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KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 09:04 AM
In reading this thread: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47124

by Omnisphericus, I became interested in the idea of destiny literally written in the horoscope. I've calculated my lots for these five points in the chart, hopefully correctly. And now I am curious how one takes the next steps to analyze them?

I will post my whole sign natal for reference in case I've made an error. My calculations are as follows:

Pars Hyleg: 27 degrees Taurus, in my 10th house.
POF or LOF: 20.10 degrees Pisces in my 9th house.
Lot of Spirit: 8.53 degrees Scorpio in my 5th house.
Lot of Basis 25.92 degrees Scorpio in my 5th house.
Exaltation (signs from Sun to Aries: Aquarius sun, therefore 2 signs; count that number of SIGNS from the ASC: Asc is Cancer, plus two signs is Virgo): Virgo. Ruled by Mercury. Mercury in my 9th near the POF.
__
Calculation:
Lot of Spirit: ASC + Sun - Moon
14.21 Cancer + 22.50 Aquar - 28.39 Libra
.21/60 to get the degrees as a decimal of 100 = .35
.50/60 = .83
and .39/60 = /65
so
[14.21 is 14.35 + 90 degrees = 104.35] + [300+22.83] - [180 +28.65]
104.35 +322.83 - 208.65
427.18-208.65 = 218.35 ...210 is Scorpio so this is 8 degrees and .35 into Scorpio.

Lot of Basis:
ASC 104.35 (as established above) + POF (350.10) - LOS (218. 35)
104.35+350.10 - 218.53 = 235.92 --> 25.92 Scorpio

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 02:02 PM
Hi KatyaVelikaya,

Isee that your birth time says 330. I am hoping that this info is not rounded as it is imperative, when looking into lots, to have an accurate birth time. a matter of just a couple minutes can throw arabic lot analysis off completely.

Granted.... i checked your lots with an online calculator.

here's what it came up with:

Spirit: 8.32 scorpio
Fortune: 20.10 pisces
basis: * 0.43 pisces
Hyleg: unfortunately since you erased the birthdate on you chart i cannot verify this lot.

*part of basis.... it seems as you have the formula switched around. the correct fprmula for this part should read: as + pos-pof. please see this thread for more details:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=539360#post539360

its imperstive you are using the correct formula as this switches the meaning around entirely. part of basis would represent our spiritual aspirations... the integration of yin andyang forces... and the reverse represents our base desires or the imbalance of those two forces....

I also took the liberty of calculating your part of destiny, since you mentioned that. The formula is mc+ sun - moon and it comes out to 20.43 cancer.

i will be back on in about an hour with info on how to interperet these parts...

btw here is the parts calculator: http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 02:13 PM
Hi Phoenix, thanks so much for the reply!!!!!
My birth time is 3:30 PM daytime Pacific time. That is the time written on my birth certificate.
I will take a look at the calculators you just sent. Also am very curious what we are to do with this information then, so i eagerly await your response )))))) thanks so much!

Konrad
05-26-2014, 03:22 PM
*part of basis.... it seems as you have the formula switched around. the correct fprmula for this part should read: as + pos-pof. please see this thread for more details:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=539360#post539360

That is incorrect. If I am right in presuming that the original poster is looking for an interpretation based upon Vettius Valens (who used Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis concurrently as outlined in the original linked thread), then the Lot of Basis is the shortest arc between Fortune and Spirit and that projected from the ASC. It is always under the earth.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 03:25 PM
That is incorrect. If I am right in presuming that the original poster is looking for an interpretation based upon Vettius Valens (who used Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis concurrently as outlined in the original linked thread), then the Lot of Basis is the shortest arc between Fortune and Spirit and that projected from the ASC. It is always under the earth.

Yes that is what I'm trying to do ))

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 03:37 PM
Okay, the way to analyse these parts is to compare them to their sabian symbolism. You will also want to see if they are conjunct any planets or other chart points (axis, nodes, otjer arabic parts...) in your chart.

For instance your part of fortune is conjunct your mc. Now its quite wide in your chart but i will use this as an example. The part of fortune represents the ACTIONS that we can employ to best fulfill our spiritual purpose. The Mc of a chart represents the spiritual how. this is ACTIONARY as well but rather being about what one SHOULD do, it is more about what one does do. so a conjunction between the two is rather positive in that it suggests someone who is inclined towards acting for their own spiritual empowerment. Naturally, the closer the conjunction the stronger the effect. Usually use only a 1-2 degree orb for conjunctions to parts; with chart axis you can extend it a bit because the axis is so sensetive.

Now let's take a look at the symbols. these symbols will be taken from Dane Rudhyar's "An Astrological Mandala." Due to quotimg limitations I cannot post each part in full but i urge you to go to the website and look the symbolism up to read in full. They are extremely enlightening.... (and looking up the symbols for your other chart points is important, too.)

http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%20-%20Contents.htm

Please make sure to read the next symbol up for instance 8.35 scorpio is 9 scorpio.

Your part of fortune @ 23 pisces:

"UNDER THE WATCHFUL AND KIND EYE OF A CHINESE SERVANT, A GIRL FONDLES A LITTLE WHITE LAMB.

KEYNOTE: Growth in consciousness in its earliest tactile awareness of the wonders of unsophisticated living.

This symbol recalls the one for Phase 174 (Virgo 24°) —"Mary and her little lamb" —but it occupies a different position in the five-fold sequence and a new factor is added: the "Chinese servant." According to the occult tradition, the original Chinese race was an extension of the humanity (or "Root Race") preceding ours —thus the stress upon the biological factors of family and ancestors, and also on the dualism of the Yang and Yin interplay. The "Chinese servant" represents the past as a servant of the new evolution. (The "white lamb" suggests the sign of all beginnings, Aries.) This new evolution is just about to begin during the late Pisces phase of the year cycle. It is as yet an ideal, a white loveliness. The girl discovers the new feeling of the touch of wool and of animal warmth. The preceding five-fold sequence began with a symbol suggesting the inspiring revelation of new truths or facts which the creative person is seeking to formulate. Now we witness another kind of discovery —a sensuously emotional discovery, perhaps a presentiment of the mother-feeling.

This is the first symbol of the seventy-first sequence. It brings together past and future, an overlapping of levels. The Chinese kindly watching the white girl; the girl fondling the white lamb. There is charm and ingenuousness in the scene —a vision of WHITE HOPE,a hope for a future that can only be felt, almost naively."

So employing this action- envisioning hope - will be beneficial for spiritual wealth.

Now your part of spirit is complimentary to the part of fortune. It is internal and shows how you feel about yourself.

Part of spirit @ 9 scorpio:

"DENTIST AT WORK.

KEYNOTE: Overcoming the negative results of social practices and ego-cravings. INVENTIVENESS."

The part of hyleg represents the root of all the other parts. If you want to pm me your birthdate i can find the exact position of this part for you.

The part of basis represents our spiritual aspirations. It can entail the blending of the divine feminine and divine masculine.

Part of basis @ 1 pisces:

"IN A CROWDED MARKETPLACE FARMERS AND MIDDLEMEN DISPLAY A GREAT VARIETY OF PRODUCTS.

KEYNOTE: The process of commingling and interchange which at all levels demonstrates the health of a community. COMMERCE."

So commerce, connecting through a larger sense of purpose with others, is what you are striving for on a spiritual level.

And your part of destiny represents just that, your destiny for this lifetime.... your spiritual point of existence...

Part of destiny @ 21 cancer:

"A FAMOUS SINGER IS PROVING HER VIRTUOSITY DURING AN OPERATIC PERFORMANCE.

KEYNOTE: The emotional reward accompanying cultural excellence.THE PRICE OF SUCCESS."

So it seems as though your destiny will be about handling success and displaying of skill.

Remember, the parts become active via symbolism and conjunctions to other major chart points.

Hope this helped.

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 03:43 PM
That is incorrect. If I am right in presuming that the original poster is looking for an interpretation based upon Vettius Valens (who used Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis concurrently as outlined in the original linked thread), then the Lot of Basis is the shortest arc between Fortune and Spirit and that projected from the ASC. It is always under the earth.

It may be incorrect by vallens standards but i employ my own techniques based on the experience that i have studying natal and working with the arabic parts.

Hopefully the op will appreciate the info that i did have to offer. :smile:

you are more than welcome to give your own interpretation, based on Vallens techniques, if you find mine to be insufficient.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 03:46 PM
Phoenix thanks so much! Yes this is very very helpful. Those "snippets" with the image and phrase are highly helpful.
What is very serendipitous is I have had an affection for white lambs since I was little. I have a collection of little white lambs, both stuffed animals and glass figurines...obviously that is not what the snippet is about but... -- it was uncanny when i read that image!
I will PM you birth date )

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 04:00 PM
I just wanted to comment on the explanation for the Part of Destiny at 21 Cancer. I find this particularly hard to understand -- part of it makes sense to me but another part does not. The details for that page/quotation are:

If anything represents the type of response that a well-developed society gives to the individual who successfully pours their energy into the skillful externalization of the great images of its culture, it is the opera. The operatic prima donna is not merely a lonely performer, like the piano virtuoso (Gemini 13°); he or she is the star in a collective effort. The opera is not only music, but a story, a mythos, which embodies some of the most basic images and emotions characterizing the culture that gave it birth. Euro-American culture is indeed extolled — or condemned — by its operas and their lurid and tragic passions. It is interesting to compare the opera with the equivalent type of social performances and their topics in India, Java or Tibet.

At this first stage of the twenty-third five-fold sequence of cyclic phases we find the drive toward individualization by means of concrete forms of cultural activity glorified in social and financial success. In its deepest sense the symbol refers to THE PRICE OF SUCCESS — for the individual, as well for as the collectivity acclaiming him or her. What is success really worth? A question few people ask.

This would suggest that if I find a means to promote culture then I will succeed, and as a result of that success I will have some financial compensation. But the description itself *questions* the value of such success with its final sentences. To me success is meaningless after a certain point. Success is meeting your basic needs on the one hand: having food, shelter, and not being in debt, having good health, access to doctors. On a higher level "success" is thriving, going beyond those basics to excel at what you personally are good at, to improve the external world in some way and not just your own pocketbook, to leave your mark on the world so that after death you will be remembered for something, for some contribution. One could argue that is success. What about being a mother or wife and raising a family? That can also be success (if done well). I think the definitions are numerous and I would actually argue that "success" should not be anyone's goal per se. I know i've struggled with the basics enough. Yes I'd love a million dollars, but what I would do with it is first ensure I have a family - a child and husband as those are the very most important things in life to me. Money and homes and cars? What good does that do you if you have no family or no friends and are estranged from society? So "success" is a fragile term here and I'm not sure what the point of this description is, exactly....?

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 04:02 PM
Phoenix thanks so much! Yes this is very very helpful. Those "snippets" with the image and phrase are highly helpful.
What is very serendipitous is I have had an affection for white lambs since I was little. I have a collection of little white lambs, both stuffed animals and glass figurines...obviously that is not what the snippet is about but... -- it was uncanny when i read that image!
I will PM you birth date )

Your welcome. :) The symbols have an interesting & synchronistic effect on us. For instance another poster made a thread asking if they were an alien and talked about how their north node made them feel as though they had an alien or special destiny.... come to find out the symbolism for their north node talked about being an alien!

the magic of the stars. Im glad that you find the symbolism to resonate :)

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 04:17 PM
Your part of hyleg (as + moon - prenatal new or full moon) calculates to 26.59 virgo. i notice this is very close to your ic. the ic represents the spiritual WHY....why you are on this mission in life... seeing as how the hyleg represents the root of all parts... that which all the other parts are dependent upon... it makes sense and suggests that this symbol is one of import...

"A GROUP OF ARISTOCRATIC LADIES MEET CEREMONIALLY AT A COURT'S FUNCTION.

KEYNOTE: The ability to carry on a revered tradition in order to perpetuate cultural standards of excellence.

At the highest peak of achievement of any fully developed culture the King considers himself in some manner a representative of the Power that controls the order of the universe. From him descends a hierarchy of offices performed by an aristocracy. On the feminine side, to be an aristocrat is to be able to act efficiently in the many rituals of a culture —from official tea parties to presentations at the Court. Dignity, elegance and respect for formal rules are essential.

We may consider the formalism obsolete and meaningless, yet when it ceases to be observed the culture breaks down. Even now in this age of crisis and world transformation, there may be times when honoring formal procedures can be of great value for the disordered and rebellious mind.

This second stage symbol presents the contrast between the "profane" and the "sacred" ritual. But the two need not be antithetic. Our over-individualistic and confused new generations find it valuable to study Japanese tea ceremonies, flower arrangement, judo, etc. The undisciplined need to learn REFINEMENT."

So remember how your part of destiny represented a charasmatic display of skill... it seems to imply here that the reason for that need of destiny is about reestablishing discipline and asense of value within your psyche to extend out ino your evironment.

perhaps you would want to look up your part of skill, as well. I have to step away from the computer now but follow the link i provided up above to calculate the part if you wish to do it faster than by hand... just plug the degrees and minutes into the appropriate boxes based on the formula.... the formula is ascendant + mars - mercury.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 04:25 PM
Thanks so much Phoenix. I see the calculator page but there's no listing for Part of Skill or part of Talent...i looked through the list, maybe it's called something else, but nothing else seems to fit... hmmm...

Phoenix Venus
05-26-2014, 04:30 PM
You don't need to use the drop down list just put the degrees in the boxes based on the formula as + mars - merc....

ill take a peek back later to try and help if you haven't figured it out.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 04:50 PM
Ah Ok thanks. I did not have that formula.
So if i plug it in I get Virgo 25.31 degrees for my Part of Skill...in the 3rd House. It's within 1 degree of the Hyleg, so I wonder if that means anything?
That is within 1 degree of being exactly opposite my POF...

Konrad
05-26-2014, 04:50 PM
It may be incorrect by vallens standards but i employ my own techniques based on the experience that i have studying natal and working with the arabic parts.

Hopefully the op will appreciate the info that i did have to offer. :smile:

you are more than welcome to give your own interpretation, based on Vallens techniques, if you find mine to be insufficient.

It is not my place to judge the efficacy of your interpretation. However, I felt it had to be noted that the information you presented was not what the OP was asking for, both for their benefit and for those reading it in the future. As long as you clarify that what you are saying is contradictory to the tradition that these concepts originated with, then there is no problem from my side. You have since done that. All is good.

Just as a note for the OP, you may want to look at the Lots of Fortune and Spirit as a pair akin to the Sun and the Moon. Fortune as the lunar lot shows our body, illnesses, wealth etc. it is all the things which happen to us outside of our control and intentions. Reading up on fortuna and tyche is illuminating. Spirit as the solar lot shows our intentions, actions and the part of our being which connects the Divine to the mundane i.e. our "soul". It is relevant to judge one's actions primarily which is why it is sometimes read to find one's career.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 04:54 PM
Hi Konrad,
Thanks also for your posts. I get stumped at the point of "what does this mean". For example we know my POF is at 20 Pisces...so what? what next? What does that tell me, is it fortunate or not, good or bad? I'm interested in some sort of interpretation for the signs...I will use that page/link that Phoenix provided but beyond that, how do we figure out what this means when taking all 5 lots/points as a whole?

Konrad
05-26-2014, 05:01 PM
Hi Konrad,
Thanks also for your posts. I get stumped at the point of "what does this mean". For example we know my POF is at 20 Pisces...so what? what next? What does that tell me, is it fortunate or not, good or bad? I'm interested in some sort of interpretation for the signs...I will use that page/link that Phoenix provided but beyond that, how do we figure out what this means when taking all 5 lots/points as a whole?

My advice would be to ignore all of that and delineate the chart first, beginning with all planets. Once you have an overall picture, then look to the nuances of the chart.

As for it being in Pisces, it means very little on its own. In this tradition, the lord of the Lot is important to describe its manifestation. Its aspects modify its quality too. A good idea would be to look at Omnisphericus' post to see an outline of what Valens said about the usage of this group of lots. I would also caution that you pick which group of people you are going to follow here as the advice and interpretation given above directly contradicts what every ancient astrologer said of the nature of the Lots. For this reason, you cannot follow both concurrently.

KatyaVelikaya
05-26-2014, 05:54 PM
Hi Konrad,
Thanks for your input as well. By delineate the chart first, what do you mean? I have my natal chart, and we calculate the lots is based on that. I have most of those points now. You mean place the position of each lot in/on the natal somehow?

I'm probably most interested in following the traditional route as I tend to be more traditional myself. If that's the case, where would I go for traditional interpretations if, as you say, the links above to Dane Rudhyar's "An Astrological Mandala" are not as traditional?

Konrad
05-26-2014, 06:42 PM
Hi Konrad,
Thanks for your input as well. By delineate the chart first, what do you mean? I have my natal chart, and we calculate the lots is based on that. I have most of those points now. You mean place the position of each lot in/on the natal somehow?

I mean to figure out what the condition of the chart is in general, irrespective of the Lots. Jumping straight into the Lots without understanding the planets and their role in the life will lead to errors.

I'm probably most interested in following the traditional route as I tend to be more traditional myself. If that's the case, where would I go for traditional interpretations if, as you say, the links above to Dane Rudhyar's "An Astrological Mandala" are not as traditional?That's right. Rudhyar is a modern astrologer. There are fundamental differences in the approach and philosophies of traditional and modern astrologers. Even within the "traditional" label, there are many different schools. Valens is a Hellenistic astrologer from around 2000 years ago. His is one way. Even in his time, there were different ideas aout how to do things. By the Latin Medieval period, astrology was looking a bit different (including the use, and in some case, the calculation, of these particular lots) and the Renaissance different again. It is probaby best to pick a time-period and then a couple of authors who generally agree in approach and learn from them. Once you know one style, it then becomes easier to learn and understand other approaches.

Larxene
05-29-2014, 07:33 AM
I believe what Konrad means is to study the planets' conditions first to determine the quality and quantity of any particular topic you are pursuing. Only after that do you study the Lots. The Lots act as a sort of modifier to what the planets give.

For example, if you want to study career, the first thing to do is to look at planets on the MC/10th house, planets on the angles, planets trining the 10th (2nd and 6th), planets making a heliacal phase, planets that are affecting the Lord of the MC/10th house, etc. Only after that do you check the Lot of Spirit.

The planets set the baseline, the Lots amplify or diminish this baseline.

Another more quantitative example is fame. If the planets indicate that a person be famous, then a well-placed Lot will increase that significantly. If the planets claim that the person will be obscure, a well-placed Lot will only prevent him from being a total nobody.

At least, this is how I understand it.


Katya, perhaps you should start by perusing the texts of Vettius Valens, since the combination of these four lots (actually five, I am not sure why the fifth is not included) specifically came from Valens himself. If you cannot find or purchase Project Hindsight's translation (by Robert Schmidt), then use this free translation:

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

You might find an interpretation of these Lots by a modern-day astrologer Antoine Garth to be helpful: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five-Pillars-of-Fate-Fortune-and-Destiny-in-Astrology

He also has a presentation (at the end of which contains the five Lots) here: http://www.slideshare.net/agarth/five-pillars-of-fate-ancient-greek-astrology-presentation#

Chris Brennan, one of the authorities in the Hellenistic vein talks about the rationale behind the Hermetic Lots here (two of which are Fortune and Spirit): http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf

You might also want to read the articles on Curtis Manwaring's website, since he is the first person to create an astrological software specifically catered to Hellenistic techniques that is available in English (others may have created a similar software in other languages, I don't know), and he may have some information on the Lots: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/

I would especially recommend this article where the Lots were being used (notice how he started by analysing the position of the trigon lords, i.e. planets, not immediately with the Lots): http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/arnolds-eminence.html


I am sure there are other resources. Google is (y)our best friend here, I think. :biggrin:

Konrad
05-29-2014, 09:40 AM
I believe what Konrad means is to study the planets' conditions first to determine the quality and quantity of any particular topic you are pursuing. Only after that do you study the Lots. The Lots act as a sort of modifier to what the planets give

I meant that somewhat. These two Lots in particular are important in my own delineations, and moreso than most other points in the chart. But what I meant was to do what (I think) Schmidt terms the "Preliminary Natal Analysis" meaning that one look to the diginties, aspects, positions, bonification/maltreatment etc. of each individual planet before even looking at delineating topics in the chart. For me at least, this gives a good idea of what each planet is doing at the time in general before looking to specifics like health, wealth, career and so on. Even before the topical approach, I am more interested in the fixed stars, the Predominator of the Nativity and the Kurios. I find these tend to dominate the life to the extent that everything else, ASC lord included, falls under their jurisdiction. Angular planets may show the what and how of the life, these show the why and to what end.