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View Full Version : John Lennon hyleg & alcocoden or arabic parts of life/death


Arena
12-29-2014, 07:10 PM
I've been reading again through the hyleg and alcocoden threads and also looking into Amy Winehouse's death by sidereal method. I do think it gives us the closest result so far.

If Omni is still around it would be nice to get him to participate :)
But others as well, please do give your views.

I'd like to use this thread for John Lennons hyleg or arabic parts - or what comes closest to his life span.

I will use sidereal method, but feel free to use your own methods.

I am interested in his chart as he does have the Snode in his 1st house, meaning that his life will be cut short. Similar as Amy Winehouse connection to the 8th house and Snode.

John Lennon is born on 9th Oct at 18.30 in Liverpool UK.
By sidereal chart he has Pisces rising, Sun angular at Dsc in Virgo (fame/spotlight) and Moon in Capricorn at the top of the chart.

Moon can be his hyleg in this chart. Having the Moon placed at 10 Capricorn makes his alcocoden be Saturn.

So Saturn has to aspect one of it's rulers.
It is in conjunction to Jupiter (face ruler) and square to Moon (triplicity). It opposes Mercury (term).

I am using Ptolemy's table of dignities and Ptolemy's aspect orb.
It differs from Morinus software dignities. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

So if Saturn is alcocoden it is placed in Aries, which is it's sign of fall. It is in second house. I would think it would be the minor years of Saturn or middle yrs. 30 yrs or 43,5

So it is 30/43,5 + 12 (Jupiters minor yrs)
If I understood the hyleg thread correctly, we do not add or subtract the square to Moon and opposition to Mercury?

If we just take Saturn minor yrs + Jupiter aspect, then he would live 42 yrs which is very close to what he did. Snode on ASC shows us his life was cut short. If we take Saturn middle yrs + Jupiters minor yrs we get 55,5 and if we cut that by 1/4 or 1/3 we get 37-41 yrs.
He lived 40 yrs.

Konrad
12-29-2014, 07:55 PM
Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter as bound lord as Alcocoden. It partiley conjoined Saturn in fall restricts life. I would caution though that you consider the time-lords as more valuable in discerning length of life as opposed to adding and subtracting minor periods. It is good enough to say the native will have a long, medium or short life and then let the time-lords speak of precisely when.

Arena
12-29-2014, 08:12 PM
Well, i am referring to Omni thread about hyleg and alco, following those rules. I get moon as hyleg and Saturn as alco.

You get Jupiter as alco in tropical. Both methods showing shortened life. Although seems like sidereal is quite accurate in this case.

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 09:01 PM
The interpretation of the hyleg and alcochodon are not applicable to individuals who died in accidents or assaults. These two points show the oil our life's flame has to use. It can be shortened through mismanagement or lengthened with proper care, but if someone smashes the lamp...

JUPITERASC
12-29-2014, 09:02 PM
The interpretation of the hyleg and alcochodon are not applicable to individuals who died in accidents.
These two points show the oil our life's flame has to use.
It can be shortened through mismanagement
or lengthened with proper care,
but if someone smashes the lamp...


Good point, well made :smile:

Konrad
12-29-2014, 09:07 PM
The interpretation of the hyleg and alcochodon are not applicable to individuals who died in accidents or assaults. These two points show the oil our life's flame has to use. It can be shortened through mismanagement or lengthened with proper care, but if someone smashes the lamp...

That really depends on your world-view though, doesn't it? Being in essence a determinist, I'd have to disagree.

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 09:11 PM
That really depends on your world-view though, doesn't it? Being in essence a determinist, I'd have to disagree.

Not really. It depends on what one thinks the hyleg and alcochodon are, it was typically used in the way I described above.

JUPITERASC
12-29-2014, 09:17 PM
That really depends on your world-view though, doesn't it? Being in essence a determinist, I'd have to disagree.


Interesting comments on this issue previously discussed :smile: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365065#post365065


Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.



Hmm interesting reasoning. I think that even suicides and accidents of all kind happen first in the mental/astral realm and the condition of the natives mental/astral bodies is a causative trigger here. In other words, the mental-emotional make up of the person is leading him toward physical accidents.
I never saw in my life quite balanced emotionally person to have an accident. Somehow these persons are mastering the physical plane with their mental-emotional vitality.
I can recall of the example which Swami Yogananda gives. Someday in his region an accident happen to some kid: he looses the finger.
Yogananda said to him later: "I saw a dark cloud above your head prior your accident". Vedic astrologers says that planetary configurations (accordingly with the transits, directions and in correlation to the natal chart) opens an astral door for some significance, or mental-astral material which enters in that persons well being. How mature and how it would handle that it is up to the person and maybe some other factors of which we are not aware.
My point here is that physical plane is not all that it exists. So the vitality is something which is and can be relative for a person who works on their inner self developing. Hermeticists says: (Astra inclinant, non necessitant) The stars incline; they do not determine.
So, in a way, the life of the man who is spiritually advanced and the one who is not is different. The first is less predictable than the second.
But again, we can see how very advanced spiritual masters die younger than some quite ordinary man.
It is a deep subject, and my reasoning here is speculative and subjective, but at the moment it is the best I can give.
However, I'm not sure whether the Alcocoden acts as protection. But it can be said like that, it is a state of the vital force, its condition in your 3 bodies: mental, astral and physical. If one is an Alchemist, working with the Stone which is made by man's sperm in which it is pressed a vital force in the maximum amount in human's body, than one can gain immortality, so the Alcocoden here does not count! You have transmute the Alcocoden! :)

Konrad
12-29-2014, 09:18 PM
Not really. It depends on what one thinks the hyleg and alcochodon are, it was typically used in the way I described above.

Exactly. It depends on your starting philosophy. What you say it was typically used for is either here nor there with that in mind.

Konrad
12-29-2014, 09:21 PM
Interesting comments on this issue previously discussed :smile: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365065#post365065

Hi JA,

I'm not sure why Ile should be taken as an authority in this matter. My comment still stands. If you think you can exercise free-will, then I agree with you and Kai. However, I think free-will is ultimately an illusion, so I'd have to disagree.

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 09:24 PM
Exactly. It depends on your starting philosophy. What you say it was typically used for is either here nor there with that in mind.

No, you're misunderstanding me.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that the alcochodon techniques and death by accident are mutually exclusive in some way. Someone's death by accident or assault ought to be destined and that the alcochodon should show that.

I'm saying that that isn't the the traditional technique for that. People's deaths by accidents or whatever can certainly be found in the natal chart (not denying that), but the alcochodon isn't the technique that is passed down to us for that.

JUPITERASC
12-29-2014, 09:27 PM
Not really. It depends on what one thinks the hyleg and alcochodon are,
it was typically used in the way I described above.


and as dr. farr also commented when same issue was previously discussed :smile:



However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting
-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years),
and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.

For example
-and completely different from the technique described in this thread
-use of simple symbolic progression
(1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom")
can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times:
use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods:
in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn):
astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period,
and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart
-which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc)
would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner;

the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use)
also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic
(as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread)
would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year
and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...

Konrad
12-29-2014, 09:30 PM
No, you're misunderstanding me.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that the alcochodon techniques and death by accident are mutually exclusive in some way. Someone's death by accident or assault ought to be destined and that the alcochodon should show that.

I'm saying that that isn't the the traditional technique for that. People's deaths by accidents or whatever can certainly be found in the natal chart (not denying that), but the alcochodon isn't the technique that is passed down to us for that.

I understand, I think. I'm saying the Hyleg shows how long the soul is bound to the physical whether the native dies of 'natural' causes or by what is perceived to be an act of chance. My point is that there us no chance, only a perception of it and that the point in astrological practice is to remove our ignorance if events, not to change their nature.

JUPITERASC
12-29-2014, 09:31 PM
Hi JA,

I'm not sure why Ile should be taken as an authority in this matter. My comment still stands.
Ile simply made an interesting comment

If you think you can exercise free-will, then I agree with you and Kai.

However,

I think free-will is ultimately an illusion,

so I'd have to disagree.

Arguably
'everything is an illustion' :smile:

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 09:36 PM
I understand, I think. I'm saying the Hyleg shows how long the soul is bound to the physical whether the native dies of 'natural' causes or by what is perceived to be an act of chance. My point is that there us no chance, only a perception of it and that the point in astrological practice is to remove our ignorance if events, not to change their nature.


This probably isn't the right thread for a fate/free will debate, so we'll have to keep it short and I'm only going to say that I fall more on the Hermetic side of it, so we aren't too far apart aside from a minor detail.

That being said, I was under the impression (and I may be wrong) that the hyleg merely verifies that there is life and the alcochodon is the one who determines how long it goes.

Moving along that train of thought, what do you look for afterwards to determine likely causes of death? Do you only look afterwards and not beforehand? Is it just directions/progressions/whatever or do you use some other technique?

Konrad
12-30-2014, 07:35 AM
This probably isn't the right thread for a fate/free will debate, so we'll have to keep it short and I'm only going to say that I fall more on the Hermetic side of it, so we aren't too far apart aside from a minor detail.

Yes, I thought as much. I wouldn't call myself a Stoic but I'm closer to that than your own position. You're right though, we are not too far apart. We probably have the same destination in mind.

That being said, I was under the impression (and I may be wrong) that the hyleg merely verifies that there is life and the alcochodon is the one who determines how long it goes.

No, you're right. I only said Hyleg as I'm on a phone and it is a laborious task typing on it.

Moving along that train of thought, what do you look for afterwards to determine likely causes of death? Do you only look afterwards and not beforehand? Is it just directions/progressions/whatever or do you use some other technique?

I direct the Hyleg after judging the general length of life, and then narrow it down further with the annual techniques. Obviously I practice on deceased people, but I have a few predictions awaiting confirmation. I won't be too thrilled to be correct since they are belonging to family members, but that is the cost of being allowed to practice our art.

Arena
12-30-2014, 09:30 AM
ok, it seems to me obvious that siderealists and tropicalists will many times find different hylegs and alcocoden.
What has been said here though is that you dont actually follow the bonatti method or other methods that suggest we take the aspects of the alcocoden into consideration for length of life, but only the yrs of the alcocoden itself?

Am I right in assuming this?

If so, may I ask you to explain why?

Konrad
12-30-2014, 09:47 AM
ok, it seems to me obvious that siderealists and tropicalists will many times find different hylegs and alcocoden.
What has been said here though is that you dont actually follow the bonatti method or other methods that suggest we take the aspects of the alcocoden into consideration for length of life, but only the yrs of the alcocoden itself?

Am I right in assuming this?

If so, may I ask you to explain why?

If you're referring to me, I take a rough estimate of the condition of the bound lord of the Hyleg noting its position, state and aspects to come at a short, medium or long figure relative to its greater period. The reason is that I don't see the method you suggest working in practice. As I said, the time-lords are much more precise and they are what we would be looking at if we were doing a chart reading for some person anyway. For what it's worth, I began studying this by looking at short lives but soon concluded that extra long lives are more rare and were more telling. When you have someone living a hundred years with a luminary nowhere to be found, you have to look elsewhere. I found my answer to be in the time-lords.

Arena
12-30-2014, 10:27 AM
Thanks Konrad
So you follow the time lords (not aspect to it) in this table in the first post of this thread: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46808

To choose the alcocoden, do you not go by the point system of
5 domicile
4 exaltation
3 triplicity
2 term
1 face

???


Time lord being alcocoden (giver of yrs/time lord) and then you just look at it's placement by dignity/debility and angularity/cadency?

I guess you would also go for a shortened life (minor yrs) when aspecting malefics or placed with Snode?

Konrad
12-30-2014, 12:03 PM
Sorry, I should have clarified. By 'time-lord' I mean the various methods of dividing up the native's life into periods such as Decennials, Firdariyyah etc.

I always use the bound lord of the Hyleg as Alcocoden (following Valens) because the bound lord of anything is said to set the limits of that thing. There is also a tradition of associating the bounds with the physical. I don't use Decans and I am really not happy with the doctrine of the Triplicities that has come down to us. I don't think that it fits the function of the domicile lord or exaltation lord to signify the Alcocoden.

As for the specifics of my own practice, I tend to look at the process of astrology more holistically, so the affliction of the Alcocoden by malefics speaks of a shorter, more difficult, life but I wouldn't put a number on it, only a rough time-frame. The rest of the chart will point us to the when. I also don't use the Nodes as I see no reason for any of the non-luminaries to be affected by them.