A few questions on debility cancellation.

[Element]

So, I was looking at my SR chart for this year and SR Mars is in Libra and SR Jupiter is in Gemini. They are both debilitated.

However, I had read that if the debilitated planet is in aspect to the sign ruler then the debility will be removed. As it happens, I have Mars trine Venus and jupiter sextile mercury in my natal chart. Do these natal placements provide cancellation for Mars and Jupiter debilities in the SR chart?

Also, in the sticky thread someone stated that the debility is removed if the debilitated planet is in the same sign/house as the sign ruler. Does this mean that the debility is removed if the debilitated planet occupies the same sign AND house or the same sign OR house?

Here is my SR chart for the year.

 

[Anachiel]

Can you repost the chart? It appears to be...gone.

 

[Element]

Can you repost the chart? It appears to be...gone.

Re-posted the chart. Hopefully it decides to stay this time.

 

[may28gemini]

where did you read that? from what i understand, debilitated is debilitated and exalted is exalted and the degrees of such is either enhanced or lessen by the aspects they make to other planets.

 

[Element]

where did you read that? from what i understand, debilitated is debilitated and exalted is exalted and the degrees of such is either enhanced or lessen by the aspects they make to other planets.

If you look at the top of this sub forum there are two stickys. Click on the last page of the first one titled An Introduction to Dignities and Debilities. The entire page talks about it.

 

[Anachiel]

It's a Vedic technique. The things is, the Vedic astrologers use a sidereal zodiac, rather than tropical zodiac. Tropical zodiac is what we use in the West and, it has it own rules and proceedures like the Vedic who has thei,r own rules and proceedures for working with a sidreal zodiac. The rules and proceedures are not neccessarily interchangeable though. However, there are counterparts to each for each zodiac.

What you are talking about (or read), the cancellation of debility, would have a Western counter part known as mutual reception, or possibly, a 'bad' planet ruling a good house, aspected by benefics and well placed, etc.

Basically, the whole point of neecha bhanga is like the old Chinese teaching-story that I will simply paraphrase by describing a farmer who breaks his leg and cannot farm yet, when the Emperor's military comes to town, the farmer avoids the draft (and subsequent likely death in war) because he is not fit to fight. In essence, what seemed bad protected or turned out to to be good yet, keep in mind the farmer still could not farm but he was alive. Had he have been in good health, he would still not have been able to farm but, also would be fighting in war and likely killed.

So, the lines of 'good' and 'bad' blur both in Western and Vedic astrology.

 

[may28gemini]

i'm not interested in vedic astrology. to me, when someone has a debility it stays just as they have an exaltation it stays- how bad or good it gets depends on its aspects to other planets.

i find it irksome when people try to manipulate and seek out find to pad their astrological flaws, "oh my debility isn't so bad." well, that's like someone who's overweight saying, "i don't need to lose weight." there's always free will, you can decide what to do with what you have. just face facts. we're all born with good and bad, some born with more than others but so what?

 

[Element]

It's a Vedic technique. The things is, the Vedic astrologers use a sidereal zodiac, rather than tropical zodiac. Tropical zodiac is what we use in the West and, it has it own rules and proceedures like the Vedic who has thei,r own rules and proceedures for working with a sidreal zodiac. The rules and proceedures are not neccessarily interchangeable though. However, there are counterparts to each for each zodiac.

What you are talking about (or read), the cancellation of debility, would have a Western counter part known as mutual reception, or possibly, a 'bad' planet ruling a good house, aspected by benefics and well placed, etc.

Basically, the whole point of neecha bhanga is like the old Chinese teaching-story that I will simply paraphrase by describing a farmer who breaks his leg and cannot farm yet, when the Emperor's military comes to town, the farmer avoids the draft (and subsequent likely death in war) because he is not fit to fight. In essence, what seemed bad protected or turned out to to be good yet, keep in mind the farmer still could not farm but he was alive. Had he have been in good health, he would still not have been able to farm but, also would be fighting in war and likely killed.

So, the lines of 'good' and 'bad' blur both in Western and Vedic astrology.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I didn't realize this was a vedic technique.

 

[tsmall]

Yes, there can be...not cancellation, exactly, in natal charts, but more like aide, or help. In a natal chart, if a planet in some form of debility is in a sign with the exaltation ruler, or the domicile ruler, then that planet does have resources, or help, which can overcome the implications of being debilitated. It's like, I can't do math, but I have a friend who can, and he helps me pass my test. Or, like I can't run my own house, but I have a patron who helps me keep the bills paid and the lights on. Possibly...SSI and wellfare checks?

The difference though is that here you are talking about SR charts. When looking at the SR chart, you want to know what the ASC ruler is doing...and how it sits in the radical (natal) chart, but mostly...yeah, what it's doing and how it is afflicted or dignified in the SR chart. So, while we want to compare the two, we can't cancel out the condition of a planet in the SR chart based on it's condition in the natal. However, we can look at the aspects it makes to the natal planets. The overall condition of a planet for the year won't change, but how we read the aspects to the natal will.

 

[dr. farr]

When a planet is in its detriment by sign, this detriment can be modified by house placement (eg, angular placement), and can also be modified by face and by triplicity, and further modified by any close conjunctions it might have with a fixed star, and can also be further modified by being in a pitted or elevated degree, and further modified by being in a dark of bright degree-now this is a mixture of essential and accidental dignity modifiers, nonetheless they are modifiers, and this is from Hellenist and Traditionalist Western doctrine, not Vedic; can these modifiers over-ride the basic (essential) debility? You bet they can-and the reverse is also true: a planet in essential dignity can be over-ridden by detriments: yes-cancellation is a (translated) Vedic astrology term, however what amounts to a cancellation via being over-riden by dignities (or detriments) obtains in our Western astrological tradition, going back to its Hellenist origins and was only dropped by Modernist astrological doctrines over the past 120 (or so) years...

 

[Element]

When a planet is in its detriment by sign, this detriment can be modified by house placement (eg, angular placement), and can also be modified by face and by triplicity, and further modified by any close conjunctions it might have with a fixed star, and can also be further modified by being in a pitted or elevated degree, and further modified by being in a dark of bright degree-now this is a mixture of essential and accidental dignity modifiers, nonetheless they are modifiers, and this is from Hellenist and Traditionalist Western doctrine, not Vedic; can these modifiers over-ride the basic (essential) debility? You bet they can-and the reverse is also true: a planet in essential dignity can be over-ridden by detriments: yes-cancellation is a (translated) Vedic astrology term, however what amounts to a cancellation via being over-riden by dignities (or detriments) obtains in our Western astrological tradition, going back to its Hellenist origins and was only dropped by Modernist astrological doctrines over the past 120 (or so) years...

Thank you Dr. Farr. So I was not wrong to apply those principles then. This is very good to know. Depending on the planets and aspects involved this concept of cancellation can really change the way a chart would be interpreted.

 

[dr. farr]

Although I follow many of the concepts and interpretations of Modernist astrology (which discounts much of what I have posted above) as an eclectic I also use concepts and methods from Traditionalist and Hellenist traditions as well, and I do consider what I have posted above, to be valid: however "cancellation" is perhaps a "charged" term (because of its connection with Vedic astrology), so lets use "modification" (the concept of modification, or modulation) instead...

 

[wilsontc]

addition, to dr. farr

dr. farr

You said:

I do consider what I have posted above, to be valid: however "cancellation" is perhaps a "charged" term (because of its connection with Vedic astrology), so lets use "modification" (the concept of modification, or modulation) instead...

Instead of "cancellation" (which is about "subtraction"), I think of it as "addition". Instead of one aspect subtracting another, the aspects add together. So, for example, a person can have a planet BOTH in detriment by sign and in exaltation by house and BOTH of these apply to the planet. This gives the person more options at how to use the planets energy/focus.

Adding on,

Tim

 

[JUPITERASC]

Re: addition, to dr. farr

dr. farr
Instead of "cancellation" (which is about "subtraction"), I think of it as "addition". Instead of one aspect subtracting another, the aspects add together

I agree with dr. farr that
– rather than 'cancellation' -
that as dr. farr has clarified "cancellation" is perhaps a "charged" term
because of its connection with Vedic astrology
and so
"modification" (the concept of modification, or modulation) instead is a more apt description of the process

So, for example, a person can have a planet BOTH in detriment by sign and in exaltation by house and BOTH of these apply to the planet

Not quite! Traditionally, no planet ever 'acquires exaltation by house' location.

So, for example Jupiter is exalted in the sign of Cancer
BUT if an exalted Jupiter in Cancer is located in 12th or 8th or 6th house
THEN that exalted Jupiter in Cancer encounters “accidental debility” aka 'modification' due to its house location.
SO if Jupiter is in any sign other than Cancer, Jupiter cannot 'be exalted'
i.e.
Location on an angle does not automatically confer planetary exaltation.
Jupiter can be exalted solely in the sign of Cancer.


BUT a planet in detriment CAN acquire some 'accidental dignity by house' location.

So Saturn in Leo is in detriment
BUT
may acquire some 'accidental dignity by house' location

IF
that detrimented Saturn in Leo is located in an angular house
i.e.
1st, 7th, 10th or 4th

BASICALLY
a planet cannot be BOTH in detriment AND exaltation simultaneously,
no matter what that planet's house location is.

This gives the person more options at how to use the planets energy/focus. Adding on, Tim

Accidental dignity and debility are taken into consideration
in order to accurately and fully assess a particular individual's natal chart.

 

[tsmall]

Re: addition, to dr. farr

Not quite! Fwiw IMO, traditionally, no planet ever 'acquires exaltation by house' location.

Recently I've started to wonder if, though this seems to be the generally accepted idea, there isn't some presumed logical house association between planets and their domicile/exaltation rulerships. There is another discussion I started here though that works with this idea.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Re: addition, to dr. farr

Recently I've started to wonder if, though this seems to be the generally accepted idea, there isn't some presumed logical house association between planets and their domicile/exaltation rulerships.

How would you describe/envisage that though?

There is another discussion I started here though that works with this idea.

The Thema Mundi discussion?

 

[The Ram]

Robert hand says that a planet in its fall or detriment can have that debility cancelled if its aspected by a dignified dispositer. Some vedics believe this as well.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Robert hand says that a planet in its fall or detriment
can have that debility cancelled if its aspected by a dignified dispositer.
Some vedics believe this as well.

Debility such as Fall or Detriment may well be MITIGATED
in various ways
but not 'totally cancelled out'

 

[The Ram]

From Robert Hand: "When a planet is recieved by a dignified ruler it gains some of that dignity, in an extreme example a planet thats debilitated if its recieved by a dignified ruler, the debility is cancelled and acts as if its dignified"

Source: robert hand on reception. Its on youtube.

Dont take it up with me jupiter, take it up with robert. Just be sure to include a smiley face, Im sure that will convince him of the error of his ways.

 

[JUPITERASC]

From Robert Hand: "When a planet is recieved by a dignified ruler it gains some of that dignity, in an extreme example a planet thats debilitated if its recieved by a dignified ruler, the debility is cancelled and acts as if its dignified"

Source: robert hand on reception. Its on youtube.

Dont take it up with me jupiter, take it up with robert. Just be sure to include a smiley face,
Im sure that will convince him of the error of his ways.

Robert Hand is not a member of our forum
For those who are interested to hear the extrapolated remark in context
of the entire two hour talk ON RECEPTION by ROBERT HAND
the youtube video referred to is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3k86s3OViM

QUOTE

'....Master astrologer Robert gives this insightful lecture on the Classic term "Reception"
revealing its authentic roots at the Blast Astrology Conference in the Creative Life Center in Sedona, Arizona.
More amazing lectures are available at BlastAstrologyConference.com....'


Clearly
IF a planet is received by a dignificed ruler
THEN IN AN EXTREME EXAMPLE
a debilitated planet
ACTS
AS IF DIGNIFIED

clearly then a debilitated planet remains debilitated
while acting AS IF dignified
but is still not dignified


i.e.
a debilitated planet remains debilitated
with 'the EXTREME exception'
of
having more resources when received by a dignified ruler
and therefore being able to ACT IN A DIGNIFIED MANNER