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sentinel
12-31-2013, 10:32 PM
Hi
This is my first posting!!
My query is when is a chart radical (event/horary)?
I believe Bonatti and Lilly had slightly different rules for radicality, and there are also different triplicity rulers, based upon Dorotheus (used by Bonatti?), Ptolemy and Lilly.
I appear confused as to when diurnal and nocturnal triplicity rulers are relevant and would welcome clarification.
If I can give my understanding when the Sun is the hour ruler, this may be a useful example. I will attempt the other planets as hour rulers once I am clearer on how radicality should be approached.
Sun as Hour Ruler:
Hour ruler and Ascendant are the same triplicity:
For diurnal charts only, when Sun is the hour ruler, the Chart is radical when Aries, Leo and Sagittarius ascend?
Hour ruler is the Ascendant ruler:
Diurnal and nocturnal times, the chart is radical when Leo ascends?
Hour ruler has the same humoral quality as the Ascendant:
Sun agrees with Fire, so the chart is radical when Aries, Leo and Sagittarius ascend, for diurnal charts only?
(Bonatti’s rule)Hour ruler and Ascendant ruler are the same triplicity:
Example – Sun in Pisces with Aquarius rising and Saturn in Scorpio, so both are in the water triplicity. This rule applies for both diurnal and nocturnal charts?
Any clarification would be appreciated.

tsmall
01-01-2014, 01:36 AM
Here is something that may help.

http://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf

waybread
01-01-2014, 01:51 AM
The whole concept of radicality appears to be undergoing revision in recent times. After 20th century authors placed a lot of strictures on which charts could be interpreted, more recently horary astrologers appear to be relaxing strictures, reducing them to cautionary notes only.

A rule of thumb seems to be to examine the chart, and to see whether it seems to describe the situation inquired about.

dr. farr
01-01-2014, 03:23 AM
Prior to Bonatti (13th century), the pioneers of Western horary (8th through 12th century) were not concerned at all with the "radicality" question-only considerations-for them-that would make a chart not radical, were if the querent was not serious about the question, or was trying to test the astrologer, or already knew the answer to the question before asking, or was repeatedly asking the same question (having already obtained an answer previously) Same with Vedic horary (called prashna), originating approximately in the 6th century AD: in prashna-as in pre-Bonatti Western horary-there were (and still are) no issues regarding radicality, except the strictures-identical to those of oldtime Western horary-which I have mentioned, above.

sentinel
01-01-2014, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the responses.

The skyscript article and the replies still leave this unclear to me.

From the '4 rules', as detailed in my original post, I am still uncertain when triplicity day/night rulership is relevant and when it is not.

Any further thoughts and clarification would be welcome.

I will try and post another example later to illustrate my questioning of how to interpret these rules, and also which triplicity rulers (Dorotheus/Lilly) are to be considered.

Thanks again

JUPITERASC
01-01-2014, 11:25 AM
Thanks for the responses.

The skyscript article and the replies still leave this unclear to me.

From the '4 rules', as detailed in my original post, I am still uncertain when triplicity day/night rulership is relevant and when it is not.

Any further thoughts and clarification would be welcome.

I will try and post another example later to illustrate my questioning of how to interpret these rules, and also which triplicity rulers (Dorotheus/Lilly) are to be considered.

Thanks again
One of our members is well informed on horary history and rules and in 2010 posted the following comment :smile:

11-09-2010, 02:35 AM
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Re: A specialist for my confusion?
If you're going to learn, you should start at the begining.

You need to see if the chart is radical. For that, you'll need Hour Tables or something to calculate the Hour Ruler for you. It happens to be the Moon, and the Moon happens to be in the same Triplicity (Fire) as the Ascendant, so the chart is radical and we can judge it (or attempt to).

Once you find the chart is radical, you need to look for warnings. Some people call those considerations or strictures. These do not prevent the chart from being judged, they're simply warnings that it might be difficult to reach a proper judgment.

Ascendant in early or late degrees. Some people say the first and last 3° but there's really no support for that. Early degrees would be the first 5° to 7° and late degrees would be the last 7° to 5°. An early Ascendant shows things haven't developed yet so it's too early, and a late Ascendant shows the situation is out of the Querent's control (and the Querent knows that but they asked out of sheer desperation). We don't have that problem here.

Ascendant Via Combusta, which would be anywhere from 15° Libra to 15° Scorpio (except for 23° Libra which is the Fixed Star Spica). That isn't a problem here.

Next we look for Saturn in the 1st or 7th House. Saturn in the 7th House and not ruling the 1st or 7th House is a warning to the Astrologer that they don't know enough about the subject matter for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know, maybe they don't understand, or maybe the Querent hasn't been forthcoming with details.

Saturn in the 1st House and not the ruler of the 1st or 7th House will results in long delays and most likely totally destroy the matter so that it is never perfected.

We don't have have problem here.

The last consideration is Moon Via Combusta or Moon Void of Course.

The Moon is Void of Course, so nothing will happen, but we'll look at the chart to see if we can find out why.

Now we need to find our significators. For nearly all Questions about romantic relationships and marriage, the Querent is represented by the 1st House and the Quesited by the 7th House.

There is a relationship question where the Querent is the 7th House. Not too many people know that, which is obvious form the fact that there are a number of Questions about that topic.

Assuming the Moon does not rule the 1st or 7th House, the Querent's significators are:

1st House Ruler
Moon
Planet Moon last aspected

For the Quesited:

7th House Ruler
Planet Moon aspects next.

Venus for women and Sun for men.

Now we need to check the condition of our Significators and we'll start with yours. Jupiter rules the 1st House and represents you.

Jupiter Good: in Rulership
Jupiter Bad: Retrograde, Cadent, Below Horizon in a Day Chart, West of the Sun (Occidental)

Moon Good: Fast, Moon in neutral Sign
Moon Bad: Peregrine, Cadent, Out of Sect, Moon in 4th Quarter and Oriental

Moon's last aspect was a square with Mercury, so Mercury is one of your signficators

Mercury Good: Fast, in Neutral Sign, West of the Sun (Occidental)
Mercury Bad: Cadent, Combust (but separating)

Venus Good: ----------
Venus Bad: Retrograde, in Detriment, Cadent, Combust (but separating), East of Sun (Oriental) and Above Horizon in a Day Chart

Now we look at his significators.

Mercury Good: Fast, in Neutral Sign, West of the Sun (Occidental)
Mercury Bad: Cadent, Combust (but separating)

Moon is Void of Course, but it's next aspect will be a square without Reception to Mars.

Mars Good: Angular, Fast, Nocturnal and West of the Sun
Mars Bad: Peregrine, in Cadent Sign (to Sign of Exaltation), Out of Sect and Mars is conjunct the Crown of the Scorpion (and also conjunct by Latitude and Declination), which is an incredibly unfortunate Fixed Star and I'll leave it at that.

Sun Good: Fast and Above Horizon in a Day Chart in neutral Sign
Sun Bad: Peregrine, Cadent

Overall, the condition of the Planets in this chart is very bad and does not look like we'll have a positive result.

For relationship Questions, you always look at Quesited's Planets first.

Normally, when the Queisted's significators are in applying aspects to your significators, that is the best case scenario. His Mercury and Sun are in applying trines to Jupiter, even though they are out of orb. Unfortunately, there is no Reception between either significator. Even though those are trines, they might as well be oppositions or not in aspect at all.

Mars is in an applying square to Jupiter, although Jupiter does receive Mars in Sagittarius, it represents another obstacle in your relationship.

Jupiter is applying to Mercury, Mars and Sun by Mutual Application. That always represents something sudden, unexpected and sometimes violent. I don't see any violence here, even though Mercury and Sun are in a Violent Sign (Scorpio), because Jupiter is in Pisces.

Venus, your other significator has separated from both Mercury and Sun.

Mercury, which is your significator also because it was the Moon's last aspect would best be represented by the 1st Triplicity Ruler Venus.

Finally, we note the Ascendant is in an Azieme Degree.

There is nothing positive about this chart. None of the significators are in good condition. In fact both Benefics, Jupiter and Venus are in such bad shape that they function as Malefic Planets here. Sun, Moon and Mars are Peregrine, and Peregrine Planets just do not perform.

The Moon is Void of Course and that shows there will be just a lot of talk and nothing ever comes of it.

The Moon has recently separated from squares with Venus, Sun and Mercury, and since all three are in Scorpio the Sign of the Moon's Fall, none of those things could have been good.

This chart shows no signs of marriage.

The web-site you found quoting Lily is not a reputable astrology site. Whoever that is has no clue what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyractia
plus i found a link that refers to the void of course of the moon in horary refering that''''A VOC Moon is always radical and readable.

That's just plain wrong. A Void of Course Moon has nothing to do with a chart being radical or not.

If the chart is radical, then yes it can be read even if the Moon is Void of Course.

Quote:
In horary questions it means that there is nothing to worry about, and the answer will come very soon.
That is not what it means. It means nothing will happen very slowly.

Quote:
If for example a woman asks, “Will I marry the man I desire?” as on page 389 of CA, with the Moon VOC, then in this case your answer is Yes. But if your answer were No, then it would not bother the woman because she didn’t really want to marry in the first place and will soon forget the whole thing. It is important to remember that if the whole chart indicates it, then there could be a loss, delay, or frustration in the quesited. But if the Moon is VOC, then in the overall picture of the quesited there is nothing to worry about.'''''
That isn't what the text says and that astrologer has no clue what they're talking about.

Lily says that when the Moon is Void of Course, and in the Signs of Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius and Pisces, the Moon can perform under certain conditions, and there will still be delays and problems.

In know that chart well and I know that the Moon is at 28° Sagittarius, so Lily believes that the Moon can perform.

However, the Moon in that chart is not Peregrine, and your Moon is, and the Moon in that chart is not Out of Sect, and your Moon is. Also the Moon in that chart is in a Succedent House, not a Cadent House.

Also, I would point out she did not marry the man she wanted, she married another that Lily found for her in the chart. He describes the man and she knew who he was. That is obvious from this:

Quote:
the neernesse of Jupiter to the Sextile of Saturn, made me confident that the Quesited was intimately acquainted with a person of quality and worth, such as Jupiter represented, whom I exactly described, and the Lady very well knew: Unto him I directed to addresse her Complaints, and aquaint him fully with her unhappy folly:
Instead of marrying the man she wanted, the man she wanted introduced her to another whom she married, in lieu of the Quesited.

I'd also point out that in the one or two examples that Lily gives where a Void of Course Moon performs, the Moon is in Rulership or Exaltation, or it is in the Signs of Jupiter, and the Significators are in almost perfect condition, and all aspects are Mutual Reception or very strong Reception.
..
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sentinel
01-01-2014, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the responses from everyone.

My query relates to what 'rules' are used to determine radicality and how these should be interpreted.

The issue of how radicality should be regarded with a horary question seems to be a different topic and the information provided by JupiterAsc (thanks for this) illustrates that only one of the possible four 'rules' are used.

I've worked my way through Mercury and Venus as the Hour Lord. With the help received from everyone I seem to have reached the conclusion that the only rule relevant to the a chart being diurnal, or nocturnal is "The hour ruler and Ascendant are the same triplicity". The other three 'rules' in my original post are not day, or night dependant.

If anyone has a different opinion I would be pleased to hear.

tsmall
01-02-2014, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the responses from everyone.

My query relates to what 'rules' are used to determine radicality and how these should be interpreted.

The issue of how radicality should be regarded with a horary question seems to be a different topic and the information provided by JupiterAsc (thanks for this) illustrates that only one of the possible four 'rules' are used.

I've worked my way through Mercury and Venus as the Hour Lord. With the help received from everyone I seem to have reached the conclusion that the only rule relevant to the a chart being diurnal, or nocturnal is "The hour ruler and Ascendant are the same triplicity". The other three 'rules' in my original post are not day, or night dependant.

If anyone has a different opinion I would be pleased to hear.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "rule." More appropriate would be a condition. There are several conditions Bonatti, and then later Lilly, give for determining if the chart is radical. What we are really looking for is a sign that the Universe is blessing or "watching" the question. It's like with children. I have three, and often times their questions become incessant. There have been a few occassions when one or the other asked me a question while my mind was otherwise occupied and so I mistakenly answered yes when I really meant no. It's like that.

I hope that you've answered your first question re triplicity rulers by day and night? I also hope that you and others reading understand that it is not necessary for all of either Lilly's or Bonatti's conditions to be met in order for the chart to be radical. It needs only one. I actually find the one about agreeing in complexion or nature to be the most difficult as well as broad, because that is very much open to interpretation. Every masculine planet will agree with every masculine sign to a certain extent, for example. Another example. Jupiter is hot and moist, which should mean that Jupiter agrees with fire, air, and water. Sun is hot and dry, so Sun should agree with fire and air and earth.