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tikana
12-29-2014, 01:35 AM
Hey ppl

who wanted the breakdown of Hyleg and Acocoden

Practice chart of Amy Winehouse

http://www.astrotheme.com/images/carte.domification.php?ID=50&rafraichir=13070

Her Hyleg is Moon
Her Alcocoden is Saturn

Let's figure out how that came about

https://books.google.com/books?id=u4RF3OL6BxAC&pg=PA143&dq=astrology+hyleg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G8GgVLLDLpDaoATPlICADQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=astrology%20hyleg&f=false

page 142

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 01:49 AM
Already did it on the other thread. Can be found here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=592711#post592711).

Very short.

tikana
12-29-2014, 01:58 AM
whose formula are you using?
with my chart i am getting
Bonatti - moon
ptolemy - asce

so the ruler of moon or asce is the alcocoden?

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 02:08 AM
Winehouse's chart is nocturnal, so we go to the Moon first to see if she is in a hylegical house, these are the 1st, 11th, 10th, 9th, and 7th. Moon is in the Seventh house, so passes the first test. Next, our supposed hyleg needs to aspect one of its lords, and the Moon is casting a sextile to its domicile lord Saturn. This validates the Moon as our hyleg and designates Saturn as our alcochodon.

Arena
12-29-2014, 02:31 PM
Is this her AA birth data:
September 14, 1983, 10:25 PM
Enfield, London (United Kingdom)

Wow, how sidereal zodiac makes total sense in her chart... let me go through it in my amateur view and then I'll make a try on her hyleg and alco.

Her Sun is in Leo - she has star qualities and performer.
Her Asc is Taurus and her sec. Asc (EP) is Aries- she has the beauty of Venus, but is also a very blunt type (Aries).
Her Venus (Asc ruler) and Mars (EP ruler) are conjunct.

But we need to look at her moon since she is a noctural person.
I looked at her mundoscope to see what planets are angular if any.
Her Moon and Neptune are angular, this means Moon shining star and Neptune is very creative indeed, especially with the angularity and conjunct Moon (or Venus). But the Neptune angular also means addictions and substance abuse. Also in her spouse, it is on her Dsc.

Her Moon is in Sagi in 7th by Alcabitius system, but it is placed in 8th house by whole sign - showing again early death or strong connection to 8th house.

She has her Snode conjunct her Dsc. This will cut her life short by 1/4 or 1/3.

Saturn trines her ASC by partile aspect.

Now I will look into the hyleg thread again to see some clues with the sidereal method. But we already have a clue of early death and substance abuse along with her creativity by looking at these.

Her Moon -Neptune angularity would really be a BIG impact in her life since angular:
http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=72#p74
http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=71#p81
http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1997&p=71#p81

He Uranus, Pluto and Jupiter are angular as well, below the horizon on Dsc.

Konrad
12-29-2014, 03:06 PM
For what it's worth, I have looked at her chart previously, and judged the ASC as Hyleg, Saturn as Alcocoden. Venus and Saturn showing what her life was for via lordship of the Hyleg fits very well; expect both together and afflicted to always show problems with substances. In fact, those two together speaking of a native's death will tend to show death from toxins, drugs or medicines.

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 03:15 PM
Hey Konrad, curious why you dismissed the Moon as hyleg.

Arena
12-29-2014, 03:31 PM
Ok, I'll try the hyleg exercise now.

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign

I will use only traditional methods, so combine Alcabitius system and whole sign.

Her Moon is in 7th Alca, but in 8th WSH.
Some might use it as hyleg - I think it might not be. Something tells me it is forbidden.

We see her Snode would have touched her Moon at the age of 10 if we just count the degrees. I don't know if something happened in her life at the time, suggesting an ending - other than her parents got divorced when she was 9. That would have been Moon and Snode in partile aspect. By transit this is the year that her natal nodes meet the transiting nodes.

We see her Sun meets the conditions above by both house systems, it is in 4th sign in both and a masculine sign. It is in it's own sign, in Jupiter's triplicity (night) and Mars' face and term.
Sun=5
Jupiter= 3
Mars= 2+1=3

Sun can hardly be both hyleg and alcocoden? Or can it? Well, it does not aspect Jupiter nor Mars. No this rules out the Sun as hyleg.

Next we look to the POF as potential hyleg.
POF is 13.59 Aqua. So having Saturn as domicile ruler, Mercury by triplicity, face and term by Ptolemy's table (a bit different in Morinus program, showing Jupiter as face ruler)
Saturn=5
Mercury= 3+2+1

We see that Saturn trines the POF by Ptolemy's orb fact.

So POF can by hyleg and Saturn alcocoden by this method.
Saturn is in Libra in her sidereal chart, so in it's sign of exaltation, and even with the cadent house I will take the maximum amount of yers by the table, 57 yrs. Saturn is sextiled by Moon, so we add it's minor years 25. This gives 82 yrs

Cut by 1/3 we would get 55 yrs - so not accurate (did I forget something?)

But if we take Saturn's middle yrs (cadent house)
43,5 + 25 (Moon) = 68,5 - 1/3 = 46

If we take Saturn's minor years it would be:
30+25= 55 - 1/3 = 37 - so it is still off.

But as mentioned in the hyleg thread astrologers believe that Pluto may also be another shortening factor of life if placed near these - and it is conjunct Saturn in Amy's chart.

Let me try the Asc as possible hyleg in next post.

Arena
12-29-2014, 03:55 PM
So by sidereal we see that Amy's ASC is 23 Taurus.
Domicile Venus 5
Exaltation Moon 4
Triplicity Moon 3
Face and term Saturn 2+1=3

Moon would be alcocoden - might fit better as it is in her 8th house.
Moon is only aspected by Saturn, but sextile so if I understand correctly that would mean no adding or subtracting the yrs of Saturn.

If we see Moon as in the 8th house, I would think we take it's minor years, 25 yrs. ...but it is indeed angular so I am not sure of this. But it could indeed fit with the Amy Winehouse story.

Arena
12-29-2014, 04:19 PM
As I have seen dr. farr show some really good points in this forum, and he does so in this thread as well:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46232

I'd like to also look into the lot of hyleg to see where it falls in Amy's chart.
Then I might also take some time to do the almuten of all the points to see if Omni has a point there.

Lot of hyleg
The "Part" or Lot of the Hyleg (Lot of the giver of life) Much used in Islamic transitional era astrology; formula: ascendant + degree of the full or new Moon immediately prior to birth - natal Moon = pars hyleg.


1983 9 7 2:36.1 New Moon / Sep 7 02:35
Degree of that Moon is Leo 18.47

So the part of hyleg is Aquarius 5.57 by newer formula
That shows Saturn as alcocoden

Formula for part hyleg from Bonatti
Ascendant + Moon - SAN*
This would give Virgo 9.55 as part of hyleg

I'm not sure how the parts are used though, just felt like calculating it.
If using Bonatti's part of hyleg, we see that by directing it 27 degrees, it conjuncts Saturn.

Arena
12-29-2014, 04:20 PM
I think the Moon is actually giving us the most insight in Amy's chart.
Placed in 8th whole sign houses it would probably tell us to take the minor years 25 plus some months and weeks - which is approximately when she dies.
Snode also cuts it short.

Konrad
12-29-2014, 04:28 PM
Hey Konrad, curious why you dismissed the Moon as hyleg.

Hi,

simply because it is in the 8th sign. I am not even certain of 7th sign luminaries acting as Hyleg, to be honest. I have seen 12th sign luminaries functioning very well though, but that was due to it also being the sign of the MC.

Arena
12-29-2014, 04:38 PM
Since I am looking also at transits to her chart, I not some interesting things happening at the time of her death.

Her transit Snode conjunct her natal Nnode close to Asc.
Pluto on the cusp of her 8th alcabitius house,opposing her part of death at 10 Gemini.
Neptune (substance abuse) on dr. farrs part of hyleg.
Transit asc brought to her 8th house (wsh), conjunct Neptune.

Profected 8th house comes to her EP in Aries.
Profected Asc comes to natal Saturn
Profected POF comes to part of death.

Solar returns were oftentimes used as powerful forecast method.
Her SR chart for time of death also shows us some signs.
Saturn on IC in mundo, Moon on MC mundo (and ecliptic as well).
Her natal POF in SR 8th house. Her SR POF in natal 8th.
Her SR Asc comes to her natal Vx point (second Dsc point)

Her sec. progressed Moon is partile to the cusp of 8th house alcabitius system. Opposing her part of death.

Arena
12-29-2014, 06:34 PM
IF Moon is hyleg in sidereal, then Jupiter is her alcocoden, placed in Snodes sign of exaltation and within the same sign as the Snode itself. Placed malefically that is.

That would probably give her Jupiters minor years since it is also cadent. Jupiter aspect her Sun and Mercury by sextile, and squares her Venus and Mars.
12 yrs. + the aspects to Sun, Mercury, - Venus and - Mars.

12 + 19 + 20 - 8 - 15 = 28