PDA

View Full Version : So what happens AFTER Mercury in Retrograde ends?


Apartofme
10-30-2014, 12:46 AM
One of the reasons joined this site was to further educate myself about Astrology. Astrology is one of my die hard hobbies that stick with me. During Mercury in Retrograde rediscovered my love for Astrology again after four years of ignoring it. SO, now want to know. n general, what happens when Mercury in Retrograde ends?

What is Retrograde? think know the answer but [I]d' love to hear it clearly from a professional.

[I]s retrograde when a planet (Mercury for example) appears to be moving backwards?

How does a retrograde affect us? Does the affect vary depending on the planet that is in retrograde? [ notice a lot of people have a strong dislike for Mercury in retrograde, HOWEVER, had a fantastic Mercury in retrograde. Good things happened to me during the retrograde, it wasn't so bad as everybody claimed it to be. s that weird?

MsMadCat
10-30-2014, 12:51 AM
I've been wondering the same thing. I know that I got bad news on mercury in retrograde or simply had a problem I am well too familiar with. I had trouble in communication during those weeks. Now, it feels like things are better, but I'm not sure.

ashriia
10-30-2014, 01:22 AM
HOWEVER, had a fantastic Mercury in retrograde. Good things happened to me during the retrograde, it wasn't so bad as everybody claimed it to be. s that weird?[/I][/I]

Hi, welcome to the forum.:smile:

It really depends on the good things that happened to you... this could have been due to other transits occurring in your natal chart. Mercury rules communications of all types. A great way to use a Mercury retrograde period is to look at the house it is transiting in your natal chart when it begins its RX period, and utilize it's energy positively. So say for instance, if it goes retro in your 11th house..11th house rules friends/hopes/dreams/groups. You could utilize the time by returning to something related to those things. Go visit and old friend, get back to a group activity you once enjoyed, take up an old dream again.. maybe you wanted to write a book long ago, for instance... take up writing it again.. and so on.

that way your in harmony with the energy of the retrograde, rather than working against it. and when you work in harmony with it, it tends to be a more fruitful period or rather, less things tend to go wrong.

Bunraku
10-30-2014, 02:42 AM
See, my Mercury rules my 7th house cusp. Whenever it retrogrades, a lover from the past always returns, or at least have one from the past thrown in front of me. No exceptions!

Seriously. For this recent one we're having, I was staying indoors not going outside, and some past interest just popped up on Facebook. How unexpected is that!

Zarathu
10-30-2014, 03:37 AM
Those of us who were born with Mercury Retrograde usually have less of a problem with the retrograde in regards to our personal use of Mercury. We tend to innately compensate at these times. That doesn't mean that our computer won't go whacko or that our internet connection won't stop working or other stuff like that during RX.

Apartofme
10-30-2014, 05:08 AM
See, my Mercury rules my 7th house cusp. Whenever it retrogrades, a lover from the past always returns, or at least have one from the past thrown in front of me. No exceptions!

Seriously. For this recent one we're having, I was staying indoors not going outside, and some past interest just popped up on Facebook. How unexpected is that!


During Mercury Retrograde I had an enchanting dream about a beautiful boy. I now hope to manifest him into the physical and meet him in person Law Of Attraction style. I feel that he was a past life soulmate (that's what I felt in the dream, even though I did not recognize him AT ALL). I mention this because you mention past lovers returning.

Apartofme
10-30-2014, 05:10 AM
Those of us who were born with Mercury Retrograde usually have less of a problem with the retrograde in regards to our personal use of Mercury. We tend to innately compensate at these times. That doesn't mean that our computer won't go whacko or that our internet connection won't stop working or other stuff like that during RX.

Was I born in a Retrograde? October 3rd, 1995?

Konrad
10-30-2014, 07:18 AM
Wouldn't a more insightful (and relevant to this forum) question be why would you put so much weight into the retrograde phase of Mercury in the first place?

Bina
10-30-2014, 07:59 AM
Was I born in a Retrograde? October 3rd, 1995?

yes, you were... when you were around 10-11 years old progressed Mercury went stationary direct - was there any significant changes in your thinking or communication at that time which you can remember?

Kaiousei no Senshi
10-30-2014, 12:24 PM
Since this is the tradition forum that this is in, I think it's important to point out that there is no special mention of Mercury retrograde periods in traditional texts. It isn't any more or any less special than any of the other planetary retrograde periods. It seems to be more of a modern phenomenon in that it is something really easy to understand and it's bite-sized so even the non-astrologically inclined can appreciate it.

The problems begin to appear when you notice most people have no significant "Mercury retrograde type" things happening to them. This isn't something that is specific to Mercury retrograde either as everyone knows someone who was anticipating an upcoming transit only to have nothing manifest. Classically, transits must be activated by some time lord technique before anything becomes of them.

One example I have of this is back when Mercury went retrograde in Pisces, it just so happened to do so in an exact trine to my natal lord of the year. Throughout this retrograde period I became extremely nostalgic for media that I consumed in my childhood (time lord is in the Fifth natal house) and basically re-watched every television show and re-played every video game that I had when I was a child.

The past couple Mercury retrogrades have been insignificant because its been averse to my lord of the year, and not touching any activated planet results in nothing.

Apartofme
10-30-2014, 01:10 PM
Wouldn't a more insightful (and relevant to this forum) question be why would you put so much weight into the retrograde phase of Mercury in the first place?
Hmm... well. I didn't think of that. I guess you're right.:pouty:

Apartofme
10-30-2014, 02:39 PM
yes, you were... when you were around 10-11 years old progressed Mercury went stationary direct - was there any significant changes in your thinking or communication at that time which you can remember?

What does stationary direct mean?

What do you mean progressed mercury went stationary direct?

I'm trying to remember where I was 10... 11.

Apartofme
10-30-2014, 03:06 PM
Since this is the tradition forum that this is in, I think it's important to point out that there is no special mention of Mercury retrograde periods in traditional texts. It isn't any more or any less special than any of the other planetary retrograde periods. It seems to be more of a modern phenomenon in that it is something really easy to understand and it's bite-sized so even the non-astrologically inclined can appreciate it.

The problems begin to appear when you notice most people have no significant "Mercury retrograde type" things happening to them. This isn't something that is specific to Mercury retrograde either as everyone knows someone who was anticipating an upcoming transit only to have nothing manifest. Classically, transits must be activated by some time lord technique before anything becomes of them.

One example I have of this is back when Mercury went retrograde in Pisces, it just so happened to do so in an exact trine to my natal lord of the year. Throughout this retrograde period I became extremely nostalgic for media that I consumed in my childhood (time lord is in the Fifth natal house) and basically re-watched every television show and re-played every video game that I had when I was a child.

The past couple Mercury retrogrades have been insignificant because its been averse to my lord of the year, and not touching any activated planet results in nothing.

What is trine? Triangle?

JUPITERASC
10-30-2014, 03:07 PM
During Mercury Retrograde I had an enchanting dream about a beautiful boy.
I now hope to manifest him into the physical and meet him in person Law Of Attraction style.
I feel that he was a past life soulmate (that's what I felt in the dream,
even though I did not recognize him AT ALL).
I mention this because you mention past lovers returning.


You have posted your enquiry on the Traditional area of our forum
and
Traditionally, the 'Law of Attraction' and 'past life soulmates'
are not the province of Traditional astrology

by the way
Traditionally
HELLENISTIC astrologers vividly described any retrograde planet as 'walking backwards'
and
therefore
unable to adequately act :smile:

JUPITERASC
10-30-2014, 03:10 PM
What is trine? Triangle?


Explanation of trine and triangle: AN INTRODUCTION TO ASPECTS
AND CHART SHAPING IN ASTROLOGY
by NICHOLAS CAMPION http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects2.html :smile:

JUPITERASC
10-30-2014, 03:15 PM
What does stationary direct mean?

What do you mean progressed mercury went stationary direct?

I'm trying to remember where I was 10... 11.


APPARENT RETROGRADE MOTION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_retrograde_motion :smile:

Blaze
10-30-2014, 06:44 PM
Was I born in a Retrograde? October 3rd, 1995?

Seeing how you were born a day before my younger brother and he has a RX Mercury in Libra...I'm guessing you do, too. :smile:

JUPITERASC
10-30-2014, 07:39 PM
Seeing how you were born a day before my younger brother
and
he has a RX Mercury in Libra...
I'm guessing you do, too. :smile:


Guesswork is fun but unreliable :smile:

so

link to ASTRODIENST FREE EPHEMERIS FOR EACH MONTH OF 1995 http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1900/ae_1995.pdf

ASTRODIENST FREE 6000 YEAR EPHEMERIS http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swepha_e.htm

The Ram
11-01-2014, 06:39 PM
The vedics consider a retrograde planet to be stronger, yet traditionalists consider it to be weaker. This tells me that both potentials are there for a retrograde planet, ie it becoming stronger or weaker, or somewhere in between. The one sure thing is that the planet will act in a way thats uncharacteristic of the planet to act. It'll become a bit of a weirdo. Again, this can be for better or worse,

With Mercury rx the standard transportation, logic and communication malfunctions can happen, or it can trigger an epiphany, the type of ah hah moment where the proverbial ligtbulb goes off in our heads bringing some much needed illumination to a matter we havn't quite grasped as of yet. In general it might be most common to experience a mixture of both.

JUPITERASC
11-01-2014, 07:21 PM
The vedics consider a retrograde planet to be stronger, yet traditionalists consider it to be weaker. This tells me that both potentials are there for a retrograde planet, ie it becoming stronger or weaker, or somewhere in between. The one sure thing is that the planet will act in a way thats uncharacteristic of the planet to act. It'll become a bit of a weirdo. Again, this can be for better or worse,

With Mercury rx the standard transportation, logic and communication malfunctions can happen, or it can trigger an epiphany, the type of ah hah moment where the proverbial ligtbulb goes off in our heads bringing some much needed illumination to a matter we havn't quite grasped as of yet. In general it might be most common to experience a mixture of both


The OP posted this thread on the TRADITIONAL forum
Meaningless generalisations are not a part of traditional practice
and
Mercury retrograde is studied traditionally with regard to SIGN LOCATION
as well as HOUSE LOCATION :smile:

The Ram
11-01-2014, 07:47 PM
Lol youre welcome to delete my post if wilson has granted you the priviledge. Otherwise if you really want to talk about meaningless posts then your attempt at policing mine would most fall under thatcategory in this thread.

Though youve highlighted nicely my biggest issue with this sub forum, that essentially ppl will get up in arms if you try to say anything here that hasnt already been said by someone else hundreds of years ago.

tsmall
11-01-2014, 10:16 PM
Though youve highlighted nicely my biggest issue with this sub forum, that essentially ppl will get up in arms if you try to say anything here that hasnt already been said by someone else hundreds of years ago.

I can understand how it could be perceived that way if someone doesn't study traditional astrology.

Part of the reason this sub forum was formed was to create a place where threads specific to traditional methods could be grouped together. Astrologers/students wouldn't have to hunt through hundreds of threads, or posts to threads, to find discussion they were looking for regarding traditional techniques.

The vedics consider a retrograde planet to be stronger, yet traditionalists consider it to be weaker.

This is not entirely accurate. There is more to consider when looking at planets than whether or not they are "strong" or weak, which descriptions generally imply angularity rather than capability. A retrograde planet, similar to a combust planet, is not able to receive an applying aspect and so returns it. Dignity, planetary nature, as well as the total condition of the applying planet will determine if the returning is with or without corruption, i.e. if the returning will harm the applying planet.


What does stationary direct mean?

When a planet moves retrograde or direct, it is said to "station." Planets approaching their first station (retrograde) are unsure, without purpose. Planets approaching and in their second station (that is when retrograde ends) are firmer of purpose and have a clear understanding of where they are going.

Imagine that you are walking backwards. Can you see behind you? Is it easier to trip and fall? Run into something? If someone throws a ball at you are you likely to catch it? Are you sure footed?

Now imagine that you are able to move forward again. Can you see where you are going? Do you have sureness to your step, a firm purpose and the ability to walk where you intend?

What is trine? Triangle?

A trine is an aspect that is made when 120* separate two planets. The five Ptolemaic aspects are the sextile, square, trine, opposition and then the conjunction which isn't an aspect so much as a joining. Although this


One of the reasons [I] joined this site was to further educate myself about Astrology. Astrology is one of my die hard hobbies that stick with me.

Rather suggests that if you have studied anything about astrology you'd at least be familiar with the names of the aspects, and what they mean...

The Ram
11-01-2014, 10:53 PM
I study traditional, vedic and modern astrology. I can see that perhaps you have a lot to learn yet on this subject yourself, as already your predictions are way off.

Now youre trying to argue that a retrograde planet isn't considered weaker by most traditionalists. Lol.....ok. Ill end this here. Youve told me all I needed to know about your perspective on this matter. Good luck to you in your studies.

tsmall
11-01-2014, 11:04 PM
I study traditional, vedic and modern astrology. I can see that perhaps you have a lot to learn yet on this subject yourself, as already your predictions are way off.

Now youre trying to argue that a retrograde planet isn't considered weaker by most traditionalists. Lol.....ok. Ill end this here. Youve told me all I needed to know about your perspective on this matter. Good luck to you in your studies.

Hey, thanks! Considering that I've read many works frontwards and backwards, including authors like Dorotheus, Sahl, Ibn Ezra, Masha'allah, (Bonatti, Lilly...)and in regard particularly to the topic under discussion, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi, I'd suggest taking it up with them if you have difficulty understanding that there is a difference between weakness (fortitude) and capability or the lack thereof. A planet could be able to handle it's matters very nicely (capable) and be in no position to do so because it is impeded in some way. Conversely, a planet could be capable of making hash of something and strong enough to have that hash explode all over the chart.

If you are interested in learning the delineative meaning, traditionally, of retrograde planets and how they perform, as well as the delineative meaning of stationing planets, might I suggest Benjamin Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology?

JUPITERASC
11-01-2014, 11:04 PM
I study traditional, vedic and modern astrology.
I can see that perhaps you have a lot to learn yet on this subject yourself, as already your predictions are way off.

Now youre trying to argue that a retrograde planet isn't considered weaker by most traditionalists. Lol.....

ok. Ill end this here.

Youve told me all I needed to know about your perspective on this matter.
Good luck to you in your studies.


We are all learning astrology and we all have much to learn on the subject :smile:

Good luck to you also with regard to your studies

A study of traditional astrology
shows that HELLENISTIC astrologers
differentiated between retrograde planets
dependent on their location within their particular retrograde cycle
i.e. IF making a PHASIS
7 days prior to the nativity
and
7 days following the nativity
THEN
the retrograde planet has, to quote ROBERT SCHMIDT of
PROJECT HINDSIGHT http://www.projecthindsight.com/
'an appearance that speaks'
and has a potentially powerful role in the nativity

Konrad
11-01-2014, 11:41 PM
Now youre trying to argue that a retrograde planet isn't considered weaker by most traditionalists.

I can see why you'd think that, but, if I am correctly understanding how you are perceiving "weakness", that isn't quite how a Hellensitic or Medieval astrologer would have viewed a planet in its retrograde phase.

As Tsmall has said, the idea of being "strong" or "weak" in expression is generally found by considering a planet's angularity, but can also be found in other ways. Now the sense of "weakness" communicated by a retrograde planet should be considered a weakness in it being able to carry out its duties in a consistently positive manner, not in the strength of its expression. Thus we can have a retrograde planet being "strong" in its prominence but "weak" in its capability to complete its assigned duties.

To be completely clear, we should probably change our vocabulary to better suit the concepts we are describing. Using catch-all terms such as "strong" and "weak" when talking about different things entirely is bound to lead to confusion. We also have to remove any implication of "good " or "bad" when we are using terms such as "strong" or "weak", as a planet can be good and weak, or bad and strong, and in fact even those distinctions don't quite encapsulate the nuanced ways in which a planet will behave. Without stretching this out any further, I guess you'd probably have to describe exactly what you mean when you say a retrograde planet is "strong" or "weak". Regardless, I assert that it is incorrect to say that it is both, or somewhere in the middle.

The Ram
11-02-2014, 02:48 AM
Hey, thanks! Considering that I've read many works frontwards and backwards, including authors like Dorotheus, Sahl, Ibn Ezra, Masha'allah, (Bonatti, Lilly...)and in regard particularly to the topic under discussion, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi, I'd suggest taking it up with them if you have difficulty understanding that there is a difference between weakness (fortitude) and capability or the lack thereof. A planet could be able to handle it's matters very nicely (capable) and be in no position to do so because it is impeded in some way. Conversely, a planet could be capable of making hash of something and strong enough to have that hash explode all over the chart.

If you are interested in learning the delineative meaning, traditionally, of retrograde planets and how they perform, as well as the delineative meaning of stationing planets, might I suggest Benjamin Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology?

Ive read most of those authors myself. Its good that you brought up Lilly who listed a planet in retrograde as a -5 debility, whereas a planet being direct and not at a slow speed is considered a dignity. I believe Lilly nailed it as far as the conventional traditionalist view goes. But if you believe that the majority of traditionalists dont consider being retrograde a weakness, then youre entitled to your opinion.

I read the Introduction to TA by Dykes, it was quite good, but then again his work is of pretty high quality accross the board.

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-02-2014, 03:04 AM
TheRam,

You're still not understanding the distinction that is being made between weak/strong and capable/incapable. Retrograde planets are incapable (thus debilitated), but not necessarily weak.

To further clarify, I would recommend reviewing pages 220-224 of Dykes's ITA where he puts Abu Mashar's and al-Qabisi's discussion of the impotence and misfortune of the planets. Lilly's table is convenient, but loses a lot of depth in its brevity.

The Ram
11-02-2014, 03:56 AM
Your still not understanding the definition of the word weak. Here's some helpful info:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/weak

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/weak


Check out the synonyms, debilitated is a synonym for the word weak. So to say that a debilitated planet is not weak is an oxymoron.

I completely understand your distinction though and am familiar with the concept. Youre saying that a planet whos weak in being able to do good, may not be weak in being able to do bad.

Wgat you misunderstand is that when Im talking about the weakness of a planet Im talking about said weakness in relation to the person who has it. Terminal cancer for instance may be strong in a bad way, but to say its anything but a weakness for the person who has it is ridiculous.

Im saying a retrograde planet is considered by many to be weak, as he is believed to weaken the chart itself. His capability in doing bad is irrelevant as that is a weakness in itself.

The Ram
11-02-2014, 05:52 AM
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Navy][B]We are all learning astrology and we all have much to learn on the subject :smile
Yes, very true, I know I definitely still have a lot to learn.

In retrospect I think its kindof condescending for ppl in this thread (myself included) to be telling others what they know or dont know. I think we misunderstood each other and for that im partially responsible. Cie la vie and I apologize for reacting to ppl here in that way.

JUPITERASC
11-02-2014, 06:23 AM
Ive read most of those authors myself. Its good that you brought up Lilly who listed a planet in retrograde as a -5 debility, whereas a planet being direct and not at a slow speed is considered a dignity.
I believe Lilly nailed it as far as the conventional traditionalist view goes.
But if you believe that the majority of traditionalists dont consider being retrograde a weakness, then youre entitled to your opinion.

I read the Introduction to TA by Dykes, it was quite good, but then again his work is of pretty high quality accross the board.


Many BEGINNERS are likely to be more familiar with Lilly
than with Dorotheus, Sahl, Ibn Ezra, Masha'allah, Bonatti, et al
but that does not automatically mean that Lilly is the 'Conventional traditionalist'.
Lilly is far from the sole source of traditional astrologers
as you are aware if you have read Benjamin Dykes.
BUT apparently you only read the INTRODUCTION to TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY by BENJAMIN DYKES
so do read and learn from the entire range of books translated by BENJAMIN DYKES
when you find an opportunity to read the authors mentioned by tsmall also.



TheRam,

You're still not understanding the distinction that is being made between weak/strong

and capable/incapable.

Retrograde planets are incapable
(thus debilitated),
but not necessarily weak.

To further clarify,

I would recommend reviewing pages 220-224 of Dykes's ITA
where he puts Abu Mashar's and al-Qabisi's discussion of the impotence and misfortune of the planets.
Lilly's table is convenient, but loses a lot of depth in its brevity.

By now you have probably reviewed pages 220 - 224 of BENJAMIN DYKES INTRODUCTION TO TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY
and so the distinction is likely clearer to you
because
As Kaiousei no Senshi clearly states,
there's far more to assessment of planetary strength than using SOLELY Lilly's points table


Your still not understanding the definition of the word weak. Here's some helpful info:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/weak

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/weak


Check out the synonyms, debilitated is a synonym for the word weak. So to say that a debilitated planet is not weak is an oxymoron.

I completely understand your distinction though and am familiar with the concept. Youre saying that a planet whos weak in being able to do good, may not be weak in being able to do bad.

Wgat you misunderstand is that when Im talking about the weakness of a planet Im talking about said weakness in relation to the person who has it. Terminal cancer for instance may be strong in a bad way, but to say its anything but a weakness for the person who has it is ridiculous.

Im saying a retrograde planet is considered by many to be weak, as he is believed to weaken the chart itself. His capability in doing bad is irrelevant as that is a weakness in itself.


On the contrary
As previously well explained by many others on this thread
the strength of a retrograde planet IS extrememly relevant


Yes, very true, I know I definitely still have a lot to learn.

In retrospect I think its kindof condescending for ppl in this thread (myself included) to be telling others what they know or dont know. I think we misunderstood each other and for that im partially responsible. Cie la vie and I apologize for reacting to ppl here in that way.

Traditional astrology is a never-ending learning experience
and
since you mention that you 'have read most of' of the authors referred to by tsmall
i.e Dorotheus, Sahl, Ibn Ezra, Masha'allah, Abu Mashar and al-Qabisi
and
as ours is an astrological learning forum
and therefore many of us, including myself, are keen to learn and discuss
perhaps you can clarify as to which of those authors in particular support your contention and how :smile:

The Ram
11-02-2014, 06:46 AM
I already mentioned one, Lilly who gives it a -5 debility, which as I previously clarified to those who were unaware a debility is a synonym for weakness. So Lilly for one agrees with my asessment.:happy: Dont feel like pulling more books out to prove what ive already proven, too busy reading other books.

And nah I havnt read an Introduction by Dykes in awhile now. I dont need to, as I stated correctly that being retrograde is considered by most traditionalists to be a weakness whos synonym= debility. :tongue:

For someone with Jupiter in the ascendant dont you think this arguement is a little small? Ive got better things to do with my time.Im sorry, if you dont.

JUPITERASC
11-02-2014, 07:19 AM
I already mentioned one, Lilly who gives it a -5 debility, which as I previously clarified to those who were unaware a debility is a synonym for weakness. So Lilly for one agrees with my asessment.:happy: Dont feel like pulling more books out to prove what ive already proven, too busy reading other books.

And nah I havnt read an Introduction by Dykes in awhile now. I dont need to, as I stated correctly that being retrograde is considered by most traditionalists to be a weakness whos synonym= debility. :tongue:

For someone with Jupiter in the ascendant dont you think this arguement is a little small? Ive got better things to do with my time.Im sorry, if you dont.


Lilly obtained information from ancient astrological texts
he was fortunate to have access to a well stocked library
Perhaps you would benefit from reading the same ancient authors Lilly read
paticularly since today we have access to BENJAMIN DYKES great translations http://www.bendykes.com/

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-02-2014, 02:25 PM
Wgat you misunderstand is that when Im talking about the weakness of a planet Im talking about said weakness in relation to the person who has it. Terminal cancer for instance may be strong in a bad way, but to say its anything but a weakness for the person who has it is ridiculous.

Yes, I am misunderstanding that because it is the exact opposite of how classical astrology delineates charts. Here, we aren't discussing if retrograde planets are weak for people, but if retrograde motion makes planets weak. The answer to both of those questions is based on the context of the chart.

Check out the synonyms, debilitated is a synonym for the word weak. So to say that a debilitated planet is not weak is an oxymoron.

I guess you could say that, but this isn't what I'm saying. Konrad already gave a great synopsis of the differences between what you're saying and what the texts mean when discussing these terms. That debilitated and weak are synonyms of each other isn't helpful to this discussion and does not further your point as they carry different qualitative meanings astrologically.

I completely understand your distinction though and am familiar with the concept. Youre saying that a planet whos weak in being able to do good, may not be weak in being able to do bad.

No, I'm not saying that, but I'm glad you brought that up. There are three ways planets are debilitated; weakness, incapability, and misfortune. While similar, each one has different qualitative meaning that makes them all unique. Weakness is about a planet's strength to bring about what it shows (whether a lot or a little), this is typically shown by house placement. Capability is whether a planet is able to get what it promises done. Misfortune is about whether that stuff is positive or negative. These three things give us eight different mixtures. We could have a strong, capable, fortunate planet (which brings about a lot of good things, completely) or a strong, incapable, misfortune (who introduces a lot of bad things incompletely).

To clarify, no one here is saying that retrograde planets aren't debilitated. We're merely making the distinction that retrograde planets are not weak, they are incapable. This is why some retrograde planets mess things up more for some people than they do for others; because they are more prominent (thus, strong) in those charts.

The Ram
11-03-2014, 09:02 PM
Yes, I am misunderstanding that because it is the exact opposite of how classical astrology delineates charts. Here, we aren't discussing if retrograde planets are weak for people, but if retrograde motion makes planets weak. The answer to both of those questions is based on the context of the chart

Im discussing that retrograde planets are considered weak by most traditionalists. Youre free to discuss what you want.

I delineate charts for people, elections and events. Youre free to do things however you like. But dont act like youre an authority on on how every single astrologer on the planet did things before the 1700s, if you were youd have better things to do with your life than trying to win arguments with me on this forum.

I guess you could say that, but this isn't what I'm saying. Konrad already gave a great synopsis of the differences between what you're saying and what the texts mean when discussing these terms. That debilitated and weak are synonyms of each other isn't helpful to this discussion and does not further your point as they carry different qualitative meanings astrologically.

Synonym by definition means the same word or very similar. Synonyms synonym would be equivalent or equal to.

The fact that the 2 words are synonyms of each other is helpful to the discussion. As you state that debilitated does not equal weak. This has been emphatically proven false by the english language itself as shown by me.

Sorry I speak english, I have little interest in a revisionist history project on our language to make astrology even more confusing for new comers. I speak english as it was intended and will continue to do so here, you can modify it to your hearts content, but dont expect everyone to drink your kool aid. Thus again I say that the vast majority of traditionalists consider a retrograde planet to be in a weakened, or debilitated state.



No, I'm not saying that, but I'm glad you brought that up. There are three ways planets are debilitated; weakness, incapability, and misfortune. While similar, each one has different qualitative meaning that makes them all unique. Weakness is about a planet's strength to bring about what it shows (whether a lot or a little), this is typically shown by house placement. Capability is whether a planet is able to get what it promises done. Misfortune is about whether that stuff is positive or negative. These three things give us eight different mixtures. We could have a strong, capable, fortunate planet (which brings about a lot of good things, completely) or a strong, incapable, misfortune (who introduces a lot of bad things incompletely).

To clarify, no one here is saying that retrograde planets aren't debilitated. We're merely making the distinction that retrograde planets are not weak, they are incapable. This is why some retrograde planets mess things up more for some people than they do for others; because they are more prominent (thus, strong) in those charts.
Definition of debilitated according to dictionary.com:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debilitate


"To make weak or feeble"

Youve admitted now that yourself and other traditionalists here consider a retrograde planet to be debilitated, now by the very definition of debilitated itself that means that its also by definition considered weak according to the english language.

I have a vocabulary thats been tested and is higher than most lawyers and that was when I was just a teen, so i guess I take that for granted, clearly not everyone will have the same grasp of the language as I do. But nevertheless, I do feel that its important to use it with precision so as to be clear to new comers.

I speak and will continue to speak english here, but if you want to butcher and modify the language feel free.

The Ram
11-03-2014, 09:14 PM
Lilly obtained information from ancient astrological texts
he was fortunate to have access to a well stocked library
Perhaps you would benefit from reading the same ancient authors Lilly read
paticularly since today we have access to BENJAMIN DYKES great translations http://www.bendykes.com/

Considering that I have about 200 books on this subject including about a dozen of dykes I think Im doing alright. In a recent interview dykes said he was going to do translations of texts on astrologicsl magic, really looking forward to that! Good luck with your reading though.

Btw youve posted this same post a couple of times in a row now, which reminds me that ive never seen you post an original thought on this forum. Are you sure its not Saturn thats in your ascendant?

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-03-2014, 10:13 PM
TheRam,

Again, quoting the dictionary isn't going to make this more clear to you, but it's become quite clear that you have no intention of actually accepting any information or exploring sources that are presented to you. You would much rather insult people unprovoked and read the dictionary. This is not an issue of proper English (however unrelated of an argument that is) but of reinforcing proper terminology. You can argue that synonyms are the same and can be used interchangeably but jargon need not conform to debateable language rules.

No one on this thread has argued that retrograde planets are not debilitated (which is why it doesn't matter if debilitated and weak are synonyms), but merely attempted to distinguish the qualitative differences between medieval ideas of weakness, incapability, and misfortune and the effects these have on planets and the things they signify. You can find more information about these in Introduction to Traditional Astrology and its source texts The Greater Introduction by Abu Mashar and Introduction to the Science of Astrology by al-Qabisi. The rest of the Persian astrologers cover it as well (Masha'allah, Sahl) but that is probably unnecessary.

The Ram
11-03-2014, 10:29 PM
I understand the distinction you make completely and have shown that understanding. i own introduction by dykes and the greater introduction by abu mashar. I dont need to read them again to grasp a concept I already understand and have understood for awhile.

You guys have been condescending, trying to tell me what I know and dont know based off me saying that most traditionalists consider a retrograde planet to be weak. Yet you all consider it to be debilitated.

Again the word debilitated by definition means to make weak. My statement is emphatically correct according to the english language and your own words have confirmed that. Im sorryfor using the kanguage as it was intended, instead of whatever variation you guys are using.

JUPITERASC
11-04-2014, 12:20 AM
Lol youre welcome to delete my post if wilson has granted you the priviledge. Otherwise if you really want to talk about meaningless posts then your attempt at policing mine would most fall under thatcategory in this thread.

Though youve highlighted nicely my biggest issue with this sub forum,

that essentially ppl will get up in arms

if you try to say anything here that hasnt already been said

by someone else hundreds of years ago.


Clearly you disapprove of the TRADITIONAL nature of traditional astrology
essentially you shall find this inhibits your understanding
of traditional methods :smile:

JUPITERASC
11-04-2014, 12:29 AM
Considering that I have about 200 books on this subject

including about a dozen of dykes

I think Im doing alright.

In a recent interview dykes said he was going to do translations of texts on astrologicsl magic, really looking forward to that! Good luck with your reading though.

Btw youve posted this same post a couple of times in a row now, which reminds me that ive never seen you post an original thought on this forum. Are you sure its not Saturn thats in your ascendant?

So you say you

'have about a dozen books by Dykes'

and yet you just said you have not read ITA for a while now as you have no need to :smile:



I already mentioned one, Lilly who gives it a -5 debility, which as I previously clarified to those who were unaware a debility is a synonym for weakness. So Lilly for one agrees with my asessment.:happy:

Dont feel like pulling more books out to prove what ive already proven,

too busy reading other books.

And nah I havnt read an Introduction by Dykes in awhile now.

I dont need to,

as I stated correctly that being retrograde is considered by most traditionalists to be a weakness whos synonym= debility. :tongue:

For someone with Jupiter in the ascendant dont you think this arguement is a little small? Ive got better things to do with my time.Im sorry, if you dont.

dhundhun
11-04-2014, 12:56 AM
Let me explain in layman's language.

1. A Mercury retrograde can make a person introvert. Person thinks a lot before expressing. Many times it could lead to confused expression to weak voice to stammering expression.

2. Effect of retrograde planet remains throughout life.

HOWEVER,
3. In progression, when Mercury becomes stationary, that time brain works the best. It could be thought as best time for studying and appearing in written examination. People do excel in tests.

4. In progression, when Mercury reaches to its own position, one can start expressing, whatever gained during retrograde to stationary to coming to its own point. Often the knowledge gained is quite valuable.

BUT --- Many times as mentioned above #2 remains active - keeping person introvert.

5. By nature, a person with Mercury retrograde will best learning or expressing during Mercury retrograde transits. They can't cope with higher rate of information flow happening during Mercury direct.

=============
6. In real world, triple transit of Mercury is very much helpful - for example three phases - proposals, negotiations and closing deals.

The Ram
11-04-2014, 08:29 PM
So you say you

'have about a dozen books by Dykes'

and yet you just said you have not read ITA for a while now as you have no need to :smile:


Yes. And your point is?

The Ram
11-04-2014, 08:44 PM
Clearly you disapprove of the TRADITIONAL nature of traditional astrology
essentially you shall find this inhibits your understanding
of traditional methods :smile:

Not at all. I dissapprove if anything of some of the members here who attack other peoples posts. Though I do understand the fact that these members mean well and are just a little misguided.

My understanding of traditional methods is just fine, The concept you guys attempted to explain using poor english in this thread for instance I knew and understood before even reading it in a book. It came to me organically just by thinking a little bit. Mercury trine Uranus...

tsmall
11-05-2014, 05:56 AM
.Not at all. I dissapprove if anything of some of the members here who attack other peoples posts. Though I do understand the fact that these members mean well and are just a little misguided.

My understanding of traditional methods is just fine, The concept you guys attempted to explain using poor english in this thread for instance I knew and understood before even reading it in a book. It came to me organically just by thinking a little bit. Mercury trine Uranus...

Ram, I am happy for you that what you perceive of the tradition works for YOU. Notice though, that you have gotten pushback from pretty much all of the traditional astrologers here (and no support from any) about how you perceive the tradition? That is because astrology is, indeed, a language. Your understanding of traditional methods may be just fine for you, but it is not an understanding of traditional methods. English is not the original language that was used in these ancient texts, and at best is very shaky when it comes to understanding what who meant what when he said what he said in Greek, Aramaic, Arabic, or what have you.

We members are not misguided. We members who have "pushed back" have read the translations of the original texts, compared them to the later astrologers, and been able to understand that while language is everything, language in context is EVERYTHING. You said earlier in this thread...


You guys have been condescending, trying to tell me what I know and dont know based off me saying that most traditionalists consider a retrograde planet to be weak. Yet you all consider it to be debilitated.

Right, we consider a planet to be debilitated in some way, but not necessarily weak, because while those words, to you, may have similar connotations, they don't in the tradition. And to the bolded part?

Now youre trying to argue that a retrograde planet isn't considered weaker by most traditionalists. Lol.....ok. Ill end this here. Youve told me all I needed to know about your perspective on this matter. Good luck to you in your studies.

Who, exactly, was being condescending there?

You postulated your opinion of the source material, and received feedback that your interpretation of the source material was incorrect. Instead of trying to engage in dialogue about your understanding of the source material, and why you received the "push-back" you chose to instead presume that your, and only your, understanding was correct and the rest of us are attacking you and subsequently "misguided."

I'm not much of one to feed trolls. If you are sincere in trying to understand what the collective "we" of the traditional representation at AW are trying to teach you, then I'm all for continuing the conversation until you at least understand the basis of the hypothesis before choosing to deride it. If you are just looking to pick a fight because you think you know everything there is to know...then I'm out. I don't care to have a battle of wits with unarmed persons.

The Ram
11-06-2014, 08:05 PM
Youll notice that I dont care whether Ive recieved a pushback here from members who have been emphatically proven wrong. I understand that being a Libra peer approval is important to you. For me however its of secondary importance to stating the truth.

I also understand that most online forums are essentially like high school, with various cliques. Needless to say this does not upset me.

right we consider a planet to be debilitated in some way but not necasarrily weak

Meaning of the word debilitated according to dictionary.com

"to make weak"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debilitate

Your statement is an oxymoron. If you dont understand what the term oxymoron means, it means that your statement is self contradictory.

You say that a debilitated planet may not be weak. This statement contradicts itself according to the english language as debilitated by definition means to make weak.

You and the young man with the anime character avatar have both agreed with my original asessment now, in that most traditionalists consider a rx planet to be a weakness.

The apparent division lies in the fact that you dont consider the term debilitated to necassarily imply weakness. Well I would disagree with that view and the English language itself agrees with my stance there as well. Once more:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debilitate

You are now arguing that I should use a composite of various languages arabic, latin, greek etc on a primarily english speaking online forum. No I cannot do this. This is an international forum and english isnt everyones first language here, in the interest of being clear to newcomers I believe its best to use the english language in a precise way so that if there is confusion they can look up the words individually and get the meaning and thus have clarification as opposed to even more confusion, as would be the case if members use words in a way that contradicts the meanings of said words by their very definitions.

Debilitated by definition means to make weak, you people saying that it doesnt mean thatis only going to confuse newcomers.

You say that I dont have an understanding of traditional methods? Your opinion of my understanding means very little to me.

JUPITERASC
11-06-2014, 10:11 PM
Not at all. I dissapprove if anything of some of the members here
who attack other peoples posts. Though I do understand the fact that these members mean well
and are just a little misguided.

My understanding of traditional methods is just fine,

you seem to feel attacked
but members are simply explaining tradtional concepts to you
and this is the traditional subforum
where traditional concepts are important

you apparently mean well
although seem somewhat misguided



The concept you guys attempted to explain using poor english in this thread for instance



The English explanations used in this thread are far from 'poor'
but your understanding
of tradtional concepts
requires revision and further study


I knew and understood before even reading it in a book.
It came to me organically just by thinking a little bit.
Mercury trine Uranus...


modern planet Uranus is of no consequence on the traditional subforum :smile:
simply because
according to the rules
Traditional Astrology subforum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only.

Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700
by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras.

Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction

and exludes modern planets
Neptune,
Uranus
and
Pluto

non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.
The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread
in an appropriate forum for further discussion.

JUPITERASC
11-06-2014, 10:39 PM
The OP has asked 'what happens AFTER Mercury in Retrograde ends?'

The answer is that after Mercury Retrograde ends
then
Mercury returns to DIRECT MOTION :smile:

The Mercury retrograde cycle lasts eight weeks
and occurs three times annually
and also
occasionally four times in a particular year

Larxene
11-07-2014, 05:28 AM
Hello Apartofme,

I don't know much about retrogradation. Based on what I read in the Hellenistic texts, the common phrase used to describe a retrograde planet is "if the planet is subtractive in numbers." Most of the descriptions of the effects of retrogradation are negative, but it is not clear in what way is retrogradation a negative indication. To me, I still cannot clearly differentiate how a "bad" effect by a retrograde planet is different from a negative effect from a badly placed malefic (like Saturn or Mars).

The ancient authors that I have read also did not treat it as a big problem that requires its own section. Their treatment of it is often like, "...and by the way, retrograde planets also cause these bad things."

Interestingly, there are two situations in Dorotheus of Sidon's fifth book where a retrograde planet can actually be "good". These two cases are: when a slave ran away from his master, and when some goods or belongings has been stolen from their owner. If the significator of the slave or thief is retrograde (usually lord of the Ascendant), it is a sign of the slave returning to his master or the thief returning to the area where he stole the goods, all things being equal.

However, this is a matter of perspective. For the master, if he wants the slave or goods back, it's good for him. On the other hand, it may not be good for the slave/thief, as they may face retribution. It is however, not 100% a certainty that the slave/thief will be punished, and Dorotheus says that this depends on the applying and separating aspects of the signficator...and the Moon, I believe. So retrogradation technically is neither good nor bad here, it depends on who's asking: the master or the slave/thief.

Nonetheless, usually when we look at a birth chart, we would talk about whether things are good or bad for the person born during that time, date and place. This is signified by the Ascendant and its lord. If we take the same perspective for electional charts (as in the case with the slave/thief), then we would be asking whether retrogradation is good or bad for the slave/thief, because they are ALSO signified by the Ascendant and its lord.

Even from this angle, we still can't conclude whether being retrograde is good or bad, because it depends on the aspects of the significator. Retrogradation alone doesn't seem to indicate a negative outcome.



However, we can extract something from this. Based on what I've read so far, the Greeks/Hellenistics come across as being quite literal when it comes to astrology. I can't explain this at the moment, maybe some time in the future I will be able to express it. But practically speaking, since a retrograde planet is described as "subtractive in numbers", we can guess that it signifies reversals. Things signified by a retrograde planet reverses.

This would explain the two examples in Dorotheus of Sidon. The lord of the Ascendant, when signifying the slave or the thief and is retrograde, shows that the slave/thief "walks backwards" and retraces his steps. He reverses his efforts at running away.


This also explains why Robert Schmidt (translator of many Hellenistic books), in his naval metaphor technique, doesn't allow any retrograde planets to be the Kurios. For those who are unfamiliar with this term, it basically refers to the planet who drives the ship you are in to a specific destination. The ship is a metaphor of a person's life.

Basically, this metaphor asserts that we have a destination we are supposed to go, and the Kurios manipulates the wind (in Ancient Greece there were no engines yet) to get you to your destination. For example, if the desired place is due North, the Predominator (either Sun, Moon or Ascendant) will "summon" the wind that comes from the South (associated with either the fire or water signs) and blow you in the Northern direction.

Now what happens if the Kurios, the one moving the ship, is retrograde? After moving north for awhile, he'll try to move south instead, in the opposite direction! The captain keeps telling him to go North, and yet the Kurios keeps going South! As a result, you can't get to where you want to go.



Maybe it's my imagination, I don't know. In my own experience, I have seen this reversal effect more prominently during some Mercury retrograde periods. Most of the time, it's just a minor annoyance. You just have to re-do the things that got reversed, maybe more than once.

After it's over, what happens? Well, things associated with Mercury won't reverse as often, depending on the individual's chart.



Hope this helped,

Larxene Xenohart

Konrad
11-07-2014, 06:27 AM
Without getting involved in this quagmire, I'd like to point out for those reading that the English being used to describe astrological techniques is based upon a Latin translation of an Arabic translation of a Greek text made over almost a thousand years; it is inevitable that nuances of meaning will be lost. It would be much more beneficial to take a Greek or Arabic lexicon and examine the words in the relevant texts.

EDIT: as an example, let's consider the Arabic consonantal root SHM. Used as a noun astrologically it means, "Lot" or "Part" as in the "Lot of Fortune". It literally means arrow, but according to the lexicon, is connected with a game where one throws out or casts lots. This describes the function and calculation the lots perfectly; the function is that they show outcomes of topics or those things relying on mechanics outside of the native's control, and in their calculation they are figured from the distance between two points and then cast out from the ASC, or more rarely, a third point.

The Latin word is pars which means a portion, share or allotment. It still has conotations of one getting one's due, or being given something, and even though through that we can still deduce that this is something that occurs outside of the native's power, that is a little more tenuous and is only something we can be sure of after knowing the meaning of the initial concept.

The Latin word is translated into English as "Part" and means almost the same as the Latin word but has little of the conotations of the Latin and nothing of the Arabic. In fact, compared to the Arabic, it seems almost lifeless. From it alone, we would be hard-pressed to say anything of the Lots other than they inhabit divisions of the zodiac i.e. specific degrees.

Larxene
11-08-2014, 12:53 AM
@Konrad:

Yes, we do need to check the source text using a foreign dictionary sometimes. I forgot to mention that I got the phrase from Valens' books, Schmidt translation. I'm not sure if it's only in one place, but I have a feeling I saw it several times, and also from Dorotheus, though I can't find it right now. Riley's translation simply uses the phrase 'retrograde motion.'

"Similarly also if the lord of the Acquisition himself is subtracting in numbers..."

- The Anthology, Schmidt trans., Book II, p. 45.



Larxene Xenohart

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-08-2014, 01:23 AM
Hi Larxene,

Are you sure that the phrase "subtracting in numbers" is referring to retrograde planets? I do agree that this conclusion makes sense. The reason I ask, though, is because the medieval tradition calls a different phenomenon "decreasing/increasing in number" which relates to a planet's position or movement within its epicycle. I understand that epicycles weren't used until after the time of Ptolemy, so I'm not arguing that this is what the Hellenistic authors meant by that phrase, merely pointing out an interesting shift in terminology.

Youll notice that I dont care whether Ive recieved a pushback here from members who have been emphatically proven wrong.

Emphatically proven wrong in an argument that was never made? How did I get myself into such a sticky situation?

This is the last thing I will say about this, and I apologize, Konrad for the quagmire that has resulted and that I am likely to stir up again.

Let us assume for a moment that this thread wasn't about the effects of retrograde planets, but the effects of planets in their exaltation.

Someone asks "How does a planet in their exaltation operate?"

And you respond "Well, a planet in exaltation is traditionally thought of as dignified, and dignified planets do such-and-such."

Someone responds to this say "Yes, but exaltation is a subtype of dignity that has its own qualitative effects and operates differently than other types of dignity. You can dig into this by looking at XYZ source"

You respond by proclaiming "No, the dictionary says that exalted and dignified are synonyms as you can see here (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/exalted), thus they mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably! Simple English! I require no astrological text, because I already completely understand, it is you who are misguided!"

Responding to this, they say "Sure, but astrologically they carry different meanings that prevent them from being used interchangeably. You are correct in saying exaltation is a form of dignity, but you are not using the terms completely accurately."

Then you proclaim victory by saying "So you agree that exaltation is a form of dignity!"

Much in the same way that exaltation is a form of dignity with its own meanings that differentiate it from, say, Face or Term, incapability is a form of debility that has its own meanings that differentiate it from weakness or corruption/misfortune.

Konrad
11-08-2014, 06:58 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi,

yes, really that's the crux of it. We can say that a retrograde planet is debilitated and we can say that a planet in fall is debilitated, but we should be aware that they mean very different behaviours for the planets. This is why I would like to change my own vocabulary when talking of this sort of thing. We are in a very unique position historically wherein we can see almost the whole of horoscopic astrology as a whole thus we can track back misunderstandings and innovations and either correct or verify them. Lilly's table of scores is one such thing that either needs to be explained more explicitly than Lilly did, or discarded for a more nuanced view.

tsmall
11-09-2014, 12:18 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi,

yes, really that's the crux of it. We can say that a retrograde planet is debilitated and we can say that a planet in fall is debilitated, but we should be aware that they mean very different behaviours for the planets. This is why I would like to change my own vocabulary when talking of this sort of thing. We are in a very unique position historically wherein we can see almost the whole of horoscopic astrology as a whole thus we can track back misunderstandings and innovations and either correct or verify them. Lilly's table of scores is one such thing that either needs to be explained more explicitly than Lilly did, or discarded for a more nuanced view.

Konrad, I couldn't agree more with this post. It really is a quagmire that traps students until they are able to differentiate between those nuances in word usage. Debilitated, impeded, weak, strong, dignified, unfortunate...all are words used in every text. It isn't until the student studies the differences in planetary behavior in each situation that it really starts to gel.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. You helped me at least try to clarify my thoughts, and clearly did a better job explaining.

Larxene
11-09-2014, 07:26 AM
Hi Kai and everyone else.

Hi Larxene,

Are you sure that the phrase "subtracting in numbers" is referring to retrograde planets? I do agree that this conclusion makes sense. The reason I ask, though, is because the medieval tradition calls a different phenomenon "decreasing/increasing in number" which relates to a planet's position or movement within its epicycle. I understand that epicycles weren't used until after the time of Ptolemy, so I'm not arguing that this is what the Hellenistic authors meant by that phrase, merely pointing out an interesting shift in terminology.

At first, I also thought it meant something else. There's a similar but opposite phrase "increasing in numbers" in Dorotheus (though as Konrad noted, that text is potentially corrupted), which I believe refers to a planet having above average velocity, in other words, fast. So, I thought "subracting in numbers" meant a slow planet.

But according to Schmidt's footnote, it means retrograde. Riley also translated that passage the same way, although he opted to just use the translation "in retrograde motion".

I don't know. My understanding is only as good as the translators! Unfortunately I can't read Greek and/or Latin yet.



Kaiousei no Senshi,

...This is why I would like to change my own vocabulary when talking of this sort of thing...Lilly's table of scores is one such thing that either needs to be explained more explicitly than Lilly did, or discarded for a more nuanced view.

I concur. I wasn't going to mention anything, but I guess you encouraged me. :)

Regarding the dignities, Maternus implied that domicile and exaltation are two different dignities. My impression based on Bram and Holden's translations is that an exalted planet is like gold that has been refined so well that it contains almost no impurity. An exalted planet is excellent at what it naturally manifests or sympathises with (depending on whether you're looking at it from a Hermetic or Neo-platonic worldview). Nothing is said about domicile lords, except that they seem to simply be like an administrator of the houses that their signs are in.

Maternus also contradicted the tables of calculating Almuten(m?), as he said that planets in their exaltations (sign/degree?) are better than planets in their domiciles.

In Lilly's table, trigon lords seem to have lower dignity than domicile and exaltation rulers. But then, when one reads Valens and Dorotheus, one realises that trigon lords are in charge of different things, namely they seem to rule specific periods of the topics they are in charge of, and some other things. This is NOT how domicile or exaltation works, as far as I am aware.

So, when we try to "add" the dignities while ignoring the subtleties, something like this occurs:

- Planet A is in its Domicile and Bounds, 5+2=7
- Planet B is in its Exaltation and Trigon, 3+4=7

- Ergo, planet A and B are both equally dignified! A=B, Q.E.D.


:) Well...






http://s22.postimg.org/ms0dnzsm9/Image.png





Now, I'm not saying Lilly is wrong to add dignities and debilities, but I think there is a need for context in such calculations.

I think the almuten table is supposed to be interpreted in specific ways, and cannot be generalised into a universal way of evaluating planets. Each planet has its own specialised role in any given chart, having authority over specific areas of life. No planet will deal with every aspect of life. In the same way, domicile lords may have a greater say in one situation, but in another situation it may be a trigon lord that takes precedence.


Sorry for ranting. I am just kind of emo right now.



Larxene Xenohart

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-09-2014, 04:55 PM
Lilly's table of scores is one such thing that either needs to be explained more explicitly than Lilly did, or discarded for a more nuanced view.

Now, I'm not saying Lilly is wrong to add dignities and debilities, but I think there is a need for context in such calculations.

Now this is a conversation we can have some fun with.

Lilly's scores for the essential dignities (aside from his error in giving dignity to planets in mutual reception) comes from as far back as Umar al-Tabari and his method for calculating the almuten. However, Umar's point assignments are slightly different, Term gets three and Triplicity gets two. Lilly has this the other way around, but he is at least joined in this by Ezra in his calculations for the Almuten of the Figure.

Where the rest of the point assignments come from, though, I have no idea. Clearly I have not read the entirety of the classical corpus, so I do still have some leads to look into. Has anyone read Al-Biruni or Al-Kindi's texts? Those may be my last hold outs.

JUPITERASC
11-09-2014, 07:23 PM
Now this is a conversation we can have some fun with.

We have been Sirius for too long :smile:


Lilly's scores for the essential dignities (aside from his error in giving dignity to planets in mutual reception)
comes from as far back as Umar al-Tabari and his method for calculating the almuten.

However, Umar's point assignments are slightly different, Term gets three and Triplicity gets two.
Lilly has this the other way around,
but he is at least joined in this by Ezra in his calculations for the Almuten of the Figure.

Where the rest of the point assignments come from, though, I have no idea.
Clearly I have not read the entirety of the classical corpus, so I do still have some leads to look into.
Has anyone read Al-Biruni or Al-Kindi's texts?
Those may be my last hold outs.


QUOTE

'.....The dignities have a certain order of precedence.
Most important is the lordship of a house, next, exaltation, then, term, then, triplicity, lastly, face;
and so a certain scale of numbers has been assigned to them
viz 5 to the house, 4 to exaltation, 3 to term, 2 to triplicity and 1 to face.
The dignities of the various planets may then be added up and compared with each other, so as to see which is pre-eminent.


It is related that an authority on this subject
assigns 30 to the lordship,
20 to exaltation,
10 to lordship of face,
5 to that of term,
3 to that of triplicity
4 to that of the hour,
and finally to the sun or moon, whichever is lord of time, as much as to the lordship of the ascendant.
The figures are then added and compared.
This is the practice of the astrologers of Babylon and Persia,
who regard the lordship of the face as very important.


But among the astrologers of the present day,
the triplicity is regarded as having precedence over term and face,
and indeed the latter is often considered of no account.
Further, in certain circumstances, changes may take place in this order,
e.g. the lord of the exaltation may take precedence over the lord of the house in matters of empire and government in high places.

It is necessary to know that these dignities are strengthened by aspect,
or by other conditions which replace aspect,
because if the numbers of two planets add up equal,
one of which is in aspect and the other inconjunct, the former is preferred
even if its favourable positions and testimonies amount to less of those than the latter......' AL BIRUNI


by the way, AL BIRUNI's text on DIGNITY is ancient
and
therefore not subject to copyright

Kaiousei no Senshi
11-13-2014, 01:13 PM
It is related that an authority on this subject
assigns 30 to the lordship,
20 to exaltation,
10 to lordship of face,
5 to that of term,
3 to that of triplicity
4 to that of the hour,


So much for finding almutens!

Apartofme
11-23-2014, 09:35 PM
You have posted your enquiry on the Traditional area of our forum
and
Traditionally, the 'Law of Attraction' and 'past life soulmates'
are not the province of Traditional astrology

by the way
Traditionally
HELLENISTIC astrologers vividly described any retrograde planet as 'walking backwards'
and
therefore
unable to adequately act :smile:

I'm still extremely new here and unfamiliar with this forum (if it's not obvious) so excuse me.

findsny
01-31-2015, 01:26 AM
Hi!
I need to sign a contract for a new job offer on the table, with an employer i worked for from 2006-2009. Its a great opportunity to advance my career professionally and financially. They want the contract signed by Monday. Ive already gone back and forth with revisions and it is finally at a state that my lawyer feels comfortable with me signing. I know I am not supposed to sign during Mercury retrograde. Thoughts?

tsmall
01-31-2015, 01:32 AM
Hi!
I need to sign a contract for a new job offer on the table, with an employer i worked for from 2006-2009. Its a great opportunity to advance my career professionally and financially. They want the contract signed by Monday. Ive already gone back and forth with revisions and it is finally at a state that my lawyer feels comfortable with me signing. I know I am not supposed to sign during Mercury retrograde. Thoughts?

Sign it. Mercury retrograde is the best time to go back to a previous employer, and if your lawyer thinks it's ok, then go for it.

cspencer
06-06-2015, 05:04 AM
Mercury is about to go direct (again) in a few days. We'll see what happens.

tsmall
06-06-2015, 02:36 PM
Mercury is about to go direct (again) in a few days. We'll see what happens.

I for one have enjoyed this particular Mercury rx. SR ruler stations in domicile on 9th cusp and all kinds of cool 9th house people have been re-appearing. :smile:

JUPITERASC
06-06-2015, 02:52 PM
Sign it. Mercury retrograde is the best time to go back to a previous employer,
and if your lawyer thinks it's ok, then go for it.

That hinges on IF said lawyer has found ALL potential contractual 'flaws'
and there's no way of checking that unless one is a lawyer :smile:


Mercury is about to go direct (again) in a few days. We'll see what happens.


Mercury goes direct Thursday 11 June
before
Mercury eventually returns to same degree location as Monday deadline of when contract was to be signed
i.e. Mercury returns to 8 Gemini on Monday 22 June
so keep us upadated findsny

tsmall
06-06-2015, 02:57 PM
That hinges on IF said lawyer has found ALL potential contractual 'flaws'
and there's no way of checking that unless one is a lawyer :smile:


Mercury goes direct Thursday 11 June
before
Mercury eventually returns to same degree location as Monday deadline of when contract was to be signed
i.e. Mercury returns to 8 Gemini on Monday 22 June
so keep us upadated findsny

findsny posted this question during the last Mercury rx...in January. And has not been back since. :whistling:

JUPITERASC
06-06-2015, 03:02 PM
findsny posted this question during the last Mercury rx...in January. And has not been back since. :whistling:

seems as if that lawyer found all the flaws then :smile:
I'm interested in an update
but am unlikely to get one
because findsny posted only two threads
one of which was on the read my chart forum
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=598541#post598541


Hi Sakti
9/9/1980, Jersey City NJ, USA, 10:44pm
Sign by this coming monday 2/2/2015
Thank you!


and interestingly received the following advice from a Sidereal VEDIC astrologer


Hi dear!
As per the details provided by u; your Mercury is not retrograde but exalted.
U may sign this agreement which turn out to be more beneficial for u in all angles.
Till march 8th, Maercury antardasha in rahu mahadasha is observed.
Ur zodiac is virgo. As per planetary transit, now Jupiter is in 11th house and Saturn is in 3rd house.
Your Sadesati Saturn was ended. So this will be a very highly fortunate period in your life.
You will get better opportunities which helps u to reach great heights.

Gud luck!

regards,
Sakti

tsmall
06-06-2015, 03:50 PM
JUPITERASC, you wouldn't be posting Vedic delineations in the traditional forum, now would you? :surprised:

JUPITERASC
06-06-2015, 03:58 PM
JUPITERASC, you wouldn't be posting Vedic delineations in the traditional forum, now would you? :surprised:


We definitely need a Traditional Vedic subforum :smile: