Abortion - Your Opinion

Your Take?


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waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, you have no understanding--none-- of the dilemmas facing a pregnant girl or woman bearing a fetus she doesn't want. Abortion is something serious, as are many medical procedures. But not because you mistakenly try to define it as murder.

No intelligent thoughtful person wants to "joke and laugh" about abortion.

If the fetus isn't alive, then abortion isn't murder, and its just a simple medical procedure that removes a tiny and unnecessary part of the woman's body - and we can joke and laugh about it all we want because its not something serious.

So which is it?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, you're simply digging your chauvinist hole wider and deeper.

Now you refuse to accord pregnant women sufficient intelligence to make up their own minds about their bodies. To you, pregnant women are simply brainless dupes of social fads.

The process of having and raising babies is big business, Dirius; not abortion.

Yes I probably wouldn't have the life I do now, I would have another type of life. That doesn't mean it is correct or justifies such an action.



Hard to say - because when I was college aged I wasn't opposed to abortion, and the me in the present can only see things in retrospect and with a biased view. I would love to stand here all high and mighty and tell you that I would have done everything correctly, but the truth is I don't know. But that doesn't mean my actions would have been correct or justified.

As I mentioned though, I don't hold anything against women who have gotten abortions, in fact I understand them, because society as a whole pushes and manipulates women into aborting fetuses rather than keeping them. However, there is a large section of the population which promotes and supports abortion, even though they would personally never get it. There is another section of the population which profits over it -> which reveals the true nature of why so many politicians, businessmen, celebrities, etc. actually make the push for abortion.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Dirius, the bottom line problem with your arguments is that they come from a place of male chauvinism, not one of seeing women as fully-fledged human beings and equals. You see women as dupes of "society"-- that presumably includes a lot of guys like yourself.

Does it occur to you that it takes two to make a baby? Why aren't you up in arms about men's needs for more abstinence, better male birth control, and child support?

Have you heard of men doing "stealth" condom removal during sex? The woman agrees to sex if the man wears a condom, but he removes it prior to ejaculation without telling her.

In Sweden stealth condom removal immediately classifies the man's sexual activity as non-consensual. California may pass a similar law.

Why aren't you on the horn about sexually irresponsible men? Never mind the man as a 1950s-style Big Daddy "provider."

But if he is your ideal male persona, why don't you exemplify it yourself?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Abortion is legal in a lot of the west, my country included.

Exactly, and it is illegal and restricted in most of the third world - which means a conversation on those areas is kind of irrelevant. If you wish to go to Africa and campaign for "women's rights", thats fine with me. Good luck!
 

david starling

Well-known member
Exactly, and it is illegal and restricted in most of the third world - which means a conversation on those areas is kind of irrelevant. If you wish to go to Africa and campaign for "women's rights", thats fine with me. Good luck!

The third world State of Texas is attempting to make it illegal.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, please take your head out of the sand. Maybe you've just explained why you are not a husband and father yourself. You're not actually the expert on marriage here.

You mistake "sensitive" for "weak." Is this a frequent problem for you?

Nobody-- male or female-- wants a weak, needy spouse or partner who is constantly complaining. But many women have no interest in an autocratic, patriarchal ice-man sort of male. We saw that with our own fathers, thank you very much, and have no wish to repeat it in our own marriages.

Quite the contrary. This is exactly what women these days are looking for. Your generation rebelled against such structure. The current generation didn't have it, and are drawn to it. And its much more rare than in your day.

You are old, and I mean no offense with this, but you have no idea how the current dating scene works. There is a generational divide between us, and I presume you have little experience with dating apps, current hook-up culture and other challenges my generation (and those who are younger) face on a daily basis. Women these days have higher expectations towards men than they did in your day, while ironically, men have less to offer.

If feminists are "ruining men," such men deserve what they get. As the old feminist saying goes, "A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality." What you're saying is that men were never all that strong to begin with.

Your Darwinian view of sensitive men vs. "providers" is 1950s rubbish. When were you ever a "provider"?

My husband of 25 years is a "sensitive guy" with a good income prior to his retirement-- now he has a good pension. Most women today with heads on their shoulders know they need to have their own incomes.

Why? Because at some point she's likely to need it.

My generation is less likely to get married, given most people my age grew up with divorced parents. The attitude of younger generations towards marriage is quite negative, particularly for men, whom are more concerned with living a simple life free of problems. And the current hook-up culture makes this much easier, given you can interact with multiple women, and be care-free.

The older women get, they have to lower their standards, and most end up being desperate for a relationship. If you go into Tinder, or some other app, you'll find an endless amount of women in their late 30's looking for a partner, which they will most likely never find. You can thank the "feminist revolution" for that.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Since the Middle Ages?

Oh, great, Dirius. Your naivete is so charming.

Tell us about the realities behind David Copperfield, Oliver Twist, the Baker Street Irregulars. Study the Irish Magdalene laundries' forced labor of ostensibly "fallen women." for an alternative take on humane treatment of pregnant girls..

Speaking of the Middle Ages, take a look at Pieter Bruegel's painting of the beggars. https://arthistoryland.com/pieter-bruegel-the-elder-the-beggars/

You seem utterly unaware of the practices of infanticide.

You live in a dream world, Dirius.

Yes and you are comparing this with what? the rest of the world? Lets go into the other nations of the world, in the same centuries, and see their attitude towards children.

Sure, the system isn't perfect and there is a lot of work to be done. But the system exists. And I also don't see the killing of the child before its born as a viable alternative.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
So what are you saying, Dirius? That because you willfully ignore facts about pregnancy complications, you can safely assume they're irrelevant to an abortion debate?

By turning a blind eye to them, you align with "morons" [sic] who would admit no legal grounds for abortion. That's a big problem with your argument.

Ectopic pregnancy is not all that rare (1 in 50,) and it is a condition that endangers the life of the mother, with no chance of the fetus surviving.

A pregnant 13-year old incest victim seeking abortion is not doing so out of "convenience." Surely you can understand that.

Surely you can understand that a woman might have a viable fetus yet be in a situation where abortion seems like the best of some very troubling options. Take the example of a poor wife and mother who cannot manage or afford baby #7. You're not going to look after it.

You've amply demonstrated by now that you must give up any pretense that you actually care about human rights.

Again, these are all examples of unviable pregnancies in which saving the mother's life will result in the fetus being killed. But this isn't the case for healthy and viable pregnancies.

You are trying to build a strawman argument based on fetuses who will invevitably die, regardless of what action is taken.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, you have no understanding--none-- of the dilemmas facing a pregnant girl or woman bearing a fetus she doesn't want. Abortion is something serious, as are many medical procedures. But not because you mistakenly try to define it as murder.

No intelligent thoughtful person wants to "joke and laugh" about abortion.

Again - if you don't think abortion is murder, then there is no reason why we can't laugh about it.
 

passiflora

Well-known member
I wouldn't say men need to be emotional. There is nothing wrong with caring, and most men do feel emotions quite a lot (depression is common for us) and can be understanding of how a woman feels. But a lot of men happen to be overtly sensitive, and been brought in a way in which they are encouraged to feel and express in such a manner, and complain when things don't go their way, rather than being taught to suck it up and man up. Its the sheltered and feminist lifestyle of the west which is ruining men.

You are not going to get a super sensitive and caring man that is also a good provider. Its just very rare. Being succesful implies that you need to be competitive, which is not a matching quality.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, women don't want a naturally "sensitive" or "caring" guy. What women want (again my opinion) is a man that just behaves that particular way with them, even if he is an a-hole to the rest of the world. Because this is how a woman feels "special", by having someone act against his nature with them only.

I object to you complaining women have low standards then trying to tell them their higher standards are impossible fantasies. Men like this absolutely exist, I am married to one and if you don’t believe they exist you won’t be able to find them.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I object to you complaining women have low standards then trying to tell them their higher standards are impossible fantasies. Men like this absolutely exist, I am married to one and if you don’t believe they exist you won’t be able to find them.

I'm talking from a statistical perspective.

Women end up having lower standards, as a result of the current dating scene. Most men today are unnappealing for a long-term relationship. Sure you can find "good" men, usually in your youth, and usually someone who falls for you. But from a societal perspective, less and less men are interested in a traditional relationship which leads to marriage, and at most choose long partnerships.
 
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Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
I object to you complaining women have low standards then trying to tell them their higher standards are impossible fantasies. Men like this absolutely exist, I am married to one and if you don’t believe they exist you won’t be able to find them.

How did you meet your man Passi? If you don’t mind me asking.

I remember Katydid shared her story of being a care-free non-commital hippy type, to finding a man that inspired her to respect herself more and thus becoming more wife material for him, and she caught a catch.
 

passiflora

Well-known member
Statistically you also can’t pull yourself up by the bootstraps but there you believe in trying anyway, correct?
 

passiflora

Well-known member
Ukpoohbear, it’s kind of off topic for the thread, but we met when I had no interest in dating, as I don’t believe in workplace romance, so it gave us time to get to know each other properly.

Having young children is stressful. I wouldn’t choose to do it with a someone unable to labor emotionally or professionally. Children need a village worth of parental quality protection for years, if it ever ends. I don’t believe any society that doesn’t fundamentally organize itself around supporting child life of all kinds has any right to say whether a woman may abort or not.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Statistically you also can’t pull yourself up by the bootstraps but there you believe in trying anyway, correct?

You can't these days because government acts as an obstacle every step of the way. If you belong to a low income bracket, about 20% or more of what you earn is taken away from you, to pay for a useless bureaucracy, that doesn't do much. Good luck saving up and investing when most of your extra money goes to finance your senator's $300.000 year salary.

But keep on believing socialism will save you.
 

passiflora

Well-known member
It’s not a tin can Dirius, with red and blue pills. Power works that way, whole societies organized against the concept of mobility. Loosen up. I’m not a socialist, btw.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
It’s not a tin can Dirius, with red and blue pills. Power works that way, whole societies organized against the concept of mobility. Loosen up. I’m not a socialist, btw.

So you agree the reason people can't pull themselves up, is because someone at the top is preventing them from doing so.

Keep voting for socialism, I'm sure you'll be fine in the long run.
 

passiflora

Well-known member
So you agree the reason people can't pull themselves up, is because someone at the top is preventing them from doing so.

Keep voting for socialism, I'm sure you'll be fine in the long run.

This argument style of yours is very NOT emotionally laborious. Why do you guys teach each other these **** methods of rigidity online anyway?!
 
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