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digimon19
02-17-2014, 07:49 AM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen! I' m just wondering if someone could help me with the assessment of temperament and if it's allowed to ask such questions here.

I have the following questions for the chart:
1) How to choose Lord of Geniture if there is no planet with both essential and accidental dignity?
2) Do planets on MC affect temperament?

Asc -15,58 Vir
Mc - 12,35 Gem
Thank you!

digimon19
02-17-2014, 08:17 AM
Or this way

tee_jay66
02-17-2014, 04:00 PM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen! I' m just wondering if someone could help me with the assessment of temperament and if it's allowed to ask such questions here.

I have the following questions for the chart:
1) How to choose Lord of Geniture if there is no planet with both essential and accidental dignity?
2) Do planets on MC affect temperament?

Asc -15,58 Vir
Mc - 12,35 Gem
Thank you!

as far as Im aware planets on the MC do not affect temperament. Planets here show where our career or deepest talents career-wise are. Also planets and sign on cusp of MC show how people see us and how we come across to others

sorry cannot help with 'Lord of Geniture' as ive never heard of it

JUPITERASC
02-17-2014, 04:18 PM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen! I' m just wondering if someone could help me with the assessment of temperament and if it's allowed to ask such questions here.

I have the following questions for the chart:

1) How to choose Lord of Geniture if there is no planet with both essential and accidental dignity?
There's guidance on the method of calculating the Lord of the Chart at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49000 :smile:



I was asked in private message to explain the method of calculating the Almutem Figuris of the chart, so I thought that since this is new forum (traditional astrology) it would be better to open a thread here and explain the method publicly where we can all discuss it.

Almutem Figuris is an old doctrine where one planet according to certain calculations applied, receives the honors to be the Ruler or Lord of the Chart.

Robert Zoler had applied the therm AlmuteM instead of AlmuteN in order to differentiate the Lord of the Chart from the Lord of certain house or place in the natal chart such as Almuten Domus (Ruler of a House).

The word Almutes is an Arabian word which means 'Winner'.
Because, the planet is the Winner of all the 'life giving' places. Or the places which are most sensible and important in the natal figure.

The method which we'll use here I call Ezra/Zoller method.
Arabian Astrologer Ibn Ezra (1089 — 1164) was the first (as far as we at this moment are aware) to explicitely wrote about calculating the Almutem Figuris.

In his writings Zoller trace the beginnings of this Almutem Figuris and he found it in the writings of Iambichus (c. 245–c. 325) who was Syrian neo-platonic philosopher who wrote also about Astrology in his writings.
Iambicus in his work "Theurgy or on the mysteries of Egypt" speaks about the thing how one can change his fate. He speaks that he can do that through Theurgy and through personal relationship with the Lord of the Geniture of which he (Iambichus) only says that can be known through Astrology, but he didn't explained the method.
Zoller, tracing back the Ibn Ezra's ancestry, through the Sabaeans and his teachers (Mashallah and other) all the way to the first centuries where this doctrine was thought. Because of that line Zoller thinks that the Lord of the Geniture of which Iambichus speaks in his writings is in fact the Almutem Figuris of the Ibn Ezra.

Iambichus speaks (through the name of Porphyry) about the Peculiar Daimon, that is some kind of an Guardian Angel and it is conected to the personal soul but its not the same
Here's what Iambichus says in his Theurgy:
This [daimon] therefore is present as an exemplar before the souls descend into the realm of generated existence. As soon as the soul chooses him for leader the [daimon] immediately comes into charge of completing of its vital endowments and when it descends into the body it unites with the body and becomes the guardian of it common living principle. He likewise directs the the private life of the soul and
whatever the conclusions we may arrive at by inference and reasoning he himself imparts to us the principles."

Zoller about the Almutem Figuris says that it is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together."

Benjamin Dykes (great student of Zoller) says about Almutem Figuris:
"Almutem Figuris, a powerful planet in the natal figure whose spirit or angel acts as the native's special link to the Divine. The Almutem Figuris is a spiritual astrological delineation, similar to but not the same as Lilly's the "Lord of the Geniture." But like Lilly (and Plato), the Almutem Figuris was taken to affect the native's thoughts, beliefs and character. Spiritual enlightenment can demand that we open our eyes to this particular planet and use it to access the Divine. Significantly, this is a function that many modern astrologers now attribute to the sun sign." (In his article on Happiness).

The method of calculation

1. Find the Essential Dignities (the 5 dignities, apply 3 points to all 3 triplicity rulers), in the Degree of the:
- Sun
- Moon
- Ascendant
- Part of Fortune
- Syzygy (the prenatal lunation, the one that came last, i.e. after which the birth follows - New or Full Moon).

2. Add 7 points for the Day ruler and 6 points to the Hour ruler.

3. Add accidental dignities scores.

For the planet in 1st house you add 12 points.
10th house = 11 points
7th house = 10
4th house = 9
11th = 8
5th = 7
2nd = 6
9th = 5
8th = 4
3rd = 3
12th = 2
6th = 1

The planet which has most points in the aforesaid places is the Almutem Figuris of the chart!

Don't forget to apply the 5 degrees ruler for the planet near the cusp of the houses. For example, if Saturn is at 15 Scorpio in 4th, but the 5th house cusp is at 19 Scorpio, you will calculate that Saturn already in the 5th, and you will give him 7 points instead of 9 as he would took if he was in 4th house. This can make big difference.

The free traditional astrology software - Morinus (google it), calcualte the Almutem Figuris. You can find this option by typing F3. But I should warn you that in that calculation is included some adding of points according to the planets phases. Zoller did not mention any kind of phases calculation so at this moment I'm not aware why the author of the software did included that.

But the best way and more enjoyable is to calculate it with your own hand. You will be familiar with the chart more deeply if you do this calculations with your own hand as the older astrologers did.
And if you must use the Morinus software than subtract the phases scores and you will get the Almutem Figuris right. All else is the same calculation as the Ezra/Zoller method.

Zoller gives short discriptions for every planet being Almutem Figuris:

Sun:
"If the Almuten figuris is the Sun, the native will want to lead, express his creative power and be recognized."

Moon:
"If the Moon, s/he will want to care for, be cared for, eat and make love, dream"

Mercury:
"If it is Mercury, s/he will be diligent in the sciences, business and communications"

Venus:
"Id it is Venus s/he will be a lover of beauty, of music, of men and women etc."

Mars:
"If it is Mars, s/he will fight in order to dominate"

Jupiter:
"If it is Jupiter, s/he will philosophize and teach"

Saturn:
"If it is Saturn he will retire from society, investigate hidden things and suffer adversity.""

JUPITERASC
02-17-2014, 04:30 PM
2) Do planets on MC affect temperament?

TEMPERAMENT ANALYSIS AND PLANETS - THEIR NATURES OR SIGNS? http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7763&highlight=temperament :smile:

QUOTE

'…..For me, if I use a method that looks at:

a) the Sign on the Ascendant
b) the Sign of the Ascendant's Ruler
c) the Sign of the Moon
d) Season of the Year (e.g., Summer-Choleric)

I get a very good match for me, and for several other charts--it is quick and simple, and combines key features of what most commentators believe affect temperament: Ascendant Sign and its Ruler, the Moon and the Sun. This works most of the time, I have found....'


'…...I can expand the analysis and 'fill it out' with a few others, and still maintain a proper ratio of temperament emphases:


e) the Signs of Planets that Aspect the Ascendant, Moon [and/or Sun]*
f) the Sign of the Sun
g) the Phase of the Moon.


* I bracketed the Sun here because it doesn't seem that too many commentators discuss aspects to the Sun, compared to aspects to the Moon or Ascendant.


I should note that I do not separate out Hot Cold, Dry Moist, but the combinations themselves. So Hot Dry = Choleric; Hot Moist = Sanguine; Cold Dry = Melancholic; Cold Wet = Phlegmatic. So I do not separate out the qualities themselves and then add those together--I know that others do do that.....'



'…...Now, this method also gets at the issue that I initially posed--should we use the Planet's SIGN or its NATURE? Again, for me, the results would be rather different and inconsistent with my actual temperament (fully noting the exceptions and examples given by Tom and others) if we went with the planets' intrinsic natures rather than signs. When the nature of one's Ascendant Ruler is of totally different nature than the nature of the Ascendant itself, you can get a mismatch--and the Aquarius/Saturn, Scorpio/Mars, are two striking examples of that.

Perhaps the lesson of all of this is to look as deeply as possible at the symbols, using the rules and conventions of astrological interpretation and delineation to help guide your thinking and analysis. And of course, to think deeply about the chart and the person in front of you--especially if that person is yourself.....'

digimon19
02-17-2014, 04:38 PM
Thank you for the answer,tee_jay66!

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-17-2014, 04:52 PM
1) How to choose Lord of Geniture if there is no planet with both essential and accidental dignity?

They don't have to have both accidental and essential dignity to be the Lord of Geniture (the calculation that JupiterAscn has given isn't for the Lord of Geniture, but for the Almuten of the Figure, which is a different thing entirely). What you'll want to do is just run through the list of placements in your chart with respect to the table on this page (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html) and whoever comes up with the highest score wins.

If there is a tie, go with the planet who is most elevated.

As for temperament, there are a couple of different ways to go about it. The short, Greenbaum version usually does the trick. In this you'll give two points to the Moon's Sign, the Asendant Sign, and the birth season, and then one point to the Lord of the First, the Almuten of the Ascendant degree, the Moon phase, and the Sign the Lord of the Moon is in.

It should equal ten points in all and you assign them based on a choleric/melancholic/sanguine/phelgmatic basis.

By that I mean your Sun is in Cancer, so you were born during the Summer, Summer is related to Choler, so you'd give two points to Choleric.

There are, of course, older more complex ways to calculate temperament which will take those and other placements into consideration, but in my experience the Greenbaum method matches up with them about 85% of the time. So I would start with that one until you get the hang of it.

2) Do planets on MC affect temperament?

Potentially, if they Square the Ascendant

digimon19
02-17-2014, 04:59 PM
TEMPERAMENT ANALYSIS AND PLANETS - THEIR NATURES OR SIGNS? http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7763&highlight=temperament :smile:

QUOTE

'…..For me, if I use a method that looks at:

a) the Sign on the Ascendant
b) the Sign of the Ascendant's Ruler
c) the Sign of the Moon
d) Season of the Year (e.g., Summer-Choleric)

'

Thank you very much JUPITERASC!
1)First, on Lord of the Chart. I know Ben-Ezra method but yeah, as I was thinking Lilly and Frawlety's geniture lord is somewhat different than Ezra's, isnt it? Frawley says that the planet should have both essential and accidental dignity. So by Ben Ezra method my almuten is Venus but it is peregrine. Leaving it aside, I can see that you do not even include Lord of the Chart into temperament analyses. But why is it so, when LoG is " was taken to affect the native's thoughts, beliefs and character" and "is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together"?

2)Yeah, I see that by the method you mentioned only Signs are taken into account. So I'm trying to calculate: a) the Sign on the Ascendant (Virgo -melancholic)
b) the Sign of the Ascendant's Ruler (Mercury in Cancer - Phlegmatic)
c) the Sign of the Moon (Gemini - Sanguine)
d) Season of the Year ( Summer-Choleric)
So it's balanced. But I appear as rather thin and short guy so I dont think my humours are in balance like that. If we even continue to count temperament with signs of planets aspecting Asc and Moon, I have a question cause I dont know whether I should count Venus in 11,14 Gem on Mc aspecting 16Vir Asc in mundo? Or which size of orb is counted?

Sorry for my bad English (maybe),
digimon19

digimon19
02-17-2014, 05:09 PM
They don't have to have both accidental and essential dignity to be the Lord of Geniture (the calculation that JupiterAscn has given isn't for the Lord of Geniture, but for the Almuten of the Figure, which is a different thing entirely). What you'll want to do is just run through the list of placements in your chart with respect to the table on this page (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html) and whoever comes up with the highest score wins.

If there is a tie, go with the planet who is most elevated.

As for temperament, there are a couple of different ways to go about it. The short, Greenbaum version usually does the trick. In this you'll give two points to the Moon's Sign, the Asendant Sign, and the birth season, and then one point to the Lord of the First, the Almuten of the Ascendant degree, the Moon phase, and the Sign the Lord of the Moon is in.

It should equal ten points in all and you assign them based on a choleric/melancholic/sanguine/phelgmatic basis.

By that I mean your Sun is in Cancer, so you were born during the Summer, Summer is related to Choler, so you'd give two points to Choleric.

There are, of course, older more complex ways to calculate temperament which will take those and other placements into consideration, but in my experience the Greenbaum method matches up with them about 85% of the time. So I would start with that one until you get the hang of it.



Thank you, Kaiousei no Senshi!
So we go with Greenbaum now!
Moon Sign - Gemini - Sanguine 2 points
Ascendant Sign - Vir - Melanch 2 points
Season - Choleric - 2
Lord of 1= Almuten of Asc= Mercury (as I remember Greenbaum uses intrinsic) Melancholic gets 2
Moon phase - last 27 lunar day - Phlegmatic (1 points) (although is it true that Ptolemey thinks this phase to be melancholic? )
Sign of Moon Lord - Gemini Moon--> Mercury in Cancer - Phlegma 1

Conclusion:Melancholic - 4 Sanguine -2 Phlegmatic - 2 Choleric -2. Am I correct with that? So my temperament is mostly Melancholic. How to check this? I think my appearance must prove it?

Zarathu
02-17-2014, 05:49 PM
How does Traditional Astrology define temperament?

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-17-2014, 06:23 PM
So we go with Greenbaum now!
Moon Sign - Gemini - Sanguine 2 points
Ascendant Sign - Vir - Melanch 2 points
Season - Choleric - 2
Lord of 1= Almuten of Asc= Mercury (as I remember Greenbaum uses intrinsic) Melancholic gets 2
Moon phase - last 27 lunar day - Phlegmatic (1 points) (although is it true that Ptolemey thinks this phase to be melancholic? )
Sign of Moon Lord - Gemini Moon--> Mercury in Cancer - Phlegma 1

Conclusion:Melancholic - 4 Sanguine -2 Phlegmatic - 2 Choleric -2. Am I correct with that? So my temperament is mostly Melancholic. How to check this? I think my appearance must prove it?

Yes, very good!

A good way to check your temperament is basically just to read about it and see if it fits you or not. If it doesn't then something went wrong, and you may be once of those cases where there is a difference between the Greenbaum short method and the more classical long method. That is probably the case since you have Mars almost right on the Ascendant and Square to the Moon, so that's a lot of choler right there. You're probably more a choleric/melancholic with an abundance of dryness than a pure melancholic.

The long method is more like this.

1) Sign Ascending and its lord.
2) Planets in the Ascendant or within a partile aspect of it
3) Moon's sign and planets aspecting her
4) Season
5) Lord of Geniture

And this one you do with qualities instead of full temperaments. I'll do number one for you to show you.

1) Sign Ascending and its lord Virgo (cold dry) and Mercury (hot dry) [because in this case Mercury is taking on the nature of the Sun since he is closest in aspect to him. You can also simply classify him as "hot" since he's oriental, whichever way makes more sense to you]

After you finish all the steps you'll be left with a list of the four qualities, and you'll cross off opposites (between hot and cold or dry and wet) until none remain on one side.

digimon19
02-17-2014, 06:37 PM
Yes, very good!

A good way to check your temperament is basically just to read about it and see if it fits you or not. If it doesn't then something went wrong, and you may be once of those cases where there is a difference between the Greenbaum short method and the more classical long method. That is probably the case since you have Mars almost right on the Ascendant and Square to the Moon, so that's a lot of choler right there. You're probably more a choleric/melancholic with an abundance of dryness than a pure melancholic.




Thank you, Kaiousei no Senshi!
When I read descriptions, I just have fit with all temperaments^_^
You just grasped it perfectly!
You know in childhood I was a pure choleric as my parents say but now turned to melancholic. At first, I thought temperament cant be changed so since I was a choleric baby I should stay it till my death. But I dont think it purely fits me now.
Abundness of dryness? I think dryness as quality means intensity, pressure?
Now gonna check 2nd method!

digimon19
02-17-2014, 06:47 PM
Yes, very good!

The long method is more like this.

1) Sign Ascending and its lord.
2) Planets in the Ascendant or within a partile aspect of it
3) Moon's sign and planets aspecting her
4) Season
5) Lord of Geniture

And this one you do with qualities instead of full temperaments. I'll do number one for you to show you.

1) Sign Ascending and its lord Virgo (cold dry) and Mercury (hot dry) [because in this case Mercury is taking on the nature of the Sun since he is closest in aspect to him. You can also simply classify him as "hot" since he's oriental, whichever way makes more sense to you]

After you finish all the steps you'll be left with a list of the four qualities, and you'll cross off opposites (between hot and cold or dry and wet) until none remain on one side.

2) Mars - occidental in Virgo so cold and dry
3) Moon - Gemini (hot and moist) with partile cold and very dry Mars, oriental very hot and very moist Venus and 'weak trine' with hot and moist Jupiter
4) Season hot and dry
5) LoG is Saturn or Mars - here not sure

So without LoG , previous conlcusions: +2 dry and +2 hot

Previously, I thought that Moon en Venus in mundane aspect to Asc will produce some phlegma

digimon19
02-17-2014, 06:54 PM
And joining to Mr Zarathu's question, could you explain what gives me knowing of my temperament. Mr John Frawley says that temperament is a path to God. But what practically can I obtain from this knowledge?

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-17-2014, 07:21 PM
2) Mars - occidental in Virgo so cold and dry

Curious as to why you have Mars as being cold? Because of the Sign? That's not being considered. Just the planet's temperament. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And joining to Mr Zarathu's question, could you explain what gives me knowing of my temperament. Mr John Frawley says that temperament is a path to God. But what practically can I obtain from this knowledge?

Personally, I would reconsider learning anything from John Frawley, or at the very least I wouldn't take it seriously.

I hate to do this because I know this isn't really the place, but I did (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/08/20/introduction-to-temperament/) a whole series (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/08/27/sanguine-the-temperament-of-spring-and-air/) on the temperaments (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/03/choler-the-temperament-of-summer-and-fire/) on my blog (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/10/melancholy-the-temperament-of-autumn-and-earth/) last year (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/17/phlegmatic-the-temperament-of-winter-and-water/). Maybe you can find (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/24/how-temperament-is-useful/) some of it useful (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/10/01/the-finale-how-temperament-changes/).

digimon19
02-17-2014, 07:31 PM
Curious as to why you have Mars as being cold? Because of the Sign? That's not being considered. Just the planet's temperament. Sorry if I wasn't clear.



Personally, I would reconsider learning anything from John Frawley, or at the very least I wouldn't take it seriously.

I hate to do this because I know this isn't really the place, but I did (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/08/20/introduction-to-temperament/) a whole series (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/08/27/sanguine-the-temperament-of-spring-and-air/) on the temperaments (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/03/choler-the-temperament-of-summer-and-fire/) on my blog (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/10/melancholy-the-temperament-of-autumn-and-earth/) last year (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/17/phlegmatic-the-temperament-of-winter-and-water/). Maybe you can find (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/09/24/how-temperament-is-useful/) some of it useful (http://starlightknightastrology.com/2013/10/01/the-finale-how-temperament-changes/).

Definitely, you helped me a lot on this question! Thank you for your help! Gonna read the articles.
Yeah, I understood, have to notice basic planet qualitites

tsmall
02-18-2014, 10:57 PM
How does Traditional Astrology define temperament?


It's easier to just link you to an article.

It might be easier to define temperament by what it is not. In the first place, it is not the same as personality, although personality can incorporate parts of someone's temperament in its expression. Personality is shaped by both internal and external factors, whereas temperament is entirely innate. Temperament is not character, though in some ways the two concepts have a commonality. Character can refer to the distinctive features or qualities that distinguish one form from another, and so is innate like temperament; but it also refers, at least in modern English connotation, to the moral nature of a person. The original Greek meaning of the word carakt»r (charaktēr) is "stamp," as in something used to make an impression in wax or metal. So character is an impression on the person which, in that connotation, implies something from without (parental or societal) rather than within.
Temperament, by contrast, is inherent. We are born with our temperaments, and while there may be overlays of one temperamental style or another during our lives, what we get is what we keep. A card-carrying phlegmatic does not suddenly become a raging choleric. Any mother of more than one child can see temperamental differences in her offspring almost from the moment of birth, qualities which only become more pronounced as her children age. Such differences have even been the subject of books on child development.[2] So temperament really has to do with a person's nature or disposition

http://www.classicalastrology.org/temperament.html

Zarathu
02-18-2014, 11:11 PM
http://www.classicalastrology.org/temperament.html

Sounds like what Carl Jung tried to do, and what Myers and Briggs did when they developed their assessment device, and what David Keirsey did when he developed his Temperament Sorter.

The Myers-Briggs has turned out to be the most researched evaluation device in the history of psychology. I used the Murphy Meisgier with Children and the Temperament sorter with adults.

Do any of you have any familiarity with these instruments so that you can compare them to traditional astrology's views here?

tsmall
02-18-2014, 11:38 PM
Sounds like what Carl Jung tried to do, and what Myers and Briggs did when they developed their assessment device, and what David Keirsey did when he developed his Temperament Sorter.

The Myers-Briggs has turned out to be the most researched evaluation device in the history of psychology. I used the Murphy Meisgier with Children and the Temperament sorter with adults.

Do any of you have any familiarity with these instruments so that you can compare them to traditional astrology's views here?

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47630

oh, and this one.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44049

JUPITERASC
02-18-2014, 11:55 PM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen! I' m just wondering if someone could help me with the assessment of temperament
'…...In traditional technique,
establishing the prominent temperament in an individual served two major purposes

Firstly, it gave an understanding of the person's demeanour, for:

... the manners and motions of the mind,
and the greatest part of our principall humane actions and events of life,
doe accompany, or are concomitant with,
and acted according to the quality of the Temperature and inclinations. (C.A., p.534)

Secondly, it gave the Astrologer
("and indeed none else are fit to make physicians" - Culpeper)
a basis from which he could understand what imbalances were prevalent in his patient's body
and prescribe accordingly......' Scott Whitters http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sanguine.html


'…..The four humours
comprise the qualities of either heat or coldness and moisture or dryness.

Heat was seen to disperse while coldness condensed.
Moisture received while dryness resisted.

Each temperament corresponds to one of the four bodily humours responsible for the overall functioning of the body :smile:
- the choleric temperament (hot and dry) corresponds with yellow bile and has its seat in the gall bladder,
the phlegmatic temperament (cold and moist) corresponds with phlegm whose seat is in the lungs,
melancholy (cold and dry) corresponds with black bile from the spleen
and sanguine (hot and moist) corresponds with blood from the liver.......'