Moon Nodes
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From my perspective (which regarding the SN is rather extremist) I would answer-yes.
HOWEVER, the most widely followed consensus in Hellenist and traditional Western astrology (excluding the view of Gerard of Cremona, which is what I follow)' is that the primary influence of the SN (aka "Dragon's Tail" and "Descending Node") is to reduce the benefic influences of benefic planets and equally to reduce the malefic influences of malefic planets: so, following this consensus (rather than my perspective), the SN conjunct benefic ruler of House A, would reduce the benefic influences of that planet, in general and as lord of House A and also relative to the benefic influences of that planet where it is posited, in House B.
HOWEVER, the most widely followed consensus in Hellenist and traditional Western astrology (excluding the view of Gerard of Cremona, which is what I follow)' is that the primary influence of the SN (aka "Dragon's Tail" and "Descending Node") is to reduce the benefic influences of benefic planets and equally to reduce the malefic influences of malefic planets: so, following this consensus (rather than my perspective), the SN conjunct benefic ruler of House A, would reduce the benefic influences of that planet, in general and as lord of House A and also relative to the benefic influences of that planet where it is posited, in House B.
Maximus, also Antiochus of Athens, made mention of them-I think also the last of the Classical era authors, Rhetorius did so as well; we see more of an interest in them and their use in delineation, by the early Islamic transitional era, for example in the writings of Abu Mashar ("Great Introduction"); by the time of al-Biruni (1058 AD) their use as described above (as "modifiers" of the planet they conjunct, if any) was "basic doctrine".
In the East, both in ancient Chinese and Vedic astrology, their significance was much greater than in the Western astrological tradition (indeed, elevated to an almost "planetary" level of importance in Vedic astrology)...
Note: medieval (European) geomancy took the names "Cauda Draconis" (Dragon's Tail) and "Caput Draconis" (Dragon's Head), from the Latin titles of the Nodes as used in astrology of that and earlier periods.
In the East, both in ancient Chinese and Vedic astrology, their significance was much greater than in the Western astrological tradition (indeed, elevated to an almost "planetary" level of importance in Vedic astrology)...
Note: medieval (European) geomancy took the names "Cauda Draconis" (Dragon's Tail) and "Caput Draconis" (Dragon's Head), from the Latin titles of the Nodes as used in astrology of that and earlier periods.
Why have Moon Nodes in Vedic astrology acquired greater status and importance than in Western? If I'm not mistaken, moon nodes in vedic astrology can even be significators of profession. And in Western we just have the meaning of "increasing/reducing" effect?
That, of course, is a good question: I think it shows different emphasis from one tradition to the other, and argues against the current widely help opinion (in the West) that Vedic astrology is not much more than a modified copy of Hellenist astrology.
I'll mention that in MODERNIST Western astrology, the Nodes have taken on much greater importance than in either Hellenist or Traditional (ie medieval, Renaissance, Reformation era) astrology, and many who incorporate Modernist concepts and methods (as I do) give much importance to the Lunar Nodes...
I'll mention that in MODERNIST Western astrology, the Nodes have taken on much greater importance than in either Hellenist or Traditional (ie medieval, Renaissance, Reformation era) astrology, and many who incorporate Modernist concepts and methods (as I do) give much importance to the Lunar Nodes...
Dr Farr, I think it would be interesting to see how you use Lunar Nodes. What additional sense you give to them? I know that it is a very abstract question. But ... Maybe to give some situation where Moon Nodes can be emphasized: elevated, within angles, heavily aspected,
Thank you
I use them almost exclusively by conjunction or parallel of declination, however I also use their transit ingresses and their conjunctions (or parallels) in transit as well, and similar uses in Solar Returns and profections and symbolic directions.
I am of the school of delineative thought which rejects that the Nodes CAST aspects, and believe they only operate (on other chart factors) via position or conjunction (or declination)-however, I do consider close aspects of PLANETS TO THE NODES, to be operative and to modify the influence of the Node by such aspects. For me the "orbs" of the Nodes are tight:2, maximum of 3 degrees for conjunctions (2 degrees max for parallel), aspects of planets TO the orbs, maximum of 3 degrees from perfection. I consider each Node to influence the ENTIRE SIGN it is in (regardless of what degree of that sign the Node is in) and also anything posited in that sign (planet or Lot, midpoint, etc), to a certain extent (not as much, though, as if the planet or Lot is within orb of conjunction with that Node)
Regarding delineative meaning, although somewhat influenced by Vedic astrological significations allocated to each Node, I fundamentally follow the Nodal indications from 13th century Gerard of Cremona: North Node, equivalent to a mixture of qualities of Venus + Jupiter; South Node, equivalent to a mixture of the MALEFIC (ONLY) qualities of Mars + Saturn (my perspective regarding the SN is extremist, but I am convinced it is correct)
A very good book (albeit primarily from a Modernist Western perspective) is Judith Hill's "The Lunar Nodes", easily available from a number of internet vendors (including astroamerica.com and Amazon books)...
I am of the school of delineative thought which rejects that the Nodes CAST aspects, and believe they only operate (on other chart factors) via position or conjunction (or declination)-however, I do consider close aspects of PLANETS TO THE NODES, to be operative and to modify the influence of the Node by such aspects. For me the "orbs" of the Nodes are tight:2, maximum of 3 degrees for conjunctions (2 degrees max for parallel), aspects of planets TO the orbs, maximum of 3 degrees from perfection. I consider each Node to influence the ENTIRE SIGN it is in (regardless of what degree of that sign the Node is in) and also anything posited in that sign (planet or Lot, midpoint, etc), to a certain extent (not as much, though, as if the planet or Lot is within orb of conjunction with that Node)
Regarding delineative meaning, although somewhat influenced by Vedic astrological significations allocated to each Node, I fundamentally follow the Nodal indications from 13th century Gerard of Cremona: North Node, equivalent to a mixture of qualities of Venus + Jupiter; South Node, equivalent to a mixture of the MALEFIC (ONLY) qualities of Mars + Saturn (my perspective regarding the SN is extremist, but I am convinced it is correct)
A very good book (albeit primarily from a Modernist Western perspective) is Judith Hill's "The Lunar Nodes", easily available from a number of internet vendors (including astroamerica.com and Amazon books)...
Larxene
Well-known member
Thank you, dr. farr.
I am highly interested in material on the nodes, because my superficial browsing of Valens, Maternus, Ptolemy, Dorotheus and Hermes Trismegistus's works did not reveal much information on them, if any at all.
By Rhetorius, I assume you mean this book? The only material I've found on Maximus is this free online critical edition. Did you read this Latin/Greek text?
Finally, as for Antiochus, are you talking about the Thesaurus? In Antiochus's case, reading this website reveals that it is more complicated than it looks. Seems like there is more than one text that may be linked to Antiochus.
I am highly interested in material on the nodes, because my superficial browsing of Valens, Maternus, Ptolemy, Dorotheus and Hermes Trismegistus's works did not reveal much information on them, if any at all.
By Rhetorius, I assume you mean this book? The only material I've found on Maximus is this free online critical edition. Did you read this Latin/Greek text?
Finally, as for Antiochus, are you talking about the Thesaurus? In Antiochus's case, reading this website reveals that it is more complicated than it looks. Seems like there is more than one text that may be linked to Antiochus.
1) Yes that's the Rhetorius book I referred to.
2) Unfortunately I don't read Greek, and am only moderately fluent with reading Latin: I have access to English translated (typed) material from 2 books by Maximus, which translations are in the private collection of an esotericist associate of mine. In that translation, Maximus makes the simple statement that... "Caput increases and Cauda decreases, the benefic or malefic rays of the planet the Node is with"... (here Maximus is referring to conjunction by sign, since conjunctions and aspects were regarded by sign, during the Hellenist era)
3) Yes, the "Thesaurus", but not the book shown in the link-again, I refer to a typed English translation of the "Thesaurus", in the private collection I referred to, above.
But the Hellenist literature I have perused, doesn't have much to say about the Nodes; for extensive material about the Nodes from ancient times (approximately contemporary with the Hellenist era) we must study early Vedic classical texts, such as the "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra" (composed of various BC and early to mid AD texts ascribed to sage Parasara, collected around the 7-8th century AD), and the works of the 6th century AD Varahamihira and his son, Prithuyasas. Indeed, it might well be that the greater (somewhat greater) emphasis on the Nodes we find starting in the Islamic transitional era (with Abu Mashar, for example), arose from INDIC astrological influences upon the early Islamic astrological authors, channeling through them into medieval and later, European astrology...
2) Unfortunately I don't read Greek, and am only moderately fluent with reading Latin: I have access to English translated (typed) material from 2 books by Maximus, which translations are in the private collection of an esotericist associate of mine. In that translation, Maximus makes the simple statement that... "Caput increases and Cauda decreases, the benefic or malefic rays of the planet the Node is with"... (here Maximus is referring to conjunction by sign, since conjunctions and aspects were regarded by sign, during the Hellenist era)
3) Yes, the "Thesaurus", but not the book shown in the link-again, I refer to a typed English translation of the "Thesaurus", in the private collection I referred to, above.
But the Hellenist literature I have perused, doesn't have much to say about the Nodes; for extensive material about the Nodes from ancient times (approximately contemporary with the Hellenist era) we must study early Vedic classical texts, such as the "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra" (composed of various BC and early to mid AD texts ascribed to sage Parasara, collected around the 7-8th century AD), and the works of the 6th century AD Varahamihira and his son, Prithuyasas. Indeed, it might well be that the greater (somewhat greater) emphasis on the Nodes we find starting in the Islamic transitional era (with Abu Mashar, for example), arose from INDIC astrological influences upon the early Islamic astrological authors, channeling through them into medieval and later, European astrology...
markpattinson902
Member
The Moon's Nodes illustrate those points on the ground, where the orbit of the Moon around the Earth crosses that of the Earth around the Sun. both intersections can be calculated and they are diametrically opposed one to another, so they make up the lines of the nodes. That nodal axis moves backwards, that is, from Aries/Libra to Pisces/Virgo, to Aquarius/Leo, etc. It takes about 18.5 years to pass by the twelve zodiac signs.
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Kuntuzangmo
Well-known member
Do all of you consider these effects regarding nodal transits as well as natal?
What special influence (if yes) would be the nodal conjunctions at the angular houses? I just had them cross the mc/ic point...not aware of much of anything. Just curious.
What special influence (if yes) would be the nodal conjunctions at the angular houses? I just had them cross the mc/ic point...not aware of much of anything. Just curious.
Larxene
Well-known member
I have not worked with the Nodes because I could not find any reference to them in the books that I am reading right now.
However, recently I skimmed through Liber Hermetis (Zoller translation, re-published through Project Hindsight) and found some material on it. For example (a chapter on "Concerning The Dangerous Year"):
Then there is this particularly confusing and probably (in my opinion) corrupted passage (Part 1, Chapter XVI, "Concerning the Considerations of the Figure"):
I don't know what to make of this at the moment. More research is warranted.
However, recently I skimmed through Liber Hermetis (Zoller translation, re-published through Project Hindsight) and found some material on it. For example (a chapter on "Concerning The Dangerous Year"):
"It will be fitting for us to consider the Head of the Dragon in a nativity, in what sign it is, whether moveable, fixed or of double body, and in which planet's house, or triplicity or exaltation, [for] at that time the virtue of both the planet and of the sign will be debilitated. Indeed, we find very often that planets having the possibility to cause something, either according to the nativity, or according to the transit of that place, do not produce anything. But if they make some appearance in the Head or in the Tail, they are causers of evil things, especially if they are found retrograde or occidental."
It seems that both the North and South Nodes are considered malefic. I have to note though that based on my conversation with Chris Brennan, it seems that the Liber Hermetis is mostly a compilation of works by later Hellenistic (and based on the notes in the translation, probably Persian as well) authors. So this may not reflect the early Hellenistic tradition which I follow.
Then there is this particularly confusing and probably (in my opinion) corrupted passage (Part 1, Chapter XVI, "Concerning the Considerations of the Figure"):
"The fifth consideration is that you look to the Head and Tail [of the Dragon], in what places and in what decans they are. The Head, when it is with the benevolent [planets] or with the Sun or Moon or with Mercury, causes harm to the nativity and induces disasters. When the Sun is with the Head or the Tail the father is harmed. But when the Moon is, the mother is destroyed and called ignominious, especially when in the angles. But the Head with Saturn and Mars signifies the same, especially in angles, because the Head, when it is with benevolent [planets] produces good, when with malevolent [planets], however, evil. Similarly, the Tail with Saturn and Mars produces good, when with the other, depraved things. It lays aside their virtue..[lacuna]"
Here it seems that the Head causes evil for all planets, but is contradicted by the later statement that being with benevolent planets cause good things. The Tail is more consistent. The Tail with malefics decrease their malefic influences, making them more balanced, and balance in some of the old Greek philosophies is good. When the Tail is with benefics, it also decreases their benefic influences, making them imbalanced, and imbalance causes evil things.
I don't know what to make of this at the moment. More research is warranted.
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Writings contemporary with the Hellenists in Vedic astrology go much into various doctrines regarding the Nodes (which they call Rahu = North Node, and Ketu = South Node) You might get further information of the ancient attitude about the Nodes, from that source.
In traditional Vedic astrology, both Nodes were considered "natural malefics" (as were the Sun, Mars and Saturn; the "natural benefics" were Venus and Jupiter, with the Moon and Mercury considered "natural variables") However, a strongly emphasized doctrine was that conditions could "turn" a natural malefic into a functional benefic, and a natural benefic into a functional malefic. We find a similar outlook in Hellenist literature, although not as strongly emphasized as in the ancient Vedic practice. (Note: Vedic texts available in English which are contemporary with the Hellenist period are the "Bhrigu Sutram", the "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra", and the "Jaimini Sutras'; contemporary with late Classical times-circa 500's AD-the "Brihat Samhita" and the "Brihat Jataka", and the "Hora Sara" of Prithuyasas, these last 3 books being contemporary in time with the works of Olympiodorus and Rhetorius, in the West)
In traditional Vedic astrology, both Nodes were considered "natural malefics" (as were the Sun, Mars and Saturn; the "natural benefics" were Venus and Jupiter, with the Moon and Mercury considered "natural variables") However, a strongly emphasized doctrine was that conditions could "turn" a natural malefic into a functional benefic, and a natural benefic into a functional malefic. We find a similar outlook in Hellenist literature, although not as strongly emphasized as in the ancient Vedic practice. (Note: Vedic texts available in English which are contemporary with the Hellenist period are the "Bhrigu Sutram", the "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra", and the "Jaimini Sutras'; contemporary with late Classical times-circa 500's AD-the "Brihat Samhita" and the "Brihat Jataka", and the "Hora Sara" of Prithuyasas, these last 3 books being contemporary in time with the works of Olympiodorus and Rhetorius, in the West)
The theory behind the Nodes of the Moon (the North Node and South Node) suggests that we tend to all acquire this world with some underdeveloped and overdeveloped aspects of our character. The Nodes of the Moon purpose America to those specific qualities: the South Node suggests our overdeveloped character traits that are simple to fall back on, however which will undermine our lives if we tend to hold on to those traits for security; whereas the North Node suggests the qualities that we'd like to develop so as to search out inner balance.
I shall mention that much of the Modern interpretation of the Nodes, derives from jyotish (Vedic) sources (such as the ones I have mentioned in my previous posts) More definite (fleshed out so to speak) Western material on the Nodes really doesn't appear until the 13th century (Gerard of Cremona) and subsequently (with such authors as Agrippa, etc)
Dr.farr, if assessing temperament, should we include nodes? What do you think?
Strictly looking at TEMPERAMENT-I have never used the Nodes for this application; so-without suggesting what anyone should or should not done in delineation-my OPINION here, is -no-...