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View Full Version : Sun's position in zodiac below horizon at local solar noon?


Arena
11-28-2013, 01:31 PM
Hope you can help explain this to me.

Have been looking at the zodiac and movements of the sun around it.

If you have astrology software I understand it as such that:

LOCAL Sunrise would show Sun directly on the east (on the ASC)
LOCAL noon would have the Sun directly above (at your 12 o'clock on zodiac like it was a clock).
LOCAL sunset would have the Sun's pos. directly to the west on the DSC.

This would be close to the equator


I post a chart for solar noon in London, and solar noon in Canada, inputting the clock time with the right time zone into the software.

So are we saying that when we have solar noon at each place on the earth that they DO NOT have the same view to their east constellation sign at that given time?

Why do the astro software not show the sun at the top and above the horizon at solar noon ?
Would it be right to show the sun straight up and then skew the axis rather than the sun's pos?

Arena
11-28-2013, 02:13 PM
To explain myself a little better

I do know that the Sun comes up (sunrise) at different places on earth - it is not exactly to the east all the time.

Like f.ex. in northern latitudes the sun comes up in the NE in summer and goes down in the NW.

Would it not show us a more clear picture of the zodiac wheel to place the sun always at the top at noon, because that is where the Sun is at local solar noon ... and to show the Asc/Dsc and MC/Ic axis move according to that?

mdinaz
11-28-2013, 02:59 PM
I'm confused with your chart on Toronto - the time indicated on the chart is 5:06 PM - sunset in Toronto at this date is 4:43 PM - the sun would indeed be below the horizon. And yes, the houses become more skewed with an increase in latitude - the later in the year and farther north you go, the more the MC is skewed and the Sun is not directly overhead. The only place where the sun is actually overhead is near the equator. A local horizon chart will also illustrate this, the same for the actual position of the sun at sunrise. For extreme northern latitudes some people use a different house system like whole sign, you can find a discussion on that recently here by searching for it. If you go to the www.astro.com website and use the extended chart selection, use the selection for "astrolog" and you can generate a local horizon chart which will show the actual height and azimuth of the bodies in question.

Arena
11-28-2013, 03:53 PM
Sorry, it seems like the suncalc website does indeed use GMT clock hour for the solar noon in each place.

Yes the sun is not always straight up above, but it is at it's highest point at noon and therefore I was thinking that the sun at the top on the zodiac wheel would show us the local noon always and then skew the axis acc. to sun's position... so that it would not necessarily be directly to the left and right, but skewed according to the right picture of the sky - but that the sun is the middle point everywhere.

I removed the charts because I saw that suncalc. was not showing the local clock time.
Need to adjust it.

Arena
11-28-2013, 04:24 PM
...So you see what I mean is that when we live in the NH we always look to the South to see the sun at noon - but sunrise and sunset points change... during the summer the sun rises in NE and sets in NW ... so by showing the sun in the zodiac wheel at top (as it were the south) and then the ASC axis would move according to season.

Has it ever been shown that way in software or animation?

mdinaz
11-28-2013, 05:04 PM
If you use the Astrolog software, there is a point called the "Eastern Point" that you can utilize. It is near the ASC but reflects the true eastern point rather than where the Sun is actually located. Doing a chart for this morning at my location shows the Sun to be 12 degrees farther south east than the EP. The EP can be in a different house and sign than the Sun, and a different sign than the ASC. I've used it on occasion - the ASC is the self and personality that others see, while the Sun is the self and personality as it really is. For instance my Sun is in Gemini but my ASC is in Taurus. People who know me but not in-depth see me as a Taurean personality - the strong, quiet, silent type. People who actually do know me well see the Gemini side - smart, quick, intelligent, conversational. The EP can show a further side, the side that people who are complete strangers to you see. My EP is in Taurus, but the 12th house - they see me as the strong silent type, but also as one who hides emotions or problems since the EP is in the 12th. My 12th ruler is in Aries and Mars is trine the ASC and EP, so people may be a little fearful with a Mars edge they detect but don't understand. The EP can be in the 12th or the 1st.

Arena
11-28-2013, 05:14 PM
Yes ... I am trying to look at the zodiac according to directions.

When I was born the sun would be in Leo (actually in Cancer according to what constellation the sun is in reality - sidereal chart)...

I'm looking at the earth in relation to the Sun.

So at this time on earth we would be seeing the Sun in Leo (cancer) at noon from the earth.

Now I am born after sunset, so we should see the Sun just below the horizon on the right side of the wheel (but in my case it is shown on the left side of the wheel and Cancer is shown as the ASC).

If I let the sun move like it is a compass and it has just set in W-NW direction ... then it would be situated in NW at this time. ... so I put Leo at the NW and then the sign I would see at the east side of the compass is Aries and Pisces and could never be Cancer???

mdinaz
11-28-2013, 05:30 PM
I'd have to see a chart - I'm not following what you are saying. If you were born after sunset, and your Sun is in Leo, then Aquarius would be on the opposite horizon and Scorpio over head. If Cancer is on the ASC, then the DSC would be in Capricorn and Aries over head. If you live in the northern hemisphere, the Sun is always to the south because of the tilt of the earth.

JUPITERASC
11-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Yes ... I am trying to look at the zodiac according to directions.

When I was born the sun would be in Leo (actually in Cancer according to what constellation the sun is in reality - sidereal chart)...

I'm looking at the earth in relation to the Sun.

So at this time on earth we would be seeing the Sun in Leo (cancer) at noon from the earth.

Now I am born after sunset, so we should see the Sun just below the horizon on the right side of the wheel (but in my case it is shown on the left side of the wheel and Cancer is shown as the ASC).

If I let the sun move like it is a compass and it has just set in W-NW direction ... then it would be situated in NW at this time. ... so I put Leo at the NW and then the sign I would see at the east side of the compass is Aries and Pisces and could never be Cancer???
http://podcast.sjrdesign.net/images/024_SunPathDay.jpg



http://www.ecodepotusa.com/Education/SolarEnergy/Planning/Insolation/Planning1.gif

JUPITERASC
11-28-2013, 06:36 PM
http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/cel-sph.jpg
illustration by Jim Kaler

JUPITERASC
11-28-2013, 06:41 PM
Above the Arctic Circle at latitude 66.6 north
and below the Antarctic Circle, latitude 66.6 south
the Sun can be circumpolar in the summer
yielding 24 hours of sunlight and a midnight Sun (http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/midsun.html).

The farther north of the Arctic Circle

or the farther south of the Antarctic Circle
the more days of midnight Sun you will see :smile:

In the tropics
between latitudes 23.5N at the Tropic of Cancer and 23.5S at the Tropic of Capricorn
the Sun can be overhead sometime during the year
on June 21 at the former
on December 22 at the latter

http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/cel-sph3.jpg
illustration by Jim Kaler

Arena
11-29-2013, 01:01 AM
Yes I know because I live in polar latitudes and the shortest day of the year we have almost 24 hours vision of the Sun.

At that exact time it would be possible for us to see almost all the constellations I guess... except it is too bright :) ... the Sun is going down at North section

With the zodiac circle we are envisioning/pretending to have the Earth in the middle of it, right? ... So when I am standing on the Earth in summer in northern latitude where I am I should be able to see more of the constellations because the Sun is farther away from me and I see a bigger proportion of the constellations... but in the time I'm born the Sun is setting at NW and it stays under the horizon for 5 and 1/2 hours which means that we cannot see all the constellations , there will always be some of them "behind" at that time and therefore I do not understand how my chart would show the ASC in the next sign to mine.

So what I am seeing rising in the east horizon as the sun is setting in NW can hardly be the next constellation sign to the Sun sign? There must be at least one sign in between them at this time as the proportion of the day that the Sun is now not seen is 23% of the day.

But because the Earth is farther away from the Sun, it will now seem like it takes longer to move through the signs ... so this 23% becomes smaller portion as the Earth moves slower against the constellations. But not so that I would see Cancer at this time rising at 66 degr. N.


The Astrological Ascendant represents the point of the zodiac that was rising in the East at the time you were born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1DqwC7lRpk