else's rights.

Constitutional rights are not the same, and usually meant to limit the power of the state against the citizen, dictating which specific rights you are allowed to have within your society. They can sometimes be conditional depending on your status as citizen of the nation. They are designed to dictate the relationship between state and citizen.

Non-citizens, young children or imprisoned criminals have limited constitutional rights (according to the redacted constitution of the place): they usually can't vote (depends on country or state), they can't own weapons, they can't drive purchase alcoholic beverages, etc. Depends on the place and the constitution. However all them still have natural rights.

Natural rights can be suspended on extreme situation of - usually when breaking the law, but they require a certain amount of directives and qualifications, and the person needs to be informed of the situation and has the right to defend itself from such actions (through the courts excerzising their defense). You can't just take someone's liberty or property from the get go, the person must be informed so he or she can defend itself and take proper legal action. For example, Habeas Corpus is a legal recourse to protect yourself from such actions.

An embryo in a test tube does not have rights, because it is undeveloped, but implanted embryo is the recipient of the same natural rights as you and me because it is developing into a full human being, and jurisprudence of most nations regonizes as such. I gave you a few examples before, which I will develop further below to respond to your next quotation.

Cite your sources, Dirius. You enjoy playing fast and loose with your purported facts. I think you make up most of them.

But let's get real.

I recently updated the beneficiaries of the unspent balance of one of my pension plans, namely my two children. The plan allowed me to include their children as beneficiaries if my kids predecease me, whether their children are now alive, not yet conceived, or entirely hypothetical. By your rationale, a non-existant child who may never happen qualifies as a human being merely because of inheritance arrangements.

In the case of an unborn fetus, obviously the inheritance provisions will end if the pregnancy terminates,whether through miscarriage or abortion. A parallel is that if I name an actual person in my will who dies before I do, obviously that deceased person won't inherit part of my estate. People leave provisions in their wills for the care of their beloved pets. That doesn't make the pets human with full legal rights.

International covenant on civil and political rights (united nations) - Part III, Article 6.

5. Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women.

International law, and the law of most countries where capital punishment is legal, it is forbidden to execute a woman while pregnant. Not that the issue arises often (if at all in history), but the legal principle is that a pregnant woman is carrying two lives, not just one, and you can't legally end the second life. Most nations have similar laws in their civil codes, such as the U.S.

18 US Code 3596,
(b) Pregnant Woman.— A sentence of death shall not be carried out upon a woman while she is pregnant.

Most laws ascribe to the principle that the fetus enjoys the right to life, and were crafted within that parameter. If the fetus does not enjoy such right, there is no need to be concerned with its safety, and penalties for injury or death would not apply. However, the law of most countries also recognizes that death in utero can be akin to murder or providing liability for injuries.

In the case of Mone vs Greyhound, the court recognised the unwrongfull death of an unborn child as a "person" - by consideration that a viable fetus is defined as such - under a wrongful death status, and overruled a previous case (Leccese v. McDonough). A similar ruling occurs in Commonwealth vs Cas, where a fetus was considered a person in the case of vehicular accident.

The legal predisposition of such rulings is that a viable fetus is by definition a person worthy of life, and compensation is akin to the same of a regular person, based on the idea that the viable fetus is developing into a regular human being, and his life can't be taken away, or in such cases, treated as the death of any other human being. Fetal rights are thus contingent on the idea that a viable fetus will eventually be born into a full human , and by extension are legally protected from injury or attack, and punishment for such actions is taken as if it was the same for any other person.

The contigency of birth extends these rights to property: a fetus can legally inherit if he is conceived or born after its predecessor or bequeaters death, assuming the fetus is viable and will eventually be born. But the law treats the fetus as if having been alive at the time of conception.

For example, we find this conditions within state law in the U.S.
Louisiana Civil Code, Art. 940. Same; unborn child
An unborn child conceived at the death of the decedent and thereafter born alive shall be considered to exist at the death of the decedent.

Although a minor point, the terminology refers to the fetus as "unborn child", which in jurisprudence is of significance. However the key is that most laws and rulings treat fetuses as prospective children and humans. The ruling of Christian vs Carter establishes that a will created before the conception of the child is invalid, because it goes against the interests of the progenitor, while providing the status of "living" to the fetus.

Now the law varies from country to country, but the legal principle of most nations is and has always been that a child in the utero is defined as the legal claimant for any sort of property owned by a pre-deceased father. There are legal void as in every legal system, but the law does work on the principle that the fetus is by all means a human being worthy of protection and entitled to certain rights.

I don't think Roe vs. Wade even mentions "the rights of the fetus." This SCOTUS decision is on-line. You can look it up and cite where it might make such a point.

There are many legal cases regarding rights that clash. Then whose rights prevail, and why? A recent example was a baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, claiming his religion opposed homosexuality. But gay people are entitled to freedom from discrimination. So whose rights prevail? (The court ruled in favor of the gay couple.)

Should a drug-addicted mother be prosecuted for passing her addiction through the placenta to the fetus?

The criminal code of Canada expressly defines a human being as one who is separated from the body of the mother.
https://www.arcc-cdac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/63-fetal-rights-in-canada.pdf

I realize that you love to over-simplify issues to make them easier on yourself.

I didn't say Roe v Wade mentions the rights of the fetus. I said it did not deny them. Roe v Wade is framed in a manner which is about the government's oversight over private medical procedure, and its protection under the constitution, but it does not express the idea that the fetus is not alive.
Legally speaking, in some countries, a child can sue for a tort claim against its own mother for prenatal injuries.

The supreme court reversed the previous ruling, and ruled in favour of the baker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission
In a 7–2 decision, the Court ruled on narrow grounds that the Commission did not employ religious neutrality, violating Masterpiece owner Jack Phillips's rights to free exercise, and reversed the Commission's decision.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, once again you jump to (unfounded) conclusions. You have no--zero--zilch idea of the political beliefs of women who seek an abortions.

This isn't about politics, Dirius. The Catholic church is anti-abortion, yet it is a faith you now despise.

For you to fantasize that women seeking an abortion consider the likely political beliefs of their children is worse than appalling. It is sheer ignorance.

But oh, no, you're the guy who knows so little about the biology of pregnancy who nonetheless who claims the final word on abortion.

Start looking at women's reproductive rights, Dirius. You might just find some. Do you think women have any reproductive rights? If so, what do you think they are?

This is actually a great question. To me it is a matter of principal: I respect other's human rights. I can't condone the destruction of someone elses human rights. However preventing abortion has no benefit to me as a person. In fact preventing abortions is detrimental for me from a social point of view.

Most women who are in favour or would get an abortion are feminists, leftists, progressives, etc. And you are telling me these women want to cull and eradicate the next generation of leftists? In al fairness to some extent, you are removing my likely future political opposition - so in some way abortion does benefit me. But then again, they do have human rights - so we must respect them.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, I don't think you even read these studies. If you did, you would say that they are suggestive, not conclusive.

You have to look at sample size over a given time period if it's an original study; and then whether the conclusions drawn can legitimately be extrapolated to a much larger population. If it's a literature review paper, again, look and see whether the studies cited actually support the authors' conclusions.

You've assumed a lax sleep-around Mom with a live-in no-good boyfriend. This isn't the case for many blended families where the adults are married.

Then look at what the data are telling you. A higher risk of child abuse with a step-parent actually does not say that it is all that common in terms of the entire population of blended families.

But none of this is actually the point of this thread.

 

waybread

Well-known member
Yes you are justfying them - you said its a woman's choice. You are in favour of abortion, so why would an abortion in this particular case be at all wrong? its after all, just another abortion. Abortion is in the end another tool that it is used to target women.

Dirius, just because you are incapable of distinguishing between reasons for women seeking an abortion does not mean that nobody else is.

Let me be clear. I support the current law of the land.

Abortion is legal in both the US and Canada, countries where I am a citizen.

Both countries place restrictions on public funding for abortion and and the date by which an induced labor would effectively mean a live birth, even if premature. Unwanted mid-and late-term pregnancies have to be treated on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes it is a humane, caring decision-- however tragic-- to abort a fetus with severe defects who would suffer from a very brief life of pain if brought to term. Sometimes abortion is an act of compassion under tragic circumstances.

Sadly, some cultures (maybe your own?) have a long history of favoring sons over daughters. You obviously think that males are superior to females.

Under China's (recently discontinued) one-child policy, couples were understandably desperate to ensure that this one child would be a desirable son.

In Hindu India, the custom was for the eldest son to preside over his parents' funeral rites. Where life expectancy was low, this led to a strategy of having "an heir and a spare" in case the parents outlived their eldest son. With a 50/50 chance of a couple producing either a son or a daughter, couples who wished to limit family size and ensure at least two sons, might well have a large number of children-- but with most of the daughters not actually wanted. In India, as well, daughters were expensive because the parents had to provide them with a sizeable dowry upon marriage. For couples wishing to limit family size, aborting female fetuses seemed like the answer.

Western feminists are appalled by this kind of calculus. For one thing, a surplus of males over females in the now-marriageable age cohort has led to trafficking of young women as brides for "surplus" young males.

The solution for many problems in developing nations seems to be enhanced education for girls. I can go into this if you're interested. Which I doubt.

But you knew nothing about any of this, did you Dirius?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Yes, just like legally you could also own slaves at some point. The fact that something is legal doesn't make it morally correct, and it doesn't mean its not invading someone elses personal rights.

I am all in favour of autonomy for women, but a fetus is another being on its own. You don't get to kill it because its convinient to you.

Dirius, what circumstances can you acknowledge where a woman's decision to seek an abortion is not merely a matter of "convenience"?

[Hint: I've reviewed some of them multiple times. Further hints available upon request.]

I don't think you actually care that much about human rights. You're anti-visible minorities if they happen to be poor. You would force a homeless woman to bear a child she doesn't want and cannot properly care for, yet claim no responsibility for the rights of the child after birth.

For you, Dirius, a day before birth, a fetus has inviolable rights to life. Yet a day after birth, the baby has no rights to life.

That's hypocritical.

What rights does a dirt-poor baby have, after it is born? And what would it take to ensure those rights?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Chia, let's just straighten out a few points.

You start from the principle that abortion is murder. I do not.

A huge dilemma for people like you is what happens to unused frozen embryos in fertility clinics. Is it murder when unwanted embryos are destroyed? Should common treatments for infertile couples be halted? Should all of those stored embryos be brought to term?

Are you familiar with ectopic pregnancy, pre-eclampsia, or the dilemma of pregnant women who must take life-saving drugs to preserve their own health-- that would nevertheless harm their fetus? Is it murder to abort a fetus with severe defects that would have just a few hours to live in severe pain as a baby?

Can you imagine abortion as an act of real compassion?

If abortion is murder to you, then what is a natural miscarriage? Involuntary manslaughter?

As a relatively young fertile woman yourself, I hope you can imagine yourself in the position of being forced--in police-state manner--to bear a child you truly do not want. If you cannot think this one through beyond a mental blockage, please read more widely about the range of female conception experience. Some of it may shock you. You probably know women in your cohort who have had abortions. Talk to them.

I have to address this part that waybread said:

Dirius, I have to ask: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

If you don't think that abortion is murder, then you might think this is an ok argument, but if you're talking to someone who truly believes that abortion is the taking of a human life, then using your phrasing, that person can respond with:

Waybread, I have to ask: what's it to you if someone on the street gets murdered? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

So because it doesn't harm you, who cares if someone gets murdered? You don't have to be religious to find murder of any kind wrong. Are religious arguments the only valid ones? For someone who's against abortion categorically, a human is a human inside or outside a womb, so it doesn't matter how they were murdered. In their eyes a murder took place and arguments like yours would just dissolve for them.

What's it to you if someone robs a bank? Or if someone rapes a stranger? It's a stupid argument. If someone finds something morally wrong, they don't necessarily have to be the direct recipient of said transgression. Some would call it having principles.

I hope we're clear that Dirius is the lapsed Catholic, not me. I was raised in a secular post-Christian family. I converted to Judaism to marry my ex-husband, but have been religiously inactive for many years. I do have spiritual beliefs. (Jews, incidentally, have a wide range of beliefs about abortion: they do not all agree.)

In the case of serious criminal offenses like murder or armed robbery, the argument is that the state has a stake in maintaining an orderly society. This is why a state can prosecute a murder even if the victim's family is opposed to doing so. Presumably you also have a stake in the state maintaining an orderly society free of violence against its residents.

If abortion is not defined as murder, then it is harder to make a case for state control of your uterus. There is no disorder or threat to your society if you seek an abortion.

I don't see an embryo as a human being. It may become a human being. But it may not, as in the cases of miscarriage or discarded embryos from infertility treatments.

During the gestation period, a fetus reaches a stage where it could survive outside the uterus as a viable baby, however seriously premature. Before that time, most jurisdictions that permit early-term abortion do not define it as murder. The fetus is not yet and perhaps not ever a human being.

After that viability time, there is a hard set of decisions for a pregnant woman contemplating abortion to make; for example, if she learns that the fetus has such severe birth defects that it is unlikely to survive more than a few painful days beyond birth.

Think of how, in some cases, abortion might be an act of compassion.

I have two beloved adult children and one amazing grandchild, incidentally. I am all for marriage and the family: a real conservative value.
 

david starling

Well-known member
"Spontaneous abortion" is the scientific term for the euphemism, "miscarriage".

About half of all abortions during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy are spontaneous.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Oh, great, Dirius. Give us some examples of unalienable "natural rights." Those wouldn't include such things as an unwanted baby born to a homeless drug addict being guaranteed proper nutrition and medical care at taxpayers expense would they?

What property rights does that baby have? Get real.

The truth is that "natural rights" are trampled out of existence unless enshrined in law; and sometimes not even them.

You are apparently unfamiliar with the US Constitution. It is available on-line. Much of it sorts out authority reserved to the three branches of the government. The US Constitution also grants a lot of legislative authority to the individual states.

I don't suppose you care to explain how any of this is supposed to work in a right-wing dictatorship.

Your ignorance of human reproduction continues to appall me. Modern in vitro fertilization does not involve "test tubes." That is a metaphor, or figure of speech. Think petri dish. Then blastocyst is then implanted back into the woman's uterus.

Fetal rights have no serious reality in law in the way that you describe them. As I explained yesterday, it's easy to bequeath to your child's unborn children, if any, a share of your child's inheritance if s/he predeceases you. But this stipulation can hold even if your child has no offspring, real or potential.

Delayed execution of a pregnant woman doesn't mean that the fetus has rights. It means that it is barbaric to execute a pregnant woman. As you noted, such a case seldom arises.

Why do you hate the idea of women having autonomy over their own bodies? What about her rights?

You don't think that homeless babies, hours after birth, have Constitutional or natural rights as you defined them. They have no right to food, shelter, or hygiene. You cannot stand the thought of the state providing such babies with the basic necessities of life. That's what you would call socialism. Your fall-back position is condemning the mothers.

Our societies make a distinction between natural rights and constitutional rights.

Natural rights are inalienable and are inherent to every human being, and considered to be basic rights which include the rights to life, liberty and property; they can't be modified or trespassed by someone else's rights.

Constitutional rights are not the same, and usually meant to limit the power of the state against the citizen, dictating which specific rights you are allowed to have within your society. They can sometimes be conditional depending on your status as citizen of the nation. They are designed to dictate the relationship between state and citizen.

Non-citizens, young children or imprisoned criminals have limited constitutional rights (according to the redacted constitution of the place): they usually can't vote (depends on country or state), they can't own weapons, they can't drive purchase alcoholic beverages, etc. Depends on the place and the constitution. However all them still have natural rights.

Natural rights can be suspended on extreme situation of - usually when breaking the law, but they require a certain amount of directives and qualifications, and the person needs to be informed of the situation and has the right to defend itself from such actions (through the courts excerzising their defense). You can't just take someone's liberty or property from the get go, the person must be informed so he or she can defend itself and take proper legal action. For example, Habeas Corpus is a legal recourse to protect yourself from such actions.

An embryo in a test tube does not have rights, because it is undeveloped, but implanted embryo is the recipient of the same natural rights as you and me because it is developing into a full human being, and jurisprudence of most nations regonizes as such. I gave you a few examples before, which I will develop further below to respond to your next quotation.



International covenant on civil and political rights (united nations) - Part III, Article 6.

5. Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women.

International law, and the law of most countries where capital punishment is legal, it is forbidden to execute a woman while pregnant. Not that the issue arises often (if at all in history), but the legal principle is that a pregnant woman is carrying two lives, not just one, and you can't legally end the second life. Most nations have similar laws in their civil codes, such as the U.S.

18 US Code 3596,
(b) Pregnant Woman.— A sentence of death shall not be carried out upon a woman while she is pregnant.

Most laws ascribe to the principle that the fetus enjoys the right to life, and were crafted within that parameter. If the fetus does not enjoy such right, there is no need to be concerned with its safety, and penalties for injury or death would not apply. However, the law of most countries also recognizes that death in utero can be akin to murder or providing liability for injuries.

In the case of Mone vs Greyhound, the court recognised the unwrongfull death of an unborn child as a "person" - by consideration that a viable fetus is defined as such - under a wrongful death status, and overruled a previous case (Leccese v. McDonough). A similar ruling occurs in Commonwealth vs Cas, where a fetus was considered a person in the case of vehicular accident.

The legal predisposition of such rulings is that a viable fetus is by definition a person worthy of life, and compensation is akin to the same of a regular person, based on the idea that the viable fetus is developing into a regular human being, and his life can't be taken away, or in such cases, treated as the death of any other human being. Fetal rights are thus contingent on the idea that a viable fetus will eventually be born into a full human , and by extension are legally protected from injury or attack, and punishment for such actions is taken as if it was the same for any other person.

The contigency of birth extends these rights to property: a fetus can legally inherit if he is conceived or born after its predecessor or bequeaters death, assuming the fetus is viable and will eventually be born. But the law treats the fetus as if having been alive at the time of conception.

For example, we find this conditions within state law in the U.S.
Louisiana Civil Code, Art. 940. Same; unborn child
An unborn child conceived at the death of the decedent and thereafter born alive shall be considered to exist at the death of the decedent.

Although a minor point, the terminology refers to the fetus as "unborn child", which in jurisprudence is of significance. However the key is that most laws and rulings treat fetuses as prospective children and humans. The ruling of Christian vs Carter establishes that a will created before the conception of the child is invalid, because it goes against the interests of the progenitor, while providing the status of "living" to the fetus.

Now the law varies from country to country, but the legal principle of most nations is and has always been that a child in the utero is defined as the legal claimant for any sort of property owned by a pre-deceased father. There are legal void as in every legal system, but the law does work on the principle that the fetus is by all means a human being worthy of protection and entitled to certain rights.



I didn't say Roe v Wade mentions the rights of the fetus. I said it did not deny them. Roe v Wade is framed in a manner which is about the government's oversight over private medical procedure, and its protection under the constitution, but it does not express the idea that the fetus is not alive.
Legally speaking, in some countries, a child can sue for a tort claim against its own mother for prenatal injuries.

The supreme court reversed the previous ruling, and ruled in favour of the baker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission
In a 7–2 decision, the Court ruled on narrow grounds that the Commission did not employ religious neutrality, violating Masterpiece owner Jack Phillips's rights to free exercise, and reversed the Commission's decision.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
About the baker--he makes wedding cakes and sells them to the public. He wouldn't be allowed to single out a couple based on race or ethnicity, and tell them he refused to do business with "their kind", because his religion forbade interracial marriage, for example.

So, why was he allowed to single customers out based on sexual orientation? Would he disallow a brilliant surgeon to operate on him and save his life, simply because he'd found out the man was gay?

The couple targeted him though, from what I understand. And, wasn't it the inscription on the cake that he refused to go along with, rather than the cake itself? They could have had another baker write the "Adam and Steve" inscription, and bought the cake without requiring the baker who made the cake to write it himself.
 
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