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socrates
02-09-2014, 04:20 PM
hi
if like hellenic astrologers claim,aquarius is often rebellious because it is suns detrimento,rather than due to Uranus influence,how come that Suns fall,libra,isnt normally rebellious?

thanks

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 05:21 PM
hi
if like hellenic astrologers claim,aquarius is often rebellious because it is suns detrimento,rather than due to Uranus influence,how come that Suns fall,libra,isnt normally rebellious?

thanks
To assist with responding to your question
would be helpful if you name
the various currently unspecified 'hellenic astrologers'
that your comment vaguely refers to

As well as these apparently numerous specific quotes
comprising their alleged claims :smile:

socrates
02-09-2014, 06:04 PM
To assist with responding to your question
would be helpful if you name
the various currently unspecified 'hellenic astrologers'
that your comment vaguely refers to

As well as these apparently numerous specific quotes
comprising their alleged claims :smile:

http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/signs/aquarius-sun.html

certainly.At skyscript many avoid the slow planets,but not all.and the one in the link talks about aquarian rebellious nature

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 06:16 PM
.....how come that Suns fall,
libra,
isnt normally rebellious?

thanks
A few famous Librans :smile:


Aleister Crowley

Groucho Marx

Heinrich Himmler

John Lennon

Bob Geldof

Reverend Jesse Jackson

Sarah Ferguson

Friedrich Nietzsche

Oscar Wilde

Evel Knievel

John Profumo

Timothy Leary

Sylvia Kars

Lee Harvey Oswald

Fred West

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 06:20 PM
http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/signs/aquarius-sun.html

certainly.At skyscript many avoid the slow planets,but not all.and the one in the link talks about aquarian rebellious nature
The link has no quotes from specific 'hellenic astrologers' :smile:

socrates
02-09-2014, 06:35 PM
The link has no quotes from specific 'hellenic astrologers' :smile:
i dont remembre all but Mark the moderator is one

socrates
02-09-2014, 06:36 PM
A few famous Librans :smile:


Aleister Crowley

Groucho Marx

Heinrich Himmler

John Lennon

Bob Geldof

Reverend Jesse Jackson

Sarah Ferguson

Friedrich Nietzsche

Oscar Wilde

Evel Knievel

John Profumo

Timothy Leary

Sylvia Kars

Lee Harvey Oswald

Fred West

cherry picked?
the point is that a lot is made out of aquarius the rebel,because of Uranus or Sun being detrimentbut nothing is said about libra, save that theyre often gay,like Oscar Wilde and two guys i met.
ive never seen a rebellious libra,what they do is try to make up for their weaknesses by looking morally superior,like in "you guys have no manners,dont know how to treat a lady" etc

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 06:55 PM
cherry picked?
the point is that a lot is made out of aquarius the rebel,
because of Uranus
or Sun being detriment
Sun is in detriment in Aquarius,
Aquarius is the traditional domicile of Saturn
but nothing is said about libra,
The sole link provided
is a traditional link
discussing Sun being in detriment in Aquarius
Aquarius is of course, as already mentioned
a traditional domicile of Saturn
Sun is not in detriment in Libra
So therefore 'nothing is said about Libra'
at the link provided
.....save that theyre often gay,
like Oscar Wilde and two guys i met.
Not all Librans are gay
and
Not all Aquarians are rebels
ive never seen a rebellious libra,
So these Librans are ignored.....

Aleister Crowley

Groucho Marx

Heinrich Himmler

John Lennon

Bob Geldof

Reverend Jesse Jackson

Sarah Ferguson

Friedrich Nietzsche

Oscar Wilde

Evel Knievel

John Profumo

Timothy Leary

Sylvia Kars

Lee Harvey Oswald

Fred West
.....what they do is try to make up for their weaknesses by looking morally superior,like in "you guys have no manners,dont know how to treat a lady" etc
Obviously then

Librans vary,
dependent on the sign location
and house location
of Libra's domicile ruler Venus
and
the sign location
and house location
of Libra's exalted ruler Saturn

all of which proves

that generalization
according to sun sign alone
is unreliable :smile:

socrates
02-09-2014, 07:30 PM
Sun is in detriment in Aquarius,
Aquarius is the traditional domicile of Saturn

The sole link provided
is a traditional link
discussing Sun being in detriment in Aquarius
Aquarius is of course, as already mentioned
a traditional domicile of Saturn
Sun is not in detriment in Libra
So therefore 'nothing is said about Libra'
at the link provided

Not all Librans are gay
and
Not all Aquarians are rebels

So these Librans are ignored.....

Aleister Crowley

Groucho Marx

Heinrich Himmler

John Lennon

Bob Geldof

Reverend Jesse Jackson

Sarah Ferguson

Friedrich Nietzsche

Oscar Wilde

Evel Knievel

John Profumo

Timothy Leary

Sylvia Kars

Lee Harvey Oswald

Fred West

Obviously then

Librans vary,
dependent on the sign location
and house location
of Libra's domicile ruler Venus
and
the sign location
and house location
of Libra's exalted ruler Saturn

all of which proves

that generalization
according to sun sign alone
is unreliable :smile:

then how do astrologers know sun sign traits in the 1st place?
how do they know capricorn is ambitious,etc

sun is in fall in libra by the way

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 08:46 PM
then how do astrologers know sun sign traits in the 1st place?

how do they know capricorn is ambitious,etc
These 'sun sign traits' are based on/derived from
thousands of years of observations by ancient visual astrologers
who observed the real skies
and not computers
or computer generated charts :smile:

i.e.
ancient astrologers noticed
by direct observation
that people

born when certain groupings of stars
were rising
or setting
or directly overhead

exhibited characteristics in common
.....sun is in fall in libra by the way
Exactly

By the way,
Detriment
is very different
from
Fall

QUOTE

UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY DIGNITY AND DEBILITY http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html


'…...As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence; wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall.

For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery, whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery. (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)....'


QUOTE

'…..If a planet is situated in a sign which opposes its own it is said to be in detriment, a word which literally means to be harmed or damaged. Since a planet's own sign is regarded as its stronghold, it follows that the furthest sign from this should be viewed as its most vulnerable position.

Similarly, just as signs of exaltation are said to elevate the planetary influences to their highest level, their opposing signs are known as signs of fall, because here the planets suffer loss of strength and a reduction of potency.....'

QUOTE

'…..detriment or fall is precarious condition, especially if planet is peregrine/otherwise afflicted. Many planets debilitated in nativity shows obscurity/low birth.
" wretched, poor, low of birth and constantly plagued by had luck" - Firmicus(Mathesis, 2.3.3).

How planet 'responds' to another sign from which it receives an aspect:
"Be not too confident either of a sextile or trine Aspect in violent Signs, nor out of those Signs in which the Planets behold one another, yet essentially suffer" - William Lilly

Capricorn Venus benefits more from Taurus trine
than Virgo trine
Taurus associates Venus with her sign of dominion
Virgo links Venus to her sign of fall.....'

socrates
02-09-2014, 09:19 PM
These 'sun sign traits' are based on/derived from
thousands of years of observations by ancient visual astrologers
who observed the real skies
and not computers
or computer generated charts :smile:

i.e.
ancient astrologers noticed
by direct observation
that people

born when certain groupings of stars
were rising
or setting
or directly overhead

exhibited characteristics in common

Exactly

By the way,
Detriment
is very different
from
Fall

QUOTE

UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY DIGNITY AND DEBILITY http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html


'...As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence; wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall.

For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery, whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery. (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)....'


QUOTE

'..If a planet is situated in a sign which opposes its own it is said to be in detriment, a word which literally means to be harmed or damaged. Since a planet's own sign is regarded as its stronghold, it follows that the furthest sign from this should be viewed as its most vulnerable position.

Similarly, just as signs of exaltation are said to elevate the planetary influences to their highest level, their opposing signs are known as signs of fall, because here the planets suffer loss of strength and a reduction of potency.....'

QUOTE

'..detriment or fall is precarious condition, especially if planet is peregrine/otherwise afflicted. Many planets debilitated in nativity shows obscurity/low birth.
" wretched, poor, low of birth and constantly plagued by had luck" - Firmicus(Mathesis, 2.3.3).

How planet 'responds' to another sign from which it receives an aspect:
"Be not too confident either of a sextile or trine Aspect in violent Signs, nor out of those Signs in which the Planets behold one another, yet essentially suffer" - William Lilly

Capricorn Venus benefits more from Taurus trine
than Virgo trine
Taurus associates Venus with her sign of dominion
Virgo links Venus to her sign of fall.....'

1000s of years?
that still doesnt answer the question on sun signs.With so many influences,like planets,angles,lots etc it would be very difficult,even today,what belongs to the sun sign and what doesnt
And anyway id be surprised if,with the means we have today,modern astrologers wouldnt do a better job

JUPITERASC
02-09-2014, 10:39 PM
i dont remembre all but Mark the moderator is one
A definition of your intended meaning would be helpful :smile:

socrates
02-10-2014, 12:20 AM
A definition of your intended meaning would be helpful :smile:

youre trying to avoid the question.
ask there who doesnt use the slow planets. Youll get many positive responses

JUPITERASC
02-10-2014, 01:20 AM
youre trying to avoid the question.
ask there who doesnt use the slow planets. Youll get many positive responses
The title of thread is 'suns fall in libra'
Fall is a debility

TABLE OF COMMONLY USED ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES AND DEBILITIES - there are alternatives :smile:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif

dr. farr
02-10-2014, 03:23 AM
I think the Sun is said to Fall in Libra because if we use the equator, Libra is at the 0 point of the equatorial band, so one could state that what happens here is that the Sun "falls" toward the equator when in Libra: personally I believe that the entire matter of exaltation and fall, arose when the equator-rather than the ecliptic-was the key circle in astrology (that would have been in ancient Egyptian and Sumerian times-note that the equator remains the "key circle" to this day, in Chinese astrology)

mutableflame
02-13-2014, 10:50 PM
I could give the systematic reasons for how Astrologers delineate the fall of the Sun to be in Libra, but more to the point of the symbolism in human nature:

A true Libra (for this purpose it's raw archetypical form rather than the practical reality of it's incarnations) doesn't emulate the raw characteristics of the Sun. Libras focus a great deal on others, and have a strong need for a partner or general companionship. They have traits of compromise, consideration, diplomacy, indecisiveness. All of which serve to filter the raw aspects/traits of what the Sun represents in Astrology.

mutableflame
02-13-2014, 10:59 PM
Though they are not devoid of the Sun's traits, just filter it's raw expressions. Libra's aren't necessarily altruistic nor codependent and can be rather egocentric like any Sun sign.

JUPITERASC
02-13-2014, 11:23 PM
I could give the systematic reasons for how Astrologers delineate the fall of the Sun to be in Libra, but more to the point of the symbolism in human nature:

A true Libra (for this purpose it's raw archetypical form rather than the practical reality of it's incarnations) doesn't emulate the raw characteristics of the Sun. Libras focus a great deal on others, and have a strong need for a partner or general companionship. They have traits of compromise, consideration, diplomacy, indecisiveness. All of which serve to filter the raw aspects/traits of what the Sun represents in Astrology.
A natal chart with sun Libra delineates differently dependent on Venus sign and house location
as well as aspects to and from Venus to other natal planets :smile:
Though they are not devoid of the Sun's traits, just filter it's raw expressions. Libra's aren't necessarily altruistic nor codependent and can be rather egocentric like any Sun sign.
Consider also Saturn
because
Saturn is exalted ruler of Libra
therefore
sign and house location of natal Saturn is another factor to consider
when delineating Libra Sun natal charts

dr. farr
02-14-2014, 03:34 AM
Ptolemy gives several "reasons" for the exaltation (and, by implication, the fall) of planets in specific signs, in his "Tetrabiblos"-although I am not a "Ptolemy worshipper" by any means, still he has (in my opinion) many valuable points to make in the "Tetrabiblos" and in the "Almagest".

socrates
02-15-2014, 08:55 PM
I think the Sun is said to Fall in Libra because if we use the equator, Libra is at the 0 point of the equatorial band, so one could state that what happens here is that the Sun "falls" toward the equator when in Libra: personally I believe that the entire matter of exaltation and fall, arose when the equator-rather than the ecliptic-was the key circle in astrology (that would have been in ancient Egyptian and Sumerian times-note that the equator remains the "key circle" to this day, in Chinese astrology)

ye they dont care about latitude,which spares them our problems

Rick
08-27-2014, 09:36 PM
Sun's fall is in Scorpio, actually. One square after Leo. Makes a lot more sense doesnt it? Rebellious and evil Scorpio....

JUPITERASC
08-27-2014, 09:53 PM
Sun's fall is in Scorpio, actually.

One square after Leo.
Makes a lot more sense doesnt it? Rebellious and evil Scorpio....


MOON'S FALL IS SCORPIO :smile:



http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif

Rick
08-27-2014, 11:55 PM
Nope. That doesnt make sense. Note that this is a new idea, try and keep an open mind...:)

JUPITERASC
08-28-2014, 08:07 PM
Nope. That doesnt make sense. Note that this is a new idea, try and keep an open mind...:)

that's advice for you to consider also :smile:

Rick
08-29-2014, 11:28 AM
that's advice for you to consider also :smile:
No it's not. Your ideas are old and arguably stale.

JUPITERASC
08-29-2014, 12:27 PM
No it's not. Your ideas are old and arguably stale.

the universe is also very old :smile:

and
you seem to be of the opinion
that you are exempt from your own advice to 'keep an open mind'