PDA

View Full Version : Exaltation,fall,domicile,detriment


filipneptune
05-03-2015, 10:57 AM
So alot of people do not know,or alot of them claim that gas giants (Neptune,Uranus and Pluto ) do not have an exaltation and fall .
So here is my view,and i would be really thrilled if you would post your so we can have a discussion about it .
DOM DETR EXALT FALL
Sun Leo Aquarius Aries Libra
moon Cancer Capricorn Taurus Scorpio
mercury Gemini/Virgo Pisces/Saggitarius Aquarius Leo
venus Taurus/Libra Aries/Scorpio Pisces Virgo
mars Aries/Scorpio Taurus/Libra Capricorn Cancer
jupiter Sagittarius/Pisces Gemini/Virgo Cancer Capricorn
saturn Capricorn Cancer Libra Aries
uranus Aquarius Leo Scorpio Taurus
neptune Pisces Virgo Sagittarius Gemini
pluto Scorpio Taurus Virgo Pisces

[edited to eliminate suggestion of this being a trolling post - Moderator]

JUPITERASC
05-03-2015, 12:14 PM
So alot of people do not know,or alot of them claim that gas giants (Neptune,Uranus and Pluto ) do not have an exaltation and fall .
So here is my view,and i would be really thrilled if you would post your so we can have an argument about it .
DOM DETR EXALT FALL
Sun Leo Aquarius Aries Libra
moon Cancer Capricorn Taurus Scorpio
mercury Gemini/Virgo Pisces/Saggitarius Aquarius Leo
venus Taurus/Libra Aries/Scorpio Pisces Virgo
mars Aries/Scorpio Taurus/Libra Capricorn Cancer
jupiter Sagittarius/Pisces Gemini/Virgo Cancer Capricorn
saturn Capricorn Cancer Libra Aries
uranus Aquarius Leo Scorpio Taurus
neptune Pisces Virgo Sagittarius Gemini
pluto Scorpio Taurus Virgo Pisces


A few opinions on this topic :smile:


I believe that the long established (Western) dignity/detriment model was developed upon the framework of 12 signs and 7 planets, and that this model works perfectly well within the context of the Hellenist and Traditionalist whole system models. I also question the practicality of attempting to fit other cosmic factors (the outer planets) into that specific model. However, concepts such as dispositorship-like influences, elemental qualities, etc can be applied to these other cosmic factors (the outer planets), although upon an experimental basis (until several hundred years of such uses, and the collection of results from such uses, have been accumulated)...

I use such considerations (dignity, detriment as traditionally defined) only as secondary, modifying factors, and I have borrowed from ancient Vedic astrology the evaluative method called ashtakavarga (8 sources of energy) in making my primary estimations of how well each planet (or sign) will be enabled to express its specific nature and influence, ie, if a sign or planet is in fact "dignified" or "detrimented" (to use more familiar terms)




Paul correctly understood my perspective: no, I do NOT consider Neptune, Uranus or Pluto to be dispositors ("rulers") of any sign-but yes I do consider them to be affinitive to certain signs and dissonant with other signs: for me, if X planet is in, say, Aquarius, then I consider SATURN to be dispositor of that planet, PLUS I consider Uranus to have a relationship to that planet as well (because of the affinity of Uranus with Aquarius), but NOT at the same level (the level of dispositorship) that Saturn has.




I think if we look to the astrologers of the beginning of the 20th century etc. then you see that they were relating back to the tradition. They didn't invent terms like "domicile" they simply inherited them and tried to work out what they mean. All we need to do now is check what they said and refer back to the tradition they thought they were emulating and see if they got it right - we can do this when they couldn't because we have greater access to our tradition.

When we do this we see that they are wrong. They didn't always understand it. They didn't appear to even attempt to understand triplicity term or face. Sect? No chance.

As a result modern astrology is not in a position to say much of anything at all about dignity as it is not a part of their tradition - except in such ways as they tried to borrow it from the greater tradition and messed it up.

So modern astrologers and dignity/debility - they don't use them so can't have much to say about it. I challenge anyone here to prove me wrong if they wish to, I always welcome being corrected and they can do this by finding me a modern author* who makes regular interpretive use of the difference of planetary dignity which includes domicile, detriment, exaltation, fall, triplicity, term, and face.

Interpretive difference would be in recognising debility as well as dignity such that an interpretation of a planetary placement would differ explicitly based on whether that planet has dignity or not in that sign placement.

Having read many modern astrology books I can think of a sum total of absolutely ZERO.

Of course if modern astrologers want to invent new meanings about what domicile means or exaltation they are of course free to do so and when they later assert, as we've seen by some here, that they do not work then I for one will do nothing but agree with them - yes, the new and invented meanings of domicile and exaltation etc do not work.

The reality is that after astrologer emerged from its post-enlightenment little sleep it did so slowly and with great confusion, the astrologers of the time making regular mistakes about what a particular term meant, but that they used those terms at all is a testament to the fact that they were trying to bridge a gap back to their tradition. It is just that they often made mistakes doing it. We can see this with anyone from the likes of Alan Leo to Ivy Goldstein Jacboson.

(*by which I mean one who is not an astrologer discussing the tradition obviously, there are many neo-traditional astrologers and anyone alive today has the right to be called 'modern', these are not the people I mean)


PS
It's worth clarifying, when we say dignity we mean only essential dignity because that is what it is in the actual tradition. Dignity was not used to refer to the angles of the chart or the 'accidental dignities' that we, as neo-traditionalists, might use. It's a sloppiness on the part of the neo-traditional astrologer. Really we should be talking about dignity in term of the essence of the planet, and the 'accidental dignities' as being accidental fortitudes/strengths. The former is qualitative, the latter is quantitive.

filipneptune
05-03-2015, 06:35 PM
A few opinions on this topic :smile:
I don't agree with this,because if the outer planet is located on the angle it can become a strong influence on the person,for example Frank Sinatra has Neptune on MC and he was a singer actually quite succesfull singer,influenced him in his creativity and his career .

Oddity
05-03-2015, 07:43 PM
For that to be true, you'd have to prove that Neptune rules singing careers, or fame from singing careers, and none of the classical planets - like Venus or the Moon or planets in the fifth house - have anything to do with it.

Try again?

You might be better off studying the classical scheme of dignities. It's quite philosophically coherent.

filipneptune
05-03-2015, 08:27 PM
Can i just ask you ? Traditional or Modern ?

JUPITERASC
05-03-2015, 08:36 PM
Can i just ask you ? Traditional or Modern ?


Modern Astrology is entirely based on Traditional Astrology :smile:

for example



http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif

HOW TO READ THIS TABLE http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

filipneptune
05-03-2015, 08:39 PM
...yes I do think neptune has an exaltation,but that doesn't make me crazy OK ?! Now that we cleared that up
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Lorie_(singer)
Lorie she is a singer Neptune in Sagittarius on the MC,trining moon
another example

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

JUPITERASC
05-03-2015, 09:17 PM
I don't agree with this,because if the outer planet is located on the angle it can become a strong influence on the person,

Being angular does confer strength
however
angular strength is very different from essential dignity strength

for example
a planet lacking essential dignity on an angle and therefore strong
may cause considerable disruption :smile:


for example Frank Sinatra has Neptune on MC and he was a singer actually quite succesfull singer,influenced him in his creativity and his career .


That does not explain why
all the other approximately 300,000 people born on the same day as Frank Sinatra
who also have Neptune on MC
were not successful singers and were not creative

JUPITERASC
05-03-2015, 09:19 PM
Lorie she is a singer Neptune in Sagittarius on the MC,trining moon
another example


Generalisation is fun but unreliable :smile:
similarly 300,000 others born on the same day as Lorie
with Neptune in Sagittarius on the MC trining moon
are not singers

filipneptune
05-04-2015, 10:25 AM
well 1. i have misunderstood you,i think you said that outer planets do not have any strenghth,i still do think they have strenghth and dignity
2. you can't say saturn mercury oposition has influence on me because it's happening this day not in my chart,you don't even know where my mercury is so...

JUPITERASC
05-04-2015, 10:42 AM
2. you can't say saturn mercury oposition has influence on me because it's happening this day
not in my chart,
you don't even know where my mercury is so...


Oddity is highlighting the fact that currently Mercury and Saturn are in opposition by transit
yesterday their opposition was exact
transiting planets do affect us all :smile:
some more so than others for various reasons

filipneptune
05-04-2015, 11:09 AM
yeah i meant to say that they do have influence ,but if you look what aspects they form with your chart

Izzy542
05-04-2015, 04:49 PM
I noticed something weird about this too and I would appreciate if someone knows something more to explain. In the case of Mars in fall,exaltation or detriment specially in men charts, this is a very common place for strong men in authority and criminals also, it seems like it gives some extra energy in their actions. I would normally suppose that a man Mars with domicile should be better but lately after going trough some famous powerful people chart I notice that is not the case. Also all the men with this position are extremely stubborn and strong-will.
You can take a look hear http://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article150430_e.htm
with some chart examples of men in power although this is not the state of the author he is talking more specifically about power,but the Mars position I notice it anyway. In case of women Mars in fall it is mostly poor taste in men and lack of bravery in actions. I did not notice anything like this with other planets. Have you?

wilsontc
05-04-2015, 05:29 PM
All,

I have deleted the off-topic comments. Please get back on topic about discussing dignities and debilities.

Back on topic,

Tim

filipneptune
05-04-2015, 05:48 PM
Ok so Mars has domicile in Aries,meaning that those men are energetic,sporty,strong sexual energy,impulsive,quick to react and a bit explosive,detriment in Libra,well as we all know mars shows how strong and how much are we willing to fight for us so a mars in libra is kinda bad because they can't stick up for themselves,that wouldn't indicate an officer or a soldier,no that is mars in aries,mars in libra would be the one to be diplomatic when it comes to solving issues so a mars in libra could be a judge .... mars in exaltation in capricorn can be we could say a person who punishes,a dictator a tiranian,mars in fall in cancer is a person who tries peacfully solve the argument,or fight,but can be rather cranky person,because of it's emotianal nature,mars in cancer could indicate a loyal person,mars in cancer is a person who will fight only for what is his,and as you mentioned earlier mars in cancer women could have a poor taste in men . this is my opinion hope it helps :)

Oddity
05-04-2015, 08:36 PM
I noticed something weird about this too and I would appreciate if someone knows something more to explain. In the case of Mars in fall,exaltation or detriment specially in men charts, this is a very common place for strong men in authority and criminals also, it seems like it gives some extra energy in their actions. I would normally suppose that a man Mars with domicile should be better but lately after going trough some famous powerful people chart I notice that is not the case. Also all the men with this position are extremely stubborn and strong-will.
You can take a look hear http://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article150430_e.htm
with some chart examples of men in power although this is not the state of the author he is talking more specifically about power,but the Mars position I notice it anyway. In case of women Mars in fall it is mostly poor taste in men and lack of bravery in actions. I did not notice anything like this with other planets. Have you?

Okay, this guy is talking about outer planets mostly. But why would only one planet have to do with power? What type of power? If it's political power, I would look to Saturn and Jupiter, or the lights on the MC, or a few other configurations.

I think this is a trap that astrologers tend to fall into too often, but I'm not quite sure what to call it. The 'Only One Thing?' configuration, maybe? The idea that nothing but 'x' in a chart will cause 'y' to come about or not come about in the native's life.

It would be nice if astrology were that simple. It's really not.

E.g., I've had a number of sport star clients, and looked up more charts of those folks. They tend to have a well-dignified Mars in a strong house. But that's only 'tend to'. Look at Arthur Ashe's chart. I think we'd all agree that the man was a brilliant tennis player, and he's got Mars in detriment in Taurus. He's also got a Sun/Mercury conjunction (honours, career) on the MC (an eminence indicator), Moon on the ascendant (another eminence indicator, both lights angular), and Venus over in Virgo (in fall), but Venus trines Mars, and rules the sign Mars is in - sometimes that can pull some of the debility away.

Patton had everything in detriment and fall. He was still a famous general.

If you want to see a negative example, Konrad, who used to be a member here, wrote about Bernie Madoff. He was a powerful man (finance), but Mars in Taurus got him in the end: https://esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com/2014/12/23/an-exposition-of-bernard-madoff-part-1-life-purpose-and-social-standing/ - it's a two-part article, and worth reading both parts.

Hitler had both Mars and Saturn in detriment, but Saturn was elevated, and there was an antiscial conjunction between Saturn, Mars, and Venus. Horrible as the man was, he did not lack power.

Mars can still have a lot of power to act in detriment - it just won't act well, and needs some serious mitigation to do its job at all.

E.g., Mars in Libra may kill a whole lot of people when Mars in Capricorn will only assassinate the one you were supposed to assassinate (to go to extremes here). Or maybe it will cause accidents or health problems for the native or it will ***** up the affairs of the house that it's in or the houses that it rules. In what ways and how severely is going to depend on other chart factors, as well.

This is a really complicated subject, and an important one, and it deserves more than I'm giving it here. But my advice is when you see a planet in detriment or fall, take note of it. It's going to show up somehow. The 'how' will depend on the house position and aspects. And you'll probably have to ask the client about it, too.

It's also not going to act up every day of every year of a person's life. It could just be showing you certain events, or describing other people in the native's life. It will show up when the planet is triggered by time lords.