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Arena
11-18-2013, 12:58 PM
I have found that many of you who are traditionalists seem to use the whole house system and have also seen the use of Alcabitus. Have also read that Ptolemy did not care for the use of houses, but his emphasis was more on the ASC/DCS and MC/IC axis as well as planets strength in terms of being in angular, succedent or cadent houses in respect to the axis.
Are any of the traditionalists in this forum or that are known - who do not use houses at all?

But everyone seems to agree that the axis are indeed the most important of all - both traditional and modern astrologers agree on that it seems. Right?

Article on the house systems:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob_print.html

*******
And over to the benefics and malefics.
Can someone give me insights into the benefics/malefics in traditional astrology?

I know that it is usually Saturn and Mars as malefics for traditionalists, and it can change if those planets are well placed or aspected, right? So if well placed or well aspected, they will not function as malefics giving the individual problems.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html
...and if benefics are badly placed or badly aspected they will not function as benefics?

Are there any similarities of traditional view and vedic/indian astrologers view into the functional malefics? F.ex. this astrologer who has a lot of good videos online (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmHHDlJP3bU) he says that if planets fall into the 6th, 8th or 12th house they become malefics - or if they are the rulers of those. In the case of Cancer ASC he says that Jupiter becomes a malefic to the native. Does this have any relevance into traditional approach?

I'm sorry for all those questions, but after reading a lot it still does not seem totally clear to me. :unsure:

poyi
11-18-2013, 01:18 PM
I don't belong to modern or traditional or Eastern or Western astrology. I use everything that works and give accurate reading as much as possible. In Chinese astrology there is only have one whole sign housing system, but in western I used Placidus cause I found them easy to use for me and I can get more information due to the methods I learned so far.

Axises reveal so much. I focus on AC/DC, MC/IC, moon nodes, vertex axises but also the polarisation of each pair of signs, as well as antisicon and contra antisicon, declination, interceped signs, exaltation/fall, rulership/detriment etc, I tend to read everything in pairs. So as the opposition planets Jupiter/Saturn, Venus/Mars etc to me everything need to be looked at in pair yin and yang as the true completion of the full story.

I don't see planets ruling malefic house automatically became malefic and also each house has both positive and negative potential. The whole chart need to be looked at.

And very often is a mutiple layer cake. I like to look at the horoscope as cake, how you cut the cake (cups, housing system), then the cake is built from many layers, you can also cut the cake side way and in angles from left top sideway down to the right. 3 dimensional views. And of course what type of cake, ingredients, how you blend the elements together etc. Hmmmm it may sound crazy what I said here. It is like a cake critic she will inspect the cake in all possible ways, tasted it and making judgement by reverse engineering what the cake was made of then evaluating the quality.

Arena
11-18-2013, 01:38 PM
Well, that seems to be "the mixing methods approach" :biggrin: - or what?

Anyway I do understand the making judgement by reverse engineering part ...but I am looking for the "right" methods to do this. Because if I want to reverse engineer my own chart (or others) ...then I first need to understand and decide what is most important to look at.


Do I use houses, and if I do - which houses?
Do I use the axis as main indicator of major events or not?
Do I use the ASC sign as indicator or main expression of the individual and what he may aspire to ... and then on the other side of the coin, the 7th house and it's ruler, what are the indications of the person's significant other?
Can we count on the 7th house and it's ruler to show us what kind of person will be the significant other and when/if the native will marry?
Can the ASC be looked for in a 5 hour interval if the recorded birth hour seems to be "off"?
How to see the most important planet of each chart? - is it usually the ruler of ASC - or if that ruler is not placed in house of domicile, joy or exaltation ... do we then look to another planet in such condition as the ruler - or is the ruler of ASC the ruler of chart anyway... or do we simply look if there are planets placed on the axis making them of utmost importance?
What are the malefic and benefic planets in each chart?


So you see, there are so many questions unanswered and there seem to be simply too many methods used by modern day astrologers and I must say bluntly that it is impossible that they all work.

poyi
11-18-2013, 01:49 PM
To me all systems work well. It is not the system but the reader. You can read how I read charts. Then determine if any of what I said making sense to you. You can't separate a single house or planet as a horoscope is a mix of many ingredients to form the way it formed.

I don't care about system I only care about acuracy and my goal is to perfect the skills to maximise accuracy so I will learned all tools and penetrate the chart in all possible ways to reach my goal of digging out all hidden secrets and messages.

I always look at the final dispositor of each axises and if any planet in it own dignity by sign or house that will be the most powerful planet and house then I build from there. This is my own habit of reading chart and has been working well so far. Some focus more on pattern first which is so also very valuable. The main principles should be looking at the larger picture then cutting it smaller and smaller to get the details and personalising the interpretation as you go deeper. I use both essential and accidental dignity which is traditional method, combustion, declination antisicia, some time Arabic parts, often fixed stars etc but also use midpoints, vertex some asteroids they all worked perfectly well and the more tools you can manage to develop and used well the more details you can get. It will be a very long process and at first confusing to learn wide range of methods but once you blend them in well in right ratio you can also make a good cake or know how to appreciate a tasty cake.

However intuition is some thing no one can learn but to be born with and intuition when accurate it can overpower mechanical techniques, my opinion.

JUPITERASC
11-18-2013, 02:11 PM
Well, that seems to be "the mixing methods approach" :biggrin: - or what?

Anyway I do understand the part ...but I am looking for the "right" methods to do this. Because if I want to reverse engineer my own chart (or others) ...then I first need to understand and decide what is most important to look at.

Do I use houses, and if I do - which houses?
Do I use the axis as main indicator of major events or not?
Do I use the ASC sign as indicator or main expression of the individual and what he may aspire to ... and then on the other side of the coin, the 7th house and it's ruler, what are the indications of the person's significant other?
Can we count on the 7th house and it's ruler to show us what kind of person will be the significant other and when/if the native will marry?
Can the ASC be looked for in a 5 hour interval if the recorded birth hour seems to be "off"?
How to see the most important planet of each chart? - is it usually the ruler of ASC - or if that ruler is not placed in house of domicile, joy or exaltation ... do we then look to another planet in such condition as the ruler - or is the ruler of ASC the ruler of chart anyway... or do we simply look if there are planets placed on the axis making them of utmost importance?
What are the malefic and benefic planets in each chart?


So you see, there are so many questions unanswered and there seem to be simply too many methods used by modern day astrologers and I must say bluntly that it is impossible that they all work.
DISPOSITION = a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.
For example:
"a sweet-natured girl of a placid disposition"

synonyms: temperament, nature, character, constitution, make-up, grain, humour, temper, mentality, turn of mind

The inherent disposition of malefic planets is towards hindrance/destruction/nastiness in general


Mars and Saturn are the traditional malefics
Venus and Jupiter are the traditional benefics

HOWEVER

In practice, the Sun is malefic with a planet when in opposition or square
and when in conjunction - except when conjunction is Cazimi,

and the Sun is benefic with a planet when in trine or sextile.


Abu Ma'shar states:
Quote:

'...And he [the Sun] impedes beyond measure one who is conjoined to him or approaches him.

For he who was closer to him in place will be more full of labor than all men,
and by how much more one will be elongated from him, he will be [that much] more fortunate.

For he who is approaching [the Sun] will leave no memory, nor will a trace of him appear....'

'Ö.He [the Sun]puts in order and destroys, profits and impedes, makes fortunate and unfortunate, sometimes raises up, sometimes puts down.

And he [the Sun] signifies the matter of religion and the hereafter, also judges and the wise, fathers and middle brothers, and the crowd, and yellow bile: he is joined to men and [also] criticizes them, he provides every thing that [someone] asks for, is strong for revenge, punishing rebels and evildoers....' Benjamin Dykes translation

also

BENEFIC PLANETS CAN ACT MALEFICALLY
MALEFIC PLANETS CAN ACT BENEFICENTLY :smile:

EXAMPLE OF MALEFIC PLANETS BEHAVING EMINENTLY
- CHARLIE SHEEN http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/charliesheen.html Curtis Manwaring, Astrology x-files

JUPITERASC
11-18-2013, 02:15 PM
Well, that seems to be "the mixing methods approach" :biggrin: - or what?

Anyway I do understand the part ...but I am looking for the "right" methods to do this. Because if I want to reverse engineer my own chart (or others) ...then I first need to understand and decide what is most important to look at.

Do I use houses, and if I do - which houses?
Do I use the axis as main indicator of major events or not?
Do I use the ASC sign as indicator or main expression of the individual and what he may aspire to ... and then on the other side of the coin, the 7th house and it's ruler, what are the indications of the person's significant other?
Can we count on the 7th house and it's ruler to show us what kind of person will be the significant other and when/if the native will marry?
Can the ASC be looked for in a 5 hour interval if the recorded birth hour seems to be "off"?
How to see the most important planet of each chart? - is it usually the ruler of ASC - or if that ruler is not placed in house of domicile, joy or exaltation ... do we then look to another planet in such condition as the ruler - or is the ruler of ASC the ruler of chart anyway... or do we simply look if there are planets placed on the axis making them of utmost importance?
What are the malefic and benefic planets in each chart?


So you see, there are so many questions unanswered and there seem to be simply too many methods used by modern day astrologers and I must say bluntly that it is impossible that they all work.
You mentioned using EITHER Whole Sign OR Alcabitius HOWEVER one uses BOTH for different purposes :smile:

Use Whole Sign to determine topic
- i.e. whether topic is money, home, partnerships, career, friends and so on and so forth

Use Alcabitius to determine planetary strength

greybeard
11-23-2013, 01:03 AM
Houses are quite useful.

They are attached to the Earth (the First House is always in the east) and so they represent the mundane, or surrounding circumstances (affairs) in life. They are the places where the cosmic influences (planets, signs and such heavenly phenomena) come to Earth and are made manifest.

The lords of the houses determine the nature of the affairs they represent and the operation of the planets inhabiting them, and in turn are affected by those affairs. Suppose the lord of the 7th is in the 2nd; there is a clear link between money and marriage, and one affects the other, something we see in real life. (Astrology itself is abstract, but has practical value when applied to life...thus, common sense is an astrological virtue).

It is known (by experience long and wide) that the meridian and horizon axes are almost always involved in major life events. Symbolically, they are the cross upon which Spirit is made flesh (comes into manifestation) and are the most individualized of all horoscope symbols. (A motion of just 4 minutes in time-- or its equivalent in spatial measure -- results in a change of one degree; no other horoscope symbol comes close to this level of refinement [individuation]). The four Angles are Turning Points (look at the motion of the sky with relation to these four points to see this: at MC and IC, the heavenly motion turns from ascending to descending and vice versa; at the Asc and Dsc, the heavens come into view and pass from view.) Turning points are critical in land surveying, navigation, and life. They are "critical events."

The lord of the horoscope (ruler of the Asc) is by no means always the most important planet in the chart. Different astrologers will use different criteria for locating the most important planet (or planets), so it is hard for me to tell you how to determine which that planet might be. Patience, study, and most importantly experience in reading charts will bring you to your answers. The lord of the horoscope does gain in dignity and provides important information in any case, but at least as often as not is not the preeminent planet.

Don't let the diversity of astrological "schools" and methods put you off. Explore. And strange as it may seem, many (not all, of course) of the diverse methods "work," some perhaps better for one purpose, some for another. If you consider the matter, you may see that astrology is, at base, a system of thought more than a means of translating mystical celestial influences to earthly affairs. If your mental "vision" is in harmony with the harmony of the spheres, astrology can give amazing results.

Arena
11-23-2013, 11:12 AM
DISPOSITION = a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.
For example:
"a sweet-natured girl of a placid disposition"

synonyms: temperament, nature, character, constitution, make-up, grain, humour, temper, mentality, turn of mind

The inherent disposition of malefic planets is towards hindrance/destruction/nastiness in general


Mars and Saturn are the traditional malefics
Venus and Jupiter are the traditional benefics

HOWEVER

In practice, the Sun is malefic with a planet when in opposition or square
and when in conjunction - except when conjunction is Cazimi,

and the Sun is benefic with a planet when in trine or sextile.


Abu Ma'shar states:
Quote:

'...And he [the Sun] impedes beyond measure one who is conjoined to him or approaches him.

For he who was closer to him in place will be more full of labor than all men,
and by how much more one will be elongated from him, he will be [that much] more fortunate.

For he who is approaching [the Sun] will leave no memory, nor will a trace of him appear....'

'Ö.He [the Sun]puts in order and destroys, profits and impedes, makes fortunate and unfortunate, sometimes raises up, sometimes puts down.

And he [the Sun] signifies the matter of religion and the hereafter, also judges and the wise, fathers and middle brothers, and the crowd, and yellow bile: he is joined to men and [also] criticizes them, he provides every thing that [someone] asks for, is strong for revenge, punishing rebels and evildoers....' Benjamin Dykes translation

also

BENEFIC PLANETS CAN ACT MALEFICALLY
MALEFIC PLANETS CAN ACT BENEFICENTLY :smile:

EXAMPLE OF MALEFIC PLANETS BEHAVING EMINENTLY
- CHARLIE SHEEN http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/charliesheen.html Curtis Manwaring, Astrology x-files

Thanks - yes I did notice in traditional astrology that Mars and Saturn are looked at as malefics and in modern they also consider Pluto to be able to make people suffer (but also gains, f.ex. money)...

As you probably all know I am trying to get a grasp of when malefics can be considered not malefic and when benefics are not benefic.
What I read so far tells me that when those two are placed in signs of domicile, joy or exaltation and are having good harmonic aspects with other planets they might be acting good - is that right acc. to your understanding as well? Or do they get worse by being placed in those signs of domicile, joy or exaltation?
I noticed that Mars in my chart f.ex. is placed in a good sign and also has mostly good aspects - so I wonder if it still is a malefic.

And benefics would be most "enjoyable" or effective when placed in signs of domicile, joy or exaltation, but acting differently in other signs that are not good for that particular planet and also if they are heavily aspected - although oppositions and squares do not always have to mean bad things, more like challenging.

Arena
11-23-2013, 11:15 AM
You mentioned using EITHER Whole Sign OR Alcabitius HOWEVER one uses BOTH for different purposes :smile:

Use Whole Sign to determine topic
- i.e. whether topic is money, home, partnerships, career, friends and so on and so forth

Use Alcabitius to determine planetary strength

Well I guess you kind of understand why I need to ask this question as I find that using whole house system seem less messy to me in my polar latitude - and when using other house system it can mean that 3-4 houses fall into the same sign and and then one house covers 4 signs and it kind of does not make sense to me ... but comparing all the different house system is just too much work ...already having so much work with finding the right ASC and learning about rectification and all kinds of methods :)

Arena
11-23-2013, 11:18 AM
poyi you said
I always look at the final dispositor of each axises and if any planet in it own dignity by sign or house that will be the most powerful planet and house then I build from there.

Just to make sure I understand you - here you are talking about the planet that would be the closest to each axis?

and then you said you also sometimes use arabic parts to get a clearer picture ... but in my view I think they might work, but you must have the right chart first before you can even start to look into them.

poyi
11-23-2013, 11:27 AM
poyi you said


Just to make sure I understand you - here you are talking about the planet that would be the closest to each axis?

and then you said you also sometimes use arabic parts to get a clearer picture ... but in my view I think they might work, but you must have the right chart first before you can even start to look into them.

All need to be considered, that is called Weighting. You have to understand how to weight dignity and debility. I am not solely talking about closest to axis, I had posted link to explain what is final dispositior.

Dignity and Debility
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

Final dispositor
http://theastrologydictionary.com/f/final-dispositor/

What is Domicile?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domicile_%28astrology%29

Thread about final dispositor
http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/48939847-75ac-44f1-b5e6-7d7f997088f6

Arena
11-23-2013, 11:43 AM
Thank you greybeard for helping - the last words of encouragement are useful indeed :)

Houses are quite useful.

They are attached to the Earth (the First House is always in the east) and so they represent the mundane, or surrounding circumstances (affairs) in life. They are the places where the cosmic influences (planets, signs and such heavenly phenomena) come to Earth and are made manifest.

Yes exactly, and this is why I do not understand at all how people can be using so many house systems that can give such different results in each chart, especially those in outer latitudes further from the equator ... but I've also been thinking of the possibility that it is not even right to "skew" the charts of those latitudes so much.

The lords of the houses determine the nature of the affairs they represent and the operation of the planets inhabiting them, and in turn are affected by those affairs. Suppose the lord of the 7th is in the 2nd; there is a clear link between money and marriage, and one affects the other, something we see in real life. (Astrology itself is abstract, but has practical value when applied to life...thus, common sense is an astrological virtue).


Yes, I am trying to get the hold of looking at the planets this way - they represent different matters as to where they are placed. But then you need to have the right house system :) I also have a hard time understanding the 12th house, there seem to be many different ways to look at it - it can represent enemies, losses, institutions, dreams, hidden things .... and the planets placed there I find very hard to understand. F.ex. having the ruler of your 7th and of your 4th and 11th is a mystery to me :)


It is known (by experience long and wide) that the meridian and horizon axes are almost always involved in major life events. Symbolically, they are the cross upon which Spirit is made flesh (comes into manifestation) and are the most individualized of all horoscope symbols. (A motion of just 4 minutes in time-- or its equivalent in spatial measure -- results in a change of one degree; no other horoscope symbol comes close to this level of refinement [individuation]). The four Angles are Turning Points (look at the motion of the sky with relation to these four points to see this: at MC and IC, the heavenly motion turns from ascending to descending and vice versa; at the Asc and Dsc, the heavens come into view and pass from view.) Turning points are critical in land surveying, navigation, and life. They are "critical events."


Yes, at least there seems to be ONE major agreement between most astrologers, traditional and modern to see the axis as most important for life-changing events. And some seem to use them for finding the axis in rectification. That is to say, f.ex. Lauren Delsack says she notes down on paper (or excel sheet) the degrees of the outer planets when major life events occur, such as marriage, divorces, baby born, deaths, job/promotions or awards, starting or finishing an education, moving houses or countries etc... and then when she finds particular degrees being "sensitive" to those events she decides they are likely the axis and begins to explore those axis as possibility. She also looks into the Saturn cycle, noting that every 7 years he is supposed to affect your chart (and maybe there is much more that I didn't read yet). What I do wonder about is polar latitudes and the axis being in the same two signs ... that is they are not forming a "cross" with almost equally big cakes inside.


The lord of the horoscope (ruler of the Asc) is by no means always the most important planet in the chart. Different astrologers will use different criteria for locating the most important planet (or planets), so it is hard for me to tell you how to determine which that planet might be. Patience, study, and most importantly experience in reading charts will bring you to your answers. The lord of the horoscope does gain in dignity and provides important information in any case, but at least as often as not is not the preeminent planet.


Yes I also noticed this. You find the ruler of the ASC and it does always play an important role in the life of individual... but then you also study to see if you have planets that are residing in signs of domicile, exaltation, joy and those will be important as well ... then you look at if planets are actually ON the axis and those can be the most important. Right?

Don't let the diversity of astrological "schools" and methods put you off. Explore. And strange as it may seem, many (not all, of course) of the diverse methods "work," some perhaps better for one purpose, some for another. If you consider the matter, you may see that astrology is, at base, a system of thought more than a means of translating mystical celestial influences to earthly affairs. If your mental "vision" is in harmony with the harmony of the spheres, astrology can give amazing results.


I guess I am looking for this "revelation" to occur with my own chart :biggrin: ... and IF/when I see that then I can use it for studying other charts.

greybeard
11-23-2013, 08:25 PM
The skewing of the houses in high latitudes is only the representation of actual fact. At latitudes above the arctic circle, the Ascendant and Descendant actually flip-flop briefly under some circumstances.

Each house contains many things. Some are simpler or easier to understand than others, but all contain multiple concepts. Patience. In order to understand astrology, you will have to wait until there is a sudden change in your mind. Keep at it and it will come.

Yes, angular planets are always strong. But there are many other things (you have mentioned some) that give or detract from strength. Again, patience...it will come to you if you endure.

Astrology is a lifetime study. I learn something new every day and have been "doing astrology" for over 40 years. Do the best you can where you're at right now and put one foot in front of the other.

JUPITERASC
11-23-2013, 10:25 PM
Well I guess you kind of understand why I need to ask this question as I find that using whole house system seem less messy to me in my polar latitude - and when using other house system it can mean that 3-4 houses fall into the same sign and and then one house covers 4 signs and it kind of does not make sense to me ... but comparing all the different house system is just too much work ...already having so much work with finding the right ASC and learning about rectification and all kinds of methods :)
dr. farr has studied astrology for at least Forty years
and provides the following useful synopsis
regarding house systems :smile:
I used Placidus for decades (with very good results) In the early 1990's whole sign (which had been lost until that time, except among Jamini Vedic astrologers) began to be rediscovered (as the works of the Hellenist authors began being translated)-I learned of it in 1998, it appealed to me, and when I tested it out I obtained even better (clearer, more accurate) results than I had with Placidus: I have continued to use whole sign (aka "sign = house") exclusively, since that time.

Basically there are 2 types of house division systems: quadrant and non-quadrant.
-non-quadrant formats are whole sign and Equal house
-quadrant formats are all of the rest

Historically, whole sign house format was the original method of house division (Equal house, very closely related to whole sign, may also have originated in very early times)
The earliest quadrant format was Porphyry, although this method was not applied to domification (chart house division) until around the late 5th/early 6th century.
-whole sign format suddenly disappeared (except among Jaimini Vedic astrologers of India) around the late 8th/early 9th century (and remained forgotten, unknown-at least in the West-for the next nearly 1200 years)...
-whole sign was replaced largely by the quadrant Alchabitius format at that time (although Porphyry remained a minority house division format) Alchabitius dominated house division up through about the 13th century...
-the quadrant Campanus format arose around that time, but never really gained much popularity
-next came the Regiomontanus quadrant format, which swept in and dominated European astrology for a couple hundred years, until...
-the quadrant Placidus format appeared in the 17th century: this system rapidly supplanted Regiomontanus (and the remnants of Campanus, Porphyry and Alchabitius) and became the predominant house system in Western astrology (in Vedic astrology during the centuries mentioned Equal house predominanted-as it does today-with a variation of Porphyry-called "sripati" in Vedic astrology-running close in popular application)...
-the other significant quadrant format, developed over the past century or so and a rival to Placidus especially among 20th/21st century European astrologers, is Koch...
-beginning around the middle of the 20th century, some Modernist astrologers began using the oldtime Equal house system, and continue to do so at the present time.

Currently, quadrant house systems (Placidus and Koch) dominate in Western astrology, with Equal house a distant 3rd (whole sign has been gaining adherents but still has only a small % of practitioners in its ranks) Contemporary Traditionalists mostly use either Placidus or Regiomontanus (with a very few using Alchabitius or whole sign)

tsmall
11-26-2013, 03:16 AM
I have found that many of you who are traditionalists seem to use the whole house system and have also seen the use of Alcabitus.

Right. When you are first learning, whole signs for topics is the way to go, and the way to stay. Overlaying a dynamic house system will help, especially with regard to angularity...but spend a year or so just with whole signs, using the degree of the ASC in each sign as the "cusp" of the house. You will be amazed at what you can get delineatively from this alone. Once you are comfortable with whole signs, you can begin to experiment with quadrant based systems. On the advice of many traditional astrologers, I use both whole signs and Alcabitus. For natal and horary.

Have also read that Ptolemy did not care for the use of houses, but his emphasis was more on the ASC/DCS and MC/IC axis as well as planets strength in terms of being in angular, succedent or cadent houses in respect to the axis.
Are any of the traditionalists in this forum or that are known - who do not use houses at all?

Ptolemy was not a practicing astrologer, and to answer your question...no. Traditionalists, no matter what era, need a base house system in order to delineate topics....refer to my reply above.

But everyone seems to agree that the axis are indeed the most important of all - both traditional and modern astrologers agree on that it seems. Right?

Right. At the end of the day, I count signs/places for topics and rulers, and look at house overlays for further understanding. The ASC is the beginning of all. The MC is the culminative point. That is why these two axis are so terribly important...though there are ways to delineate traditionally without the MC (If for no other reason than it seems for a period of time astrologers in the early centuries forgot how to calculate the MC...)


And over to the benefics and malefics.
Can someone give me insights into the benefics/malefics in traditional astrology?

Sure. Saturn and Mars are Malefic, Mercury takes on the nature of the planets with whom he is configured, and the Sun can be an accidental Malefic due to combustion. Like...oops, did I burn you again?? Sorry 'bout that. Venus and Jupiter are benefic, and the Moon wants to be, mostly, but even the Moon can kill....which all goes to say that we cannot simply answer your question, because when reading charts there are no simple yes/no answers.

I know that it is usually Saturn and Mars as malefics for traditionalists, and it can change if those planets are well placed or aspected, right? So if well placed or well aspected, they will not function as malefics giving the individual problems.

Not quite. Malefics will always be, well, malefic, regardless of how well placed they may be. Take an exalted Mars, in sect, and angular. Mars will work for the native, but he won't work against his nature. Which means Mars can bring about what he signifies, but the native will probably have to crawl over broken glass and walk on hot coals to get it. Same with Saturn, but in his case you might get hypothermia on your way to what he promises.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html
...and if benefics are badly placed or badly aspected they will not function as benefics?

Again not quite. Benefics will always try to be benefic, but if they are not well placed, or in sect, then you're going to get bad (sometimes worse than a well placed malefic) because they can't operate to the best of their ability. Kind of like the guy that wants to do good, but messes up worse every time he tries.

dr. farr
11-26-2013, 03:36 AM
I have substituted other terms (taken from physiology) for "benefic" and "malefic": I use "anabolic" (meaning tending to build-up) for the "natural benefics", and I use "catabolic" (meaning breaking-down and eliminating) for the "natural malefics": benefic and malefic, as terms, imply good (benefic) and bad (malefic), yet I believe this outlook leads to misunderstanding-ALL 7 planets are necessary for balance, NOT just the "good ones" (the "natural benefics"): applying physiological terms, I think, avoids this good/bad implication. In health one must have a balance between anabolism and catabolism, too much of one or too little of the other = illness. So too with the 7 cosmic principles we refer to as "planets" (and which are significated by the heavenly bodies) For me, the anabolics are the the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter-the catabolics are Mars and Saturn, with the Moon varying between anabolic (waxing Moon) and catabolic (waning Moon); beyond the 7 basic cosmic principles (7 traditional planets), I also include the outers (and consider them as catabolics) and the Nodes (North Node anabolic, South Node catabolic) Personally I prefer thinking of planets in these terms (anabolic, catabolic), rather than as "benefics" and "malefics"...

(Note: the outer planets are not considered in Traditionalist astrology)

tsmall
11-26-2013, 03:52 AM
I have substituted other terms (taken from physiology) for "benefic" and "malefic": I use "anabolic" (meaning tending to build-up) for the "natural benefics", and I use "catabolic" (meaning breaking-down and eliminating) for the "natural malefics": benefic and malefic, as terms, imply good (benefic) and bad (malefic), yet I believe this outlook leads to misunderstanding-ALL 7 planets are necessary for balance, NOT just the "good ones" (the "natural benefics"): applying physiological terms, I think, avoids this good/bad implication. In health one must have a balance between anabolism and catabolism, too much of one or too little of the other = illness. So too with the 7 cosmic principles we refer to as "planets" (and which are significated by the heavenly bodies) For me, the anabolics are the the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter-the catabolics are Mars and Saturn, with the Moon varying between anabolic (waxing Moon) and catabolic (waning Moon); beyond the 7 basic cosmic principles (7 traditional planets), I also include the outers (and consider them as catabolics) and the Nodes (North Node anabolic, South Node catabolic) Personally I prefer thinking of planets in these terms (anabolic, catabolic), rather than as "benefics" and "malefics"...

(Note: the outer planets are not considered in Traditionalist astrology)

That's not a bad idea, dr. farr, since there does seem to be an awful lot of misunderstanding surrounding the semantics of the terms "malefic" and "benefic." It does help to understand that we all need a bit of each. Regardless if we want anything catabolic...we get it anyway. Something must needs be destroyed in order to create again and anew, and there are certainly things in my life that I am happy, in hindsight, to have had destroyed.

IMHO, we can play with the words all we want, but at the end of the day they have the same meaning for those who are brave enough to well, brave them.

Planets will always try to act according to their nature, unless they find themselves out of sect, in which case they will go against their nature. That is why we want to see the "malefics" (catabolics) in places that are contrary to their nature...because that means they won't act as we expect. Unfortunately, the same can be said for the benefics (anabolics.)

The Sunís nature is to select
The Moonís nature is to gather and include
Mercuryís nature is to contest and to destabilize
Venusí nature is to reconcile and to unify
Marsí nature is to sever and to separate
Jupiterís nature is to confirm and stabilize
Saturnís nature is to reject and exclude

dr. farr
11-26-2013, 04:17 AM
I would only add-regarding Mercury's essential nature-to inform and to communicate (the "messenger of the gods")...

Arena
11-26-2013, 09:18 AM
Thank you all so much for responding and giving such informative answers :)

tsmall you said:
but spend a year or so just with whole signs, using the degree of the ASC in each sign as the "cusp" of the house. You will be amazed at what you can get delineatively from this alone.

Well well well, if I just only had the right ASC degree, it would be making my life so much easier :pinched: :unsure: :biggrin:

By my looks and appearances it seems to be a fire sign - and then I'm not sure if I'm Sag, Aries or Gemini ...but by BC birth hour without changing to solar hour then it is supposed to be Cancer rising which I find very unlikely, but am reluctant to ignore completely though.

Do all of you use tropical zodiac, or some use sidereal?

Arena
11-26-2013, 09:23 AM
... continued

tsmall you also said:
Mercury takes on the nature of the planets with whom he is configured, and the Sun can be an accidental Malefic due to combustion. Like...oops, did I burn you again?? Sorry 'bout that. Venus and Jupiter are benefic,

I've also read that planets that are close to each other or are in the same sign will affect each other?

In my case f.ex. Mercury and Mars are behind Sun in Leo and both planets are within 13 degr. from the Sun.

Also about Venus - well my Venus is placed within the same sign as Saturn - 10 degr. apart in Gemini (in tropical zodiac, but changes in sidereal to two different signs)

may28gemini
11-30-2013, 08:44 AM
... continued

tsmall you also said:


I've also read that planets that are close to each other or are in the same sign will affect each other?

In my case f.ex. Mercury and Mars are behind Sun in Leo and both planets are within 13 degr. from the Sun.

Also about Venus - well my Venus is placed within the same sign as Saturn - 10 degr. apart in Gemini (in tropical zodiac, but changes in sidereal to two different signs)


I'm the same way. I have 21 Gemini Venus and 29 Gemini Mercury. I consider that too far to be a real conjunction as a conjunction would be defined at 3 degrees, so I say I have Gemini Mercury parallel Venus. But then again, parallels work similarly to a conjunction anyway.

With conjunctions to the Sun there's various levels: combustion (up to 8 30 degrees), cazimi (0 17 degrees), and sunbeam (8 30 to 17 degrees).

Your Mercury and Mars would be considered "under the Sun's beams" as they're separated by 13 degrees.

tsmall
11-30-2013, 01:12 PM
Thank you all so much for responding and giving such informative answers :)

tsmall you said:


Well well well, if I just only had the right ASC degree, it would be making my life so much easier :pinched: :unsure: :biggrin:

By my looks and appearances it seems to be a fire sign - and then I'm not sure if I'm Sag, Aries or Gemini ...but by BC birth hour without changing to solar hour then it is supposed to be Cancer rising which I find very unlikely, but am reluctant to ignore completely though.

Do all of you use tropical zodiac, or some use sidereal?

Arena, I apologize that it has taken me so long to reply here. I am a bit confused. You have a birth certificate with a given time of birth, but you are unsure that it is correct? Is that because there is serious doubt about the accuracy of your BC, or is that because you seriously doubt that you are a Cancer rising?

I've also read that planets that are close to each other or are in the same sign will affect each other?

Planets that are close to each other...it depends on how close and where they are. Planets in the same sign are "assembled" and said to be "agreeing in the journey" or working toward the same end. If planets in the same sign are applying to conjunction or separating from conjunction will color the delineation. If the planets "close to each other" are in different signs then what you have is a possible out of sign conjunction. This was allowed for going back as far as the Hellenistic astrologers, but out of sign conjunctions had to be within 3-5 degrees depending on the astrologer you are reading. Any thing further apart and what you really have is aversion.

In my case f.ex. Mercury and Mars are behind Sun in Leo and both planets are within 13 degr. from the Sun.

Visualzation is not my strong suit. By behind the Sun, do you mean in earlier degrees in Leo? This would be "behind the Sun in zodiacal motion. Is Mercury direct or retrograde? If Mars is in an earlier degree, then Mars is escaping combustion (which is quite different than setting into the beams.) If Mercury is direct then likely he is applying to combustion. If retrograde then he to would be escaping.

If by "behind the Sun" you are referring to diurnal motion then Mars would be the one about to be overtaken/combust the Sun, and Mercury's speed would determine whether he was escaping or setting.

Also about Venus - well my Venus is placed within the same sign as Saturn - 10 degr. apart in Gemini (in tropical zodiac, but changes in sidereal to two different signs)

First you would need to delineate the condition of each planet on its own, then look to see if Venus is applying to Saturn (seeking to connect with) or if she is separating from (disregarding, no longer paying attention to) Saturn.

tsmall
11-30-2013, 01:32 PM
I'm the same way. I have 21 Gemini Venus and 29 Gemini Mercury. I consider that too far to be a real conjunction as a conjunction would be defined at 3 degrees, so I say I have Gemini Mercury parallel Venus. But then again, parallels work similarly to a conjunction anyway.

As this thread is in the traditional forum my reply is in that spirit. I'm a bit confused as to calling them parallel. Parallel implies latitude and declination, not position in the zodiac. Otherwise, traditionally they are assembled in the same sign, and while they would need to be 7* away from each other to be considered in each other's orb (in each other's strength by conjunction) we are talking about two very swift planets. Is one moving faster than the other? If so then you need to look at application/separation.

With conjunctions to the Sun there's various levels: combustion (up to 8 30 degrees), cazimi (0 17 degrees), and sunbeam (8 30 to 17 degrees).

Just for clarification (since I had to look at this twice myself) may28gemini is correct; combustion is within 8*30', under the beams is from that to between 15-17* (15* for earlier astrologers, 17* for later medieval astrologers.) Cazimi from Bonatti/Lilly onward has been defined as no more than 17' from the Sun, but earlier Persians (such as Saul, et. al.) gave an entire degree for cazimi.

As I already mentioned, it is quite important to know if a planet is setting into or escaping from the Sun's beams because each carries a very different connotation. Another distinctive point is that some planets are better able to bear combustion than others, which will add further to the delineation.

JUPITERASC
11-30-2013, 02:03 PM
Thanks - yes I did notice in traditional astrology that Mars and Saturn are looked at as malefics and in modern they also consider Pluto to be able to make people suffer (but also gains, f.ex. money)...
You posted thread in Traditional Astrology forum so traditionally Pluto is of no consequence :smile:

JUPITERASC
11-30-2013, 02:30 PM
Arena, I apologize that it has taken me so long to reply here. I am a bit confused.

You have a birth certificate with a given time of birth, but you are unsure that it is correct?

Is that because there is serious doubt about the accuracy of your BC, or is that because you seriously doubt that you are a Cancer rising?
tsmall FINDING THE RIGHT BIRTH HOUR - PLEASE HELP at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=513678#post513678 indicates that the OP seriously doubts being Cancer rising :smile:
... and to carry on a bit I must tell you that all my life astrologers have told me I was Cancer ASC and now after reading more into this I really cannot understand how they would say that if the looks hold true. Also I had like a piffany when reading description of 3rd house in Cancer that would not want to leave home or travel unless to visit family and then I decided that Placidus house system is way off in my case. I could not wait to get away to travel the world and even started to have loads and loads of penpals all over the world as a child ... wanted to go alone with my cousin for a trip abroad when I was 16 and parents didn't let me (I understand it now as I have kids :) ) ... but went to be an Au-pair when I was 18 and then moved again when I was 21 and lived abroad for many years. Does not really sound like a Cancer ASC? I read through what Kannon wrote on page 2 in rectification thread where he says it is impossible for some Blavatsky woman to be Cancer rising and I find the same true for myself.

Although I must say I could be so very shy as a kid - and I found a distinctive shift in that attitude when I was about 15-16 yrs of age and decided within myself that now I would challenge myself not to be shy at all anymore as it would not be of any use to me in life - would not advance me :)

Also read about health issues and can tell you that my nervous system and respiratory system is what I have to be careful with.

So I think I may be down to researching more into Aries, Gemini and Leo rising in 1st house - do those of you who know this art agree with me on that one?

tsmall
11-30-2013, 02:47 PM
tsmall FINDING THE RIGHT BIRTH HOUR - PLEASE HELP at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=513678#post513678 indicates that the OP seriously doubts being Cancer rising :smile:

Oh. Well, it's as good a way as any to learn rectification methods. If you remember, JUPITERASC, I too had serious doubts about being Libra rising once upon a time. :whistling:

Arena, you shall have to explore and draw your own conclusions...but my advice would be to stick with a chart using the birth certificate time, unless there is evidential reason to believe that the time was inaccurately recorded. There may be more to your chart than is currently meeting your eye/understanding. Ask me how I know...:wink:

JUPITERASC
11-30-2013, 03:24 PM
Oh. Well, it's as good a way as any to learn rectification methods. If you remember, JUPITERASC, I too had serious doubts about being Libra rising once upon a time. :whistling:
I recall interesting discussions on that theme and here's a link that may be helpful to Arena in that regard :smile: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41281&highlight=breaking+horizon
Arena, you shall have to explore and draw your own conclusions...but my advice would be to stick with a chart using the birth certificate time, unless there is evidential reason to believe that the time was inaccurately recorded.

There may be more to your chart than is currently meeting your eye/understanding. Ask me how I know...:wink:
Certainly the process of rectification of one's own official time of birth
is most instructive and useful means of increasing one's astrological insight

poyi
11-30-2013, 03:24 PM
Cancer is ruled by Moon, and in traditional astrology Moon, Mercury and Jupiter all rules travel. And Arena has Moon in Taurus so with Cancer Asc Moon would be in the 11th house that is possible to be fond/having luck & dream of travel while having Cancer Asc.

I never thought of Cancer Asc to love to stay at home. I have Virgo rising, but with an active 4th house even in the sigh of Sagittarius, and with Jupiter at IC, in fact, moved oversea but very home based kind of person. Also you really don't need to have Cancer asc to be staying at home all the time. A 4th house Cancer cusp and Moon in it can do that also. But the way, my own 4th house is ruled by Jupiter also living inside 4th house. The example of Moon in Cancer ruling over 4th house also does the same thing. I also know another example of having Cancer cusp in 4th with Venus, Sun in 4th in Cancer again very home based.

JUPITERASC
11-30-2013, 03:34 PM
Cancer is ruled by Moon, and in traditional astrology Moon, Mercury and Jupiter all rules travel. And Arena has Moon in Taurus so with Cancer Asc Moon would be in the 11th house that is possible to be fond/having luck & dream of travel while having Cancer Asc.
Keep in mind that as well as the fact that traditionally Jupiter rules travel,
in this particular case it is significant that Jupiter is Exaltated in Cancer
and therefore Jupiter is the Exaltation ruler of the Ascendant :smile:

Aspects from Jupiter to Ascendant
as well as aspects from Moon to Mercury
Moon to Jupiter
and
Moon to Ascendant are important factor
I never though of Cancer Asc to love to stay at home.
Exactly - Cancer Ascendants differ
avoid 'cookbook' astrology
although Cancerians may be fond of cooking
I have Virgo rising, but with an active 4th house even in the sigh of Sagittarius,

and with Jupiter at IC, in fact, moved oversea
but very home based kind of person.

Also you really don't need to have Cancer asc to be staying at home all the time. A 4th house Cancer cusp and Moon in it can do that also.

poyi
11-30-2013, 03:53 PM
Yes JA, there are many possibilities of how a native would love to travel and be allowed to travel with given condition such as through work, financial ability, and other opportunities or as exchange student or lecturer etc. If the traveling is due to the nature of work, it would very well be directly related to the significator of the MC's lord as well as 6th house as daily routines as well as in nature relating to providing services (in case of flight attendants).

With Cancer rising, the 9th house would be Pisces. With Sagittarius asc, the 9th house would be Leo. So the chance of often moving/traveling aboard or physically often moving could be equality high. In regard to birth certificate, unless you have extremely unusual situation that suggested you to have a birth chart off time for more than half an hour to hours, the most common error of birth time recording should be less than half an hour interval or even 15 mins. And in most cases, we are just common people with common birth. Unless it was proven otherwise. In normal circumstances, I think it would be easier to focus on using the current chart to review previous life events THEN to attempt predictive works. To prove and disprove with already knew data then do the same with future events until you reached full satisfaction, but all these will based on your astrological skills and logical mind/objective attitude.

Arena
12-03-2013, 05:33 PM
Arena, I apologize that it has taken me so long to reply here. I am a bit confused. You have a birth certificate with a given time of birth, but you are unsure that it is correct? Is that because there is serious doubt about the accuracy of your BC, or is that because you seriously doubt that you are a Cancer rising?

Yes I seriously doubt that I am Cancer rising.
I can see that you also had this same "problem" of having doubts about your ASC. Not anymore?



Visualzation is not my strong suit. By behind the Sun, do you mean in earlier degrees in Leo? This would be "behind the Sun in zodiacal motion. Is Mercury direct or retrograde? If Mars is in an earlier degree, then Mars is escaping combustion (which is quite different than setting into the beams.) If Mercury is direct then likely he is applying to combustion. If retrograde then he to would be escaping.

If by "behind the Sun" you are referring to diurnal motion then Mars would be the one about to be overtaken/combust the Sun, and Mercury's speed would determine whether he was escaping or setting.

Hmmm... actually I see by your explanation that those two, Mercury and Mars would be considered not behind, but ahead of the Sun in my chart, by a few degrees.


Am reading about all kinds of astrology now as the Cancer Asc chart does not make enough sense to me.

Although Aries rising would maybe not be as nice a person (Cancer ASC probably more likable) - it seems to fit better with me and my life... but maybe you are all right that I just do not know enough to be the judge of that.

I might add that I have already had a few accidents involving my head, (further supporting Aries ASC) including:
Serious fall when a small baby (my mother told me)
Serious fall on head so resolving in losing my front teeth (two times) and needing implant teeth.
Fall on my head so had to sew my lip.
Fall on head and had to sew close to my eye.

Have not had other serious injuries, except for removal of one ovary in Nov. 2007...and removal of appendix when around 22yrs.
But maybe it isn't even true that Aries Asc are more prone to accidents to their heads.

tsmall
12-03-2013, 11:02 PM
Am reading about all kinds of astrology now as the Cancer Asc chart does not make enough sense to me.

Ok, but if I may ask...what do you mean by "all kinds of astrology?" As in, what specifically are you reading?

Although Aries rising would maybe not be as nice a person (Cancer ASC probably more likable) -

This is why I ask what you've been reading. There is so much more to whether or not a person is "nice" than his/her ascending sign. Bonatti has an entire section in his "Nativities" that tells you how to figure out the quality of the soul. The sign containing the ASC is the least of it, and it has more to do with the benefics and their position relative to the Sun, sect...

it seems to fit better with me and my life... but maybe you are all right that I just do not know enough to be the judge of that.

I felt exactly the same when I first started viewing my chart in the sidereal zodiac. Having an assembly in Virgo rather than Libra seemed to fit better with the me I know. And Saturn retrograde in Aries seemed to explain my own head/sinus issues. Libra is lazy? Vain? Shallow? Mercury there isn't terribly bright? (I've a fairly high IQ.) Mars is exalted in Capricorn? Really?? :unsure: Every thing I read online (and all of it was generalizied cook-book modern "pop" astrology) just didn't seem to fit...

Where it fell apart for me was that my sidereal chart had way too much dignity to actually describe my life. Of course, my birth time isn't really in question, or if it is it is only off by a few minutes. Though there are many traditional western astrologers who use the sidereal zodiac with the dignities and do just fine. I can still look at a chart in sidereal and come up with some ok delineations, and I believe that that has less to do with the zodiac and more to do with understanding planetary phase and condition combined with traditional aspect theory.

I asked thousands of questions, and questioned everything, until I finally settled down to try and figure it all out. I lucked out here (at AW) in that, as I got sent on several sleuthing missions by some very good astrologers here. Sun and Venus in fall, Jupiter in Libra, Mars in Capricorn and wildly out of sect, cadent but in a stake...and yes, ASC in Libra with MC in Cancer ruled by a 6th house Pisces Moon. One of the things that really helped me was looking at other people's charts. If I could find something accurate in theirs in tropical, then there must be more to it that what I was seeing.

At that point, I stopped asking eight thousand questions about what I thought and started asking eight thousand questions about what the ancients said. And yes, I still drive people to the brink of exasperation with the endless questions. :whistling: Paul didn't take to kindly to questions...lol.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443

I might add that I have already had a few accidents involving my head, (further supporting Aries ASC) including:
Serious fall when a small baby (my mother told me)
Serious fall on head so resolving in losing my front teeth (two times) and needing implant teeth.
Fall on my head so had to sew my lip.
Fall on head and had to sew close to my eye.

Have not had other serious injuries, except for removal of one ovary in Nov. 2007...and removal of appendix when around 22yrs.
But maybe it isn't even true that Aries Asc are more prone to accidents to their heads.

Where is Mars in your chart?

I don't have an Aries ASC, and I can't begin to tell you the number of accidents I've had that involved my head/face. Mainly because Mars in the 4th (sign) has been ascribed to bring the native the "falling sickness." This could be epilepsy (which I don't have) or it could just be a very highly advanced form of fight or flight syndrome. Mars squares the ASC, and when stuff hurts enough I pass out. When I was three or four, I sliced my finger on peeling chrome from a chair back. It bled like crazy, but I was ok until my mother rinsed it out. It hurt so bad I passed out, hit my head on the sink and spent the night in the hospital with a concussion. I've had three other concussions since then, all as a result of falling from fainting.

I have looked and don't see anywhere that you have posted your birth chart data. I've found several "maybe" charts, but nothing to start with. I haven't got much time to look at charts from now until Dec. 16th, but if you pm my your data I can take a look then, and maybe answer any questions or at least point you in a couple of directions. Alternately, you could post your given chart here in the traditional forum (or in the RMC forum) and see what you get for replies.

Were I you, after everything I have gone through in trying to set a circulum for myself, I would start with the (Cancer rising is it??) chart your BC dictates, and then learn

Remember, Planet, Sign & House...always.

Perfection and Reception are Essential.

greybeard
12-03-2013, 11:40 PM
Frustration is part of the game. Frustration is a positive thing....

I wanted to learn Spanish. I lived in Mexico. I knew intuitively that if I spoke any English at all, it would set back my learning Spanish...and so if I saw anyone who looked American coming down the sidewalk I would cross to the other side of the street, to avoid speaking English.

That was the loneliest time of my life...Unable to communicate well with any other person. And then one night I woke up and realized I had been dreaming in Spanish.

I drove my unconscious mind into a corner by refusing to speak English. It either had to accept Spanish, or had to accept loneliness. It chose Spanish.

If your desire is strong, the frustration will help you. And then one night you will wake up dreaming astrology.

tsmall
12-03-2013, 11:42 PM
If your desire is strong, the frustration will help you. And then one night you will wake up dreaming astrology.

This. Just this. Is perfect. :love: I can't remember the first time I dreamed that the planets were trying to talk to me. They've been trying to talk to me ever since.

greybeard
12-04-2013, 12:15 AM
Yup. Once you get it, you never lose it.

Arena
12-10-2013, 04:58 PM
Hmmm... I still had to answer this one.
Thanks for your input tsmall... I guess you also have gone through your frustrations and doubts :)

Ok, but if I may ask...what do you mean by "all kinds of astrology?" As in, what specifically are you reading?

Last few years spent on studying chinese astrology.
Last few months been reading about "normal" western astrology, both modern and traditional.
Then found sidereal
Then found heliocentric and with that one I don't need to use houses (or maybe I'll find that they do when digging deeper :) )
Then found Magi Astrology and emphasis on Chiron for love and Ceres for business and am investigating that now.

So basically, have been trying to make sense of my chart - but am still not there :)

Have been reading and learning how to read solar returns, lunar returns,
read about rectification methods, many different ones...
read about profections (indeed interesting)

and then read about banking reform :)

This is why I ask what you've been reading. There is so much more to whether or not a person is "nice" than his/her ascending sign. Bonatti has an entire section in his "Nativities" that tells you how to figure out the quality of the soul. The sign containing the ASC is the least of it, and it has more to do with the benefics and their position relative to the Sun, sect...

Yes indeed there is more to your appearance than only the ASC sign ... but it should be a very strong indicator in astrology from what I've read :) ... aspects to the ASC and planets within the 1st house also play a big role.

I felt exactly the same when I first started viewing my chart in the sidereal zodiac. Having an assembly in Virgo rather than Libra seemed to fit better with the me I know. And Saturn retrograde in Aries seemed to explain my own head/sinus issues. Libra is lazy? Vain? Shallow? Mercury there isn't terribly bright? (I've a fairly high IQ.) Mars is exalted in Capricorn? Really?? :unsure: Every thing I read online (and all of it was generalizied cook-book modern "pop" astrology) just didn't seem to fit...

Well, I've been through all kinds of readings and thoughts - and had nearly just quit because to me it just has to make sense and now I've read so much and sometimes it fits with the Cancer chart, sometimes the Aries chart and sometimes the Gemini chart. Even events in my life are difficult to decipher.

At one point I thought that I must just not think of personality or appearance at all - only the events and see how they fit...but then you can play around with the house system and with Cancer ASC chart and f.ex. Polich-Page house system then LEO would fall into the 5th house which would also be the case if I use Aries ASC chart with whole sign houses.

I did find that the Sun 1st and Jupiter 2nd are the most important planets in my chart.


Where it fell apart for me was that my sidereal chart had way too much dignity to actually describe my life. Of course, my birth time isn't really in question, or if it is it is only off by a few minutes. Though there are many traditional western astrologers who use the sidereal zodiac with the dignities and do just fine. I can still look at a chart in sidereal and come up with some ok delineations, and I believe that that has less to do with the zodiac and more to do with understanding planetary phase and condition combined with traditional aspect theory.

I'm very much into seeing the reality of the planets and this is why I also started to watch online videos about astronomy and found the sidereal and heliocentric methods to study. I do not see why tropical should work if it is not using the real placement of planets in our solar system... but maybe both work - the REAL placements inside the solar system and also the RELATIVE or geocentric placements. ???

I asked thousands of questions, and questioned everything, until I finally settled down to try and figure it all out. I lucked out here (at AW) in that, as I got sent on several sleuthing missions by some very good astrologers here. Sun and Venus in fall, Jupiter in Libra, Mars in Capricorn and wildly out of sect, cadent but in a stake...and yes, ASC in Libra with MC in Cancer ruled by a 6th house Pisces Moon. One of the things that really helped me was looking at other people's charts. If I could find something accurate in theirs in tropical, then there must be more to it that what I was seeing.

I guess you are right that I should also look at other people's charts - but during this process I've come to doubt all other people's charts as well.
I was hoping to also get the same help/aid in this forum to help me figure this out - and I've got a lot of links and reading material, but not the astrologers real own opinion, except for one who thinks I'm Cancer ASC and can find all kinds of explanations that I can't ... and then got pm's from others who say it is impossible by the description of the person in my thread that it is a Cancer ASC person.

At that point, I stopped asking eight thousand questions about what I thought and started asking eight thousand questions about what the ancients said. And yes, I still drive people to the brink of exasperation with the endless questions. :whistling: Paul didn't take to kindly to questions...lol.

Yes, I guess I am also driving people crazy with all my questions. :)

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443

Arena
12-10-2013, 05:19 PM
Now lets go on with this on Mars.


Where is Mars in your chart?

It is placed in Leo (in tropical ... Cancer if sidereal), close to the Sun, ahead of it. It squares the Moon and Sun and trines Jupiter.


I don't have an Aries ASC, and I can't begin to tell you the number of accidents I've had that involved my head/face. Mainly because Mars in the 4th (sign) has been ascribed to bring the native the "falling sickness." This could be epilepsy (which I don't have) or it could just be a very highly advanced form of fight or flight syndrome. Mars squares the ASC, and when stuff hurts enough I pass out. When I was three or four, I sliced my finger on peeling chrome from a chair back. It bled like crazy, but I was ok until my mother rinsed it out. It hurt so bad I passed out, hit my head on the sink and spent the night in the hospital with a concussion. I've had three other concussions since then, all as a result of falling from fainting.

Me, I just read about Aries ASC being more prone to having accidents with their heads. I did not meet anyone who has fallen straight on their head as many times as I have as a GROWN UP :)

I have looked and don't see anywhere that you have posted your birth chart data. I've found several "maybe" charts, but nothing to start with. I haven't got much time to look at charts from now until Dec. 16th, but if you pm my your data I can take a look then, and maybe answer any questions or at least point you in a couple of directions. Alternately, you could post your given chart here in the traditional forum (or in the RMC forum) and see what you get for replies.

Were I you, after everything I have gone through in trying to set a circulum for myself, I would start with the (Cancer rising is it??) chart your BC dictates, and then learn

I did post a few charts, that is right ... the Cancer rising chart is the one that is a stated birth hour chart and the latitude makes the zodiac spin into Cancer although by astronomical view I find it very hard to imagine that I can actually in reality SEE Cancer rising to my east on the day I was born with my Sun in LEO. ... and also the problem with it is that I do not think it fits, but as you all have said, maybe I am wrong.


Thank you, I might take you up on that offer to have some more help doing this. My head is spinning and I wish the answer would just come to me in a dream.

One person says, Oh yes Cancer ASC can fit you because you have such strong interest in politics and the rebellious nature can be explained by Uranus squaring your ASC and you not being the obedient good child, but rather a rebel and violent child can be explained by Mars squaring your Moon - and also your directness and confrontational nature can be explained by Mercury squaring the Moon and in conjunction with Mars...

... and another one says - Oh yes Aries ASC really fits you as you really look like one, you have the natural leader aura to you and your rebellious acts/reforms in society really fits with Uranus coming into Aries in resent years and your running for political positions (power) fits with Pluto coming to your 10th house (rather than being in the 7th).

So you see ... in many ways probably a few different charts can fit me, all depending on how much astrologers are willing to "play by simple decent rules" or going to all kinds of sideways to try and find explanations.

I find it indeed also interesting to look into the heliocentric (REAL) placement of the stars without houses.