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krishnakimbahune
02-25-2008, 05:41 AM
Dear Astrofriends,
I have aquarius ascending with moon; Saturn is in Cancer in the sixth, an another example of debilitated mutual reception. I request you all to comment upon this planetary placement.

Love,
Krishna.

flea
02-25-2008, 06:31 AM
Thankyou SR good idea...

krishnakimbahune
02-25-2008, 08:14 AM
Dear Flea,
Thanks for your brilliant insight into mutual reception in reply. But I am curious as to what extent the mutual reception I mentioned affect health. Kindly enlighten.

Love,
Krishna.

flea
02-25-2008, 11:15 PM
I am not sure, but if the moon rules the sixth then the emotional life and feeligns is involved. Saturn supresses, which could be that difficult emotions could get locked into the body instead of being processes. I reckon a weekly massage is a very good idea with this placement as it helps to release all those things we carry around in our body that we dont need. Psychosomatic issues may be there too.

As with all things health, persistent routines and balance in play work and nuture, spirit too. So good sleep, good exercise plan, healthy food with lots of veggies. And remember the vey important part that play and fun has in our health. Each positive happy emotion lifts the soul and the body, we feel lighter and not so heavy and leaden. Saturn can give great structure to a healthy life plan.

I may be well off track but that is what comes to mind. Have you a specific query about the state of your 6th? I have sun merc and nept all in 6th so it is an important area of my life.... the purification process.

Love Light Flea

krishnakimbahune
02-26-2008, 02:55 AM
Dear Flea,
Thanks for your reply and your opinion about the moon-saturn aspect and the emotional plane of mind. Unlike your case, the dominant cusp in my horoscope is the ninth. In the ninth house I have Venus, Mars, Uranus and the dragons head in Libra. Venus and Uranus are in conjunction. My horoscope: Aquarius rising with Moon, Dragons tail in Aries, Jupiter, retrograde, in Taurus, Saturn in Cancer, Sun, Mercury and Pluto in Virgo, Venus,Mars,Uranus and Dragons head in Libra, Neptune in Scorpio. I think that the ninth house is dominent. Acordingly, I have a lot of travel in my life. I request you to comment on my horoscope.
Curious to know whether you have Mercury and Neptune in conjunction. As far as my observation, understanding and study go Mercury - Neptune conjunction is the first in the list of aspects that give higher kind of intuition. Please opine and let me know.
Love,
Krishna.

Catatonia
02-26-2008, 03:07 AM
I wouldn't say your reception is particularly debilitated. My idea of debilitated mutual reception would be something like Moon in Scorpio with Mars in Cancer. Now THAT sounds like some kind of lesson. Your mutual reception is of a different nature. The planets do mutually receive one another, which naturally supports them both. However, your Moon in Aquarius is actually inconjunct (quincunx) Saturn in Cancer. The issue here lies in the fact that while the planets mutually support one another by way of mutual reception, they are still quite foreign to one another and maintain aversion by way of the inconjunct.

krishnakimbahune
02-26-2008, 03:49 AM
Dear Catatonia,
Thanks for your kind reply. In the light of the traditional view that Saturn in the sixth house from the Moon is a fine placement, how would you interprete the mututual reception in my case? I do agree with Flea's opinion that the placement we have been discussing affects the emotional zone of the mind. What do you think in this connection? Please reply.
Love,
Krishna.

gaer
02-26-2008, 04:06 AM
I've never heard of a "debilitated mutual reception". As far as I know, a mutual reception is what it is regardless of aspect. :confused:

In addition, the Moon might be 29 Aquarius to Saturn at 0 Cancer, and that would also be trine.

Or 0 Aquarius to Saturn at 29 Cancer, an opposition. :)

krishnakimbahune
02-26-2008, 04:16 AM
Dear Gaer,
Thanks. Moon is on the 6th degree of Aquarius and Saturn, on the 20th of Cancer.
Love,
Krishna.

flea
02-26-2008, 04:17 AM
I admit it I made it up..... due to my jupiter in gemini H1 and mercury in sag H6. It just seemed to be a strange sort of linkage with both planets not in a very good sign, and this mutual reception seemed to have a distinct pattern about it. My Dad has another version of it, so it piqued my interest.

Dutifully Flea

flea
02-26-2008, 04:18 AM
Krishna,

you can check my chart in the byline, but merc is 3 sag and neptune 20 scorpio, so no conjunction.

Love Light Flea

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-26-2008, 04:20 AM
I admit it I made it up..... due to my jupiter in gemini H1 and mercury in sag H6. It just seemed to be a strange sort of linkage with both planets not in a very good sign, and this mutual reception seemed to have a distinct pattern about it.

But this goes against the rules of mutual reception. It really doesn't matter what Sign a planet it is, as long as it has a partner BAM; dignified.

flea
02-26-2008, 04:21 AM
what do you mean by BAM? Kai??

gaer
02-26-2008, 04:29 AM
I admit it I made it up..... due to my jupiter in gemini H1 and mercury in sag H6. It just seemed to be a strange sort of linkage with both planets not in a very good sign, and this mutual reception seemed to have a distinct pattern about it. My Dad has another version of it, so it piqued my interest.

Dutifully Flea
Ah, that's another thing entirely. It does seem to happen that certain aspects are "inherited". :)

Gaer

Catatonia
02-26-2008, 05:55 PM
Having planets in mutual reception doesn't make them dignified. Mars in Cancer is in fall and Moon in Scorpio is in fall too. You can't change their placements natally. However, having debilitated planets in your chart aids to lift some of the debility and provides cosmic support for carrying out the functions of the Moon and Mars more supportively.

Dear Catatonia,
Thanks for your kind reply. In the light of the traditional view that Saturn in the sixth house from the Moon is a fine placement, how would you interprete the mututual reception in my case? I do agree with Flea's opinion that the placement we have been discussing affects the emotional zone of the mind. What do you think in this connection? Please reply.
Love,
Krishna.

Well, they do say that 6th and 8th house relationships between planets are favorable. I will attest to that. However, I'd also say that the Moon is still in a great position by being angular and in the 1st house. The 6th house is the joy of Mars; the 12th is the joy of Saturn. Simply because Mars and Saturn are both malefics doesn't make them clear for interchanging joys. I'd say both the Moon and Saturn are in good places for one another. This doesn't take away from the negativity of either the Moon or Saturn. The bad qualities still remain for each placement (both negative and positive, of course).

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-26-2008, 06:12 PM
Having planets in mutual reception doesn't make them dignified.

Yes it does.

Mutual reception by dignity is a +5 to both planets. Oddly, it's a form of essential dignity.

Catatonia
02-26-2008, 09:19 PM
The placements are not dignified. They are mutually received. That provides for cosmic support but does not indicate dignity for either placement. The placement remains the placement.

Simply because Venus in Scorpio and Mars in Libra are in mutual reception doesn't mean they are essentially dignified. Venus in Libra and Mars in Aries are.

In astrology, mutual reception is a concept where two planets are placed in each other's signs of rulership. If the condition of each planet in mutual reception is strong, they will strengthen and provide assistance to one another. Some modern astrologers believe they will also take on some of each other's attributes.

Whenever planets are in mutual reception, they provide the native with additional forces to overcome difficulties that present themselves during transits affecting their signs and houses. Ancient astrologers called this condition "exchange of signs," and it was but one example of various forms of astrological reception, that is, assistance provided by one planet for another one which falls in signs where the first planet has dignity.

gaer
02-26-2008, 11:23 PM
The placements are not dignified. They are mutually received. That provides for cosmic support but does not indicate dignity for either placement. The placement remains the placement.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

In own sign or in mutual reception with another planet by sign +5

Simply because Venus in Scorpio and Mars in Libra are in mutual reception doesn't mean they are essentially dignified.

Look under essential dignities. :)

Now, you can choose to use another system. No one is forcing you to use Lilly's system. But you are on shaky ground if you categorically deny that there is essential dignity here.
Mars in Cancer is in fall and Moon in Scorpio is in fall too.

In exaltation, or mutual reception by exaltation +4. Same link, same page. Also listed under essential dignity.

Gaer

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-27-2008, 12:02 AM
Thank you, Gaer for sparing me the effort to explain it. I'd like to add though.

In exaltation, or mutual reception by exaltation +4. Same link, same page. Also listed under essential dignity.

This is true, planets also get the +3 if they are mutually recevied by Triplicity, +2 if by Face, and +1 if by Term.

flea
02-27-2008, 12:05 AM
Gaer,

In laymans' terms would that mean that although there are distinct issues with whatever the debilitated planet's sign and house etc, the mutual reception provides the creativity and support to follow through and resolve issues through insight and perspective or whatever. maybe to actually see a positive creation. So that Krishna has opportunities in creating struction for home life and depth of feeling to enhance and support this, and possibly I have an idea how the high energy thought processes and obsessive reading and collecting information can be channeled in a positive direction.

Just a Thought

Love Light Flea

Catatonia
02-27-2008, 02:09 AM
Mutual reception by debility works for exaltation too. The planets are STILL not dignified if they are in their detriment or the like. Either way you go, it won't make them dignified.

Catatonia

gaer
02-27-2008, 02:47 AM
Mutual reception by debility works for exaltation too. The planets are STILL not dignified if they are in their detriment or the like. Either way you go, it can't and won't make them dignified. Period.

Catatonia
Two people have disagreed with you, and two people have given sources.

May I ask what your source is?

And why you are so ready to categorically deny that Lilly, quite obviously one of the greatest astrologers who has ever lived, didn't know what he was talking about?

Gaer

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-27-2008, 02:57 AM
Mutual reception by debility works for exaltation too. The planets are STILL not dignified if they are in their detriment or the like. Either way you go, it can't and won't make them dignified. Period.

I'm going to wager that if it's in the table of essential dignities and specifically states it dignifies them, it dignifies them.

Catatonia
02-27-2008, 03:03 AM
Two people have disagreed with you, and two people have given sources.

May I ask what your source is?

Gaer

Mutual reception means mutually supporting one another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_reception

http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040130.html

Being received means that a planet is attended to. It is also less likely to be damaged by a malefic planet when it is received by it. This is the reason why many traditional authors have warned that aspects may be unable to produce a positive result if there is no form of reception between the planets.


Mutual reception shows willingness, potential and inclination from both parties.


Reception can aid the easy fulfilment of aspectual contact but the overall condition of the planets involved will show whether there is a realistic likelihood of benefit.

Nothing about dignity.

Catatonia

Catatonia
02-27-2008, 03:09 AM
Two people have disagreed with you, and two people have given sources.

May I ask what your source is?

And why you are so ready to categorically deny that Lilly, quite obviously one of the greatest astrologers who has ever lived, didn't know what he was talking about?

Gaer

Astrology existed before Lilly, right? Try Hellenistic Astrology; Babylonian Astrology. Lilly is not the only great astrologer because astrology originated way before him and his time. For example, take a look at Vitus (sp?) Valens.

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-27-2008, 04:56 AM
Try Hellenistic Astrology; Babylonian Astrology.

Pretty sure Lilly was a Hellenistic astrologer...

Lilly is not the only great astrologer because astrology originated way before him and his time

It's because of Christian Astrology that we know as much about astrology as we do. Since Lilly basically copied all of the rules and stuff from earlier astrologers like Al Biruni and Ptolemy. Would we have had all of this knowledge without him? Yeah, probably, but he definately made it easier for us.

flea
02-27-2008, 04:58 AM
I have never been good with categorical rules, blame sun sq saturn, I tend to be defiant in the face of of the word no. Yet they also provide a structure to understand the patterns. I can also see that different rules can work just as effectively like the trad rulers and mod rulers.

Yet with all the rules in the world, we still have to find meaning with and through them and that is essentially what is most fascinating. Each to there own in peace and goodwill, and hopefully we can meet on the same page once in a blue moon.

Love Light Flea

gaer
02-27-2008, 08:14 PM
Flea,

This was the start of this thread:

Dear Astrofriends,
I have aquarius ascending with moon; Saturn is in Cancer in the sixth, an another example of debilitated mutual reception. I request you all to comment upon this planetary placement.

From that I assumed that the Moon is in Aquarius, very near the AC, but Saturn in Cancer, in the 6th, is not close enough to be in opposition.

Then I saw this:

Dear Gaer,
Thanks. Moon is on the 6th degree of Aquarius and Saturn, on the 20th of Cancer.
Love,
Krishna.
So that confirms it. The actual aspect would be 164, and 163.63636 is 5/11. That's such a minor aspect, it is rarely used it. I certainly don't use it.

Now, this is a fairly standard definition:

Mutual Reception: When two planets are in each other's sign or exaltation.

As far as I know, Lilly assigned great strength to such planets, regardless of aspect or the fact that each planet might be opposite from dignity or exaltation. However, this gives a pretty good overview of other things that seem to be considered today. Is this just modern? Is it right or wrong? I won't make any judgements. Read for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_reception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_reception)


Note that below BOTH the statements below are from the same article, yet the contradict each other:

1) If an individual has the Sun posited in Aquarius and Saturn located in Leo, both the Sun and Saturn are in mutual reception, since the Sun's own house is in Leo, where Saturn is located, and Saturn governs the sign of Aquarius, where the Sun is positioned. However, in this example, since the signs of Leo and Aquarius are opposed to one another in aspect, the mutual reception may be of little value. Located opposite their own houses, in the signs of their detriment, both planets have little dignity, and without other very strong placement factors to compensate for this, the mutuality is probably not a factor in the individual's life.

But at the end of the article:

2) Actually, a mutual reception with Sun in Aquarius and Saturn in Leo is quite strong. Why? Because remember, each planet in a mutual reception draws support from the other sign.

So, you can immediately see that there are differences of opinion. Some say that if two planets are in each other's signs, there is a mutual reception, period, and that's it.

Others take into consideration whether or not the planets aspect each other, or they take into consideration the nature of the aspect.

If you are interested, I'll tell you what I use, in natal charts. I'm another person who says that rules are made to be broken, but I do think it is imporant to know where rules came from, who made them. :)

Gaer

Catatonia
02-27-2008, 10:26 PM
I'd say that the planets do mutually receive one another, regardless. Meaning, Sun in Aquarius and Saturn in Leo are still in mutual reception either way you slice it. However, in my practice I've always utilized aspects--both within orb and sign-based ones. I kind of look at it similarly to dispositors. Does the dispositor of the planet in any way, positively or negatively, aspect the disposed planet?

So, in this case I'd say that aspects count to see the relationship between the planets mutually receiving one another. In the case of a negative aspect, perhaps we can say that this relationship can be compared to two sisters who don't have a good relationship with one another, living two states apart. They need to house sit for one another due to particular circumstances, so, they politely fly to one another's state but skip "the 'how ya doin's" and "nice to see you's".

gaer
02-27-2008, 10:51 PM
Let's use the example of Saturn in Cancer and Moon in Capricorn, same degree so an exact opposition.

I would say this makes both planets powerful because they are in mutual reception and very powerfully aspected.

But the first thing I would check next would be aspects to them. Any planet that is sextile to one will be trine the other.

The most dramatic example would be a grand trine, with either Saturn or the Moon part of the grand trine, with the other planet forming an opposition. There you have a kite, which I really thinks gives the opposition many favorable outlets…

But if the same Saturn/Moon opposition forms a T-square or cross, I would see the opposition as potentally even MORE destructive, since it is so strong. I am talking about only natal charts.

Gaer

flea
02-29-2008, 01:16 PM
Thankyou Gaer for the explanation. I am much clearer, on what is quite a complicated situation. It was very clear and easy to follow. Nice to know we can accomodate differences of opinion.

I mentioned I have the situation with Jup and Merc. Jupiter is conjunct my ascendant, and bQ both venus and neptune, although has wide square to uranus/pluto, about 7+ deg so I dont consider it much.

Merc is conj south node, not so good, but trine venus. So generally they have avoided my hard T-square.

I am kinda intellectual so it struck me as not so bad aspect. Yet too much of a good thing, as too much thinking can leave me ungrounded, and suffer too much nervous energy. As I get older I calm down moer.

Love Light Flea