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Tiarus
08-31-2015, 11:43 AM
So, we have natural (universal) significators of parents - Sun by day and Saturn by night for father, and Venus by day and Moon by night for mother. Beyond that, we should consider Lot of father and Lot of mother etc.

But, what happens if one of the planets is lord of the ascending sign as if the lord of the ascendant is Sun in day chart? Should I automatically reconsider Saturn as ruler of father because Sun is representing the native?

JUPITERASC
08-31-2015, 11:57 AM
So, we have natural (universal) significators of parents - Sun by day and Saturn by night for father, and Venus by day and Moon by night for mother. Beyond that, we should consider Lot of father and Lot of mother etc.

But, what happens
if one of the planets is lord of the ascending sign
as if the lord of the ascendant is Sun in day chart?
Should I automatically reconsider Saturn as ruler of father because Sun is representing the native?

If lord of the ascendant is Sun in a day chart
then presumably the ascending sign is Leo
however
more detail would assist with responding to this question :smile:
and so
if possible, viewing the chart with the Leo ascendant would provide more clarification

to protect your privacy it is possible to anonymise the chart
but of course do not post your chart if you prefer not to

Tiarus
08-31-2015, 12:17 PM
I asked purely theoretically although my rising sign is Leo :)
I presume, if Sun is already taken for being lord of the ascendant in day chart, it could not represent father as well. Or it can?

Similarly, if rising sign in woman's nativity (in a day chart) is Taurus so Venus being lady of the ascendant, should we determine Moon as ruler of the mother because Venus is already taken?

tsmall
09-03-2015, 10:41 PM
I asked purely theoretically although my rising sign is Leo :)
I presume, if Sun is already taken for being lord of the ascendant in day chart, it could not represent father as well. Or it can?

Similarly, if rising sign in woman's nativity (in a day chart) is Taurus so Venus being lady of the ascendant, should we determine Moon as ruler of the mother because Venus is already taken?

Why wouldn't the Sun still be a general significator for the father in a day chart even if it is ruler of the ASC? It almost sounds like you are attempting to follow horary rules for assigning significators in natal astrology?

The thing to really understand is that general significators in natal can tell us a little something about how matters related to those areas of life will go, but it is more important to look at house rulers/almutens for the specific topics. Jupiter, for example, is the general significtor of wealth, but to delineate a native's wealth we want to look at the ruler of the 2nd house, how it is positioned, what it's condition is, if any planets help or hinder it, etc. For predictive work it is often necessary to look at the almuten, or planet with the most dignity over a certain place, as well to see if it is in a better position to have control over that house. I once worked on a day chart for a female native whose mother was actually represented by Jupiter.

Tiarus
09-04-2015, 10:43 AM
Why wouldn't the Sun still be a general significator for the father in a day chart even if it is ruler of the ASC? It almost sounds like you are attempting to follow horary rules for assigning significators in natal astrology?
Well, for example, I want to examine how native and his parents get along. If Lord of the Ascendant is Sun, then father couldn't be represented by the same planet.

In hellenistic astrology, Lord of the 4th house represented BOTH parents. 10th house didn't bear any parental significations. So, we need to examine natural rulers i.e. Sun/Venus in day charts or Saturn/Moon in night charts and also lots of parents and their dispositors. I couldn't find any rule about situations where one and same planet represents two different close related persons.

p.s. my english is not quite good, I hope that won't be a big problem :o

urano
09-04-2015, 02:17 PM
I didnít know that hellenistic astrology doesnít consider that the 4th house as connected to the father and the 10th to the mother.

Therefore, in a day chart, if Lord 1 is the Sun, which is as well the father significator, maybe could we deduce that the native is very close to his father or that his father will have an important role in his destiny?
That is just a suggestion (with a question mark)...

Tiarus
09-04-2015, 05:09 PM
This is a passage from Rhetorius (Astrological Compendium, trans. James Holden, ch. 97, pg. 145-146)

Examine the things relating to the father from the Sun and Saturn and the Lot of the Father and from the sign opposite the Lot of Father, and the things of the mother from Moon and Venus and the Lot of Mother, and out of sect by day from the Sun and Venus, but by night from Saturn and the Moon and the Lots. Examine also their rulers and the triplicita rulers and the rulers od the terms, for from these factors the things relating to the parents will be known. And from the Lights and from Saturn and Venus and their rulers, examine those things relating to the parents e.g. illnesses and dangers and low birth and trade and property and similar things.

Rhetorius didn't mention Lord of 4th or 10th house. Other hellenistic sources says the same, more or less.

kendra
09-04-2015, 07:31 PM
For me:
- the father would be represented by 10th house (with saturn and sun)
- the mother by 4th house (moon).

tsmall
09-05-2015, 01:37 AM
If Lord of the Ascendant is Sun, then father couldn't be represented by the same planet.

This is a logical fallicy, because the native is not represented solely by the Lord of the ASC, and that goes for Hellenistic as well as all later traditional sources. Remember, the chart IS the native, and everything that will happen to him/her. There is no one planet that you can point to and say "this is you." There is the hilaj, later conflated to become the al-mubtazz which is where the concepts of the LoG and almuten of the figure, basically the "chart ruler" come from. And if you want a Hellenistic analogy then it really would be useful for you to learn the nautical metaphor.

In hellenistic astrology, Lord of the 4th house represented BOTH parents. 10th house didn't bear any parental significations. So, we need to examine natural rulers i.e. Sun/Venus in day charts or Saturn/Moon in night charts and also lots of parents and their dispositors. I couldn't find any rule about situations where one and same planet represents two different close related persons.

Because there are none. And for the record you didn't specify that you were only looking for Hellenistic source material. Traditional astrology encompasses well over 2000 years of knowledge.

It sounds again like you are trying to assign significators so that you can look at a chart and say something like "oh, the ASC ruler opposes the Sun so the native won't get along with his father." Except it doesn't work like that.

Well, for example, I want to examine how native and his parents get along.

Another technique you aren't going to find in any Hellenistic source, mainly because no one cared how the native and his father got along. What they cared about was if the native would be reared (see Ptolemy, and others), if there would be an inheritance, and how long the parent would live. From Dorotheus all the way until Ezra and Bonatti, the challenge of delineating parents pulled from many factors in the chart (some of which you have touched upon) but anticipated that the student would be able to synthesize large amounts of information in order to do so. Bodyguarding, for example, and unerstanding of the totality of planetary condition, the ability to accurately cast lots, sect considerations, understanding of primary directions, which leads to a whole other confusion--say for example we wanted to know when the father would die? If we are looking at the Sun and Saturn as well as the dispositors (and I mean all of them, especially the bound ruler) of the Lot of the Father (or the Lot of Parents), then which planet are we supposed to direct?

Bonatti gives clearer indication as to how to assimilate all this information by doing exactly what I described. Find the almuten of the father by considering which planet has the most essential dignity in the degree(s) of the Sun, Saturn (depending on the sect of the chart), the cusp of the 4th house and the Lot of the father. And you want that planet to actually be able to "see" into the 4th house by Ptolemaic aspect. This then becomes the planet you operate through in order to make predicitions (using the proper techniques) about the father.

Bonatti further clearly says to do the same for the mother using the 10th house as our topical consideration as well as Venus and the Moon and the Lot of the mother.

Tiarus
09-05-2015, 08:36 AM
Thank you very much tsmall :)

And for the record you didn't specify that you were only looking for Hellenistic source material. Traditional astrology encompasses well over 2000 years of knowledge.
No, I didn't specify. I just mentioned hellenistic astrology because of significators. In medieval delineations concerning parents, there are more significators to investigate: natural significators and Lots and their lords, also Lords of the 4th and 10th or in some texts Lord of the first triplicity of the lords of the 4th and 10th. And, as you already said, almuten of several positons concerning fahter and mother respectively.

It sounds again like you are trying to assign significators so that you can look at a chart and say something like "oh, the ASC ruler opposes the Sun so the native won't get along with his father." Yes, that's the main reason, although not just for delineating friendship or hatred among native and his father but for finding if there are some dangers or misfortunes threatening :) I know there are some general rules for delineating such things both in hellenistic and medieval texts, but I hoped I could find something more specific. I followed some rules given by renaissance authors like Lilly, that was my starting point. Then I tried to find some anwers in medieval astrology books and at last gone back to the hellenistic texts. And didn't find anything that can clarify my confusion.

I need to ask, purely hypothetically, if it happens that almuten of the father and Lord of the 1st are the same planet, how can I resolve this problem? Should I then use the exaltation lord of the 1st or what?