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mossadrai
01-04-2014, 03:35 AM
Hello everyone!

Do you think this person is close to dying?

Her hyleg is the Sun and the Alcocoden is Jupiter. Since Jupiter is in a cadent house, even though it is strong it can not give too many years, therefore 45.5 years (Jupiter average).

The square to Sun and Mercury may add some months (19 and 20, from the minor of these planets). This would result in 3 years more, on average, then 48.5.

Since the person was born in 1974 and is now almost 40, do you think the person is close to dying?

waybread
01-04-2014, 04:09 AM
There are big debates in astrology about whether astrologers can predict death, and whether they should predict death, if it is possible.

Please think through very carefully why you ask, and what are the implications of a potentially incorrect answer from a bunch of amateur astrologers on an Internet forum.

dr. farr
01-04-2014, 04:15 AM
Hello everyone!

Do you think this person is close to dying?

Her hyleg is the Sun and the Alcocoden is Jupiter. Since Jupiter is in a cadent house, even though it is strong it can not give too many years, therefore 45.5 years (Jupiter average).

The square to Sun and Mercury may add some months (19 and 20, from the minor of these planets). This would result in 3 years more, on average, then 48.5.

Since the person was born in 1974 and is now almost 40, do you think the person is close to dying?

For my part I do not accept the particular longevity estimating procedure, outlined above, as a dependable estimating method...

mossadrai
01-04-2014, 11:39 AM
I am aware of the debates, waybread. But you may also be aware that for traditional astrology death should be analyzed and predicted like any other thing in the horoscopo (fame, marriage, children etc). This is why I always try to analyze the matter, even though I have never told this kind of information to the chart's owner.

Dr. Farr, what kind of longevity estimating procedure do you use, if any?

My question is more to know if you agree that the Sun and Jupiter must be the Hyleg and Alcocoden of the chart, and if the way I handled the years and months seems right to you.

waybread
01-04-2014, 04:33 PM
This isn't a "should," mossadrai. Moral standards have changed since the 16th century and previously. Among them is the morality of interpreting death from a horoscope for a person who hasn't asked for it and may not want to have it done.

JUPITERASC
01-04-2014, 08:37 PM
Hello everyone!

Do you think this person is close to dying?

Her hyleg is the Sun and the Alcocoden is Jupiter. Since Jupiter is in a cadent house, even though it is strong it can not give too many years, therefore 45.5 years (Jupiter average).

The square to Sun and Mercury may add some months (19 and 20, from the minor of these planets). This would result in 3 years more, on average, then 48.5.

Since the person was born in 1974 and is now almost 40, do you think the person is close to dying?
Hello mossadrai

The assumption is that you have a reliable time of birth for this person....

if the time of birth is not correct then any accurate delineation is not possible :smile:

also

Keep in mind the Ethical Rules of The Forum http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/faq.php

QUOTE


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dr. farr
01-05-2014, 02:59 AM
Dr. Farr, what kind of longevity estimating procedure do you use, if any?

ANSWER: I USE A RATHER COMPLEX AND HIGHLY ECLECTIC APPROACH MIXING ELEMENTS DRAWN FROM THE HELLENIST AND FROM THE VEDIC STREAMS.

My question is more to know if you agree that the Sun and Jupiter must be the Hyleg and Alcocoden of the chart, and if the way I handled the years and months seems right to you.

Answer: from my understanding of the Traditionalist Western longevity estimating methodology you (seem) to be applying here, I think the answer is yes you did correctly apply the technique; however, as I have stated earlier, I have serious reservations about the reliability of that method (and the allocation of years) IN ITSELF, which is one of the reasons I eventually knitted together an eclectic approach, from strands taken from several such methods, Western and Indian.

mossadrai
01-05-2014, 02:08 PM
Can you teach or give a brief summary of the technique you use, Dr. Farr?

Thanks for telling me the Ethical Rules, Jupiterasc. I had never read it, nor did I know it existed. Thanks for enlightening me.

Marinka
01-05-2014, 02:33 PM
What is your definition of "close" where you asked if the "person was close to dying"?

Is it a week? a year? 10 years?

You might also want to post a solar arc/progressions/transits.

mossadrai
01-05-2014, 02:35 PM
Anything from 5 to 10 years is close to me.

Marinka
01-05-2014, 03:19 PM
These are two threads that look at some of the angles & events that were occurring at the death of two cases given.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65611

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66089

To be able to look forward and see this same information (noted in threads) in a living person would require many charts. For each year, at least 4 different dates and 3 charts for each date (solar arc/progression/transits). That's 12 charts to analyze for each year so if you wanted to go 5 years out - that would be 60 charts. This analysis is complex and takes at least an hour if not more for each chart.

Once you find a period that looks like it has many of the angles & events, you would probably need to generate more charts - one for each week -- so maybe about 15 more charts.

That would be about 2 weeks of work.

And, if you really wanted to be precise, you would go back over their previous years. This would be to gain a better understanding of how events/angles work for this person and would provide better accuracy on timings.

waybread
01-05-2014, 06:28 PM
Mossadrai, I have done a little web searching, and believe that you have serious credentials in Jewish studies. I wouldn't talk to other posters in this way, but I think you will understand my "page" even if you are not on it yourself. (For others reading this thread who are atheists, &c., please consider my sectarian post as in keeping with a more generic concept of alignment with the universe.)

Perhaps we could get more on the same page with the following:

Isaiah 47:13

http://scharatzedeck.com/03_00_rabbis_weekly_message_Aug30-2013.html

This latter article points to a common theme about astrology in Judaism: that even rabbis who believed in astrology did so with a huge element of "free will", which is mirrored today by the widespread consensus in modern astrology that "the stars impel but they do not compel." Medieval rabbis who wrote about astrology (like Gersonides and Nahmanides) seem almost modern in their outlook on prognostication, unlike the Greeks who held more fatalistic views.

The underlying theme towards prognostication in the Tanakh (and in Judaism's daughter religions) is that the Creator of the cosmos also has the power to change predicted outcomes. Judaism grants to pious Jews a particular exemption from astral determinism, but we find this theme mirrored in other faiths, like the Catholic catechism.

The rabbis throughout history showed considerable variance on their views of astrology, from outright prohibition to dedicated practice. However, the idea that God can intervene in human affairs, thus nullifying astrologers' predictions, was ancient, precedent-setting, and widespread. It probably derives from the first of the ten commandments. They also noted the human propensity to error and misunderstanding.

This latter point becomes extremely serious in death prediction, because rightly or wrongly, it carries far more freight for most people than the typical questions we see on a daily basis. It is with the acknowledgement that I might be mistaken and that no one can ultimately predict the end of a life that is in God's hands that I strive to practice astrology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_of_astrology
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01531.html

The kabbalah, as an esoteric discipline designed to bring the practitioner closer to God, and with a longstanding astrological component, has to be understood in the context that whatever brings the individual closer to God is good. Whatever removes him is not-so-good.

Uncritical reliance on astrological prediction is suspect in Judaism because it places the individual's faith in the stars rather than on their Creator; or worse, on fallible human beings who practice astrology.

It is an invasion of privacy to do a death prediction for someone who hasn't asked for it, apart from the persistent problems of inaccuracy in application of the various methods.

Please seriously examine your motives, whether they are in keeping with the spirit of an esoteric discipline dedicated to unity with the God who made His concerns about prognostication clear in Isaiah, and who is the foundation of kabbalah studies.

There is a huge and acrimonious thread on the forum (2013) about the morality of death prediction. I don't have the stomach to search for it, but if you are interested maybe you can.

Shalom, W.

dr. farr
01-06-2014, 03:32 AM
Can you teach or give a brief summary of the technique you use, Dr. Farr?


I do not seek death time predictions, rather I look for likely longevity estimations together with indications for potential critical periods (critical periods relative to the health, since I use astro-therapeutics in my professional practice of alternative medicine)

Briefly, in making likely longevity estimations:
-as a base I use either the average longevity taken from the person's own family history or, if that is unclear, the average life expectancy (at the person's current age) based on gender, race and country of residency for this person.
-then I add to and subtract from this estimation (based upon conventional statistical sources) according to the following natal astrological factors:
-I use Vedic sarvashtakavarga analysis in this process, as a quantitative measuring tool for implications regarding Lots, houses-and signs/planets
-I consider the ascending sign, the 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th & 12th houses, their signs and the planetary dispositors of those signs
-I consider the signs and planetary dispositors of: the Pars Hyleg, the Part of Life, the Foundation (Basis) Lot, the Part of Fortune, the Part of Spirit, the sign & dispositor of the North Lunar Node, the sign & dispositor of the South Lunar Node, the Pars Anareta, the Part of Murder, the Part of Suicide, the Part of Accidents, the Part of Posion (toxic exposure), the Part of Acute Illness, the Part of Chronic Illness, and (under certain conditions) the Part of Debilitated Bodies

...this gives me an approximation for likely longevity...

JUPITERASC
01-06-2014, 11:02 AM
Can you teach or give a brief summary of the technique you use, Dr. Farr?

Thanks for telling me the Ethical Rules, Jupiterasc.
I had never read it, nor did I know it existed. Thanks for enlightening me.
That's ok. The fact that you have previously never read the Ethical Rules
nor even knew of their existence
is proof that the link to the forum rules is not sufficiently prominently displayed :smile:

Discussion regarding the MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628&highlight=morality

During the discussion Paul questioned that there is anything especially immoral about 'death prediction'
and so a spin-off thread began with a new discussion
on the theme of
RELATIONSHIPS AND MORALITY OF PREDICTING THOSE IN NATAL AS WELL AS HORARY ASTROLOGY http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68195&highlight=morality