Yes, in original Ancient Greek, have you? Or you rely on bad translations?
I chose a translation that everyone has access via the internet. In the future, just for you, I'll choose translations that are only accessible by visiting the British Museum in London.
Regardless, the translation is not at issue, but nice attempt to deflect.
Why did you stop quoting?
Because it wasn't necessary to prove my point, but nice try at deflecting.
Was Ptolemy using Natal Charts to predict multiple births, or birth defects?
It's a simple question, and the answer is "No.' Ptolemy -- like others -- was using a Conception Chart to determine Multiple Births, Monstrous Births
and Rank of Fame.
One thing you can infer is that the Conception Chart is more powerful and provides a clearer picture of the Native -- at least for certain topics, and so it was preferred.
The problem with your exposure....
....is that it fills in all of the gaps....the bits and pieces that you left out.
....even though conception chart is very much important as I will show in my quote from Abū Bakr....[FONT="]
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We're talking about Ptolemy, not Abu Bakr, but nice attempt to deflect.
...– is you setting things in stone just like that.
I never set anything in stone.
You said Ptolemy used Natal Charts to determine Rank of Fame.
I pointed out that Ptolemy used Conception Charts, and that Ptolemy's work had been edited --- probably because those issues conflicted with someone's personal or religious beliefs, or because they were attempting to justify something.
The purpose of Astrology is to know the Future, not know the Past.
Going through all the motions to cast a Natal Chart to predict Twins is stupid, even more so since it would be after-the-fact.
You're ignoring the context of the time period...men in the Middle Class through Nobility often had multiple wives....hence the purpose of knowing at conception if a child will rule or wield power of any kind....knowing the gender of the child....and knowing if it will be a single or multiple birth.
There's no evidence Ptolemy used Natal Charts to determine Rank of Fame, and the fact that Ptolemy goes to great lengths to lay out a method to erect a Conception Chart using a Natal Chart says a great deal.
I know that you are an army person...
22 years ago...but nice attempt to deflect.
...but your definitive conclusion here is way out of hand.
My analysis is spot on....and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.
You want to tell me that the whole later tradition was just wrong by using natal chart and not conception chart just because they didn’t get Ptolemy just ‘the way you are getting it now’.
Yes.
Want evidence?
Why did Medieval Astrologers change the method of "Body-Guarding?"
Ptolemy used the Conception Chart to determine Rank of Fame...
and his method of Body-Guarding only works with the Conception Chart.
Medieval Astrologers were mistakenly trying to apply Ptolemy's method to Natal Charts.....and it didn't work....so they came up with a new method of Body-Guarding....and when that didn't work, centuries later they came up with another method of Body-Guarding.
So, yeah, there are three methods of identifying Body-Guards and the reason is that Medieval Astrologers were forced to develop an alternative method since Ptolemy's did not work with Natal Charts.....and when that failed, they developed a second method.
Common? Sense? That's what I'm bringing to the table.
Abū Ali in his ‘On Nativities’ speaks about this thing.
That would all be fascinating if it was even remotely relevant, but Abu Ali is not the issue here...Ptolemy is, but nice attempt at deflecting.
To the extent that Abu Ali might be relevant, then you have unwittingly provided evidence that Ptolemy's text was already altered before Abu Ali received it....possibly altered by Pseudo-Ptolemy.
What I don’t like in your exposure is your assumptions and your ‘all or nothing at all’ attitude.
On the contrary, I pointed out that just because a chart may show the potential for fame or high-standing rank, that potential cannot be fulfilled unless other factors in the chart support it. I also pointed out that fame and rank are not permanent...they can change.
Above where you stopped quoting (probably intentionally) from Ptolemy, he goes on to say that if one doesn’t know the hour of conception should use the natal chart because “it is necessary to attend to this, as it is the greatest and the very beginning and is lacking with respect to the conception only in this—that the circumstances prior to birth can be foreknown through that beginning”.
Ptolemy's work has been altered....I have provided clear and compelling evidence to support my claim. Sections of Ptolemy's texts have been moved around and even chapters renumbered.
You assume that you are catching Ptolemy and that no one else ever thought of this chapter and this matter, we were sleeping and you are enlightening us here.
Ptolemy is blameless. Ptolemy did not alter his own texts after he died...that's kind of silly, right?
Someone else altered the texts, probably in an attempt to justify something. Someone wanted a particular person to rule, and changed the texts to alter the method of determine Rank of Fame in order to support a fraudulent claim.
Such things have often happened throughout history. John the Bishop of Rome forged documents in order to mislead Emperor Justinian into making John the head of all bishops, and chief prosecutor of heretics. That happened in 533 CE, and John effectively became the first pope.
Yeah, YOU confused me, just as you try to confuse people around here with your ‘revolutionary award winning ideas’.
What is so confusing?
Did Ptolemy cast a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins, yes or no?
It's a simple question.
I'll rephrase the question:
Who here on this forum would cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict the birth of twins?
Who would cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict if the child will have birth defects?
Who here on this forum would cast a Natal Chart after a child was born to predict the gender of the child?
Okay, so, what, a female child is born and you're going to cast a Natal Chart to determine the gender of the female child?
Got it.
What is your source for this 'change in order'? Of which critical edition you speak and of which translation?
I am the source.
I was a cop, a detective, a private investigator and a paralegal, so it's not like I don't know how to conduct forensic analysis...not that it matters since it only requires common sense.
Ptolemy is discussing the Rank of Fame, immediately followed by Twins....
"With respect to the probability of the birth of twins, or a greater number at once, the same places must be observed, as those mentioned in the preceding chapter; that is to say, the places of both luminaries and the ascendant."
And the preceding chapter is what?
The Fortune of Rank.
Again....I ask......
is Ptolemy using a Natal Chart to predict the birth of twins?
No, Ptolemy is using the Conception Chart
to predict the Fortune of Rank and
to predict Twins and also
to predict Monstrous Births.
They didn't have printing presses in those days...works were copied by hand, and very obviously someone copied Ptolemy's work and edited it by changing the order of the texts.
That much is overwhelmingly clear.
If Ptolemy's method of determining Rank of Fame using his method of identifying Body-Guards worked with Natal Charts, then why were Medieval Astrologers forced to change the method of identifying Body-Guards?
And Medieval Astrologers did not change the method once, rather they changed it twice.
Why?
Because Ptolemy's Body-Guards didn't work with Natal Charts...Medieval Astrologers were forced to abandon that method and invent a new method....which ultimately failed and required that they invent a second method.
And how’s that that you are full with presumptions that I do not know how to incorporate them? Who thought you to be like this? Bad education or bad temper?
Your own comments....just to refresh your memory, you said....
Gosh, what about it?
OK what about it?
Why do you ask? How is this relevant to the discussion?
And?
You speak about the Ages of Man. Ok what about the Ages of Man?
...in response to my mention of the Lot of Sudden Advancement, the role of Saturn/Lot of Saturn, and the Time Ruler.
I merely provided additional critical information to forum members by making them aware that:
1] in spite of what the chart portends for fame and fortune, a person can suddenly advance in social class and standing, or in their profession, or become famous and renown, if the Lot so indicates; and
2] a person's rank, fame, standing or social class is not permanent or lasting, unless the chart promises that, and to make that determination, one looks at the condition and placement of Saturn in the chart; and
3] some people achieve rank and fame from the moment of birth, but for others it will not occur until later in life, and that the Time Ruler, as well as the placement of relevant Planets in the Houses indicating the stages of life can assist in making that judgment (and certainly Revolutions and Profections); and
4] finally, all considerations have to be weighed against a person's present rank, social stating, status and culture.
Yeah, you were sent from the heavens to teach us what astrology is.
Well, that would be impossible since there are no heavens.
Good morning. And what are my all the postings around this forum, if not implementing that astrology of which you are speaking in the quote above?
I don't know. I don't read all your postings.
I only know it's kind of daft to tell someone they are destined for fame, without also telling them when in their life they will acquire such fame, under what circumstances, and how long their fame will last.
When delineating the 2nd House, you can know if someone will acquire wealth, how much wealth relative to their social class or standing, the source of that wealth, when in their life they will acquire the bulk of their wealth.....and how long they will retain that wealth, and when they might lose all or part of their wealth...and Saturn will play a big role in that.
I mention that, because you can use your 2nd House judgment to assist with your 10th House judgment, since wealth and prominence/fame are often (but not always) related.
Note that from the 6th House you can judge someone's general state of health, if their health will change, when in their life they may move from a condition of poor health to good health, or good health to poor health, the circumstances, and how long their good or poor health will last.
Sometimes health issues cause prominent people to step down, and that's especially true for athletes and entertainers, and they are relegated to obscurity.
Did I mention the 2nd, 6th and 10th Houses trine? Imagine that.