Abortion - Your Opinion

[Dirius]

I just counted & in this thread I brought up my personal experiences once. I used one example of where I martyred myself to help raise the children of a single man. So if I martyr myself for my entire life for an unwanted pregnancy I'm virtuous but if I sacrifice hours of my life willingly to help a living child in front of me that needs my support I'm a victim, who hangs out with losers? You have no experience to share, just judgement.

You are talking about your personal experiences with men that have used you or taken advantage of you in some form, and according to your multiple posts around the forum, something that has occured many times in your life in which you have been in a position of misery due to men.

That is sad, and I do feel pity you've had to endure such things, but your personal experiences don't really account for much - and they don't entitle you to certain privileges, such as being able to discuss certain topics, or taking certain actions against others. Its wrong for you to assume your status of "victim" gives you any sort of privilege in this discussion.

 

[chay]

Attacking me personally just shows you don't have much of an argument, something you tend to do often in most discussions, and rambling about your personal life experiences, while pitiful, doesn't add much to the conversation. Your poor life choices don't really concern me.

You attack me personally all the time & my life is fine thanks. I pity your limited world view & sad clinging to outdated ideals. I don't fit in to any of your stereotypes no matter how much you try and imply it. I don't think that you sitting here elusively, keeping everything about yourself secret & popping out judgements on others paints you as anything but a misogynistic narcissist & that behaviour and mindset is also a really poor choice.

 

[Dirius]

You attack me personally all the time & my life is fine thanks. I pity your limited world view & sad clinging to outdated ideals. I don't fit in to any of your stereotypes no matter how much you try and imply it. I don't think that you sitting here elusively, keeping everything about yourself secret & popping out judgements on others paints you as anything but a misogynistic narcissist & that behaviour and mindset is also a really poor choice.

I'm not attacking you.

You introduced your personal life into the discussion, and made it a topic of this conversation.

All I'm doing is talking about the subject you've introduced into the conversation.

Sure my opinion of this subject isn't necessarily positive, but I wasn't the one to bring it up.

If you feel you are being attacked personally, its only because you made your personal life the center of your argument.

 

[passiflora]

Dirius - stop while you’re behind. She has evidence and you have theory.

 

[passiflora]

Also, your advice on defending oneself from losers would be interesting.

 

[Dirius]

Dirius - stop while you’re behind. She has evidence and you have theory.

Evidence of what? Her supposed life experiences?

 

[Dirius]

Also, your advice on defending oneself from losers would be interesting.

Of course it would, but I don't want any of you gals to feel offended - and I'm not trying to stir up trouble.

But if someone doesn't like their personal life being discussed, then you shouldn't use it a conversational topic.

 

[chay]

Of course it would, but I don't want any of you gals to feel offended - and I'm not trying to stir up trouble.

But if someone doesn't like their personal life being discussed, then you shouldn't use it a conversational topic.

You can discuss it, but if you try & manipulate what I say into making me beneath you or a victim, I'll be defending my position. You're trying to paint me & my experiences as of lower value than your "opinion" by inferring I have had bad experiences with males because I made bad choices. I need to correct you on that, because not once ever has it been my fault that a man behaves badly. Including now.

 

[passiflora]

Geez, Dirius. You think only libertarian men have life experiences worthy of adult sovereignty?

 

[Dirius]

You can discuss it, but if you try & manipulate what I say into making me beneath you or a victim, I'll be defending my position. You're trying to paint me & my experiences as of lower value than your "opinion" by inferring I have had bad experiences with males because I made bad choices. I need to correct you on that, because not once ever has it been my fault that a man behaves badly. Including now.

No, what I'm inferring is that your sad story and victimisation, if at all real, doesn't really mean anything to the discussion. You are trying to use your own life experiences as justification for your position, because you lack any sort of argument.

Its a strawman to deflect the issue at hand. You are essentially saying that motherhood is hard, and because of that, women shoud be entitled to kill another human being. The truth is that the hardships of life do not justify murdering another person. And bringing your personal experiences on motherhood, don't make this strawman any stronger, thus why they don't have any value.+

What I did point out though, was that there is a common pattern in all of your stories, that every man you mention usually misstreats or neglects you - and that such story does seem sad, and makes me feel pity about you. But this isn't an attack, its just an honest opinion on the subject you introduced.

 

[Dirius]

To put it more simple, you tried to use your personal life experiences with men to shut down the conversation, because you didn't know how to defend your position on abortion, and you thought you could claim some morale high-ground to end the discussion by bringing up your experiences as a mother and your dealings with men.

It didn't work... and it just made me feel terribly sorry for you, and pity you.

 

[Dirius]

Geez, Dirius. You think only libertarian men have life experiences worthy of adult sovereignty?

Not at all - but you seem to believe your personal experiences somehow justify your actions.

Is it ok for someone else to harm you, because they had bad experiences in life?

 

[chay]

To put it more simple, you tried to use your personal life experiences with men to shut down the conversation, because you didn't know how to defend your position on abortion, and you thought you could claim some morale high-ground to end the discussion by bringing up your experiences as a mother and your dealings with men.

It didn't work... and it just made me feel terribly sorry for you, and pity you.

I made one comment among many about my personal experience & you jumped on that out of all of them to try and put me down. The other post I've made about men on this forum was to show people how Saturn's position in my chart manifested when I was young. How about you reread my post about abortion in India? Moral or not...I have a uterus- you don't. I could grow or not grow an embryo & you can't. You talk about a blob of ectoplasm's rights and ignore a woman's rights. How is you saying whether a woman should have an abortion or not, not a moral high ground? You try & criticise me by implying I make bad choices and get victimised by men? Yet here you are sitting here moralising about women's bodies as if your opinion should take precedence over a woman's health and life. Anyway I'm bored - here's your opportunity for some scathing & intellectually superior conclusion on why your unqualified opinion is superior. Perhaps you could adopt an orphan and have a vasectomy to validate it.

 

[Dirius]

I made one comment among many about my personal experience & you jumped on that out of all of them to try and put me down. The other post I've made about men on this forum was to show people how Saturn's position in my chart manifested when I was young. How about you reread my post about abortion in India? Moral or not...I have a uterus- you don't. I could grow or not grow an embryo & you can't. You talk about a blob of ectoplasm's rights and ignore a woman's rights. How is you saying whether a woman should have an abortion or not, not a moral high ground? You try & criticise me by implying I make bad choices and get victimised by men? Yet here you are sitting here moralising about women's bodies as if your opinion should take precedence over a woman's health and life. Anyway I'm bored - here's your opportunity for some scathing & intellectually superior conclusion on why your unqualified opinion is superior. Perhaps you could adopt an orphan and have a vasectomy to validate it.

Again, behind all of that fake outrage, you still haven't been able to provide an argument on why abortion should be legal, only your own personal experiences. You are just saying I shouldn't be talking about the subject, because you don't feel I have a right to talk about the issue.

But you don't have the right to decide what I can comment or talk about.

Just like you don't have the right to decide whether someone's life should end or not.

 

[david starling]

By Orthodox Catholics do you mean Orthodox Christians like the ones in Eastern Europe, Greece and the Chrisitans in the middle east or do you mean Catholics like the ones in the rest of the Western world? Abortion is legal in all Eastern European countries except Poland (which is a catholic country). And abortion has been legal for many many years. I know people that were born years before WW2 even started that got abortions legally. You keep mentioning Christianity I don't know if you have some spite against it or you are just that uneducated about other religions or cultures but most religions in the world are against abortion in some form. Many countries just allow it if the pregnancy is a great risk for the health/life of the mother.

I'm only talking about the Catholic Church in the U.S., Mexico, and Central and South America.

In the U.S., Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians are also totally anti-abortion.

 

[waybread]

Dirius, I have to ask: what's it to you if a woman has an abortion? How does it harm you in any way? You mentioned being a lapsed Catholic, so you don't seem to have a strong religious argument.

You seem ignorant of some real basics of female reproduction and birth control.

As an extreme right-winger, you have no interest in a social safety net for poor pregnant women, new moms, and poor children. You cannot imagine that some women who want an abortion are legally married.

You cannot imagine a reason why a woman might seek an abortion beyond mere "convenience." I don't think you had even heard of ectopic pregnancy before I brought it up.

Because pregnancies due to rape and incest are highly sensitive topics, you imagine you can deny their reality merely by labeling them "emotional." Forcing an under-aged girl who was gang-raped to bear a child is barbaric.

If you wish to make the argument that abortion is wrong because "all life is sacred," then you must oppose capital punishment, war, in vitro fertilization methods, driving drunk or without seatbelts, and other high-risk behaviors. If you don't do this, then you have no moral justification for condemning women's autonomy over their bodies.

Just hypocrisy.

Dirius,

All very sad examples of cruel and unwanted things that happen to some people in life, but it still doesn't give you the right to end another human being's life. The person inside the woman's womb isn't responsible that you were raped or beaten.

You are making an argument based on pity, implying that because someone's situation is dire, then it entitles them to commit murder. It doesn't. Just like theft isn't justified due to poverty, murder of an innocent isn't justified due to rape.

 

[waybread]

Dirius, this is simply ridiculous.

You made up these data.

If you have legitimate social science sources for your claims, please cite them.

I'm not saying this is justified, nor that it is how the world should work. But studies do show that males may act more violent in a way to assert authority or exert control over others, particularly children and women living in the household. In a traditional environment, when the parent is the breadwinner (not neccesarily the sole one) of the household, he is more likely to feel respected or fulfillled, and studies show violence is usually much less common.

One of the reasons domestic violence has been escalating in the west is due to a degradation of the standards of living in the population, which is caused by our larger dependancy on government assistance and interference in our lives.

However, the most common source of domestic violence comes from genetically unrelated males. Most children suffer at the hands of step-parents, usually the mother's sexual partner. It is much less common for the genetic parent to get violent with his genetic offspring. So its not "fathers" who are the ones causing most of these violent acts, but rather just the men the mother's are sleeping with.

 

[chay]

Again, behind all of that fake outrage, you still haven't been able to provide an argument on why abortion should be legal, only your own personal experiences. You are just saying I shouldn't be talking about the subject, because you don't feel I have a right to talk about the issue.

But you don't have the right to decide what I can comment or talk about.

Just like you don't have the right to decide whether someone's life should end or not.

I provided plenty of reasons why abortion should be legal....and guess what? It is legal in most places, my country included. So legally I do have the right to decide if I want to abort an embryo. Funny how you're all for autonomy except for women.

 

[waybread]

I don't justify them, Dirius. So whom exactly do you mean?

You are familiar with the "missing girls" problem in India and China, where parents obtain amniocentesis at a gestation time when the sex of the fetus can be determined, and abort female fetuses. This practice has been outlawed, but continues. The result has been an imbalence of male over female births. A big problem when the boys grow up and brides get trafficked for them.

Here again, you demonstrate your ignorance of pregnancy and fetal development. The less invasive method for determining fetal sex is by ultrasound, usually around 18 weeks into a pregnancy. Amniocentesis is possible a few weeks earlier, but with some risk to the fetus. There are some earlier methods, usually used to detect fetal abnormalities. The main methods are essentially available only after the early term of a pregnancy.

Sex selection is possible with in vitro fertilization. But you know about those frozen embryos that are discarded when no longer needed. Is that murder to you?

Its a bit ironic to see all of these progressive feminists who post on this thread, defend sex-selective abortions and the right for some ethnic groups to discard female fetuses.

 

[passiflora]

Not at all - but you seem to believe your personal experiences somehow justify your actions.

Is it ok for someone else to harm you, because they had bad experiences in life?

Whereas you seem to believe your actual lack of experiences and willful ignorance makes you more qualified to direct others’ actions?

That is grade A chutzpah, boy!