A new twist on Modern Psychological Astrology

[waybread]

"My Insurance Doesn't Cover Therapy so I'm Talking to an Astrologer Instead," by Maria Del Russo.

https://www.thelily.com/my-insurance-doesnt-cover-therapy-so-im-talking-to-an-astrologer-instead/

I caught this article in the Washington Post this morning. I sometimes feel that those of us who read charts for people are being asked to substitute for licensed therapists, which is probably not a good thing. I describe what I do as dispensing kitchen-table advice, the way I would do if a friend dropped by and asked for advice about a problem s/he was facing. I sometimes recommend that people ask their MD for a referral to a licensed therapist, such as a clinical psychologist.

Of course, the author's insurance wouldn't cover sessions with an astrologer, either; but probably he's a lot cheaper.

What is your reaction to this article?

 

[AppLeo]

Well clearly replacing a therapist with an astrologer is a bad thing. If you are suffering from a mental health issue, an astrologer isn't going to be able to fix it. Depression, Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia and anything else along those lines aren't something you can fix by looking at where Saturn is in your chart. Even if someone had a loaded 6th house with malefics and an astrologer was able to clarify that you had a mental illness because of this, it still wouldn't help that much.

It really bothers me when people consult astrologers as if they're miracle workers. But I guess astrologers are expected to be miracle workers because they are the person's last hope, last shot at getting over the problems in their life.

This woman for this particular article though isn't really a great example. She seems dumb if you ask me.

"The truth is, if the folks running our government actually cared about mental health, and made it more accessible to people like me who struggle to pay their rent every month, I’d been seeing a shrink with regularity."

I don't think this woman actually needs a therapist. I think she's just being weak. And the reason why I say this is because she wants the government to pay for her problems. And I know Waybread and other socialists may disagree with me, but I can garantee, if you want the government to pay for your nonsense, then you're just being selfish and hopelessly entitled and lazy.

The folks in the government aren't responsible for paying every single thing under the sun. The government is supposed to protect your rights. Therapy isn't a right. Neither is housing.

That's your job. If you want something, try making a product that people will pay you for, instead of pursuing some lousy writing career that's clearly failing and using the money that people have actually earned by selling a product that's useful to society.

Also, I think mental illnesses are almost a pseudoscience. Like yes they are real, but people are totally over-exaggerating, self-diagnosing, playing the victim... It's no wonder an astrologer is able to replace her therapist because she doesn't actually have real problems.

A lot of the problems that people have can be solved on their own. So I mean, it's not even replacing an astrologer with a therapist that's the problem. It's people who replace themselves with a therapist that's the problem!

And like what the astrologer said, she's just going through a hard time right now because of Saturn Return. No mental illness, no actual problems, so definitely no government money required.

It sounds like she just needs someone to talk to, and in that case, don't pay (use expect someone else to pay) someone to listen to your problems. Grab a friend instead for support. Or just tough it out because it's your Saturn Return.

So, we need psychologists, but only when we actually have mental problems. Astrologers cannot replace psychologists, or else we're in trouble. But if you don't actually have a problem and you want to replace the unnecessary therapist with an astrologer, then I don't care or see a problem. It's probably better actually because it's cheaper. It's your money and your life. In this lady's case, it was actually better she went to an astrologer because he was able to tell her it was Saturn Return. While a therapist would have no clue why her life is having issues.

 

[waybread]

I am not a socialist.

Plus, as the author noted, it was her former employer who paid for therapy as part of her package of health benefits. She didn't say she worked for the government: you made up this assumption.

 

[AppLeo]

I am not a socialist.

Plus, as the author noted, it was her former employer who paid for therapy as part of her package of health benefits. She didn't say she worked for the government: you made up this assumption.

I didn’t say she worked for the government either. I’m saying she wants government to pay for her therapy. Which is socialist.

And you’re a socialist if you think government should pay for therapy.

 

[Frisiangal]

Well clearly replacing a therapist with an astrologer is a bad thing. If you are suffering from a mental health issue, an astrologer isn't going to be able to fix it. Depression, Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia and anything else along those lines aren't something you can fix by looking at where Saturn is in your chart. Even if someone had a loaded 6th house with malefics and an astrologer was able to clarify that you had a mental illness because of this, it still wouldn't help that much.

It really bothers me when people consult astrologers as if they're miracle workers

Is a psychologist/psychiatrist considered to be 'a therapist' that can do so? What do they do that an astrologer doesn't?
Are they the miracle workers that astrologers aren't?

My view on reading the article was that the person in question is/was 'mentally/emotionally needy' for someone else to solve the issues she faces and/or cannot/will not solve for herself. She happened to come into contact with an astrologer who uses solar system symbolism to tell her about herself, rather than one who lets her work out for herself why the issues in her life are as they are.....as does a professional in the socially recognised psych.... fields.
Had her contact been with any other kind of alternative discipline that provided a service not covered by health insurance, her article would have been about that. Imho, the gist of it is a dig at the health service for which she used astrology as the weapon.

 

[AppLeo]

Is a psychologist/psychiatrist considered to be 'a therapist' that can do so? What do they do that an astrologer doesn't?
Are they the miracle workers that astrologers aren't?

Yes, they are trained in diagnosing and treating mental illnesses. Astrologers are not. And many astrologers are not even certified; all psychologists are.

My view on reading the article was that the person in question is/was 'mentally/emotionally needy' for someone else to solve the issues she faces and/or cannot/will not solve for herself. She happened to come into contact with an astrologer who uses solar system symbolism to tell her about herself, rather than one who lets her work out for herself why the issues in her life are as they are.....as does a professional in the socially recognised psych.... fields.
Had her contact been with any other kind of alternative discipline that provided a service not covered by health insurance, her article would have been about that. Imho, the gist of it is a dig at the health service for which she used astrology as the weapon.

I agree with that completely.

 

[waybread]

AppLeo, I am sooo.... done with "debating" your reactionary political views. It's not possible to have a rational discussion with you about your extremist beliefs.

 

[AppLeo]

AppLeo, I am sooo.... done with "debating" your reactionary political views. It's not possible to have a rational discussion with you about your extremist beliefs.

Dude, you don't have to debate with me. You just said to post your reaction. That was my reaction.

You didn't post your reaction to the article yet, so what's yours? Well it was a short reaction, imo.

 

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by Frisiangal
Is a psychologist/psychiatrist considered to be 'a therapist' that can do so? What do they do that an astrologer doesn't?
Are they the miracle workers that astrologers aren't?

Yes, they are trained in diagnosing and treating mental illnesses. Astrologers are not. And many astrologers are not even certified; all psychologists are.

How do they do that? From intuition through what they have learnt in reading the signs that denote 'a disorder'? Only the symbolism used is different.
Imho that doesn't make a person using astro. symbolism any less efficient, providing the training has been done. Joe Bloggs from an astro. internet site may not be in the same class as a 'published astrologer' who is automatically credited with talent. Yet he may well be able to read the signs that leads to an accurate interpretation of where mental/emotional issues can be found. As with the psychologist/psychiatrist, he can't cure the client. Only the client can do that him/herself.
A major difference is that the psych.... can prescribe medication to ease the client's affliction, whilst an astrologer can only do it through the quality within words that encourage self reflection. .

I am NOT implying that an astrologer should be allowed to prescribe any kind of physical medication that induces and/or eases other realms of consciousness. There are other means.

Opinions regarding mental/emotional health (care) are becoming a major part of today's world. As with views regarding most situations, they will differ in how it should be treated/handled.

 

[AppLeo]

How do they do that?

I don't know; ask a psychologist. A regular person like me doesn't know how a psychologist diagnoses depression, for example.

From intuition through what they have learnt in reading the signs that denote 'a disorder'? Only the symbolism used is different.

It may have different ways of coming to the same conclusion, but a psychologist is certified and trained in dealing with mental illnesses. Astrologers are not, therefore, it's not a good idea to replace psychologists with astrologers.

But as I've stated before, I don't care if you want to replace a psychologist with an astrologer.

I wouldn't care if you paid some random guy on the street to perform an illegal surgery because he isn't a certified medical doctor. The guy on the street may be cheaper and may be able to perform the surgery perfectly well, but he isn't trained properly so I wouldn't recommend it.

Imho that doesn't make a person using astro. symbolism any less efficient, providing the training has been done.

Well if the astrologer has also been trained and certified in psychology then I don't how that would be less efficient either.

Joe Bloggs from an astro. internet site may not be in the same class as a 'published astrologer' who is automatically credited with talent. Yet he may well be able to read the signs that leads to an accurate interpretation of where mental/emotional issues can be found.

Yes, but what's important is that the person is receiving treatment for their mental illness. An astrologer cannot provide that treatment, therefore a psychologist/psychiatrist is required.

As with the psychologist/psychiatrist, he can't cure the client. Only the client can do that him/herself.

Well if the psychologist can't, then the astrologer sure as hell can't.

A major difference is that the psych.... can prescribe medication to ease the client's affliction, whilst an astrologer can only do it through the quality within words that encourage self reflection. .

Psychologists encourage self-reflection as well.

I am NOT implying that an astrologer should be allowed to prescribe any kind of physical medication that induces and/or eases other realms of consciousness. There are other means.

Lol

Opinions regarding mental/emotional health (care) are becoming a major part of today's world. As with views regarding most situations, they will differ in how it should be treated/handled.

Then I guess it really doesn't matter if a psychologist, astrologer, or some random hobo on the street helps with mental illnesses, since these views are becoming more subjective.

 

[ardentika]

AppLeo you are kinda contradicting your own self. First it sounds like you don't support the idea of government helping with mental issues then you don't approve the help of astrology either...
Obviously there is a mass problem with mental health issues, may it be due to the Scorpio Pluto generation, or whatever else, it is a problem. And when there is a problem there must be a solution.
Many certified psychologists are complete sh*t. Since psychology became mainstream 20y ago it's full of them.

Astrology is etirely based on our psyche. Whatever we observe becomes reality. As much as there is fate, there is free will. If you go back to begining of astrology you can't say who delivered the knowledge of what palnets represent or what's their energy. It was still assigned BY humans.
So again its us experiencing ourselves, finding ways outside to look deep within.
Now, imagine how far we have gone (Pluto, Uranus, Neptune) to look deeper within ourselves. We are still influenced by energies out of our control, since after all we are students, but we can chose how to work with them and transform them. And here is where astrology comes in handy with mental issues. Each mental issue is a result from past life karma. Sometimes the clearance or karma is so intense on a soul level, the conscious human mind cannot take it and locks it down in the subconscious plane. And that's when things go wrong in the 3d. And here I'm talking about severe issues.
However there are mild ones that often times get blown out of proportion. Example, bipolar 3 is cosidered by many psychologists "spoiled kid sydrome" . So there you have it.

Many visit psychologists cos they are mainstream and "certified" and that immediately "promises" success in the mind of those who visit them. Because those people are usually so desperate to cure themselves and have a normal life that they hope for a miracle and are ready to pay the necessary price. However, they go for all the wrong methods. Pills can't cure your soul or your psyche. Period.
Theycan promise you a lifetime of misery and no true happiness since they supress the real problem.

Astrology here can point out the REAL problem quite fast. But just as any therapist says they cannot work for their clients or do the work for them. The patient must be willing to work on themselves, cooperate and follow guidence.
Same with astrology. That's why most modern astrologers are good psychologists. Because one goes with the other. You won't see a traditional astrologer that will offer such help because they focus on predictions and fatedness. "It is what it is, deal with it" which is bullshitz.
Perhaps thats where mass depression kicked in, because as our consciousness expands people feel trapped and victimized by higher power they don't understand. I don't ever even open the Traditional Astrology forum. Tried t a few times, depely regret it.

 

[petosiris]

Many visit psychologists cos they are mainstream and "certified" and that immediately "promises" success in the mind of those who visit them. Because those people are usually so desperate to cure themselves and have a normal life that they hope for a miracle and are ready to pay the necessary price. However, they go for all the wrong methods. Pills can't cure your soul or your psyche

Have you ever been to a psychologist? As far as I am aware in most countries only psychiatrists and doctors prescribe pills, psychologists and therapists do not.

 

[petosiris]

What is your reaction to this article?

If the astrologer has degree or background in psychology, he could be doing ''psychological'' astrology, otherwise what is he doing? Now there is a number of actual transpersonal and Jungian psychologists dabbling in modern astrology.

I personally find ancient psychology more coherent. As long as people understand that neither in no way comprises the entire scientific field of psychology, which is not monolithic in any case, there should be no problem.

 

[david starling]

If the astrologer has degree or background in psychology, he could be doing ''psychological'' astrology, otherwise what is he doing? Now there is a number of actual transpersonal and Jungian psychologists dabbling in modern astrology.

I personally find ancient psychology more coherent. As long as people understand that neither in no way comprises the entire scientific field of psychology, which is not monolithic in any case, there should be no problem.

Petosirus, your theory on the ability to perceive Astrological correlations as a means to enter an altered state, where actual prophetic ability becomes possible, is brilliant [IMO].
Have I interpreted it correctly? Also, would that apply to perception of psychological correlations as well?

 

[petosiris]

Petosirus, your theory on the ability to perceive Astrological correlations as a means to enter an altered state, where actual prophetic ability becomes possible, is brilliant [IMO].
Have I interpreted it correctly? Also, would that apply to perception of psychological correlations as well?

Yes, you have. I actually think religious prophecy and divination are closely related, and were back in Babylonia. This environment also influenced modern astronomy, science and philosophy.

I am pretty sure that the current knowledge in cognitive sciences about such processes is far from explaining the mechanism behind religious and mystical experiences, (a century ago people were assigning epilepsy left and right to religious leaders). That is I do not personally think that all there is to astrology is suggestion and bias. I think there is an important element of interconnection of something like archetypes and memories to create a coherent story, that would be impossible without a similar divination tool. I also think that the latter neglected part is where its utility lies.

This field is often abused by charlatans and overeager individuals or too neglected by the opposite disappointed skeptical community.

 

[david starling]

I think too much is made of a distinction between personality description based on Astrology and/or Psychology, and "prediction" per se. Predicting personality traits and likely behavioral patterns using Astrological or Psychological theory can be uncannily right, or obviously wrong.

 

[petosiris]

I think too much is made of a distinction between personality description based on Astrology and or Psychology, and "prediction" per se. Predicting personality traits and likely behavioral patterns using Astrological or Psychological theory can be uncannily right, or obviously wrong.

I made this argument in another thread where I said that modern astrologers are doing predictions on personality and that there is little difference between the modern and traditional in that respect, but I got criticism from other astrologers.

Predicting personality traits is part of traditional astrology as well. - Theatrical, cheerful, ambitious, public, courageous, loving, peaceful, lavish, sluggish, four temperaments and so on.

Because personality is something to a considerable degree subjective and different people have different interpretation of it, psychological personality tests are not considered the brightest achievement of the field and they encounter a lot of criticism in the scientific community.

 

[ardentika]

Have you ever been to a psychologist? As far as I am aware in most countries only psychiatrists and doctors prescribe pills, psychologists and therapists do not.

Yep, I have. And they can suggest a psychiatrist who can prescribe pills if they think the case is too difficult. Also in my group there were a few young women on anti depressants. Beats me how they got them.

 

[david starling]

Yes, you have. I actually think religious prophecy and divination are closely related, and were back in Babylonia. This environment also influenced modern astronomy, science and philosophy.

I am pretty sure that the current knowledge in cognitive sciences about such processes is far from explaining the mechanism behind religious and mystical experiences, (a century ago people were assigning epilepsy left and right to religious leaders). That is I do not personally think that all there is to astrology is suggestion and bias. I think there is an important element of interconnection of something like archetypes and memories to create a coherent story, that would be impossible without a similar divination tool. I also think that the latter neglected part is where its utility lies.

This field is often abused by charlatans and overeager individuals or too neglected by the opposite disappointed skeptical community.

There's an interesting theory that altered states using chemical substances were the means by which ancient civilizations developed their visionary religions and all that came with them, including Astrology. Rye ergot, of course, is well known regarding the Elusian Mysteries, but the mushroom theory also has some good support, especially in the rites of Dionysus. Sacred places could be locations where the Earth's magnetic field does something to brain chemistry along those lines.

 

[waybread]

If the astrologer has degree or background in psychology, he could be doing ''psychological'' astrology, otherwise what is he doing? Now there is a number of actual transpersonal and Jungian psychologists dabbling in modern astrology.

I personally find ancient psychology more coherent. As long as people understand that neither in no way comprises the entire scientific field of psychology, which is not monolithic in any case, there should be no problem.

Insofar as I understand the term "modern psychological astrology," it was a school of thought spearheaded by Liz Greene in the 1970s, although with roots in the earlier theosophical movement. Howard Sasportas, Stephen Arroyo, Alice Howells, and Richard Idemon would be other examples. Karen Hamaker-Zondag authored a book titled Psychological Astrology in Dutch in 1978, translated into English in 1980. However, I think of her today as being much more pragmatic.

The further back in time we go, the more psychology seems to be conflated with early American psychology as a kind of branch of philosophy. (See, for example, the books by Dane Rudhyar.)

Psychological astrology went on to become heavily invested in Carl Jung's thought.

The main problem I have with this is that today in North America, Jung is pretty much taught only in specialized institutes, not in comprehensive college and university psychology departments; except in historical perspective. Jung and Freud were not scientific in the sense of basing their claims on controlled clinical trials. They were far more impressionistic, introspective, and anecdotal. There is no clinical evidence for Jung's collective unconscious or synchronicity, for example, so far as I know.

Academic psychology today is increasingly based on neuroscience. And they're the ones turning out most of the psychology grads who go into a clinical or counseling practice.

In Canadian provinces and US states, practicing psychologists have to have at least a Master's degree in psychology or an allied field like social work. They need so many clinical hours, where they work with clients under the direction of a supervisor. They have to pass a provincial/state licensing exam.

If an astrologer does this, then yes-- s/he would be a qualified psychologist. What it takes to become a qualified astrologer is still up for debate and totally unregulated, beyond the occasional fraud who gets arrested for bilking clients out of large sums of money.