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charliestars
10-11-2014, 01:26 PM
Hi

I have been trying to establish the condition of Mercury in my Natal chart and was wondering if somebody would be willing to assist me in understanding the synastry of it all a little better.

I have Mercury in Sagittarius which I have come to learn is in detriment. This as I understand it puts Mercury in its most vulnerable position. Now dont laugh:w00t:, but in addition to that it is also in opposition to Saturn in Gemini and is 4 deg 40 min from the Sun, resulting in it being "combust".

I have been searching for criteria that might strengthen or be of assistance to Mercury. I have discovered a few things and am not quite sure about the collective overall condition they leave Mercury in.

So far I have established that

Mercury has dignity in terms of the planets

Mercury is in Mutual reception with Jupiter in Aquarius as far as triplicity is concerned. That is if I am interpreting it correctly. Mercury is the nocturnal ruler of Aquarius and Jupiter is the nocturnal ruler of Sagittarius. These two planets have exchanged places with each other and therefore I assume that there is a mutual reception between them.

Is this a correct assumption of me? and does this relationship help strengthen a Mercury in detriment in any way?

Jupiter is also the dispositor of Mercury in Sagittarius and the sextile aspect connecting them is that of a harmonious nature. I have not been able to as of yet determine if this helps the debilitated state of Mercury at all. The way I see it is, Jupiter is welcoming Mercury in his house by the harmonious aspect that connects them. Is this correct ?

Mars has essential dignity and is connected to Mercury via a semi sextile aspect. This I have read is a neutral aspect, I have also read however that it is a weak but beneficial aspect. This leaves me at an indecision to whether or not Mars is of any assistance to Mercury.

Saturn which is in opposition to Mercury is dignified by terms of planets. I have not found any literature to how that affects its opposition aspect to Mercury, is it better or worse for Mercury or neutral ?

I have attached my chart and these are my planet placements.
Sun 11 Sag 23
Moon 24 Tau 48
Mercury 16 Sag 03
Venus 23 Sag 52
Mars 17 Sco 39
Jupiter 18 Aqu
Saturn 21 Gem 49

Any assistance with regards to this would really be helpful
Kind Regards
Charlie

tsmall
10-12-2014, 01:16 AM
Hi

I have been trying to establish the condition of Mercury in my Natal chart and was wondering if somebody would be willing to assist me in understanding the synastry of it all a little better.

You are using the sidereal zodiac. Are you trying to understand your chart using Vedic astrology, or are you interested in combining western astrology with the sidereal zodiac?

I have Mercury in Sagittarius which I have come to learn is in detriment. This as I understand it puts Mercury in its most vulnerable position. Now dont laugh:w00t:, but in addition to that it is also in opposition to Saturn in Gemini and is 4 deg 40 min from the Sun, resulting in it being "combust".

Peregrine in Sagittarius would be more "vulnerable." Cadent, in a bad house, aspected by malefics without help from benefics...there are many was to judge "vulnerability." As for Mercury's combustion in your chart, well, Mercury spends quite a bit of time every year combust. Is he applying or escaping? As to the opposition with Saturn, Mercury receives Saturn.

I have been searching for criteria that might strengthen or be of assistance to Mercury. I have discovered a few things and am not quite sure about the collective overall condition they leave Mercury in.

So far I have established that

Mercury has dignity in terms of the planets

I would be cautious of this because the terms (and which terms are you looking at?) are again largely associated with the tropical zodiac. That said, yes, Mercury is in his own terms, so not peregrine. He is also direct.

Mercury is in Mutual reception with Jupiter in Aquarius as far as triplicity is concerned. That is if I am interpreting it correctly. Mercury is the nocturnal ruler of Aquarius and Jupiter is the nocturnal ruler of Sagittarius.

Almost. More correctly Mercury is the nocturnal ruler of the Air triplicity and Jupiter is the nocturnal ruler of the fire triplicity. Of greater importance is that Jupiter receives Mercury by domicile.

These two planets have exchanged places with each other and therefore I assume that there is a mutual reception between them.

No. Mutual reception does not mean the planets have echanged places. This one idea has led to much confusion in understanding how reception works. Mercury is not suddenly going to find himself "as if" in Aquarius due to mutual reception. Mercury is where he is. Reception is about allowing. If a planet is received (and in aspect with his receiver) then that planet is allowed to carry out his duty to the level the reception permits.

Is this a correct assumption of me? and does this relationship help strengthen a Mercury in detriment in any way?

Describe what you mean by "strengthen." It does not grant Mercury any further dignity, if that is what you are asking.

Jupiter is also the dispositor of Mercury in Sagittarius and the sextile aspect connecting them is that of a harmonious nature.

In this case yes. The sextile has the nature of Venus, which is to say that the nature of the sextile is to reconcile and unify. It is not as stabalizing as the trine. And all aspects, including the so-called "harmonious" ones, have the ability to be not so nice.

I have not been able to as of yet determine if this helps the debilitated state of Mercury at all. The way I see it is, Jupiter is welcoming Mercury in his house by the harmonious aspect that connects them. Is this correct ?

Yes and no. Jupiter is welcoming Mercury into his house, but not via the aspect itself. The aspect only means Mercury can appeal for help directly to his ruler. Another way to look at what is happening here is to consider that Jupiter is welcoming a combust, detrimented Mercury into his house and has to allow him to do what he wants.

Mars has essential dignity and is connected to Mercury via a semi sextile aspect. This I have read is a neutral aspect, I have also read however that it is a weak but beneficial aspect. This leaves me at an indecision to whether or not Mars is of any assistance to Mercury.

Clasically we would say that this aspect would provide no help. Mars is in dignity but isn't regarding Mercury through a Ptolemaic aspect. Mars can't see Mercury, and because Mars does not receive Mercury he (Mars) is pretty much uninterested in Mercury.

Saturn which is in opposition to Mercury is dignified by terms of planets. I have not found any literature to how that affects its opposition aspect to Mercury, is it better or worse for Mercury or neutral ?

Saturn in Gemini is received by Mercury. So you have a retrograde Saturn mutually applying to an opposition with a detrimented and debilitated Mercury. Not only does Mercury receive Saturn, the greater malefic, into his house. This is not going to be helpful, especially since Saturn is almost at the oppositon to the Sun.

I have attached my chart and these are my planet placements.
Sun 11 Sag 23
Moon 24 Tau 48
Mercury 16 Sag 03
Venus 23 Sag 52
Mars 17 Sco 39
Jupiter 18 Aqu
Saturn 21 Gem 49

Any assistance with regards to this would really be helpful
Kind Regards
Charlie

The real question is what you are trying to determine of Mercury.

greybeard
10-12-2014, 03:08 AM
I guess you posted the same thing twice. I answered the other one.

charliestars
10-13-2014, 11:25 AM
Hi Tsmall

Thank you for replying to my post.

You are using the sidereal zodiac. Are you trying to understand your chart using Vedic astrology, or are you interested in combining western astrology with the sidereal zodiac?

Western sidereal astrology is what I am interested in.

Peregrine in Sagittarius would be more "vulnerable." Cadent, in a bad house, aspected by malefics without help from benefics...there are many was to judge "vulnerability." As for Mercury's combustion in your chart, well, Mercury spends quite a bit of time every year combust. Is he applying or escaping? As to the opposition with Saturn, Mercury receives Saturn.

How do I determine whether Mercury is applying or escaping ? and how does either effect Mercury ?

I would be cautious of this because the terms (and which terms are you looking at?) are again largely associated with the tropical zodiac. That said, yes, Mercury is in his own terms, so not peregrine. He is also direct.

The terms of planets I am using are indeed those of Ptolemy. It’s a good thing you pointed that out for me because I was unaware that they were calculated for the tropical zodiac. In fact I’ve referred to Ptolemy’s table of essential dignities for my other planets as well. With that being said, what would a Western Siderealist refer to instead of Ptolemy’s table of essential dignities then ??

No. Mutual reception does not mean the planets have echanged places. This one idea has led to much confusion in understanding how reception works. Mercury is not suddenly going to find himself "as if" in Aquarius due to mutual reception. Mercury is where he is. Reception is about allowing. If a planet is received (and in aspect with his receiver) then that planet is allowed to carry out his duty to the level the reception permits.

I dont quite understand what is meant by “the level the reception permits” could you possible expand a little more on that please ?

Describe what you mean by "strengthen." It does not grant Mercury any further dignity, if that is what you are asking.

Would the mutual reception aid a Mercury in detriment is what I was wondering I guess.

Yes and no. Jupiter is welcoming Mercury into his house, but not via the aspect itself. The aspect only means Mercury can appeal for help directly to his ruler. Another way to look at what is happening here is to consider that Jupiter is welcoming a combust, detrimented Mercury into his house and has to allow him to do what he wants.

How does Mercury appeal for help directly to his ruler ? could you please expand a little more on that and on what you mean by “Jupiter has to allow him to do what he wants”


Saturn in Gemini is received by Mercury. So you have a retrograde Saturn mutually applying to an opposition with a detrimented and debilitated Mercury. Not only does Mercury receive Saturn, the greater malefic, into his house. This is not going to be helpful, especially since Saturn is almost at the opposition to the Sun.

How does Saturn’s opposition aspect to the Sun effect Mercury ?

The real question is what you are trying to determine of Mercury.

I began trying to make sense of my natal chart by learning what keywords go with what planet, sign, house and aspect. I found out latter though that I should first determine the “power” of my planets, whether they are exalted, in detriment, in cadent or succedent houses ,etc because without that information I would not know how or if they would be able to “act” in the horoscope.

Mercury was the first planet I started with and immediately noticed it was in detriment. This naturally got my attention due to the fact that a few months ago I began putting a novel together (strangely enough it is of a religious nature) and as I have come to understand it Mercury governs communications, literary ability, self expression of all kinds and of course writing.

Therefore I was attempting to determine the condition of Mercury in my natal chart and when I discovered that its was in detriment and in opposition to Saturn I then also began to look for positives. With that being said I am looking to discover what factors in my natal chart effect Mercury positively and secondly how to intemperate them?

Thank you once again for replying to my post
Kind Regards
Charlie

tsmall
10-14-2014, 04:53 AM
Hi Tsmall

Thank you for replying to my post.

You're welcome.

Western sidereal astrology is what I am interested in.

Martin Gansten then would be your best bet to study/learn from, since he is a very well know traditional astrologer who uses the sidereal zodiac. I believe he's posted at skyscript. Here is a link.

http://www.martingansten.com/


How do I determine whether Mercury is applying or escaping ? and how does either effect Mercury ?

Most software programs will help you with this, as will an ephemeris such as

http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/d5ge1_2014.pdf

Are you familiar with the Chaldean order? It ties back to the heavenly spheres which the planets, signs and fixed stars occupy in relation to the Earth. The order also shows us which planets move slower than the others. From slowest to fastest, we have Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury and lastly Moon. The Moon moves swiftest of them all, but the reality is that the mean speed (or average speed) of the Sun, Mercury and Venus is actually the same. This can make it a bit difficult to determine if Venus or Mercury are applying to the Sun (or each other) or separating. There are times when Venus and/or Mercury will be moving faster or slower than each other and the Sun. If Mercury is moving faster than the Sun, in his direct motion in your chart, then Mercury is applying to combustion. Some astrolgers can tell simply by looking which is which. I'm not one of them. If you go back to astro.com where you made your chart, you can click on the "additional tables" pdf and get a report with tons of further information, not the least of which is the planetary speed. You will need to know what the average or normal speed of the planets is though in order to know if Mercury is applying to the Sun. Of the three (Sun, Mercury and Venus) the average speed is .9856. Figure out who is moving faster and that is how you know who is applying to, or separating from whom.

As to how either will affect Mercury, planets that are applying to combustion will behave differently and be weaker than planets who are escaping combustion. Occidentality and/or orientality will also affect planets' behavior and ability to fulfill their mission in the chart. The very best thing I could refer you to would be Introductions to Traditional Astrology, by Benjamin Dykes. Skip ahead to Book III. Though I caution you that this is not a book for beginners.



The terms of planets I am using are indeed those of Ptolemy. It’s a good thing you pointed that out for me because I was unaware that they were calculated for the tropical zodiac. In fact I’ve referred to Ptolemy’s table of essential dignities for my other planets as well. With that being said, what would a Western Siderealist refer to instead of Ptolemy’s table of essential dignities then ??

I am not a Western Siderealist, though I too explored the sideral zodiac when I first started. That said, most traditional astrologers, once they learn that Ptolemy pretty much made up his terms because those that came before him made no sense to him, use the Egyptian terms. I'd say to explore both the Egyptian and Chaldean terms if you are going to use the sideral zodiac.



I dont quite understand what is meant by “the level the reception permits” could you possible expand a little more on that please ?

Sure. Let's say someone selling something door to door knocks on a door, and a child of six answers. The seller is being received by triplicity only. That child of six doesn't really have the authority to buy what the seller is selling. It's like, um..."Yeah, I'd really like that, but I have to go ask my Mom first." The seller is received, but by a small margin. It is why for perfect reception later astrologers (especially in horary) wanted two minor receptions to perfect something. Because they wanted to see authority or ability to actually have a say in something. "Let me ask my manager" just doesn't sound promising in a negotiation.

This is kind of where the idea of Almutens came from. The planet that has the most dignity over a point in the chart is the victor, or "mubtazz" of that place. As in, the final say or authority.



Would the mutual reception aid a Mercury in detriment is what I was wondering I guess.

In this case, yes, because Jupiter receives Mercury by domicile. Meaning Jupiter is like the wise elder trying to tell Mercury something, and with even a teeny bit of MR, Mercury is likely to listen instead of saying, thanks, but no thanks. I'm going to go ahead and get that full face tattoo and then think I can get a job as a Wall Street guru.



How does Mercury appeal for help directly to his ruler ? could you please expand a little more on that and on what you mean by “Jupiter has to allow him to do what he wants”

Being received is only part of the equation. Being in aspect, or able to see your ruler/receiver is more important. If the received planet is not in a place that can "regard" or "see" the dispositor or ruler by Ptolemaic aspect, then what we have is generosity. As in, "yeah, I feel ya brah, but I can't really see what you are going through and do something for ya." So in this case, Mercury is appealing directly to his domicile ruler by applying aspect...as in asking with testimony, as opposed to a separating aspect which would imply an active disregard for a connection that previously existed.

As for reception being about allowing, well. Jupiter owns Sagittarius, and is renting it out to Mercury. At that point, Jupiter is really in a bind, because he doesn't have any control over what Mercury will do. Will he trash the place and throw drug parties that make the cops show up? Or will he be like the best tenant ever? Who knows? Astrologers do, if they are able to assess the total condition of Mercury..and here's a hint. His dignity or lack of it ain't the least of it.




How does Saturn’s opposition aspect to the Sun effect Mercury ?

Because Saturn opposed the Sun will color Saturn in a really unhealthy way, and Mercury's next aspect is to Saturn...though the Sun gets there first.



I began trying to make sense of my natal chart by learning what keywords go with what planet, sign, house and aspect. I found out latter though that I should first determine the “power” of my planets, whether they are exalted, in detriment, in cadent or succedent houses ,etc because without that information I would not know how or if they would be able to “act” in the horoscope.

Yeah, me too. Then I realized that I needed to figure out a bunch of other stuff first.


Therefore I was attempting to determine the condition of Mercury in my natal chart and when I discovered that its was in detriment and in opposition to Saturn I then also began to look for positives. With that being said I am looking to discover what factors in my natal chart effect Mercury positively and secondly how to intemperate them?

Affect. Not effect, though both could apply. There are postives, but you really (dang I wish someone had actually told me this in the first place, instead of driving me crazy with the "you are way too novice to learn this stuff", or "learn this or that, it's easier", or, just take the cook books at face value and get over it...) have to go through it all to be able to go through it all.

What it boils down to is how competent is Mercury in your chart to be able to actually do something about the houses he rules? And if he can't do it, does he have resources he can rely on to acutally bumble his way through it? And if not, well then, are there other factors in the chart that can make up for Mercury's ineptitude? No? Well, then how can we find a way around Mercury to get where we need to go?

Dignity and fortitude are not the same thing. Dignity is what a planet is "born with." Fortitude is what it has the strength (by house placement) to do. The aspects from the other planets will help or hinder.

Thank you once again for replying to my post
Kind Regards
Charlie

Again, you are welcome.

charliestars
10-14-2014, 10:20 AM
Hi Tsmall

Martin Gansten then would be your best bet to study/learn from, since he is a very well know traditional astrologer who uses the sidereal zodiac. I believe he's posted at skyscript. Here is a link.

http://www.martingansten.com/

Thank you for that.

As to how either will affect Mercury, planets that are applying to combustion will behave differently and be weaker than planets who are escaping combustion. Occidentality and/or orientality will also affect planets' behaviour and ability to fulfill their mission in the chart. The very best thing I could refer you to would be Introductions to Traditional Astrology, by Benjamin Dykes. Skip ahead to Book III. Though I caution you that this is not a book for beginners.

Thank you for the tip Tsmall I have found on astrodienst as you said, the additional information. I see next to the aspects it has an A or S for applying or separating. Thank you for pointing that out and thank you for taking the time to answer those questions, much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Charlie