Towards the end of capitalism?

[Yuusha]

Yuusha: I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but you seem to be one of those dreaded and feared socialists. You think that the government built by the people has a responsibility to take care of the people. You think poor people don't deserve to die from preventable conditions. You think that money is just a means to an end, not a god that outweighs human life. How could you be so insane?

Socialism is the idea that the needs of the people should be met by transparent, representative government that controls the resources of the people publicly, rather than allowing private ownership of necessities. In short, when the necessities for life are controlled privately, exploitation is the only expected result. If all necessities (or resources needed for them) are publicly controlled and given freely to the people as needed, that is a socialist system. So, here's a rocket science question. What kind of person wants to live under socialism and what kind wants to live under capitalism?

P.S. I'll say it again! Socialism made the United States great in the first place!

I guess if that is the definition of socialist...I fit that I guess because I care about the public interest. I think the concept of money can be outgrown as far as where it is needed for now.

@Zonark Have you ever heard of economist Herman Daly? He elegantly expressed the thought that an economy should be compatible with nature instead of having nature comply with the current concept of an economy.

It makes a lot of sense to me because without nature civilizations will fall and recovery will be much more difficult than if a civilization collapsed due to monetary problems.

And the concept of infinite material growth makes an economy lose its focus on providing basic needs and leads to material, social and environmental waste.

Of course I intend to examine more closely political situations of the past this weekend. I'll definitely look into the links posted here.

I think what still makes America great is the idealism taught in youth, and the discrepancy between idealism and real disappointments about the way things are has pushed many Americans to strive for what could be...Martin Luther King Jr., Henry David Thoreau, the Shakers (let's get past some of their weird beliefs about marriage and conception, at least they were right about gender and racial equality in the 19th century), Smedley Butler and Rachel Carson to name a few.

The question is shall America settle for the low expectations of a dictatorship of economic interests that stifles democracy and innovation or shall America decide to make the ideals of freedom and democracy more real, politically and economically (I do not think workplaces should be monarchies)?
That is the challenge of Pluto in Capricorn squaring Uranus in Aries.


But I'll say this, I've always tried not to be reduced to a label because I've always feared the negative connotation of the term socialist.

I've always tried to look "unique" so that my ideas can be examined objectively.

But I think the number of people and animals dying from pesticides, the number of people dying from preventable diseases, the number of people suffering from financial stress, ethical problems in the workplace, the number of homeless people, the number of people starving to death, the number of people and animals suffering from environmental pollution, the number of people dying in car accidents, the number of people dying in wars, the number of people dying in crimes (usually caused by either poor relationships or financial stress), the number of people dying from a lack of adequate storm infrastructure and the number of people dying from deceptive advertising practices such as the promotion of tobacco for men by Marlboro Man, for women by Edward Bernays and for kids by Camel can make deaths caused by capitalism similar to Stalin or Pol Pot's atrocities.

It's just that the system is impersonal, and moral responsibility does not exist in such as system because the profit motive (or cutting costs wherever possible) excuses all. This is most evident when trying to grapple with social or environmental problems resulting from capitalism.

The Founders were extremely concerned about the intrusiveness of British government when Pluto in Capricorn was around. But now it is up to us to recognize the abuses committed in the name of the political system and the economic system.
We must respect the successes of the past and respond to the failures of past and present. We cannot cling to the notion that only the 18th century mindset was right, it is woefully insufficient today and an update is needed.

I am a hard worker, but I'm struggling to find full-time jobs where the salary is sufficient, where I can push the envelope intellectually without fear of retribution, where I can be effective, where I can be expressive and where I can use my physical potential. Hopefully I can reach black belt and start a karate dojo because that is something I'd really like to do in addition to my current part time job doing environmental work (where the focus is on what the average person can do, not so much urging congress or the EPA to do something...so I like it very much, it's just that the salary is not enough).

I want to be able to do ethical work that uses my talents and that pays enough (since for now, I have to put up with a system where food and shelter have to be paid for...).

I'm ultimately motivated by a sense of challenge, the mastery of new skills and a desire to help. That's my personal incentive.

I want effort to be rewarded, and I do not think capitalism really provides that. When innovation or when probing research bumps heads with old sources of profit, with funding sources...problems abound.

Capitalism doesn't reward transparency either. It rewards people who want to keep information under wraps instead of people who want to make information known. Trade secrets for instance make it difficult to know the health effects of the ingredients of a product (so the concept of patents to protect a person's profits has limits regarding consumer health).

As far as effort is concerned, in order to be able to travel or get imports, I think there should be an hourly salary that can be earned doing productive work, relaxing, taking care of one's health (including sleeping, an under-valued necessity), raising kids, having good relationships with others, doing household chores...and there would be a bonus for personal breakthroughs. Basic needs will not need to be fought for so long as nature indicates that there are enough resources to have food or shelter, that's the real budget that should count.
And the money system I propose is temporary...until the whole world has outgrown the need for money.
I'm someone who recognizes the inherent worth of a substance and do not need a price tag to indicate a sense of worth.

And I think there should be consensus decision-making on figuring out what jobs are needed for a society to function, and people can decide whether they want to do it or if they want to build robots if they find a job to be too back-breaking. Innovation is welcome to make daily life easier (just the other day, I've learned that ice cleats and snow shoes can reduce the need for toxic de-icing salts on sidewalks), the only barrier is that it shouldn't break nature's bank (instead of having to juggle money and ideas, which can work, but works less effectively than the focus on juggling nature and ideas).

I used to despair, but I have more of a can-do attitude than in the past, and I hope I can apply my hopes and dreams.

 

[Choe]

I'm with Eternalwanderer and Mark about the socialist capitalism.

I dislike both in their pure form, and think a mix of both is the best solution.

 

[eternal wanderer]

Yes. Let's finally throw the mask that socialsm have failed. In fact I could hardly name a country which is or was mainly socialistic. Instead, there are many countries in which elements and forms of socialism have developed, however under a disguise of onother name. What the eastern bloc experienced in the previous century is far from what the ideals of socialism or even communism are. Because how can you distribute fairly and equally if you deprive freedom and individuality?
The right ideals where there from the french revolution onward and around 1848. But Neptune just appeared then - a big illusion. Now Neptune has return to Pisces and finished his first cycle since we know him. And I believe we are much more conscious of him now than then.
The reason why socialism failed and communism does not seem feasible is very simple, i.e. the lower nature in man. The grasping greedy man.

All nature by inclination turns toward the source of energy (the Sun) to absorb it and live and prosper by it. Nothing is differnt with man, only the thing that he possesses a developed mind. When he first got this new tool — because it is nothing more than a tool — he started to exploit it to satisfy the necessities of his belly. Nothing is changed now only that these necessities have become broader than mere food and shelter. From this wanting and greed developed. The push behind is the same as in a flower which is turning towards the Sun. It is the misuse of mind for a wrong cause that have been causing so much suffering in the world. And this misuse was natural and was expected because of the level of consciousness of individuals who possessed mind.

But we must pass in a higher grade now. Each newly discovered planet braught a new awerness with it. Uranus braught it, as well as Neptune and Pluto did. Our current history and political system was made possible mostly by the french and the industrial revolution, which appeared when Uranus was discoverd; and we really can't think to go back to the medieval mentality! Neptune also gave a new awerness and Pluto too. All of them announced an expansion of consciousness from medievality and barbarism. Now Eris, which is bigger than Pluto and myriads of objects are being discoverd everyday. All must bring new awerness with them. What I want to say is that it seems we reached a point of accelerated expansion of consciousness. Individually as well as collectively. By the mind or rather through the mind, which in the beginning we used (and still do) for our petty desires, we are now discovering that our ''seeking for the Sun'' — the food of life — is hindered by these desires and low impulses. And I believe we are approaching with great rapidity the moment in which our higher self will want to express itself and throw off the unnecessary bonds of the lower nature which is enslaving us. And when this will be done a spiritual communism will manifest by itself as the most logical and natural.

 

[Mark]

I posted the following in another thread and it actually makes more sense for it to be here. I've made minor alterations to make it more pertinent to this thread. To understand these systemic problems, we need only understand our own nature.

Suffering is the least efficient way to learn. If a person is capable of accepting the Truth (learning their "lessons") with less suffering, then the path of less suffering will be used. There are many better ways of learning than suffering. The problem is that all those other ways can be denied. When a person demands to have subjective reality (my reality is what I choose it to be) and demands to listen only to themselves, and not anyone else in existence (absolute hubris), then the only avenue of learning that can still grab that person is subjective suffering.

If you were to look at a flame and honestly believe that it cannot cause you harm nor pain, you might do something like stick your hand in the flame. After you get finished cursing and screaming because of the pain it caused you, you will have the opportunity to understand that there is a reality which governs the flame and it does not care that you didn't believe in it. Reality is not subjective and you don't get what you want just because you want it. Reality is reality. What you believe is a choice that usually has little to do with reality.

This was the foundation for the tower of Babel. Those sons of plunder built for themselves a system of protection. They did not try to end suffering. They tried to end suffering for themselves only. They wanted to raise themselves above the floods, above the retribution for the acts they perpetrated against the rest of humanity. In short, they wanted to get all of what they want and none of what they don't want, and they didn't care at all what anyone else got. It was all about winning and losing. We see this same thing being built today. It isn't a literal tower, but a system of protection to allow the most affluent of people to have all the control in the world without any responsibility or liability. The tower shall fall once again. Demanding subjectivism to be just as good as reality is a crime as old as humanity. People can't change physics, so we play God by refusing to see that we are a part of a living system and cannot be separated from it.

The tower of Babel is the symbol of raising yourself above other people. It is the symbol of taking everything desirable for yourself and shoving everything undesirable onto others. It is receiving everything you want and being obligated to nothing. It is the symbol of conquest; uncaring, forceful desire. In short, it is the symbol of true selfishness. This is why the tower burns in the tarot. The tower always burns.

Vista: I believe we can bank on the fact that the guy who wants to have more than others will always be willing to work to have more than others. If he only had the opportunity to have nicer things than others instead of building an empire of wage-slaves, would he still be willing to work for it? Yes. Just because nobody gets the option to become a tyrannical despot doesn't mean that no one will be willing to work for anything. If someone is driven by a need to dominate others, our society has a vested interest in protecting everyone else from this inconsiderate person whose behaviour will both break the system and cause human suffering. No matter how anyone spins it, greed is not good.

piercethevale: Our Declaration of Independence is a half-hair short of being a socialist manifesto. In fact, I believe that our founders would have declared us to be a socialist nation if the word "socialist" had been in such usage at the time. If all the good things in our country don't seem socialist, then maybe you just need to read up on socialism!

"... all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." ...that is what is known as being 'meek'...that is, 'long suffering"...'turning the other cheek'...

I must disagree here. I have for all of my life been more apt to change myself than the average person. It irritates the **** out of everyone. While everyone else is talking about practicality, I'm the one who is concerned with the principles of what we should be doing. I don't think the average American's resistance to change has anything to do with meekness. That's just far too noble. The real causes are laziness and avoidance of discomfort. It's "hard-headedness," as if ignoring a problem can be a solution. This is what most people do most of the time, both individually and collectively.

Long-suffering is suffering for an extended period of time for the sake of goodness. Is it good to allow our society to continue in this deteriorated and deteriorating fashion? Turning the other cheek, long-suffering, and meekness can be constructive or they can be applied in an enabling, destructive kind of way. It is my place to love all people and to be kind to them. I have no obligation, however, to obey the command nor judgment of any man or woman. Service to God is good, but does serving the whims of social elites amount to serving God? It is usually the opposite.

and not by omission...please!?!...because; "I didn't provide you with free medical and you died!"... is not my Karma.

Yes, it is your karma! Remember that the Master quickly forgives sins of commission, but sins of omission He brings to mind (according to Edgar Cayce). Are you your brother's keeper? All who answer as Cain did will receive the same as he. Is your brother's welfare just as much your responsibility as his? Yes! Then it is your karma! This is the law. As you have given, so shall you receive in every context. In what kind of world do you want to live? Will you live in a world where your brother's needs are not your problem? That is where you live now! If you want the ways of the Earth, you shall stay in the Earth. As you have explained yourself: in the kingdom of God, every person's need is every person's obligation.

General Address: In the United States, everything is valued based on confidence (what someone is willing to trade/pay in exchange). Ask any appraiser of any kind. The value of your house is based on the value of houses around it (confidence). The value of stocks is, by definition, based on confidence. The value of the dollar itself is based on confidence. There is not one thing that anchors the U.S. dollar to anything solid. It occurred to me last night that there is a way to stop our economic decline and that is going back on the gold standard. We wouldn't be going back up quickly, but at least we would have a floor to hit instead of spiraling into indefinite inflation. If dropping quickly is our only other option, then locking ourselves into the price of gold should effectively "put on the brakes." In reality, we started out on the gold standard because it is obviously the more stable foundation. It just doesn't allow money to be made up or erased on a whim.

 

[piercethevale]

piercethevale: Our Declaration of Independence is a half-hair short of being a socialist manifesto. In fact, I believe that our founders would have declared us to be a socialist nation if the word "socialist" had been in such usage at the time. If all the good things in our country don't seem socialist, then maybe you just need to read up on socialism!

"Mark"...No, I don't need to read up on it...like I said...there's a difference between 'Socialism' and 'Communalism"...watch the 2000 AD movie "Ride With The Devil" and note what is said at the farmhouse where the father speaks about why the North will win the war...Socialism is not what had been the intentions of a great many..if not the most of the founders of this country. You forget that my mothers family, the Houghs, were of the first Quakers in Pennsylvania and were both founding Quaker fathers of that state and of the Union a hundred years later. [In fact my great uncle was a good friend of G. Washington, whom spent a few nights on different occasions staying at the Hough Home"

I must disagree here. I have for all of my life been more apt to change myself than the average person. It irritates the **** out of everyone. While everyone else is talking about practicality, I'm the one who is concerned with the principles of what we should be doing. I don't think the average American's resistance to change has anything to do with meekness. That's just far too noble. The real causes are laziness and avoidance of discomfort. It's "hard-headedness," as if ignoring a problem can be a solution. This is what most people do most of the time, both individually and collectively.

"Mark": Not much of a Christian....are ya?...or you certainly seem to not be able to recognize others that are. "Render unto Caesar..." Once we get the 'Money Changers' out of our 'Temple'...things will be aright again...long suffering has its' limits...turning the other cheek more than once is something I rarely do...then its' clobbering time....yes, a Christian is not restricted to "Pacificism"...If you believe otherwise it is only because you have been brainwashed or deluded by propaganda.



Yes, it is your karma! Remember that the Master quickly forgives sins of commission, but sins of omission He brings to mind (according to Edgar Cayce). Are you your brother's keeper? All who answer as Cain did will receive the same as he. Is your brother's welfare just as much your responsibility as his? Yes! Then it is your karma! This is the law. As you have given, so shall you receive in every context. In what kind of world do you want to live? Will you live in a world where your brother's needs are not your problem? That is where you live now! If you want the ways of the Earth, you shall stay in the Earth. As you have explained yourself: in the kingdom of God, every person's need is every person's obligation.

"Mark"...no, you didn't read me right...If I'm in Seattle and you are in Atlanta and I don't know you and you die because I won't subsidize universal health care...it's not my Karma...it is my Karma if I allow conditions that cause your illness...but not mine that you let yourself get sick and you didn't take care of your self.

General Address: In the United States, everything is valued based on confidence (what someone is willing to trade/pay in exchange). Ask any appraiser of any kind. The value of your house is based on the value of houses around it (confidence). The value of stocks is, by definition, based on confidence. The value of the dollar itself is based on confidence. There is not one thing that anchors the U.S. dollar to anything solid. It occurred to me last night that there is a way to stop our economic decline and that is going back on the gold standard. We wouldn't be going back up quickly, but at least we would have a floor to hit instead of spiraling into indefinite inflation. If dropping quickly is our only other option, then locking ourselves into the price of gold should effectively "put on the brakes." In reality, we started out on the gold standard because it is obviously the more stable foundation. It just doesn't allow money to be made up or erased on a whim.

"Mark"...good...it sounds as if you do know your 'Economics/Finance' and or read about the history of the Money Changers and or the vid I provided a link for. http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=175
__________________

 

[Zonark]

I guess if that is the definition of socialist...I fit that I guess because I care about the public interest. I think the concept of money can be outgrown as far as where it is needed for now.

@Zonark Have you ever heard of economist Herman Daly? He elegantly expressed the thought that an economy should be compatible with nature instead of having nature comply with the current concept of an economy.

It makes a lot of sense to me because without nature civilizations will fall and recovery will be much more difficult than if a civilization collapsed due to monetary problems.

And the concept of infinite material growth makes an economy lose its focus on providing basic needs and leads to material, social and environmental waste.

Of course I intend to examine more closely political situations of the past this weekend. I'll definitely look into the links posted here.

I think what still makes America great is the idealism taught in youth, and the discrepancy between idealism and real disappointments about the way things are has pushed many Americans to strive for what could be...Martin Luther King Jr., Henry David Thoreau, the Shakers (let's get past some of their weird beliefs about marriage and conception, at least they were right about gender and racial equality in the 19th century), Smedley Butler and Rachel Carson to name a few.

The question is shall America settle for the low expectations of a dictatorship of economic interests that stifles democracy and innovation or shall America decide to make the ideals of freedom and democracy more real, politically and economically (I do not think workplaces should be monarchies)?
That is the challenge of Pluto in Capricorn squaring Uranus in Aries.


But I'll say this, I've always tried not to be reduced to a label because I've always feared the negative connotation of the term socialist.

I've always tried to look "unique" so that my ideas can be examined objectively.

But I think the number of people and animals dying from pesticides, the number of people dying from preventable diseases, the number of people suffering from financial stress, ethical problems in the workplace, the number of homeless people, the number of people starving to death, the number of people and animals suffering from environmental pollution, the number of people dying in car accidents, the number of people dying in wars, the number of people dying in crimes (usually caused by either poor relationships or financial stress), the number of people dying from a lack of adequate storm infrastructure and the number of people dying from deceptive advertising practices such as the promotion of tobacco for men by Marlboro Man, for women by Edward Bernays and for kids by Camel can make deaths caused by capitalism similar to Stalin or Pol Pot's atrocities.

It's just that the system is impersonal, and moral responsibility does not exist in such as system because the profit motive (or cutting costs wherever possible) excuses all. This is most evident when trying to grapple with social or environmental problems resulting from capitalism.

The Founders were extremely concerned about the intrusiveness of British government when Pluto in Capricorn was around. But now it is up to us to recognize the abuses committed in the name of the political system and the economic system.
We must respect the successes of the past and respond to the failures of past and present. We cannot cling to the notion that only the 18th century mindset was right, it is woefully insufficient today and an update is needed.

I am a hard worker, but I'm struggling to find full-time jobs where the salary is sufficient, where I can push the envelope intellectually without fear of retribution, where I can be effective, where I can be expressive and where I can use my physical potential. Hopefully I can reach black belt and start a karate dojo because that is something I'd really like to do in addition to my current part time job doing environmental work (where the focus is on what the average person can do, not so much urging congress or the EPA to do something...so I like it very much, it's just that the salary is not enough).

I want to be able to do ethical work that uses my talents and that pays enough (since for now, I have to put up with a system where food and shelter have to be paid for...).

I'm ultimately motivated by a sense of challenge, the mastery of new skills and a desire to help. That's my personal incentive.

I want effort to be rewarded, and I do not think capitalism really provides that. When innovation or when probing research bumps heads with old sources of profit, with funding sources...problems abound.

Capitalism doesn't reward transparency either. It rewards people who want to keep information under wraps instead of people who want to make information known. Trade secrets for instance make it difficult to know the health effects of the ingredients of a product (so the concept of patents to protect a person's profits has limits regarding consumer health).

As far as effort is concerned, in order to be able to travel or get imports, I think there should be an hourly salary that can be earned doing productive work, relaxing, taking care of one's health (including sleeping, an under-valued necessity), raising kids, having good relationships with others, doing household chores...and there would be a bonus for personal breakthroughs. Basic needs will not need to be fought for so long as nature indicates that there are enough resources to have food or shelter, that's the real budget that should count.
And the money system I propose is temporary...until the whole world has outgrown the need for money.
I'm someone who recognizes the inherent worth of a substance and do not need a price tag to indicate a sense of worth.

And I think there should be consensus decision-making on figuring out what jobs are needed for a society to function, and people can decide whether they want to do it or if they want to build robots if they find a job to be too back-breaking. Innovation is welcome to make daily life easier (just the other day, I've learned that ice cleats and snow shoes can reduce the need for toxic de-icing salts on sidewalks), the only barrier is that it shouldn't break nature's bank (instead of having to juggle money and ideas, which can work, but works less effectively than the focus on juggling nature and ideas).

I used to despair, but I have more of a can-do attitude than in the past, and I hope I can apply my hopes and dreams.

No I haven't heard of Herman Daly but an economic model like that sounds quite appealing to my sensibilities.

If more people were like you I think this world would be an easier more harmonious place to live in.

 

[Zonark]

Zonark, Bible 101...the love of money is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy, 6:10


Which perhaps explains Matthew 19:24?



Having said this...I am not a Christian (not traditionally, anyway..May the Force be with you?)

Today's economic problems (and yesterday's, and tomorrow's) IMHO stem from the fact that most people don't want to think about the economic problems. Heck, we just want to live our lives, eat our dinners, and go to bed feeling like we matter. As Mark and JUPITERASC have implied above, it's really about manupliation of the masses (and always has been, by those seeking power over others) by the disemination of controlled information. The only way this ever will change (and, historically, the masses have come together to effect change...we just need to be "uncomfortable" enough to do so) is when enough people are fed up with not having their needs met...

The love of money and not money itself... that is an important distinction, thanks. Yes, revolutions are usually a result of people being fed up with being mistreated and are rarely started for intellectual reasons, which is a **** shame. It shows how much survival dominates most people's lives.

 

[Zonark]

It would appear then that capitalism has already ended Zonark

Yes, yes it would. There is really no proper academic term for the kind of government we live under currently, but it is basically ruled by the Federal Reserve's policies and production rate (their product being dollars). More directly too, as we're discovering increasing amounts of money being surreptitiously given to politicians and government workers from the Fed (not directly of course, through one of their numerous proxies).

 

[piercethevale]

My Oakie cousins just sent me this...I love my cousins...but they is little light in the ole gray matter dept.

"Thomas Sowell (born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social
Theorist, political philosopher, and author. National Humanities
Medal winner, he advocates laissez-faire economics and writes from a
Libertarian perspective. He is currently a Rose and Milton Friedman
Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution at Stanford
University. Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem,
New York. He dropped out of high school, and served in the United
States Marine Corps during the Korean War. He had received a
Bachelor’s degree from Harvard University in 1958 and a master's
Degree from Columbia University in 1959. In 1968, he earned his
Doctorate degree in economics from the University of Chicago. Dr.
Sowell has served on the faculties of several universities, including
Cornell and University of California, Los Angeles, and worked for
"Think tanks" such as the Urban Institute. Since 1980 he has worked at
The Hoover Institution. He is the author of more than 30 books.



By Dr. Sowell

The current Occupy Wall Street movement is the best illustration to
Date of what President Barack Obama's America looks like. It is an
America where the lawless, unaccomplished, ignorant and incompetent
Rule. It is an America where those who have sacrificed nothing pillage
And destroy the lives of those who have sacrificed greatly.

It is an America where history is rewritten to honor dictators,
Murderers and thieves. It is an America where violence, racism,
Hatred, class warfare and murder are all promoted as acceptable means
Of overturning the American civil society.

It is an America where humans have been degraded to the level of
Animals: defecating in public, having sex in public, devoid of basic
Hygiene. It is an America where the basic tenets of a civil society,
Including faith, family, a free press and individual rights, have been
Rejected. It is an America where our founding documents have been
Shredded and, with them, every person’s guaranteed liberties.

It is an America where, ultimately, great suffering will come to the
American people, but the rulers like Obama, Michelle Obama, and Harry
Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, Jesse
Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, liberal college professors, union bosses and
Other loyal liberal/Communist Party members will live in opulent
Splendor.

It is the America that Obama and the Democratic Party have created
With the willing assistance of the American media, Hollywood, unions,
Universities, the Communist Party of America, the Black Panthers and
Numerous anti-American foreign entities.

Barack Obama has brought more destruction upon this country in four
Years than any other event in the history of our nation, but it is
Just the beginning of what he and his comrades are capable of.

The Occupy Wall Street movement is just another step in their plan for
The annihilation of America.

"Socialism, in general, has a record of failure so blatant that only
An intellectual could ignore or evade it."

Thomas Sowell

 

[piercethevale]

"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by sword. The other is by debt." John Adams 1826

 

[piercethevale]

i also received this today...I'm forwarding it to as many people as possible.


Thought that you might like some of these ideas.................
Warren Buffett on debt ceiling

Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the
best quotes about the debt ceiling:

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple! The people demanded it.
That was in 1971...before computers, e-mail, cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took 1 year
or less to become the law of the land...all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2011

1. No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they are out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void
effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen. Congressmen made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in
Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers
envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their
term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will
only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive
the message. Maybe it is time.

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!!!!!

If you agree with the above, pass it on. If not, just delete.
You are one of my 20+.... Please keep it going.

 

[piercethevale]

Here...watch this clip from 4:40" on ...it tells it like it is [was]...don't take what Mr. Evans says about the South to be that they were selfish..['We only care about ourselves"}...in context to the story it means that the majority of southerners respected anothers right to be left alone...as I mentioned earlier.

My mothers family was there...and it's as close to the truth in a movie as you''ll get to the actual truth [pretty d@mn close...btw...the book "Woe To Ride On" is top notch...and the movie is true blue to the book but the events are compressed so as to fit it all in a movie.

[Mom always said Federal intervention in the individual states educational systems is a 'Great Evil'...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hRKoGjYc4U&feature=related

 

[Lihirakash]

There are some astrological similarities between Oct. 29, 1929 (the Great Wall Street crash) and the date June 11, 2012:





On June 11, 2012 Pluto (R), Uranus and Mercury are in an almost exact T-square. [On Oct. 29, 1929 Pluto (R) was in a nearly exact square to Mercury.] Although on June 11, Pluto (R) will be in opposition to Mercury, instead of square to it (as it was on Oct. 29, 1929), the overall configuration may be worse because of the presence of the T-square that now also involves Uranus. (Uranus incidentally will be about one degree conjunct the Mars - Pluto midpoint of the natal U.S. chart.)

On both Oct. 29, 1929 and June 11, 2012 Uranus is at 8 degrees Aries.

On June 11, 2012 Mars is less than two degrees square the Sun. On Oct. 29, 1929 Mars was exactly inconjunct Jupiter. [See http://www.ishalerner.com/blog_5/?p=67 where the author, Mark, says "you always need to factor Mars into any economic crisis as it always functions to some extent as a triggering mechanism – inflaming a situation, adding a rash/reckless nature to the proceedings, and – particularly – injecting a sense of panic that leads to major bouts of volatility and, for the majority of traders, losses due irrational exuberance".]

In the earlier part of June 11, 2012, Jupiter is less than one degree away from 00 degrees 20 minutes Gemini, which is the position of the annular solar eclipse that will have occurred on May 20, 2012. So, again, the affairs of Gemini (such as commerce) may be greatly impacted (possibly triggering the Mercury-Pluto-Uranus T-square).

So, on June 11, 2012 a repeat of the the Wall Street crash of Oct. 1929 may very well happen, and the final end to capitalism as we know it. That'll give us six months to prepare for the global raising of consciousness on Dec. 21, 2012.

 

[Mark]

No relation.

By "prepare for the global raising of consciousness," do you mean "degenerate into vicious animals that destroy each other due to fear?"

 

[Yuusha]

No I haven't heard of Herman Daly but an economic model like that sounds quite appealing to my sensibilities.

If more people were like you I think this world would be an easier more harmonious place to live in.

Thanks for the compliment, Zonark. I do my best to understand what is going on in order to figure out what's best.

In fact I have sent some of my proposals to Senator Bernie Sanders because he proposed a constitutional amendment ending corporate personhood. My only concern is that it can be easily rolled back like the Glass-Steagall Act (a hard-earned law because FDR after all attracted the anger of Wall Street. But Bill Clinton repealed the law...) or that it can become a joke like the EPA (which has been corrupted by the focus on economic interests rather than public health, though they occasionally do something for public health, despite the attempts of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs of the White House to undermine the EPA's efforts for the last 30 years).

Despite the hard-earned efforts to make sure that the "organic" label was truly organic ten years ago, standards may be lowered again...Even the Fair Trade label from Fair Trade USA may become meaningless. I don't like having a system where selling out and lowering quality is financially tempting.

I prefer developing a system that acknowledges that without health or an environment, humanity is reduced to nothing.

The problem with proposing public interest proposals such as ecological proposals or public health proposals in the monetary system or attempts to make the monetary system fairer is that there will always be someone who can undo the gains that have been made.

So I'd rather develop a system where common sense is applied more easily.

So I proposed to Senator Bernie Sanders a system where his amendment would retain meaning. I focused on how a new economic system (with transitional elements) could work, how I think the workplace can be a better place (with the creation of an agency dedicated to making sure that people are happy at work, but I realize that OSHA could have that added power), how the political system can be more responsive and fluid to people's differences and discoveries and even how to deal with protests better. My personal belief is that a political democracy cannot be had without an economic democracy.

I feel like the concept of economics for the most part has awfully deviated from the goal of striving to ensure basic needs for humanity. It has become a rigid belief structure. As a scientist, I think this is unacceptable.

So I was glad to hear the perspective of Herman Daly because it really got me thinking about how economics can become a science instead of a limiting belief.

@piercethevale

When it comes to societal, political and economic issues, solutions must be examined without prejudice and without fear instilled by prior concepts. And yes, sometimes it even means examining societal customs.

People are understandably afraid of that, but sacrificing prior beliefs is not as scary as sacrificing healthcare or the post office to keep afloat an inherently stagnant and self-destructive political-economic system.

I also think it's unacceptable that in the current political-economic system, declaring war or undermining civil liberties is easier to propose than to ensure quality education or to have clean air to breathe or clean water to drink.

Yes, people should be left alone as long as what they do doesn't harm the health or the environment of a community. The 21st century is an age where the community will be just as important as the individual. I'm somebody who wants to apply the concept of "my self-interest benefits the interests of others" (I do practice that belief, it works).

I wasn't too impressed by Thomas Sowell (also, the University of Chicago's economics school is incredibly conservative).

His demonization of OWS is pretty astounding, bewildering and difficult to believe.

If anything, the Occupy Wall Street movement has allowed people to rebuild a sense of community. It has even updated the concept of democracy with consensus-ruled general assemblies (on the one hand, an idea will have to wait for its time to shine, but at the same time, it will create less animosity than narrow majority rules that create winners and bitter losers).

People live atomized existences where they go to work, they're in their car for several hours, they go home and the cycle starts all over again. In high-crime areas, people are even scared of interacting with their neighbors.

Some people are lucky enough to share their thoughts with their colleagues in the workplace, to talk to nice people on buses, to have loving families to talk to and to have hobbies where they can talk to kind people.

But not everyone has that chance, so at least OWS is helping rebuild the social fabric that has been lost.

When an economic system pits humans against each other for survival (even the robber or the drug dealer is looking for a quick buck) and when an economic system rewards sociopathic people like Michael Bloomberg (a heartless mayor of NYC, who is deaf to the complaints about the high cost of living in NYC) instead of caring, passionate people like Dr. Tyrone Hayes (a dedicated researcher who deeply cares about frogs and is angry that the herbicide atrazine modifies the gender of frogs and deforms frog limbs, which both make frog survival difficult in the wild. If anyone here is pro-life, seriously think about this!), people would be afraid of talking to one another. An alternative is needed for the sake of healthier human relationships.

The Occupy Wall Street movement will bring about the rebirth of America.

The main reason why Sowell is scared is because he does not know how he can fit into the new society that is emerging, especially with his paranoid view of things. He has kept the Cold War mentality, which has made him scared of anything different from capitalism.

But capitalism is doomed to fail because it requires sacrificing human souls and the Earth in order to work. In order to preserve the human soul and man's place on the planet, an alternative is needed.

Yes Obama has caused a lot of damage to the United States, but I think it's because of his pro-corporate policies (after all, he has lobby money from the insurance industry, the big banks, the military-industrial complex, Wall Street...), and the way he treats whistleblowers much more harshly than suspected war criminals in the Bush administration for Iraq and Afghanistan (but then again, the Obama administration is suspected of similar war crimes too in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc.). I feel like Republicans wanted to depict Obama as a leftist so badly so that people would believe in the myth of the two-party system, even though the Democratic and Republican parties are very similar, especially when it comes to issues involving civil liberties, corporations and war. Romney's healthcare plan in Massachusetts only increases the profits of the health insurance companies, it does not guarantee affordable healthcare! Obama's healthcare reform was just a nation-wide version of Romney's disastrous plan.

As far as Congress is concerned, it is better to ditch the idea of a Congress. The US has the means to have public squares to discuss issues and even online public squares. That way people can always have the opportunity to contribute without making it a job. Occasionally people can be elected according to their expertise to solve a specific problem such as the implementation of a healthcare program etc.

And the concept of a standing professional army should be questioned, I agree with you. If an army is needed, I wonder if it should only be activated when there is a real emergency and when people believe in a war. That way, if a war is unpopular, it cannot be fought, and if an unresponsive government wants to send in the military against protesters, it cannot be done.

If a system (political, economic or otherwise) is corrupt, people need to have the means to be self-sufficient to dissociate themselves from it until a better system can be devised.

A one-person dictatorship makes opposition to a system difficult for obvious reasons.

But the concept of working for a living makes opposition to a system difficult as well because it makes it hard for some people to avoid working for corrupt institutions or to find the time to protest without getting fired or falling behind on bills when it is the only check available against corporate and government tyranny. It is a more subtle form of coercion, but it does exist.

@Lihirakash

I think the internet age has prepared humanity for the end of capitalism in a way. I feel like it is more natural to share information than to make people pay for information, for instance, as a result of using the internet for several years.

The internet also provided a place of conversation and a sense of community for people who do not have the chance to mingle and share thoughts with others.

I think June 21, 2012 will probably bring a break-down that will lead to a rebirth of America in December 2012, with the development of an economic system that respects and honors life.

Having an economy rely on a casino like Wall Street is unacceptable.

@Mark

Yes, printed paper is founded on debt, which is a self-defeating concept. However, even gold is not a good idea because mining gold pollutes the environment, there is a limited supply of gold in the world that should be used for something else other than currency, and wars have been fought over gold (I wouldn't want gold to be the new oil!). That's why I think that if a temporary currency is needed to ensure imports and travel, then I think an electronic currency (so there is no material limit to how much one can earn, it's not even limited by an employer's ability to pay a salary) based on the positive stuff people do for themselves and others every day is a more accurate measurement of value.


@Vista

California is in bad shape, there is no question about it. At some point, I considered applying for a job in California, but I decided to apply elsewhere because conditions didn't sound livable (crime, cost of living etc.). Automobile manufacturers should've thought about the valleys before designing polluting cars because I think it will take a long time to clean up the air that is trapped in the valley. As a result, even with environmental regulations, the air pollution in California is still some of the worst in the country.

 

[Mark]

Yuusha: I'm not saying that re-attaching ourselves to the gold standard could be a permanent solution. We've tried that before and the gold standard has its problems too. The only point I was making with the gold standard was about damage control. If spiraling into indefinite inflation is our only other option, the gold standard could at least "put on the brakes." It certainly isn't a perfect economic foundation.

 

[Yuusha]

@Mark I understand where you're coming from concerning the gold standard because gold is more stable than debt. It is true that before building a new economy, the question is how to snap out of the current one with debts and inflation outstanding.

I was thinking about defaulting and starting completely from scratch.

I admit though with my geological background, I see metals as delicate objects to mine sparingly, with the least amount of pollution possible and as needed. Of course more development could be put into making synthetic metals, but I'd rather use those metals in computer science etc.

 

[Mark]

Solution: The federal government of the U.S. absorbs the Federal Reserve and all of its holdings, making the federal government the only official bank in the country (many people mistakingly believe this is the way things already are). Make usury (the charging of interest) illegal (again) and apply taxes each year according to what percentage of the country's wealth each individual and corporation (separately) control (not the annual income), without any loopholes for anyone. Only those who control more than 0.1% of the country's wealth (which is many times more than most citizens will see in a lifetime) should need to pay taxes at all.

If we did these things, we would have more money than we could spend because OUR money would become OUR money again. We have been producing ridiculous amounts of wealth in this country, but only a few people ever get to enjoy it. It is truly outrageous how very well each and every one of us could live if the fruits of our collective labour were owned collectively, rather than sitting in the deep pockets of only a few people.

 

[piercethevale]

One of my FB friends in Maine posted this today...[she's a 71 year old artist that is quite active and, she is, quite the 'Activist'. An excellent painter too...btw]
It's one of those 'educational cartoons' that the schools were fond of showing in the 50s and 60s when I was growing up [I graduated H.S. in '71]...it was apparently made about 1950...I'm posting it here for all to consider...I going to have to watch it again myself...[as, I'm not endorsing it ...but, not condemning it either...just yet....but I'm more towards the former...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE


...Ism is or Ism ain't...that's the question...but, I've already stated and am on the record for saying "the only 'Ism' is "Compassionism'."

 

[Yuusha]

Thanks for the video piercethevale.

Hmm, the snake-oil salesperson in the video reminds me of certain cell-phone agreements that people can't get out of without paying a huge wad of cash in the form of termination fees.

From what I've read about the 1950s, it sounded like a terrible time where authoritarianism and fear dominated America. And people didn't think enough about the consequences of DDT or tobacco, and holistic perspectives about daily life were lacking.

Yes, the US has a lot of cars. In fact there are too many cars, which is leading to traffic jams, the creation of too many impervious surfaces for parking lots (yes it can be permeable, but that would depend on the permeability of the soil beneath), intrusion into the spaces of other species (accidents involving deer etc.) and increasingly stringent parking laws because it's becoming more difficult to share the road between motorists (and the government wants to make money out of parking tickets). Sub-production is like being skinny, sufficient production (with reserves in the event of an emergency to ensure abundance) is like having a balanced body and overproduction is like obesity (which is what is promoted by the concept of infinite material growth...an economy requiring constant production with GDP indicators is unsound.).

Planned obsolescence is disgusting, and I think that if an update is needed to make a car perform better, pollute less, or even drive itself, people should be able to insert that update into their current car without having to buy a whole new one.

Interestingly enough, the losses of freedom suffered by the characters remind me of "communist dictatorship in the eyes of the West", but it also reminds me of the censorship and tyranny that exists in corporatism. Mike Gravel (he wasn't perfect, but he had one or two really good ideas, and this is an element of unfairness I have to mention) got excluded from some of the debates in 2008 because he challenged the profits of the military-industrial complex that fuels the revenues of the democratic party and MSNBC/General Electric. Something's very wrong when non-corporate voices are smeared or ridiculed to avoid being heard because Mike Gravel wasn't the only case. Third parties and independents who don't resort to getting conflicting campaign contributions/bribes struggle with ballot access, and it's an uphill struggle for the green party etc.

Plus too many employees think one thing, but are forced to oppose their convictions in order to keep a job.

Well, a lot of people did get conned by counter-reformationist Reaganism for the last 30 years (his name is being put on buildings and he has statues, but I think he will end up in the dustbin of history just like Stalin), and when I had the foresight to warn that Obama was no different than Bush, nobody listened to me until 2010, and even now...-_-

In some ways, Americans do have freedom, but not as much as has been claimed by the video, and the 4th amendment has been considerably eroded. Plus if people cannot speak up about problems that bump heads with corporate interests and profits without facing libel or intimidation, then the US is not a free country. Be careful of conmen, but don't push away people with genuine solutions either.

A lot of people are cynical about the way things are, but they do not trust people with real solutions sometimes because of the way the 1% media slanders anti-establishment people. No wonder the American people sometimes feel despondent!

And realistically, people need to be able to initiate their own projects without having to borrow money from other people. It's another gamble just like anything else in a wall-street based system because the sad part is that not every wonderful innovation or individual initiative is financially cost-effective, and even if it is, people can't buy stuff all the time without waste-inducing advertising (consumerism is promoted by manipulative advertising). If you have ever played the game Monopoly, you will realize that once powerful economic players are established, newcomers cannot promote their ideas as much, even with anti-trust laws that have been reduced to meaninglessness. Innovation shouldn't be limited by a monetary budget, but rather by a natural resource budget. If an innovation pollutes too much, a lighter design should be considered.

I am aware of the contradiction between the conservative sun in Cancer and the idealistic (at best idealistic, at worst hypocritical) ascendant of Sagittarius in America's chart, but I want to try to bring the best of those aspects.

The solutions I have developed result from my work experience (I had a short stint in a small business, I've been working in the non-profit world, and I may spend some time in government) and my scientific, geological and ecological background. Usually I'm the type of person who is skeptical unless I am confident an idea can work and can last. I don't think in -ism, I just combine the mindset I apply in science with a sense of ethics. I have mercury sextile saturn and mercury sextile uranus.