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jeaflor
01-23-2014, 05:10 PM
I am doing some research on the Star of Bethlehem. There was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus on June 17, 2 BC followed by an August 27, 2 BC Jupiter/Mars conjunction. Then Jupiter supposedly continued to move until it was directly over Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BC.

I need to find out when Jupiter was occulted by the sun during the 3-2 BC time period. The Gospel of Matthew reports that the Star was not continually visible to the Wise Men so it did not lead them directly to Bethlehem. But it reappeared after the Wise Men had met with King Herod. I wonít accept the weather as a factor in this because I wonít accept that God sent the Wise Men to Herod. The only other explanation I can think of for the Starís invisibility is an occultation by the sun. But, I cannot find anything online to tell me when an occultation may have happened in 3-2 BC, and I donít know enough about astronomy to be able to use any planetarium software to run a simulation.

I am also trying to clear up some discrepancies in my research. My sources all say that Jupiter appeared motionless over Bethlehem because of retrograde motion, but the sources do not all agree on how long the motionless period lasted- anywhere from a few days to almost a month.

Also, the Cape Cod Astronomical Society put out a newsletter in December 2010 with a schedule for 2 BC that includes another Jupiter/Venus conjunction on October 13. I have not seen any mention of this particular conjunction in any of my other sources. This makes me want to question the validity of computer-based astronomical simulations. Just how accurate are they?

I tried to ask these questions on several astronomy forums, but I have been banned because I dared try to talk about a religious topic. Iíve told the moderators of these forums to go to hell and will do the same here should I get a similar reaction. I have severe arthritis in my arms, shoulders and hands so I donít appreciate having my time wasted. I am not here to preach anything, and I wouldnít give you 2 cents for all the churches in the world. All I am doing is asking some questions.

JUPITERASC
01-23-2014, 09:26 PM
I am doing some research on the Star of Bethlehem. There was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus on June 17, 2 BC followed by an August 27, 2 BC Jupiter/Mars conjunction. Then Jupiter supposedly continued to move until it was directly over Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BC.

I need to find out when Jupiter was occulted by the sun during the 3-2 BC time period.
The answer is that planets are USUALLY invisible during daytime due to the brightness of our Sun.

and

the Sun is below the horizon at night time
therefore cannot have 'occulted' Jupiter at night time
although certainly, during the day,
the Sun may well have conjuncted Jupiter
The Gospel of Matthew reports that the Star was not continually visible to the Wise Men so it did not lead them directly to Bethlehem. But it reappeared after the Wise Men had met with King Herod.
Stars are visible at night time.
The Wise Men are therefore likely to have been following the star at night time.
I wonít accept the weather as a factor in this because I wonít accept that God sent the Wise Men to Herod.
Since the star was only visible at night time

then clearly the Sun
being invisible at night time
is not involved in any 'occultation' at night time

HOWEVER

The Moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Saturn
could all have possibly 'occulted' Jupiter at some stage during 3 - 2 BC


2 BC

17 June

17:53 UT

45oW 26"
32",28" Venus Jupiter diameters

Very Large Elongation
Occurs over Middle East
http://www.bogan.ca/astro/occultations/2bc_area.gif



http://www.bogan.ca/astro/occultations/2bc_tele.gif
The only other explanation I can think of for the Starís invisibility is an occultation by the sun.
BUT
as I previously highlighted
The Sun cannot occult any star at night time
But, I cannot find anything online to tell me when an occultation may have happened in 3-2 BC, and I donít know enough about astronomy to be able to use any planetarium software to run a simulation.

I found a near occultation in 2 BC :smile:


http://www.bogan.ca/astro/occultations/west_2bc.gif
I am also trying to clear up some discrepancies in my research. My sources all say that Jupiter appeared motionless over Bethlehem because of retrograde motion, but the sources do not all agree on how long the motionless period lasted- anywhere from a few days to almost a month.

Also, the Cape Cod Astronomical Society put out a newsletter in December 2010 with a schedule for 2 BC that includes another Jupiter/Venus conjunction on October 13. I have not seen any mention of this particular conjunction in any of my other sources. This makes me want to question the validity of computer-based astronomical simulations. Just how accurate are they?

I tried to ask these questions on several astronomy forums, but I have been banned because I dared try to talk about a religious topic. Iíve told the moderators of these forums to go to hell and will do the same here should I get a similar reaction. I have severe arthritis in my arms, shoulders and hands so I donít appreciate having my time wasted. I am not here to preach anything, and I wouldnít give you 2 cents for all the churches in the world. All I am doing is asking some questions.

jeaflor
01-23-2014, 10:35 PM
the Sun is below the horizon at night time
therefore cannot have 'occulted' Jupiter at night time

Occulted simply means blocked from view. There are certain times during Jupiterís orbit around the sun relative to the earth that the sun is between the earth and Jupiter. This means that Jupiter cannot be seen from the earth at all. As near as I can tell it takes Jupiter 398.9 earth days to make a complete circuit across the earthís sky, i.e., return to the same place in the sky relative to the sun and background stars. During the last 33.65 days of this period Jupiter appears too close to the sun to be visible from the earth. But then at the start of the period Jupiter has a helical rising meaning it can be seen in the sky around sunrise.


Stars are visible at night time.
The Wise Men are therefore likely to have been following the star at night time.

No. The Wise Men would have made their daily observations of the sky, likely both in the predawn morning and post-sunset evening. They would have traveled in between. They likely attached themselves to one of the trade caravans that routinely connected Europe and China.

The Moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Saturn
could all have possibly 'occulted' Jupiter at some stage during 3 - 2 BC

Iíve thought of these possibilities, but I doubt that they would have been a factor time wise. My thinking is that the Wise Men saw the conjunctions and planetary massings that took place in 3-2 BC, realized what they meant and then set out for Judea.

They knew enough of the Bible to know that Christ was born in Bethlehem, but they did not arrive until after He was born. At some point between the time the Wise Men began their journey and the time they arrived in Judea Jupiter was occulted by the sun and thus could not lead the Wise Men to the place where Christ was then living.

So the Wise Men went to Jerusalem and starting asking around if anybody knew where the new King of the Jews was living (not where He had been born). King Herod learned about all of this and consulted with his scribes (his own wise men), and then had a meeting with the easterners and told them that Christ was born in Bethlehem. But the Wise Men already knew this and were likely scratching their heads at what Herod told them. But then Jupiter had a heliacal rising and lead the Wise Men to the house where Christ was living.

I donít know that an occultation by the moon or another planet would have allowed enough time for the Wise Menís encounter with Herod.

JUPITERASC
01-23-2014, 10:52 PM
Occulted simply means blocked from view. There are certain times during Jupiterís orbit around the sun relative to the earth that the sun is between the earth and Jupiter. This means that Jupiter cannot be seen from the earth at all. As near as I can tell it takes Jupiter 398.9 earth days to make a complete circuit across the earthís sky, i.e., return to the same place in the sky relative to the sun and background stars. During the last 33.65 days of this period Jupiter appears too close to the sun to be visible from the earth. But then at the start of the period Jupiter has a helical rising meaning it can be seen in the sky around sunrise.
Exactly.... Sun occulting or blocking Jupiter from view meant Jupiter was invisible around sunrise
No. The Wise Men would have made their daily observations of the sky, likely both in the predawn morning and post-sunset evening. They would have traveled in between. They likely attached themselves to one of the trade caravans that routinely connected Europe and China.
PREDAWN = BEFORE SUNRISE

BEFORE SUNRISE = NIGHT TIME :smile:

POST SUNSET = NIGHT TIME

So
The Wise Men made their daily observations at night
even if
they then traveled by day
Iíve thought of these possibilities, but I doubt that they would have been a factor time wise. My thinking is that the Wise Men saw the conjunctions and planetary massings that took place in 3-2 BC, realized what they meant and then set out for Judea.

They knew enough of the Bible to know that Christ was born in Bethlehem, but they did not arrive until after He was born. At some point between the time the Wise Men began their journey and the time they arrived in Judea Jupiter was occulted by the sun and thus could not lead the Wise Men to the place where Christ was then living.

So the Wise Men went to Jerusalem and starting asking around if anybody knew where the new King of the Jews was living (not where He had been born). King Herod learned about all of this and consulted with his scribes (his own wise men), and then had a meeting with the easterners and told them that Christ was born in Bethlehem. But the Wise Men already knew this and were likely scratching their heads at what Herod told them. But then Jupiter had a heliacal rising and lead the Wise Men to the house where Christ was living.

I donít know that an occultation by the moon or another planet would have allowed enough time for the Wise Menís encounter with Herod.


KIDGER, author of "The Star of Bethlehem: An Astronomer's View,"

states that occultations aren't rare

and so wouldn't have excited seasoned skywatchers

and noted

that the moon occulted various planets

almost 200 times between 20 B.C. and 1 B.C.

JUPITERASC
01-23-2014, 11:17 PM
QUOTE


'Ö...M.R. MOLNAR, QJRAS 1995
has presented a detailed case for his proposal
that the Magi's star,
or star of Bethlehem of the New Testament gospel of St. Matthew,
may be identified with a pair of astrologically significant lunar occultations
of Jupiter in Aries on 6 BC March 20 and April 17.
We have the identification of further contemporary astronomical events,
a pair of occultations of Saturn in Pisces,
which may be capable of astrological interpretation as ``omens'' supporting Molnar's hypothesis.
We also show that Molnar's model horoscope for the birth of Christ
requires a remarkably rare set of circumstances......'



'...Molnar's suggested identification of the star of Bethlehem fits circumstance described by St. Matthew:
Magi came to Judaea believing a king had been born,
but Herod's advisors, non-astrologers,
had not seen the portent because it took place when it would have been invisible,
and would have been known only to astrologers.


Molnar proposed a new interpretation of the Magi seeing the star ``in the east,''
which can be read in its astrological meaning ``at the rising''.
But the Greek phrase could be a common ancient mistake
for the technical term meaning ``at heliacal rising''
or rising with the Sun. Ö.'


LUNAR OCCULTATION OF JUPITER AND SATURN - STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~mmd/star.html (http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/%7Emmd/star.html) :smile:


'Ö.Molnar observed
that the second occultation provided a confirming omen to the Magi
because it took place in general direction of Bethlehem as seen from their location in Jerusalem.
Molnar argued the Magi
(``wise men'')
were astrologers able to predict occultations
from their observations of the Moon
and empirical knowledge of its complicated path.
Occultations were particularly significant astrological events,
especially in association with heliacal risings,
even if invisible to the eye
because they took place after setting
or during the middle of day.
In Magian astrology,
importance of lunar conjunction
was dependent on proximity of Moon to the other object,
with an occultation being a particularly powerful form of close conjunction....'

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 01:31 AM
Wise Men would not take much notice of normal celestial events that happen one at a time. But the years 3 and 2 BC saw a series of ďnormalĒ events that taken together were extremely rare. These events also coincided with historical events that back up the Bibleís historical record.

(Ernest L. Martin, The Star That Astonished The World)

May
19
3 BC
Saturn and Mercury are in close conjunction.
June
12
3 BC
Saturn, moving eastward from its May 19 conjunction with Mercury is in conjunction with Venus.
August
12
3 BC
Jupiter and Venus are in close conjunction as the morning star while in the last degrees of Cancer which marked the end of the astrological year.

The sun, moon and Mercury are massed in Leo.
Summer

3 BC
A decree goes out from Rome ordering Roman citizens and prominent people in Romeís client kingdoms to register an oath that Augustus is the Father of the Country.

I donít accept Martinís interpretation of this oath taking. If King Herod wasnít keeping an eye on Mary and Joseph because of their royal Davidic ancestry, as paranoid as he was, there is no way the Romans paid them any attention. Furthermore, the Jewish historian Josephus recorded that shortly before Herod died he was embarrassed when several thousand Jewish religious leaders refused to take a loyalty oath to Augustus. This would indicate a general empire-wide Roman census. Mary and Joseph werenít singled out.
September
01
3 BC
Mercury is in conjunction with Venus while in Leo and the sun has just entered Virgo and Jupiter has just entered Leo.
September
11
3 BC
The sun is situated in the midpoint, the abdominal region, of Virgo with the moon situated at her feet. According to Martin this matches Revelation chapter 12.
September
14
3 BC
Jupiter makes the 1st of the 3 conjunctions with Regulus, the brightest star in Leo.
December
01
3 BC
Jupiter enters its annual retrograde motion as seen from the earth and is seen to be moving again towards Regulus.
February
05
2 BC
The Roman Senate formally grants the title Pater Patriae to Emperor Augustus.
February
17
2 BC
Jupiter makes the 2nd of 3 conjunctions with Regulus as the moon is positioned between Jupiter and Regulus. The lower 1/5 of the moonís diameter is covering Regulus.
March
29
2 BC
Jupiter concludes its retrograde motion and begins forward motion and is seen moving towards Regulus for the 3rd time since the summer of 3 BC.
May
8
2 BC
Jupiter and Regulus are in conjunction for the 3rd time since the summer of 3 BC. The top 1/5 of the moonís diameter covers Regulus.
June
17
2 BC
Jupiter and Venus are in an extremely close conjunction as the evening star in the first degrees of the constellation Leo marking the start of the astrological year. They appear in the western night sky as a single star to the naked eye. A full moon appears in the eastern sky.

To the Romans Leo denotes royalty and Jupiter was taken as the guardian of the Roman Empire with the day of the full moon being sacred as ďthe Trust of JupiterĒ while Venus was the mother of Augustusí family. So this conjunction was seen as a sign of Romeís domination. The two conjunctions of Jupiter and Venus (May 19, 3 BC and June 17, 2 BC) as the last morning star of the old astrological year and the first evening star of the new astrological year could have been taken by the Romans as the end of one era and the start of another.

Roman Wise Men had their own interpretation of the celestial events, and if they hadnít read Genesis they wouldnít know to associate Leo the Lion with the Jews, so the Romans, and likely the Greeks as well, did not realize the true meaning of what they saw in the sky.

Herodís Wise Men would have known about Genesis so they would have known what the celestial events meant. But they also knew King Herod so they either ignored what they saw, agreed with the Roman interpretation, or else they came up with some other interpretation to tell Herod hoping they could save some lives.
August
27
2 BC
Jupiter is in conjunction with Mars in Leo when the moon, Venus and Mercury are also in Leo while the sun is entering Virgo.

Jupiter then begins moving westward day by day.

The entire Roman Empire concludes the celebration of the 750th anniversary of the founding of the City of Rome along with Augustusí 25 year as emperor.
December
25
2 BC
On the 3rd day of Hanukah Jupiter, positioned in the abdomen section of Virgo, appears to stop in the predawn sky over Bethlehem as it completes its forward motion and begins retrograde motion. Due to the differences in their orbital speeds Jupiterís retrograde movement cannot be detected from the earth for a period of 6 days.

Other sources say that Jupiter was stationary over Bethlehem for as long as a month, and this makes me question the accuracy of the computer software used to determine this celestial schedule.

I had this schedule as a table in an MS Word document. The table format doesnít translate to message boards. I hope itís not too difficult to follow.

dr. farr
01-24-2014, 03:09 AM
There has been some discussion that the Star of Bethlehem was a Grand Conjunction of Jupiter & Saturn; this occurs every 20 or so years-when did that occur during the period of time under discussion (early years BC)?

poyi
01-24-2014, 04:24 AM
I am being a bit of a skeptic here with my common sense talking. IF it was a combination of astrological event by 2014-16 years later this astrological event should have reoccurred already due to their regular cycles of known patterns of the planets. Jupiter Saturn conjunction every 20 years not really enough to be a big deal. Or it might be a once off comet, or as erratic as it may sound it was a spaceship lol or a group of angles even in more religious explanation. Cause anything in the sky that reflects light at night can be like a Star.

poyi
01-24-2014, 04:29 AM
This news article also mentioned about the possiblity of new nova or the planet Uranus.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20730828

If it was a major cosmic event it would worth researching to see if the ancient astrologers from Egypt, Babylon had ever mentioned such prediction. They are long known as the night sky watchers.

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 11:20 AM
I am being a bit of a skeptic here with my common sense talking. IF it was a combination of astrological event by 2014-16 years later this astrological event should have reoccurred already due to their regular cycles of known patterns of the planets. Jupiter Saturn conjunction every 20 years not really enough to be a big deal. Or it might be a once off comet, or as erratic as it may sound it was a spaceship lol or a group of angles even in more religious explanation. Cause anything in the sky that reflects light at night can be like a Star.

There is nothing in Matthewís account to suggest the Star was anything unnatural. The Greek word translated as star is the same word used to mean star elsewhere in the New Testament. Matthew doesnít explain the Star as if it was miraculous, and if it had been something like angels, there was no reason for Matthew to not have said as much.

In the ancient world comets were feared. They were taken as bad omens.

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 11:32 AM
This news article also mentioned about the possiblity of new nova or the planet Uranus.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20730828

If it was a major cosmic event it would worth researching to see if the ancient astrologers from Egypt, Babylon had ever mentioned such prediction. They are long known as the night sky watchers.

I think it was in Michael Molnarís book The Star of Bethlehem The Legacy of the Magi that I first read about the conjunction in Pisces. It is claimed that Pisces was associated with the Jews, but I cannot find anything to document this. And when you take Genesis 49:9 (Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?) into consideration it makes more sense to associate the constellation Leo with the Jews.

poyi
01-24-2014, 04:25 PM
I don't think Leo is specifically talking about the Jew as Egyptian used Sirius and Orion for building their pyramids. Pisces is thought to be relevant to Jew maybe because Jesus fed them with fishes and bread Virgo/Pisces. And more relevant stories about Virgo and Pisces in the bible as well.

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 04:52 PM
@Pisces is thought to be relevant to Jew maybe because Jesus fed them with fishes and bread Virgo/Pisces.
That’s the only connection I can think of, but it is after the fact. It didn’t happen until after the Star of Bethlehem had appeared.

JUPITERASC
01-24-2014, 09:01 PM
I am being a bit of a skeptic here with my common sense talking. IF it was a combination of astrological event by 2014-16 years later this astrological event should have reoccurred already due to their regular cycles of known patterns of the planets.

Jupiter Saturn conjunction every 20 years not really enough to be a big deal.

A Jupiter Saturn conjunction occur every 20 years, occasionally repeating due to one or both planets being retrograde
and each successive conjunction
excluding retrograde repeats
advances approximately 243 degrees
relative to its predecessor.



Every third conjunction
- once every 60 years -
brings the alignment back to its starting place
plus approximately 9 degrees:
and is known as the first order recurrence of the conjunction.


Every 40th conjunction
Ė once every 800 years - :smile:
brings the alignment back to within 1 degree of its starting place:
the approximate 800 year cycle
is known as the second order recurrence,
astrologically known as
the Great Mutation cycle.


QUOTE

'....The so-called "Star of Bethlehem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem)"
Ė thought to have appeared c. 7 BC Ė
was theorized to be a greatest conjunction;
and some went so far as to assert that it was an occultation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occultation) of Saturn by Jupiter,
with the two planets appearing to merge into a single object
as seen from Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth).
However such an event did not take place at historic times.

At the greatest conjunction in 7 BC,
which is said to be the "Star of Bethlehem",
the minimum distance between Jupiter and Saturn
was around 1 degree, this is twice the Moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon)'s diameter.

The next occultation of Saturn by Jupiter will take place in 7541.....'

QUOTE

'....As successive great conjunctions occur nearly 120į apart, their appearances form a triangular pattern.

In a series every fourth conjunction returns after some 60 years in the vicinity of the first.

These returns are observed to be shifted by some 7-8į, so no more than four of them occur in the same zodiacal sign.

To each sign astrologers have ascribed one from the series of four elements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element) and thus four triplicities or 'trigons' are formed.

Particular importance has been accorded to the occurrence of a great conjunction in a new trigon, which is bound to happen after some 200 years at most. Even greater importance was attributed to the beginning of a new cycle after all fours trigons had been visited, something which happens in about 800 years.....'
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Keplers_trigon.jpg/250px-Keplers_trigon.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keplers_trigon.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.23wmf10/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keplers_trigon.jpg)
A series of Great Conjunction from Kepler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler)'s book De Stella Nova (1606)

QUOTE

'....Originally a trigon was thought to last 240 years
and the full cycle 960 years
but later more correct estimation were provided by the Alphonsine tables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonsine_tables).

Despite the inaccuracies and some disagreement about the beginning of the cycle
the belief in the significance of such events generated a stream of publications
which grew steadily up to the end of the 16th century.
As the great conjunction of 1583 was the last in the watery trigon
it was widely supposed to herald apocalyptic changes;
a papal bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_bull) against divinations was issued in 1586
and as nothing really significant had happened by 1603 with the advent of a new trigon,
the public interest rapidly died.....' source: wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_conjunction
Or it might be a once off comet, or as erratic as it may sound it was a spaceship lol or a group of angles even in more religious explanation. Cause anything in the sky that reflects light at night can be like a Star.

JUPITERASC
01-24-2014, 09:08 PM
There has been some discussion that the Star of Bethlehem was a Grand Conjunction of Jupiter & Saturn; this occurs every 20 or so years-when did that occur during the period of time under discussion (early years BC)?
7 BC :smile:

JUPITERASC
01-24-2014, 09:17 PM
I think it was in Michael Molnar’s book The Star of Bethlehem The Legacy of the Magi that I first read about the conjunction in Pisces

It is claimed that Pisces was associated with the Jews, but I cannot find anything to document this.
Michael J Molnar's book is is in fact titled
EVIDENCE FOR ARIES THE RAM AS THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGN OF JUDEA :smile:
And when you take Genesis 49:9 (Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?) into consideration it makes more sense to associate the constellation Leo with the Jews.
Not necessarily

poyi
01-24-2014, 09:44 PM
Thatís the only connection I can think of, but it is after the fact. It didnít happen until after the Star of Bethlehem had appeared.

There are Virgin Mary and the Fixed Star Spica, the great gift of mankind.
A particular article about The Star of Bethlehem, Virgo Virgin Mary and the Star Spica: http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Virgo, The Seed of the Woman. Jesus was born as the flesh of Woman alone with the Spirit from God. A 14 pages article of the Constellation of Virgo and Christianity, of course including Spica: http://biblenumbers.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/virgo-seed-of-the-woman1.pdf

Mythology of Virgo
http://www.atam.org/Virgo.html

Virgo is depicted as carrying sheaves of wheat in her left hand pointing toward the ground. The brightest star in Virgo is located in the sheaves of wheat, it's name is Spica. Spica means, the SEED. Jesus, born of a virgin, referred to this constellation. He said, "Except a grain (seed) of wheat falls into the ground and die it abide alone; but if it die, it brings forth much fruit." John 12:24 Jesus spoke this of himself, knowing that he was the Seed (Spica) of God that had to be sown into the earth (crucifixion-death-burial) in order to limitless multiply Himself through resurrection life.

poyi
01-24-2014, 09:45 PM
The Fishermen disciples, they went out to fish with net..., ordering the storm to stop, walking on the water.
The Age of Pisces began when the sun entered Pisces at the spring equinox (Figure 5).
18As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.
19And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Matt. 4:18-19)
http://www.usbible.com/astrology/bible_astrology.htm

Pisces is a sign of compassion, selflessness and blind faith and it is likely not coincidental that Jesusí ultimate message was largely based on the themes of this sign.Pisces is a sign that can give so completely of itself, that it becomes totally consumed and void of itís own power. Itís not surprising that itís sense of compassion, forgiveness and selflessness is at once itís greatest strength as well as itís greatest weakness.http://www.visionquestbooks.com/rocky/articles/Pisces.html

The story about wheat and weed, the bad seed and good seed
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13%3A24-30&version=NCV

poyi
01-24-2014, 09:59 PM
Actually during this research for this thread. I think we should consider Spica as the better representation of the Greatest Gift of Mankind as the Newborn King baby Jesus.

I found an interesting, valuable article "Spica The Star of Bethlehem?-refraction for near horizon events-

Hipparcos (130 BC) discovered that the position of the stars with respect to the North Pole was not fixed in time, or to say it in another way, the North Pole doesn't point to a fixed position . Nowadays we know this is due to the precession of the Earth and that the North pole axis describes a circle with a radius of about 23.5į every 25920 years. From the Babylonian tablets he deduced that the rising point of Spica moved with time and that its speed for the right ascension should be more than 1į per century(the actual speed is 1į/ 72 years or 50"/ year). He predicted that for this reason Spica should slip through the vernal point about one or two centuries from his days onwards.Even if it were the Greeks who predicted this passage of Spica through the vernal point, it is fair to admit that his discovery was widely spread among astronomers in the Middle East but now here else
To continue this article http://www.academia.edu/4209380/Spica_the_Star_of_Bethlehem_---_refraction_for_near_horizon_events_

tsmall
01-24-2014, 10:56 PM
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 11:18 PM
There are Virgin Mary and the Fixed Star Spica, the great gift of mankind.
A particular article about The Star of Bethlehem, Virgo Virgin Mary and the Star Spica: http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Virgo, The Seed of the Woman. Jesus was born as the flesh of Woman alone with the Spirit from God. A 14 pages article of the Constellation of Virgo and Christianity, of course including Spica: http://biblenumbers.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/virgo-seed-of-the-woman1.pdf

Mythology of Virgo
http://www.atam.org/Virgo.html

I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).

jeaflor
01-24-2014, 11:26 PM
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

I saw this website back in November. Itís basically a reformatting of Ernest L. Martinís book The Star That Astonished The World. I read Martinís book back in the 1990s and once again all the way through since as well as about the first 1/3 of the online version about a month ago.

I started my current round of research because I have been writing a Christmas-themed novel. My health isnít good so I am housebound a good bit. Iím writing for my own amusement more than anything else. I seriously doubt that I will ever have anything published.

JUPITERASC
01-24-2014, 11:34 PM
EVIDENCE FOR ARIES THE RAM AS THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGN OF JUDEA http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2003JHA....34..325M&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES :smile:

poyi
01-25-2014, 08:17 AM
I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).

I will try to do more search later on. But then I think shouldn't be too hard to find if you just do a good google search. Some luck required of course.



A virgin is a chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden. Also an unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity. Such as the Virgin Mary [Middle English, from Old French virgine, from Latin virgo, virgin]. Mary (Gr. Maria, Mariam, from Heb. miryam, rebellious, bitter), the mother of Jesus, was a descendant from David, and is thought by many that Lukeís genealogy of Christ is through his mother. Neither Mary nor Joseph fully understood their Sonís purpose (Matt. 2:50). In spite of their experiences with the supernatural in relation to him, he was something of an enigma to them.

Others call the constellation, The Virgin, since a circle has neither beginning nor ending, modern astrology begins with Aries, The Lamb. This has been corrupted. The key to the riddle may be in the sphinx, which may actually unlock the mystery of the zodiac.
http://www.mazzaroth.com/InsertSix/VirgoStarChart.htm

jeaflor
01-25-2014, 11:44 PM
EVIDENCE FOR ARIES THE RAM AS THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGN OF JUDEA http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2003JHA....34..325M&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES :smile:

I donít accept Molnarís claim that the Babylonians were influenced by Greek astrology. The Mesopotamians/Babylonians were around long before the Greeks were. Any influencing would have gone the other way. In fact most Greco-Roman religious associations with the visible planets stem from Mesopotamian/Babylonian precedence.

Furthermore, if the Greco-Romans were practicing the same astrology as the Wise Men from the East were, then the Greco-Romans would have had the same interpretation as the Easterners. And anything as momentous as the birth of a Jewish King would have upset the Romans immensely. Greco-Roman wise men simply did not interpret celestial events the same way the Magi did.

Also, if the Wise Men were practicing Hellenistic astrology, the way Greco-Romans were, why did they have to specify to Herod what kind of astrology (in the east) they were practicing as Molnar claims?

Ptolemyís [i]Tetrabiblos[i], as Molnar points out, was 150 years after the birth of Christ. So how does it provide evidence for what constellations had been associated with Judea when Christ was born?

Donít forget that Molnarís date does not coincide with the background history of the Star. Most early Christian writers place Christís birth after 3 BC. And Christ was born just before Herod died. Mainstream historians place Herodís death in 4 BC, so Molnarís date for the Star is too early even by standard history. And there is a good possibility that Herodís death wasnít until 1 BC.

According to Josephus Herod died between a lunar eclipse and the following Passover. 4 BC had an eclipse just a month before Passover. But a single month doesnít provide enough time to conduct the state funeral for Herod that Josephus describes. But, an eclipse on January 10, 1 BC allowed 12 1/2 weeks until the next Passover.

dr. farr
01-26-2014, 03:02 AM
With the Grand Conjunction (Jupiter/Saturn) at 7 BC (thanks JA) I think it is quite possible that this might well have been the "Guiding Star" of the Magi.

Note: most historians of astrology mention Babylonian and Egyptian astrology as the basis upon which the Hellenists later syncretized their astrological system (circa 150-200 BC) There were, however, other streams (traditions) of astrology extant prior to (and contemporary with) the Hellenists: one stream was Magian (ie "Zorastrian") astrology, another stream was the "native Indic" stream (which, during the first 6 centuries AD, became mixed with Magian and Hellenist currents to form what we now know of as Vedic astrology) While we have much historical information on Babylonian and Hellenist astrological concepts, and some also regarding Egptian and early Indic (Vedic) astrology, we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.

jeaflor
01-26-2014, 11:39 AM
we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.



I think people like Molnar approach this issue the wrong way (remember he is an astronomer, not a historian). I see 3 possible ways of doing this research:

Option 1:
Identify the Wise Men.

a. Determine the celestial events that would have had astrological associations for the Wise Men based on their cultural setting.

b. Determine the date of Christís birth based on the dates on which celestial events important to the Wise Men occurred.

Option 2:
Identify the celestial events that could have been the Star.

a. Determine which cultural setting would have given these events astrological associations.

b. Identify the Wise Men based on the determined culture.

Option 3:
Determine the correct background history for the Star

a. The Bible says Christ was born shortly before Herod died.

b. Look for celestial events in the year or two preceding Herodís death which would also be Christís birth, then whatever events there were must be the Star of Bethlehem.

c. Determine which cultural setting would have placed astrological importance on the celestial events that made up the Star.

d. Identify the Wise Men based on the culture that recognized the Star.

Options 1 and 2 have too many unknowns

a. At least 5 different cultural settings (Babylonian/Mesopotamian; Persian; Indian; Chinese and Greco-Roman).

b. 10 Ė 20 year time span in which the celestial events could have taken place since you havenít pinpointed the date for the Star/birth of Christ.

c. Too many variables that must be interpreted and synchronized to ever establish a trustworthy interpretation/synchronization.

Option 3 is the best option

a. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint Herodís death to 1 BC (Josephusí record of the pre-Passover lunar eclipse).

b. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint approximate dates for the census that took Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem (sometime in 3 or 2 BC).

c. Several of the early Church Fathers recorded that Christ was born in what we now know as 3 or 2 BC.

d. Jupiter, Regulus, Leo, Virgo and Venus interacted from September 3 BC to December 2 BC.

So which cultures placed astrological importance on these celestial bodies? And, can the astrological importance of these celestial events pinpoint specific dates for things like the annunciation to Mary, conception and birth of Christ?

dr. farr
01-27-2014, 03:20 AM
Hellenist astrology placed importance on all the celestial factors mentioned; Persian (pre-Islamic Magian) astrology would (from what I know about it) have placed most importance on the 2 planets and the star (Jupiter, Venus, Regulus)
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers). Magian astrology gave a great deal of influence to planets and stars (the Hellenists, while giving some attention to stars, mostly concentrated on planets and signs)-I think the inference is that the Wise Men were practitioners of the Magian (pre-Islamic Persian) astrological stream.

jeaflor
01-27-2014, 12:07 PM
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)

The Wise Men who followed the Star were obviously unusual since they were on the lookout for a new Jewish King. But, Iím inclined to take them as coming from the city of Babylon because Babylon would have been the most important city in that part of the world.

And I also think there was a lot of cross-cultural influences between the Zorastrians and the older Babylonians with a lot of spillover into the Greco-Roman world. For example the planet Jupiter was identified as the supreme god by the Romans, Greeks (Zeus), Babylonians (Marduk) and Persians (Ahura Mazda). And all of these cultures associated Regulus with royalty and they all associated the constellation Leo with a lion.

-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers).


My preliminary research would rule the Indians and Chinese as well. I cannot find any association these cultures had with Jupiter, Regulus, Leo etcetera that would suggest the birth of a Jewish King. And unlike the Bibleís record of Jewish Wise Men (Daniel) working in Babylon, history has nothing to indicate any Indian/Chinese contact with Judaism. The Indians/Chinese wouldnít have cared if a new King of the Jews was born or not.

JUPITERASC
01-27-2014, 12:54 PM
The Wise Men who followed the Star were obviously unusual since they were on the lookout for a new Jewish King. But, Iím inclined to take them as coming from the city of Babylon because Babylon would have been the most important city in that part of the world.

And I also think there was a lot of cross-cultural influences between the Zorastrians and the older Babylonians with a lot of spillover into the Greco-Roman world. For example the planet Jupiter was identified as the supreme god by the Romans, Greeks (Zeus), Babylonians (Marduk) and Persians (Ahura Mazda). And all of these cultures associated Regulus with royalty and they all associated the constellation Leo with a lion.

My preliminary research would rule the Indians and Chinese as well. I cannot find any association these cultures had with Jupiter, Regulus, Leo etcetera that would suggest the birth of a Jewish King. And unlike the Bibleís record of Jewish Wise Men (Daniel) working in Babylon, history has nothing to indicate any Indian/Chinese contact with Judaism. The Indians/Chinese wouldnít have cared if a new King of the Jews was born or not.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF INTRIGUING THEORIES
REGARDING THE POSSIBLE IDENTITIES OF THESE 'WISE MEN' :smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M24LOlRuhYk

http://www.truthbeknown.com/images/threekingssirius.jpg

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dr. farr
01-28-2014, 04:20 AM
Babylon had fallen into desolation and was nearly completely abandoned by 140 BC (decades before the period of Jesus birth); great cities to the East of Palestine, not under Roman control, at the estimated period of Jesus birth were Persepolis, Ectabana, Alexandria-on-the-Caucusus, and particularly, Susa: note that the Zorastrian religion (and Magian astrology) dominated the culture of those cities, and that Hellenist influences were also prominent.

jeaflor
01-28-2014, 11:29 AM
Babylon had fallen into desolation and was nearly completely abandoned by 140 BC (decades before the period of Jesus birth); great cities to the East of Palestine, not under Roman control, at the estimated period of Jesus birth were Persepolis, Ectabana, Alexandria-on-the-Caucusus, and particularly, Susa: note that the Zorastrian religion (and Magian astrology) dominated the culture of those cities, and that Hellenist influences were also prominent.

I should be ashamed of myself for not thinking to investigate this. It has never occurred to me to approach this issue from this angle. I know you have to consider the possible places where the Wise Men could have come from, but I was thinking Babylonia, Persia, India and China. It never occurred to me to consider individual cities.

JUPITERASC
01-28-2014, 12:46 PM
ALTERNATIVELY...

A Planetary Conjunction?

'Ö.The popular answer among astronomers, astrologers, historians today is,
Star of Bethlehem was a planetary conjunction. Two bright planets appeared so close together in the sky
that they merged into one giant, super-star.

This happened once with Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC,
but it was only visible in the western sky.
Stars don't rise in the west.
No other planetary conjunctions were close enough to overlap in that decade. :smile:

I also find this answer insulting to the ancient stargazers.
They knew Venus and Jupiter.
The close conjunction in 2 BC occurred for a few hours one evening; however the conjunction built up over days.....'



'Ö.For example, on a Monday night stargazers would note
"Hey there's Venus and Jupiter a few degrees apart."

On Tuesday night
"There's Venus and Jupiter again and they're getting closer."

And then on night of conjunction, would they be surprised and say
"Oh my God, look at that star! I wonder what it is. Let's follow it!"

And then next night return to their stargazing to note,
"There's Venus and Jupiter again."

Any learned observer of the sky would've known exactly what was happening.
It would've been incredible to witness,
but these were Wise Men, remember? They certainly wouldn't have been fooled.....'



STAR OF BETHLEHEM HEAVENLY AND SCIENTIFIC MYSTERY http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-regas/star-of-bethlehem_b_4466740.html



'Ö.I need more information. Bible did not record natural occurrences with trained eye of modern scientists but from a different world.

To satisfy Matthew's account for the Star of Bethlehem we would need an object that:

Is distinct, noticeable
Doesn't move with the stars
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus
not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources
last seen only in the greater Bethlehem area..

No natural object behaves in a way Bible describes. It is an unidentifiable flying object.
There is really only one conclusion: The Star of Bethlehem was a UFO...'

JUPITERASC
01-28-2014, 01:04 PM
SIX THEORIES ABOUT THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM
THAT DO NOT CONSIDER IT TO HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY A UFO
http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/6-theories-about-the-star-of-bethlehem.html :smile:

JUPITERASC
01-28-2014, 01:43 PM
The difficulties of treating the star of Bethlehem as a real astronomical object should not be underestimated :smile:

For example, New Testament scholar Brown' states
'a star that rose in the East,

appeared over Jerusalem,

turned south to Bethlehem,

and then came to rest over a house

would have constituted a celestial phenomenon unparalleled in astronomical history:

yet it received no notice in the records of the times.'



There is an astronomical object which fits very well the account in Matthew's gospel, and which also received notice in the Chinese records of the times - My best guesses for the Bethlehem Star are the Chinese comet of 4 B.C http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB%2010-93Humphreys.html


STAR OF BETHLEHEM really is open to so many interpretations.
Itís fun to consider what it might have been,
but I doubt any particular view will ever be proven.
Thereís simply too little evidence to go on,
and itís too easy to string numbers, coincidences,
earlier biblical passages, etc.
to create additional alternatives..... astroBob

THE UNSOLVED MYSTERY OF THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2013/12/24/the-unsolved-mystery-of-the-star-of-bethlehem/


WIKI INFO ON STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

jeaflor
01-28-2014, 10:40 PM
A Planetary Conjunction?

I donít see how it could have been anything but. Anything else would have been as likely to cause fear as it would have a celebration.

Is distinct, noticeable

But otherwise totally natural so it didnít cause fear and panic, and also not noticeable enough to have ended up in ancient records other than the Bible since the Bible is the only 1st hand record we have of it.

Doesn't move with the stars
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus

Iím not sure what you mean here. We say that the Wise Men followed the Star. But the Bible simply reports that they saw it. They didnít need to follow it to get to Judea. They already knew that they were going to Judea.

And they knew from the Bible that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. But they didnít realize what the stars were telling them until it was too late to get to Bethlehem before Christ was born. They didnít know that Christ was still living in Bethlehem when they did arrive, and something had happened to the Star so they couldnít see it. But the Star reappeared after the Wise Men had talked with Herod only then did they follow it.

not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources

Not necessarily. Herod and others could have seen it, but without knowing what it meant.

dr. farr
01-29-2014, 04:40 AM
Most if not all of the theories which involve planets and/or stars (excluding comets) have looked at possible conjunctions in LONGITUDE: but what about PARALLELS, either in declination or, perhaps more strikingly, in CELESTIAL LATITUDE?? I think only the slow moving planets (the visible ones), Jupiter and Saturn, could really be considered here (for testing such a hypothesis), and of these 2, most likely Jupiter (both because of its magnitude and also its symbolic significance for the cultures involved)

1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?

2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?

jeaflor
01-29-2014, 10:55 AM
Most if not all of the theories which involve planets and/or stars (excluding comets) have looked at possible conjunctions in LONGITUDE: but what about PARALLELS, either in declination or, perhaps more strikingly, in CELESTIAL LATITUDE?? I think only the slow moving planets (the visible ones), Jupiter and Saturn, could really be considered here (for testing such a hypothesis), and of these 2, most likely Jupiter (both because of its magnitude and also its symbolic significance for the cultures involved)

1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?

2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?

Iím not familiar with these terms, all of this being new to me, but if they mean what I think they do- an alignment, I would venture that astronomers and historians have tunnel vision geared towards conjunctions. Maybe nobody has thought to run software simulations to look for alignments, but chances are we have been biased in favor of conjunctions because they have a greater visual impact than alignments do. Nobody will go to a planetarium to watch a show about alignments so there is a also a money factor involved.

dr. farr
01-30-2014, 03:50 AM
Yes I think you are correct here: its always been about "conjunctions in longitude" and the parallels (defacto alignments), either in declination or in latitude, have been neglected: however, parallels (declinational and latitudinal) have been part-albeit an often ignorned part-of astrology since ancient times (both in the West, and also in Vedic astrology), and the thing about them is that you can actually see them in the sky, which is not always the case especially when we talk about conjunctions-in-longitude involving a star and a planet, for in fact the location in the sky of a star in longitudinal conjunction with a planet, can actually be far away from that planet (visually, in the sky), whereas in alignments (parallels) this is never the case.

dr. farr
01-30-2014, 03:58 AM
With the Grand Conjunction (Jupiter/Saturn) at 7 BC (thanks JA) I think it is quite possible that this might well have been the "Guiding Star" of the Magi.

However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...

jeaflor
01-30-2014, 03:35 PM
However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...

Iím inclined to believe that it was Jupiter that the Wise Men followed, but that it took a series of conjunctions to make the Wise Men realize what they were being told. Itís possible that the celestial events from before 6 BC were meant to get the Wise Menís attention and tell them to be on the alert for future developments that came in 3-2 BC.

However, Iíve seen speculation in the course of my research that the Wise Men were pre-programmed to be on the lookout for the Messiah because the prophet Daniel recorded a schedule (Daniel 9:24-27).

But, no matter how many times I have read Daniel I cannot make heads or tails of it. Parts of this passage could be applied to Christ, but other parts could be applied to Antiochus Epiphanes(sp?), the emperor that the Maccabees revolted against. And then you have to decide whether or not the parts applied to Christ indicate His first coming, or His second.

If this is true, and we could pinpoint the time of Daniel, we would know when Christ was born and therefore know the year to look for the Star. But if the Wise Men knew when Christ was to be born, they could have simply gone to Judea ahead of time and waited, and this would have made the Star unnecessary.

jeaflor
01-31-2014, 02:06 AM
Is there any kind of website or arithmetic calculation that can give previous dates for the heliacal rising of Jupiter?

Iíll have to re-read the books to be certain, but based on what a couple of websites say Michael Molnar (The Star of Bethlehem The Legacy of the Magi) placed a heliacal rising of Jupiter on April 17, 6 BC, and Ernest L. Martin (The Star That Astonished The World) placed another helicacal rising on August 12, 3 BC.

I took Jupiterís synodic period of 398.9 days and counted forward from Molnarís date, but it doesnít create a cycle of heliacal risings that match Martinís date.

So, unless I am wrong about Jupiterís synodic period, or I miscalculated when I counted, one or the other of these dates must be wrong. But if my calculations are correct either of these dates would put a helicacal rising of Jupiter between June 17, 2 BC and December 25, 2 BC and this could explain why the Wise Men couldnít follow the Star (Jupiter) directly to Bethlehem when they arrived in Judea. If neither Molnar, nor Martin are correct, then I need some way to find when Jupiter had heliacal risings during this time period.

poyi
02-01-2014, 01:25 AM
I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).

I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisdom-Translation-From-Hebrew/dp/096622664X

poyi
02-01-2014, 01:59 AM
I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!

jeaflor
02-01-2014, 02:10 AM
I can't find any other source at the moment from Babylonian. I did find Virgo as Virgin, Be'tula in Hebrew meaning Virgin, according to

Ibn-Ezra (Avraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra), The Begining of Wisdom translated by and annotated by Meira B. Epstein edited with additional annotation by Robert Hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Wisdom-Translation-From-Hebrew/dp/096622664X

I hadnít seen this Hebrew connection before. However, in Isaiah 7:14 the King James translates the Hebrew word almah as virgin. The same goes for the Greek Septuagint translation (almah = parthenos which means virgin). Non-King James English translations often translate Isaiah 7:14 as young girl trying to discount Christís Divinity by denying His virgin birth. But, anyone who knows what ancient Jewish society was like would know that a young girl would be a teenager who is still living with her parents because she is not yet married, and any un-married Jewish girl who wasnít also a virgin would have disgraced her family.

But at any rate, with the information you give here,
it would be entirely possible for Babylonian Wise
Men to make the connection between Virgo and
virginity by using this Hebraic conduit.

But, then with everything else that Iíve learned
here, I now need to look for a Zoroastrian
association between Virgo and virginity because I am
now thinking more that the Wise Men weren't culturally
Babylonian.

jeaflor
02-01-2014, 02:13 AM
I am reading this book at the moment. Although originally written in Hebrew, this book also listed Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Hindu descriptions for dignities, debilities, rulership, degrees and signs physical features, body parts, Lots, Houses, aspects. Excellent book!

I took German classes for grades 8-12. Iím beginning to forget most of it since it was so long ago, and I now wish I had spent the time studying Latin, Greek or Hebrew. They would have been more useful in the long run.

poyi
02-01-2014, 02:45 AM
In the footnote of this book, p.46

regarding Virgo:"Erastosthenes and Avienus identified her with Isis, the thousand-named goddess...clasping in her arms the young Horus, the infant southern sun-god, the last of the divine kings. This is very ancient figuring appeared in the Middle Ages as the Virgin Mary with the child Jesus...Albertus Magnus of our 13th century, asserted that the Saviour's horoscope lay here. It has been said that her initials, MV, are the symbol for the Sign:virgo:

p.47 Footnote

says that the ancient Arabs' Lion was a much larger constellation that extended from Gemini through Libra and parts of the constellation north and south of the zodiac. This may explain this mention of the Lion in the description of Virgo.

dr. farr
02-01-2014, 03:31 AM
Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)

jeaflor
02-01-2014, 11:56 AM
Martin claims that Revelation chapter 12 (a woman clothed with the sun with the moon at her feet gives birth only to have a great dragon try to kill her child) is describing the celestial events preceding Christís birth. I canít readily make this connection because I donít see any part of Revelation as a book of history (or at least what would have been history to the Apostle John). Chapter 12 is likely more symbolism in an already highly symbolic book that we likely will never understand until the prophecies all actually happen.

But, suppose the Wise Men didnít associate Virgo with virginity. If they accepted this constellation as representing a woman, then the celestial events of 3 BC could still be interpreted as the start of a womanís pregnancy- just not a virginal one.

And this raises theological issues. Matthew says that the Wise Men worshipped Jesus. The word used for worship is the same word used later when Satan asked Christ to worship him and the same word used when other people later worshipped Christ. So, were the Wise Men looking for God, or were they just looking for a King of the Jews?

If they accepted Christ as God, did they not serve as Christian missionaries when they returned home? Why then did wherever home was not already have a Christian community when the Apostles or later missionaries arrived? Without such a community I would have to suggest that the Wise Men were very few in number (maybe even the 3 of Christian tradition), and they likely were well advanced in age so they had neither the number, nor the time, to do any evangelizing.

Just rereading chapter 12 of Revelation I noticed in verse 1 it says the woman had a crown of 12 stars on her head. 12 would be symbolic of the tribes of Israel or the original Apostles. But, does the constellation Virgo have 12 stars at its head region that could be this crown?

JUPITERASC
02-01-2014, 01:25 PM
Historically, the constellation Virgo was associated with a virgin, or a goddess-like woman, or in fact a goddess (such as Isis or Ishtar) in ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (zorastrian), Greek, Roman, Indian and Tamil cultures: Spica is, of course, the prominent star of this constellation (and around the time of Jesus Nativity, the Virgo constellation largely occupied the tropical sign of Virgo) This is one of the reasons I have brought Spica into consideration (in alignment with Jupiter) as possibly being involved (my other most likely choice among the stars, being Regulus)
poyi's interesting research quotes the following information on this :smile:
There are Virgin Mary and the Fixed Star Spica, the great gift of mankind.
A particular article about The Star of Bethlehem, Virgo Virgin Mary and the Star Spica: http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm

Virgo, The Seed of the Woman. Jesus was born as the flesh of Woman alone with the Spirit from God. A 14 pages article of the Constellation of Virgo and Christianity, of course including Spica: http://biblenumbers.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/virgo-seed-of-the-woman1.pdf

Mythology of Virgo
http://www.atam.org/Virgo.html

Quote:
Virgo is depicted as carrying sheaves of wheat in her left hand pointing toward the ground. The brightest star in Virgo is located in the sheaves of wheat, it's name is Spica. Spica means, the SEED. Jesus, born of a virgin, referred to this constellation. He said, "Except a grain (seed) of wheat falls into the ground and die it abide alone; but if it die, it brings forth much fruit." John 12:24 Jesus spoke this of himself, knowing that he was the Seed (Spica) of God that had to be sown into the earth (crucifixion-death-burial) in order to limitless multiply Himself through resurrection life.

I don't think Leo is specifically talking about the Jew as Egyptian used Sirius and Orion for building their pyramids. Pisces is thought to be relevant to Jew maybe because Jesus fed them with fishes and bread Virgo/Pisces. And more relevant stories about Virgo and Pisces in the bible as well.

jeaflor
02-01-2014, 02:58 PM
It seems that other people who have done Star of Bethlehem research cannot agree on the minute details. They all generally accept the same dates for things like conjunctions, although some include conjunctions that others ignore. But, they cannot seem to agree on the conclusion of the story.

Some have claimed that Jupiter came to a stop over Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BC. But others insist this didnít happen until December 28, 2 BC. And then they disagree on how long Jupiter appeared to be stationary over Bethlehem once it got there.

I know that there are multiple planetarium software packages available, but just how accurate are they? Is one any better than another? And I know that the earthís orbit isnít steady because the earth wobbles on its axis, and things like earthquakes can change the time duration of the earthís orbit around the sun. But can these things throw off the celestial time table by days?

And just what would the Wise Men have seen when they left Jerusalem after talking to Herod since Jerusalem is only 6 miles or so away? Could Jupiter have stopped over Bethlehem when seen from Jerusalem even though Jupiter was still moving?

dr. farr
02-02-2014, 03:41 AM
That's why I lean toward the concept of Jupiter AND a star (Spica? Regulus?) together, in some type of alignment, and it might be the apparent actions of each COMPONENT of this meaningful alignment, that are variously mentioned in the accounts. Remember too that (as far as I know) no one has considered the parallels (whether of declination or celestial latitude) in this-only the potential conjunctions in longitude have been considered.

IF the Magi were zorastrian adepts, they would perhaps have been searching for the earthly incarnation of Jupiter/Mithras, one legend (extant around that ancient period of time) being that at some point in history such an Incarnation upon Earth would occur and usher in a new Age...