Bardol duration and life path predetermined?

[ptolomy]

1:I am a great believer in the beliefs of the Budhist's about what happens after death.It is said that we can spend upto 49 days in the intermediate state(Bardol) between lives before we reincarnate in a body and psyche that is suitable for our further learning.
2:Also many people who have attempted to commit suicide and have survived but experienced a Near Death Experience have been warned by the Light that it is not their place to finish their lives as it appears our lots are previously measured.
I was thinking earlier today,if we are in the Bardol for a maximum of 49 days doesnt this dramatically limit the possible birth charts that we can have when we are reborn?
And consequently doesnt the time of death being preordained suggest that we are each on very specific life paths that are not easily deviated from life after life?
Your knowledge and thoughts please thank you.....
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/buddhism01.html

 

[Mark]

Number 2 is agreeable enough, but I must disagree with number 1 sharply. One who is unaware of themselves (lower level of spiritual development) can spend years in that "in between" state. Someone who is more aware of themselves will notice the differences much more quickly and thus become aware that they are no longer living their previous life. Those who get stuck due to lack of awareness are not even aware of their current circumstance. They will assume that they are still alive in their previous body because they have a habit of seeing everything subjectively. When your perspective is entirely subjective, objective changes are easy to miss.

As to another point, there is more than one possible time of death. When you are born, you are relatively unimpeded because you haven't learned a role yet. When you begin learning roles, the potential paths for the rest of your life begin to take shape. As you get closer to the forks in the path, the paths become more real. It's like a collision between two cars. When the two are far enough away according to their speed, there is still time to swerve and avoid the collision. There comes a certain time, however, when the cars are close enough together and moving quickly enough to make the collision unavoidable. Only then does the car crash become destined. Until you pass the point of no return, there is still opportunity to change it. Once passed, though, you are locked into the path no matter what you do.

So, some things are easier to change than others and what you can change depends upon your ability to identify needed changes in and around yourself. When you can see the other car soon enough, you can act to create a new path around it. Those who are not paying attention or are, for whatever reason, unable to see the other car, are destined to follow the "default" path, which may or may not be a collision. The person who doesn't see will be destined to follow the default path, while the person who sees can take an active role in their own lives and make changes. This is the way it works throughout all of life.

So, the question becomes: For how much are you willing to be responsible? The more you see, the more responsibilities you have because you have an hand in creating your own future. That is the primary reason, I believe, people avoid seeing the obvious Truth. It's just too much responsibility for a mind that wants an easy life.

 

[ptolomy]

Thank you for your well thought out reply Mark. I think that even though I believe in the general principles of the Tibetan book of the Dead, as it fits well with my Astrological knowledge and I also know Budhists recognise and use Astrology themselves, that I can honestly say that I cannot totally disagree with all of its details as I do not have enough experiential data and can only assume that these Budhists who passed on this information spent a lot more time than me investigating the subject.
I find this Bardol duration of time very confusing.I wonder if its meant to be understood literally as 49 days or whether this is some type of symbolic representation of time.
Mark, I understand where you come from relative to life's paths having some degree of freedom, We've had this discussion in various other threads before now,and I agree that because I have a conscience that it must mean I have a certain degree of freewill,but I think where we might diverge is on how much freewill.
Your statement:"Those who get stuck due to lack of awareness are not even aware of their current circumstance. They will assume that they are still alive in their previous body because they have a habit of seeing everything subjectively. When your perspective is entirely subjective, objective changes are easy to miss." Makes me think of a poltergeist,or a soul that is stuck due to attachment,I have a friend who used to try to rescue these types of beings with a group that would attempt to make the soul aware of where it was so that it could move on.I must admit that from my own experience of poltergeists the same ones can appear to haunt the same place for years which appears contrary to what the 'Tibetan book of the dead' says,maybe I don't know enough?
Don't you find it odd that a person that has died cannot realise this especially as they cannot communicate with any one else?I always thought that poltergeists displayed such malicious behaviour like throwing things around the room because they were frustrated about their condition realising that people couldnt see them.
I assume somewhere in the Tibetan book of the dead that poltergeists are mentioned?

 

[JUPITERASC]

Thank you for your well thought out reply Mark. I think that even though I believe in the general principles of the Tibetan book of the Dead, as it fits well with my Astrological knowledge and I also know Budhists recognise and use Astrology themselves, that I can honestly say that I cannot totally disagree with all of its details as I do not have enough experiential data and can only assume that these Budhists who passed on this information spent a lot more time than me investigating the subject.
I find this Bardol duration of time very confusing.I wonder if its meant to be understood literally as 49 days or whether this is some type of symbolic representation of time.
Mark, I understand where you come from relative to life's paths having some degree of freedom, We've had this discussion in various other threads before now,and I agree that because I have a conscience that it must mean I have a certain degree of freewill,but I think where we might diverge is on how much freewill.
Your statement:"Those who get stuck due to lack of awareness are not even aware of their current circumstance. They will assume that they are still alive in their previous body because they have a habit of seeing everything subjectively. When your perspective is entirely subjective, objective changes are easy to miss." Makes me think of a poltergeist,or a soul that is stuck due to attachment,I have a friend who used to try to rescue these types of beings with a group that would attempt to make the soul aware of where it was so that it could move on.I must admit that from my own experience of poltergeists the same ones can appear to haunt the same place for years which appears contrary to what the 'Tibetan book of the dead' says,maybe I don't know enough?
Don't you find it odd that a person that has died cannot realise this especially as they cannot communicate with any one else?I always thought that poltergeists displayed such malicious behaviour like throwing things around the room because they were frustrated about their condition realising that people couldnt see them.
I assume somewhere in the Tibetan book of the dead that poltergeists are mentioned?

http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Dead-Complete-Translation/dp/0143104942

QUOTE Bardo Thodol, or The Tibetan Book of the Dead, is one of the indisputable masterpieces of spiritual literature. Before this Penguin Classics edition, this ancient Buddhist funerary text was known only through partial translations, some of which had been distorted by the beliefs of Western interpreters. This First Complete Translation provides a clear, reliable rendering of this profound assessment of states of consciousness. To this fine edition, His Holiness The Dalai Lama provides a helpful introductory commentary.

A comprehensive guide to living and dying containing exquisitely written guidance and practices related to transforming our experience in daily life: on the processes of dying, after-death state and how to help those who are dying. As originally intended this is as much a work for the living, as it is for those who wish to think beyond a mere conventional lifetime to a vastly greater and grander cycle.

 

[ptolomy]

TY Jupiterasc,Im starting to think that im mistaken about poltergeist activity being produced by stuck souls,I notice reading about C,Jungs history that he found this to be a dilemma he was never sure about,He appeared to be drawn to the theory that poltergeist activity was projected by the living:
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/3847/the_occult_world_of_cg_jung.html
Anyway back on topic....

 

[JUPITERASC]

TY Jupiterasc,Im starting to think that im mistaken about poltergeist activity being produced by stuck souls,I notice reading about C,Jungs history that he found this to be a dilemma he was never sure about,He appeared to be drawn to the theory that poltergeist activity was projected by the living:
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/3847/the_occult_world_of_cg_jung.html
Anyway back on topic....

found an online Tibetan Book of the Dead ptolomy, it is well worth browsing http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/book1.shtml

 

[Anachiel]

I find this Bardol duration of time very confusing.I wonder if its meant to be understood literally as 49 days or whether this is some type of symbolic representation of time.

I don't think the dead measure time. However, from our perspective of their possible experience, since we do measure time, it would appear that they do not move on for up to 49 of our days. To the dead it may be timeless, longer or shorter. Time is a perspective, and a subjective experience. Even the living, without a clock, may "feel" time without actually knowing the measurment of it.

This measurement we give (49 days) may be useful for us to possible assist the dead in their release or journey. Still, while we pray (or what have you) for the dead for 49 days, they may only experience this as a glimmering or, many years.

Ultimately, the experience of death is personal and cannot be quantified or recorded. This can be seen from the few that have glimsed the "other-side" as generally, for example, Catholics do not see Tibetan god/desses and Tibetans do not see Osiris or Ma'at. The Egyptians probably did not see angels or Mother Mary either. Mormons of course, have their own heaven planet and other religions have their own versions of what to expect.

So, while these books of the dead and guides to the afterlife might give us some idea of some topography on the "other-side", they are not a universal experience and cannot speak to each of us or be completely useful in our personal cosmology or necromology, as it were. Kind of like that brochure of the Swiss Alps is not a universal description of Earth or what we all do down here.

At least, that is how I see it all.

 

[dr. farr]

A really excellent exposition of Buddhist concepts related to astrology can be found in "Tibetan Astrology" by P. Cornu (easily available from Amazon Books) Both a relio-philosophical discussion, and various practical techniques (a mixture of Vedic and classical Chinese methodologies) are presented in this fine work.

 

[ptolomy]

Thank you for your explanation Anachiel,I agree that the experience of time is likely to be very different for those in the intermediate state compared to those who are incarnate despite referring to the same period of time, I am also inclined to believe the experience in the bardo will be related to the cultural socio religious symbolic background of the individual.
Thank you again Jupitrerasc for the Tibetan book of the dead link,ive read quite a bit of the rituals explained in it.
And thank you Doctor Farr for the book link I will check it out.
Ive slept on thinking about the question about the life path being predetermined,it still appears to me that it is odd that the period of time in the intermediate state is relatively short and consequently limits the astrological configurations a person can be born into in their next incarnation,I can only think that it is the incarnate who dont realise that its possible to have more possibilities of a suitable chart for their further learning experience next time round,I suspect it is us who are here who cannot experience time properly due to our mortal measured section of experience.

 

[ptolomy]

Hi Dr Farr,check this link,the whole of the book you mentioned can be downloaded or read immediately online thanks to the generosity of the writer/ publisher:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/32147272/Cornu-Philippe-Tibetan-Astrology
looks like im going to be doing a bit of reading today

 

[Caro]

49 = 7x7.

7 is a number associated with a high level of significance across all religious traditions.

so it could be a spiral in two different dimensions.
ie the raising of the energy through the charkra systems(again all regions have this move towards spirituality) and then perhaps the 7 levels of that charkra system ie 4th dimension chakra colours etc
my thought for the day.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Thank you for your explanation Anachiel,I agree that the experience of time is likely to be very different for those in the intermediate state compared to those who are incarnate despite referring to the same period of time, I am also inclined to believe the experience in the bardo will be related to the cultural socio religious symbolic background of the individual.
Thank you again Jupitrerasc for the Tibetan book of the dead link,ive read quite a bit of the rituals explained in it.
And thank you Doctor Farr for the book link I will check it out.
Ive slept on thinking about the question about the life path being predetermined,it still appears to me that it is odd that the period of time in the intermediate state is relatively short and consequently limits the astrological configurations a person can be born into in their next incarnation,I can only think that it is the incarnate who dont realise that its possible to have more possibilities of a suitable chart for their further learning experience next time round,I suspect it is us who are here who cannot experience time properly due to our mortal measured section of experience.

The Bardo has been compared by some to a dreamlike experience or state, therefore, while exactly 49 days are occurring when using 'our time' on planet Earth for example, in contrast thousands of years and/or alternatively a few moments could have been experienced in the Bardo.

Ever had a dream during which you woke up and went back to sleep any number of times and then woke up 'on planet Earth in familar surroundings' realising that only one night has passed and the entire 'week or few days' has been 'only a dream'

 

[astrologer50]

I'm a BIG fan of Brian Wiess a Hypnotherapist for over thirty years specilaising in past life regression. I've never heard of 49 day theory. In fact my own beliefs are that we may not have/need t reincarnate at all.

especially if we can reach our own *ascension* process like JC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Weiss
http://www.brianweiss.com/

Also favourites Diana Cooper, author of numerous books, medium, psychic
James Van Praagh - Talking to Heaven. A medium's message of life after death. another good read.

If we could all perfect our own ascension then we wouldn't need to keep reincarnating in different bodies..

shamballa, working with Christ consciousness
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162642&postcount=21

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162662&postcount=22

 

[Anachiel]

Ive slept on thinking about the question about the life path being predetermined,it still appears to me that it is odd that the period of time in the intermediate state is relatively short and consequently limits the astrological configurations a person can be born into in their next incarnation,I can only think that it is the incarnate who dont realise that its possible to have more possibilities of a suitable chart for their further learning experience next time round,I suspect it is us who are here who cannot experience time properly due to our mortal measured section of experience.

This reminds me of Paramahansa Yogananda who was told by his astrologer of an upcoming most difficult time period and time of ordeal. His astrologer wanted Yogananda to wear certain remedies to counter the effects of the afflicting planets. Yogananda, however, said that he would not need the remedies, that the person should be able to oversome them themselves and that ultimately humans have free-will...or something to that effect.
As it turns out, Yogananda did get through the obsticles using will but, did confess that it was a most difficult period regardless.
Even the ancient Western astrologers say that the stars do not compell (or something to that effect in Latin).
As like attracts like, as above so below; it may be the dead do not have to concern themselves with time (and thus planetary movements) at all. Perhaps based on "where they are at", everything fits together nicely, mirroring the soul in the realm of time (and thus the heavens) naturally with no hint of limitation, save those natural to the physical world, whatsoever.

 

[JerryRR]

"Within Tibetan tradition,samsara is seen as being composed of six realms,the three lower realms including those of the hell-beings,the hungry ghosts,and the animals,and the three higher realms,those of humans,demigods and gods."

"Tibetan teachers never tire of telling us not only that human birth is a rare occurrence but that,of all the six realms of being,it is the most fortunate,this is because it is only here that spiritual practice can be undertaken."

Precious Human Birth,page 243,Indestructible Truth,by Reginald A Ray.

For more information,I suggest you contact one of schools of Tibetan Budhhism,such as Kagyu Samye Ling.
There may be courses at Tre-ysgaawen Hall,if still open?

"The Tibetan book of Living and Dying." by Sogyal Rinpoche,is the modern classic,on this subject.

J.

 

[JUPITERASC]

This reminds me of Paramahansa Yogananda who was told by his astrologer of an upcoming most difficult time period and time of ordeal. His astrologer wanted Yogananda to wear certain remedies to counter the effects of the afflicting planets. Yogananda, however, said that he would not need the remedies, that the person should be able to oversome them themselves and that ultimately humans have free-will...or something to that effect.
As it turns out, Yogananda did get through the obsticles using will but, did confess that it was a most difficult period regardless.
Even the ancient Western astrologers say that the stars do not compell (or something to that effect in Latin).
As like attracts like, as above so below; it may be the dead do not have to concern themselves with time (and thus planetary movements) at all. Perhaps based on "where they are at", everything fits together nicely, mirroring the soul in the realm of time (and thus the heavens) naturally with no hint of limitation, save those natural to the physical world, whatsoever.

William Lilly 1602–1681 - Lilly's writings frequently sparked political controversy and involved him in legal proceedings on more than one occasion; the exceptional accuracy of his predictions at times caused some of his clients to accuse him of lying or of manipulating events to coincide with his forecasts.

Lilly defended himself by denying complete responsibility for his prophecies, adopting the ancient credo "non cogunt," that is, "the stars incline, they do not compel." or “Astra inclinant, non necessitant” ...The stars incline; they do not determine

"Within Tibetan tradition,samsara is seen as being composed of six realms,the three lower realms including those of the hell-beings,the hungry ghosts,and the animals,and the three higher realms,those of humans,demigods and gods."
"Tibetan teachers never tire of telling us not only that human birth is a rare occurrence but that,of all the six realms of being,it is the most fortunate,this is because it is only here that spiritual practice can be undertaken."
Precious Human Birth,page 243,Indestructible Truth,by Reginald A Ray.
For more information,I suggest you contact one of schools of Tibetan Budhhism,such as Kagyu Samye Ling.
There may be courses at Tre-ysgaawen Hall,if still open?
"The Tibetan book of Living and Dying." by Sogyal Rinpoche,is the modern classic,on this subject.
J.

 

[lazarusx]

found an online Tibetan Book of the Dead ptolomy, it is well worth browsing http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/book1.shtml

Thanks for the link! I've only read extracts from the book, not owning it myself personally i've been unable to explore it further, so i really appreciate this.

 

[dr. farr]

Remember too that we have the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", in our Western tradition; this makes interesting, thought-provoking reading as well.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Remember too that we have the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", in our Western tradition; this makes interesting, thought-provoking reading as well.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead is far from being Western!

The Book of the Dead is the modern name of an ancient Egyptian funerary text, used from around 1550 BC to around 50 BC. The original Egyptian name, transliterated "rw nw prt m hrw" is translated "Book of Coming Forth by Day" / "Book of emerging forth into the Light"and consists of magic spells assisting a dead person's journey through the Duat/ underworld into the afterlife as part of a tradition of funerary texts which includes the earlier Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts. Some spells were from older works 3rd millennium BC, others were composed later (11th to 7th centuries BC) and were commonly written in hieroglyphic/hieratic script on papyrus scrolls often illustrated with vignettes depicting the deceased and their journey into the afterlife, which were placed in the coffin/burial chamber of the deceased. Spells were also inscribed on tomb walls/sarcophagi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

here's a link to a free online Egyptian Book of the Dead translation by E.A. Wallis Budge http://www.africawithin.com/kemit/Egyptian Book of the Dead.pdf

 

[dr. farr]

Well, I meant as part of what has been referred to as the "Western Esoteric Tradition", as compared to the "Eastern Esoteric Tradition" arising (in historical times) from India, Tibet and China.

...actually, of course, the fundamentals are neither "Western" nor "Eastern", but rather, UNIVERSAL!