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HoldOrFold
07-05-2014, 12:28 PM
I use astrology-x-files.com a fair amount for interpretations because I find the information very on point.

I'm just having a look at a current transit I'm having, Jupiter square Mercury and on that site he says:

"If lord of the 11th, if Mercury has the times for spirit, you may see increased involvement with organizations and contacts with many different kinds of people, but will probably struggle organizing different agendas. If it has the times for fortune, acquisitions may have unforseen strings attached."
(http://www.astrology-x-files.com/transits/jupiter-op-mercury.html)

He mentions these terms a lot on various places of the site but with no explanation. What does this mean and how can I find out if a planet has times for spirit or fortune?

Konrad
07-07-2014, 09:04 PM
He means that Mercury is ruling the time-period currently active for the native when using a technique called Zodiacal Releasing.

I note that from your other threads here you are just starting out in this study, if I can leave some advice here: try not to just jump straight into delineating charts. I know it is tempting, and I certainly did it, and it put me back a good couple of years as I never really, truly understood anything I was looking at. Concentrate on getting down the basics including how to draw a chart by hand, how an astrological chart relates to astronomical reality and then from there planetary significations and things like the different kinds of rulerships and what they mean. I know it is difficult to ignore chart delineation at first, but you will be so much more able to deal with that if you learn the basics first. See it like learning a language: you wouldn't just pick up a book in a foreign language and expect to be able to read it straight off.

HoldOrFold
07-08-2014, 12:35 AM
Well I'm coming from modern astrology which I understand good, but traditional astrology is quite different so I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

I'm beginning to get to grips with it, I find it mainly useful to focus on real life examples. I'm finding this thread quite useful: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463

I'm a bit stuck on what I think about whole sign houses though. I find through experience that my equal sign house system has held quite accurate, but I can see some accuracy with whole sign as well. I'd be interested in people who combine the two.

JUPITERASC
07-08-2014, 01:18 AM
Well I'm coming from modern astrology which I understand good, but traditional astrology is quite different so I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

I'm beginning to get to grips with it, I find it mainly useful to focus on real life examples. I'm finding this thread quite useful: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463

I'm a bit stuck on what I think about whole sign houses though. I find through experience that my equal sign house system has held quite accurate, but I can see some accuracy with whole sign as well. I'd be interested in people who combine the two.
As dr. farr explains, originally ancient astrologers constructed Whole Sign Houses as follows :smile:


Cusps:

Today
(and for the past thousand years or so)
we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),
but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":
it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids)
and the point of a sword
-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,
and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";
now, when quadrant systems were developed,
this "point" of the house
came to mean its "beginning",
which later came to mean its "border",
ie,
the "border" between one house and the other.
And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps)
for various prognostic applications
(Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events,
the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results,
among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this:
in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all,
and never were so regarded!
In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning,
not as a "border"
but rather as A POINT
-and that POINT (cusp)
for EACH house,
was the sensitive point of that house,
viz,
the sensitive point in whole sign houses
-each house-
that is the "cusp" of each house
-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps
(sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp")
in the whole sign houses of this chart?

Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps"
(sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point")
that are
(and were)
used for progressions,
timing of events, etc,
and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well
(in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses
(always 0 degree of any sign) for anything,
but it DOES use "cusps"
(points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished
(both in the West and in Vedic astrology)
during the same period of time
-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-
this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices,
rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign)
by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West,
and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?"
(if old time astrologers did or didn't do something)
For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
-it worked better
(FOR ME)
I could care less if it were the oldest house system
(which it is)
or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me
(ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above,
does it work
(producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched;
but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it,
except for beginners
-to you who might just be starting out, I would say:
try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

HoldOrFold
07-08-2014, 09:09 AM
Thanks, yes I did read that earlier and elsewhere as well, about the cusps being points. The thing is I notice the house divisions as borders pretty clearly as well in practice.

For instance, the Sun is important in my chart in that it's the ascendant ruler, sect light, trigon ruler etc... in whole signs my Sun is in the 9th house. I can see how that plays out and it fits in many ways. But in equal houses my Sun is in the 8th house and that's probably more fitting in terms of events in my life. For instance, my Dad died several years ago while I was in my early 20's and then I inherited an expensive apartment from his life insurance payout which I've been renting out for good money since. That seems like textbook Sun in the 8th to me since I profited greatly in a life changing way from my father's death (at an early age at that).

And in my example, the Sun is not on the cusp of the 8th house point or anything, it's in the middle of the house about 15 degrees away from the cusp.

JUPITERASC
07-08-2014, 01:54 PM
Thanks, yes I did read that earlier and elsewhere as well, about the cusps being points. The thing is I notice the house divisions as borders pretty clearly as well in practice.

For instance, the Sun is important in my chart in that it's the ascendant ruler, sect light, trigon ruler etc... in whole signs my Sun is in the 9th house. I can see how that plays out and it fits in many ways. But in equal houses my Sun is in the 8th house and that's probably more fitting in terms of events in my life. For instance, my Dad died several years ago while I was in my early 20's and then I inherited an expensive apartment from his life insurance payout which I've been renting out for good money since. That seems like textbook Sun in the 8th to me since I profited greatly in a life changing way from my father's death (at an early age at that).

And in my example, the Sun is not on the cusp of the 8th house point or anything, it's in the middle of the house about 15 degrees away from the cusp.
Whole Sign House borders ARE important indicators of Planetary Ingresses
and
astrologers of ancient times were well aware of this fact :smile:


Keep in mind also that the degree of the MC
is another 'cusp'/'sensitive point'

So

each Whole Sign House has these two 'sensitive points', MC and ASC




Interesting discussion on Equal House at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8308&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=equal&start=0 where it is mentioned that Benjamin Dykes in his book Introduction to Traditional Astrology discusses early house systems.


BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE DISCUSSION

Robert Schmidt's theory is that quadrant systems were originally developed as planetary strength indicators rather than discrete house systems. You can still read the piece online on Curtis Manwaring's website: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/houses/schmidt-houses.html Schmidt's theory has become very influential and most of the American astrologers who worked or studied with Schmidt such as Robert Hand, Demetra George, Joseph Crane , Curtis Manwaring and Chris Brennan all adopted his theory.


Deborah Houlding questions this whole theory and has offered textual references that raises questions


Meanwhile, Chris Brennan has argued Ptolemy was actually using whole sign houses in his Tetrabiblos. His argument relies heavily on Robert Schmidt's translation of the Tetrabiblos into English and subtle lingustic differences in the way Schmidt translates the Greek text in contrast to his predecessors such as F.E. Robbins. http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/2011/12/08/did-ptolemy-use-whole-sign-houses/

HoldOrFold
07-09-2014, 07:57 PM
Phwoar, that's some heavy reading. My conclusion remains pretty much the same after that, but would be interested in how people can integrate say equal and whole signs together. Omnisphericus (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=28321) in the "Delianating a chart" thread uses equal and seems to throw in whole now and again in places, I have to proper go through it though.

Larxene
07-11-2014, 06:55 AM
To add to Konrad's advice about delineating charts, while it would actually stifle your progress if you try to delineate charts on your own without having mastered the basics (like a person trying to write in English when he only knows A to F), it is actually helpful if you read the delineation of other people after having attempted to understand some of the basics. Examples make the knowledge stick more easily. That is my own experience. After reading Maternus's Mathesis, many things start falling into place.


HoldorFold,

Well, there is one thing that I noticed lately. Apparently, even though the planets are not in a bad position in the natal chart, if it becomes debilitated in timing charts, it tends to portend less fortunate events during that period. It is something I am trying to reconcile: how can a planet that is supposed to favour me, bring me misfortunes?!

But in real life, that often happens. You are on good terms with your best friend, but sometimes you will find yourself arguing and fighting against him. I think, to put it dramatically, the only constant is change itself, as Heraclitus purportedly said.

So even though your Sun is in the 9th, it is still possible for him to pass away and leave some inheritances, when for example, the Sun is in detriment and in the 8th in the solar revolution, while Saturn in Libra in the 4th is in trigon relationship to it. The other thing that you need to take into consideration are the other significators of the father: 4th house and its lord, and the Lot of the Pater.

HoldOrFold
07-11-2014, 04:04 PM
Interesting way of looking at it, thanks. So my 4th house lord is Mars in domicile, unaspected except a square to Ascendant and trine POF. I figured since it's the disposited ruler of my Sun in Aries in the 8th (equal house) it ties in with inheriting property from my father's early death.