Whole Sign or Placidus?

[Rebel Uranian]

Recently I heard someone say that they use whole sign and it works better. I almost switched to it, but then I found out it didn't work. The most evidence I found lies here: I have Pluto in my 10th house using Placidus, but the 11th using whole sign. I simply love groups. I feel wrong when I'm not with a lot of people. I want everyone to be free to do what they want to do. I have also always wanted to change the world, most likely professionally. I don't long for power for myself, but I want to see great changes in the world more than almost anything, and figured you would do that professionally. I always felt an intense sense of purpose, and my purpose was to bring change. When people tell me to change and don't seem to have a good logical reason, I don't want to change at all. I have Pluto exactly sextile my natal Uranus, and a Scorpio MC, so it's going to have at least a little influence for me. Here are two descriptions of Pluto in the houses:


Pluto in 10th House

*You have a powerful sense of destiny and may be unusually, even ruthlessly, ambitious. There is a very driven, compulsive quality to the way you pursue your career or other important life goals, which is likely to win you both staunch admirers and vigorous opponents.


Pluto in 11th House

*You may have a deep aversion to groups, associations, clubs, or organizations of any kind. Any such group you become involved in is likely to be either for intense personal growth, change, and healing, or centered around social change and revising society in some manner.

[deleted quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator from: http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/plutoinhouses.html ]

______

Tell me what you think. You really shouldn't use my description of my behaviors as relevant to this, considering you don't know how I act in real life and I'm probably biased and being selective to the problem, but I'd still like to know your opinion on how houses should be calculated.

 

[dr. farr]

The 11th house is the house of friends and the Good Spirit; Pluto in the 11th, is not necessarily an indicator of aversion to friends, although it often points to deep issues relative to friends/friendships, hidden influences operative deep under the surface; same relative to groups and associations-deep, hidden issues/influences might be indicated by Pluto here, as with friends-at least this is my understanding of the matter, from my eclectic studies over the years-but many of my viewpoints are outside of the mainstream (both the Modernist and the Traditionalist mainstreams) so take this view o Pluto in the 11th whole sign house, for whatever it might be worth...

 

[BobZemco]

Recently I heard someone say that they use whole sign and it works better. I almost switched to it, but then I found out it didn't work.

Well, astrology does require a tremendous amount of objectivity. How you think you see yourself may not be what you really see.

I would say that before anyone starts looking at House Systems, they should understand the logic used to create the House System, and be able to create their own Table of Houses.

I mean, really it's nonsensical to discuss House Systems without understanding the underlying theories as to why such House Systems exist.

The most evidence I found lies here: I have Pluto in my 10th house using Placidus, but the 11th using whole sign. I simply love groups.

Pluto is irrelevant, but I have Pluto in the 11th House and I love groups as well, whether I was playing football, or leading the student body, or any number of other groups, or playing out in a band, or being in the military (which is a huge group with lots of sub-groups).

So what does that prove? Nothing.

You really shouldn't use my description of my behaviors as relevant to this, considering you don't know how I act in real life...

The whole purpose of astrology is to know how you act in real life, without knowing you.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

 

[Ruka_5]

I use Placidus. Other house systems move people's charts into houses where they don't really belong so the charts end up making no sense.

 

[Rebel Uranian]

@BobZemco - That's the problem. When I thought I was more introverted (a couple of bad years recently), people kept telling me I was social. When I told them that I just found out that I was the most social person I knew, they told me that they were trying to tell me that and I was like "oh... now I see." I'll post my (slightly wrong, but not for this purpose) natal chart and you can tell me what's important and what's not important, because it says very, very different things depending on which houses, planets, planetary rulers, and decans systems you use for it, and we haven't even gotten to the fact that I'm not exactly sure of my birthtime (although I do know my ascendant is in Aquarius. Even my birth certificate agrees, and I used a time earlier, not later. Plus, I think I'd know if I was hopelessly attracted to Leos or Cancers. The stars can't think my self-confidence is that low.)

 

[JUPITERASC]

@BobZemco - That's the problem. When I thought I was more introverted (a couple of bad years recently), people kept telling me I was social. When I told them that I just found out that I was the most social person I knew, they told me that they were trying to tell me that and I was like "oh... now I see." I'll post my (slightly wrong, but not for this purpose) natal chart and you can tell me what's important and what's not important, because it says very, very different things depending on which houses, planets, planetary rulers, and decans systems you use for it, and we haven't even gotten to the fact that I'm not exactly sure of my birthtime (although I do know my ascendant is in Aquarius. Even my birth certificate agrees, and I used a time earlier, not later. Plus, I think I'd know if I was hopelessly attracted to Leos or Cancers. The stars can't think my self-confidence is that low.)

http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/wholesignhouses.html and here's another discussion http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39021

 

[Inconjunct]

I waver between Placidus and Equal, but I'm veering more towards Placidus as it seems to be the only house system that is time based

 

[astrologer50]

@BobZemco - That's the problem. When I thought I was more introverted (a couple of bad years recently), people kept telling me I was social. When I told them that I just found out that I was the most social person I knew, they told me that they were trying to tell me that and I was like "oh... now I see." I'll post my (slightly wrong, but not for this purpose) natal chart and you can tell me what's important and what's not important, because it says very, very different things depending on which houses, planets, planetary rulers, and decans systems you use for it, and we haven't even gotten to the fact that I'm not exactly sure of my birthtime (although I do know my ascendant is in Aquarius. Even my birth certificate agrees, and I used a time earlier, not later. Plus, I think I'd know if I was hopelessly attracted to Leos or Cancers. The stars can't think my self-confidence is that low.)

I use Equal House system (where each cusp is same as Ascendant) and am a modern astrologer. Lots of newcomers come into Astrology/forums and get a free chart from www.astro.com and the default ‘house system’ used is Placidus and think that’s just the norm and all there is……..BUT that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can change the default on astro.com in Extended Chart selection to Equal house and a few others if you wish to experiment…..

So in equal house your pluto is in 11th house. You STILL need to rectify your TIME and chart here. I have answered this question on your other thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=308642&postcount=4
perhaps you should PM Kannon our member here is very experienced with rectification of charts/times.

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/hone.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false

EQUAL HOUSES
“Another of the three most popular house systems is Equal houses which is just what its name implies. All the houses have the same degree on each cusp, and there are no interceptions. Equal house systems are especially useful for people born in the northernmost and southernmost latitudes, and this system is the most popular one in use outside of the United States.”
http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm

“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm

 

[byjove]

Inconjunct, if you're not tired of doing so ( I can imagine some would be, with the same debate 1,000 times ) can I ask you a little about 'time-based'?

Rebel Uranian. I admit I've been stuck in a similar argument for a long time. I quickly found that there is a portion of astrology based on sheep following sheep, and sometimes the first sheep misunderstood or mistranslated something, and I've found some religious endorsement of house systems like Placidus, and I'm convinced that none of that can be believed.

Just to date, and we must justify these things individually so it's just my perspective...I favour Equal, Whole Sign and Porphry. So far I've found reason and experience behind each one, and so far, no religious pushing or competition. To this end I've come to the above three systems, though I've found some disagreements amongst them so I'm not finished. I'll quickly add that as a person from northern latitudes, Equal and Whole fixe the interpretation mess that Placidus and some others create. The more books I read and the older they get, the less I see any possibility of anything being 'out of place' like interceptions.

I agree that self-perception is relevant and an issue. I struggled for a long time with my hospital-given ASC because Cancer rising gave me the fear of coming across as a 'bag of water' to others, and incapable of leadership. My sister laughed telling me she never saw me that way. Looking back, I took on many leadership positions anyway. So yes, perception issues...

 

[Rebel Uranian]

It's nice to know that someone else agrees that self-perception can be accurate. I mean, how was astrology developed in the first place? Now I agree with whole sign and not Placidus since I've heard a better description of Pluto that makes sense, among other things, but I still think my birthtime is 7 minutes later. Also, originally I was using the preset time (before Astro gave a warning not to do that) and it gave me Cap rising. I started reading it, and then I was worried everyone was going to start shoving responsibilities on me. Also, are you a Leo rising? If that's so, then every questioning of birthtimes I've seen have always been from Leos and Aquarians...

 

[dr. farr]

Just a note about timing:
-on astrodienst, all you have to do is enter the given birth time and their computer does the rest-whether it is standard local time, daylight savings time, whatever.

HOWEVER,
...if one demands exactitude beyond this, then you have to adjust whatever time you enter to actual Sun/Cosmic time, called Local Apparent Time. This can be up to 15 minutes faster or slower than the given civil time (local mean time) and astrodienst does NOT adjust for this.
Where to find the needed adjustment? Google Daily Sun Data, look up the date in question and then adjust the birth time you enter into astrodienst according to that information. This is the ultimate "real" time (Sun/Cosmic time) of birth (or of the event or of whatever else you are erecting a horoscopic chart for)...old time astrologers did not have to make such an adjustment because they used sun dials and water clocks based on sundials, so they always worked with actual Sun/Cosmic time; that changed in the early 1800s with the beginnings of man-made international time conventions.

 

[Rebel Uranian]

The timing really can be 15 minutes off? Most of us (pretty much all of us who are being legit) need less than that to make angles start making sense... I'm Googling but have not yet found anything. That is very useful to know, would probably help tons and tons of people...

 

[dr. farr]

Remember to google daily sun data for the table of Sun/Cosmic time adjustment.
The differences vary with the date, from under a minute to as much as 15/16 minutes, either faster or slower than civil (man-made) clock time. For example, August 27th, the Sun/Cosmic time is 10 minutes slower than clock time: so say someone were born at 1 PM this date: what would be inputed to astrodienst? The time to be entered on astrodienst would be 12:50 PM (because the Sun/Cosmic time for this date is 10 minutes slower than civil time) in order to obtain the real Sun/Cosmic time of the birth (with astrodienst you would not have to be concerned about daylight savings time, or any other local time modification for the place of birth, because all those factors are taken into account and adjusted for by the astrodienst program, but the Sun/Cosmic time is NOT adjusted for, according to management at astrodienst)

 

[astrologer50]

The timing really can be 15 minutes off? Most of us (pretty much all of us who are being legit) need less than that to make angles start making sense... I'm Googling but have not yet found anything. That is very useful to know, would probably help tons and tons of people...

have you tested your Asc with solar arcs and transits? espec mars and mercury over MC and Asc??

 

[Rebel Uranian]

The time I was born at on regular clock time has a 6 degree Aquarius AC, and no, I haven't. I definitely should though...

 

[JUPITERASC]

The time I was born at on regular clock time has a 6 degree Aquarius AC, and no, I haven't. I definitely should though...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.j.harley/eoftime.htm

 

[waybread]

Why not use both systems? -- on a chart you plan to spend any time with. Each will give you different insights.

Bob is right that it helps if you understand the rationale behind each system of house division. You may find one more attractive on that basis. You can, however, purchase tables of houses--I just bought one that gives Placidus and Koch systems.

But different astrologers and "natives" tend to resonate better to one house system than another. Chocolate or vanilla?

I prefer Placidus unless the individual was born at a very high latitude, which skews the houses. Unequal house systems like Placidus allow for the possibility of intercepted signs, where a sign (and its opposite) might not register on any house cusps. I think these have real interpretive value, with any planet in an intercepted sign not functioning as strongly as you would otherwise expect. People with the sun in an intercepted sign, for example, seem to feel very aimless in life.

RebelUranian, I don't think the issue is so much which house your Pluto is in, so much as how Pluto is aspected.

 

[MSO]

If you sit there and read your planets' meanings in houses one at a time, you're just going to confuse yourself.

Your chart is a whole being and to take it apart piece by piece is going to lead to nothing more than you knowing what each planet does in particular fields of your life, rather than what it does on the whole.

I'm in favor of whole signs because that's what makes the most sense philosophically, and it also makes charts clear and easy to read, and a heck of a lot more accurate. I'm not versed in delineating, but whenever I try it with whole sign, I get a lot more positive feedback than when I try it with Placidus.

People respond even better when they don't realize you're using different houses for planets they claim they feel in certain houses. When you don't tell them which House you're referring to, they'll agree 100%, but soon as you mention a House that's different from Placidus, they suddenly feel as though that planet is more towards the Placidus system.

The same thing goes for the outer planets. You can sit there and read the description for a person's Moon and they'll think you're talking about Neptune. It's comical.

 

[waybread]

MSO, if you think back to when you were a beginner, perhaps you recall when you had to look at chart bits and pieces to get the sense of them-- we cannot synthesize poorly-understood data bytes.

I think the whole sign system makes a lot of sense when we don't have an accurate birth time--say within an hour-- but when there is no confusion about the rising sign. It would also be the one to choose for anyone interested in doing Hellenistic/classical Greek astrology. You really need an accurate birth time to use the other house systems.

This wikipedia article has brief explanations of how the major house systems divide up the chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)#Placidus . Note that, depending upon your chart, the different unequal house systems may not give you really different results.

 

[MSO]

Yes waybread, you made an excellent point. I wasn't discouraging the act of learning each piece individually if you're a beginner, merely pointing out what it leads to.

The problem with the other House systems is that they come and go with new ideas. Whenever someone makes a new system, it becomes popular for a short while, a new one is born, people get tired of the old, and then it's forgotten or rarely used. Who knows, in 100 years Placidus could be a thing of the past much like Regiomantanus is today, and people will still be bickering about which system to use, each claiming their favorite is more accurate.

I like Whole Sign because it works. As long as I don't mention the exact House I'm referring to when delineating, no one raises any objections. I also don't mention planets due to the outer ones being useless, but that's another debate entirely.