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Arena
11-18-2013, 11:20 AM
Hello to all traditionalists and thank you for many informative threads in here.

I've been reading a lot about astrology lately, both modern and traditional as well as chinese.

I don't find all threads back that I've already found good info - but I remember reading somewhere in here that in olden days some astrologers used to find the Lot of fortune (and spirit) and then they would turn the chart so that it falls on the ASC ... so meaning that your ASC would change to another sign. Then they would use this new chart as the "real" chart to read the person's fortune and personality.

Does anybody remember this thread? Is it a traditional practise?
Does anybody know this method and do you find it "true", "consistent"?
I have not yet seen anybody in here using it.

I read a lot of threads where Omnisphericus delineats charts and he recommends using Morinus software. I just downloaded it and am playing with it.

I can see that in that program it calculates LOF like this:
Diurnal: ASC+ (Sun-Moon)
Nocturnal: ASC+ (Moon-Sun)

...but it gives you a possibility to choose the opposite option for diurnal and nocturnal?

But when I go to the online arabic parts calculator:
http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php

then it just says to use AM or PM (but not really counting on sunset)
so they say ASC+ (Sun-Moon) is for PM births while ASC+ (Moon-Sun) is for AM births.

But what if you are born AFTER sunset, but in the PM category (just before midnight)? It is supposed to be nocturnal, but I am not sure which formula to use.

I also got a notification from a forumer that says your ASC can fall into a sign of 5 hour interval around your recorded birth time, 41/2 hours before it and 1/2 hour after it. In my case this is a range of 8 different signs :)

dr. farr
11-19-2013, 05:07 AM
The "Fortuna chart" (chart turned so as to make the POF the ascendant) was widely used for delineation in Greco-Roman astrology. The method fell out of use during Islamic transitional times, and has not been revived since (either in Traditionalist or in Modernist astrology) Information regarding using the Fortuna chart for delineation can be found especially in Manilius "Astronomica", although there is also information regarding this in an appendix to Zoller's "The Arabic Parts" book...

POF day vs night: the earliest (and the majority of later) Hellenists varied the formula for the POF according to day or night birth: Ptolemy, who rejected all other Lots (Parts)-also unlike the majority of Hellenist astologers of his time (they used dozens of various Lots/Parts)-said that only the day formula be used for the POF regardless of time of birth: many later practitioners followed Ptolemy's "rule": I'd say that in contemporary Traditionalist practice its about a 50/50 split; in Modernist astrology those who use the POF vary the formula according to day or night birth.

Arena
11-19-2013, 09:43 AM
Thank you dr.farr
So many varieties of methods :) yet another one that astrologers do not agree upon :)

Is there a way to find out by finding the real passion and aspirations of the individual in question? To find out whether Ptolemy's method of using always the same formula is the true one or not?

F.ex. comparing the fortuna point? In my own example it would be in Virgo by nocturnal method and in Aries by diurnal method. Those are very different kind of signs.

This website says:
THE PART OF FORTUNE REPRESENTS THE LUNAR PHASE.
WHEN THE PART OF FORTUNE FALLS BENEATH THE HORIZON, THE MOON IS WAXING.
WHEN THE PART OF FORTUNE FALLS ABOVE THE HORIZON, THE MOON IS WANING.

So you should actually be able to know that if the moon phase at your birth is waning, your POF should be above the horizon?
http://marianneohagan.com/astrology/part-of-fortune/

Here is also an article on the lots and most of them use either day or night formula - but I don't see clearly when it changes - does it change at midnight by (AM/PM) or does it change at sunset? This one says to use after sunset for night formula. Since the Sun is between the Ascendant and the Descendant, this is a night birth so we use the night birth formula.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htm

Are there specific events in life you can test out this POF and if it is really the right place?

I've noticed that you, dr.farr, put most emphasis on conjunctions - over other aspects it seems to me - is that a traditionalist view?

JUPITERASC
11-20-2013, 12:03 AM
Hello to all traditionalists and thank you for many informative threads in here.

I've been reading a lot about astrology lately, both modern and traditional as well as chinese.

I don't find all threads back that I've already found good info - but I remember reading somewhere in here that in olden days some astrologers used to find the Lot of fortune (and spirit) and then they would turn the chart so that it falls on the ASC ... so meaning that your ASC would change to another sign. Then they would use this new chart as the "real" chart to read the person's fortune and personality.

Does anybody remember this thread? Is it a traditional practise?
Does anybody know this method and do you find it "true", "consistent"?
I have not yet seen anybody in here using it.

I read a lot of threads where Omnisphericus delineats charts and he recommends using Morinus software. I just downloaded it and am playing with it.

I can see that in that program it calculates LOF like this:
Diurnal: ASC+ (Sun-Moon)
Nocturnal: ASC+ (Moon-Sun)

...but it gives you a possibility to choose the opposite option for diurnal and nocturnal?

But when I go to the online arabic parts calculator:
http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php

then it just says to use AM or PM (but not really counting on sunset)
so they say ASC+ (Sun-Moon) is for PM births while ASC+ (Moon-Sun) is for AM births.

But what if you are born AFTER sunset, but in the PM category (just before midnight)? It is supposed to be nocturnal, but I am not sure which formula to use.

I also got a notification from a forumer that says your ASC can fall into a sign of 5 hour interval around your recorded birth time, 41/2 hours before it and 1/2 hour after it. In my case this is a range of 8 different signs :)
The Sun alone determines Day and Night
i.e. relative to horizon of planet Earth from perspective of planet Earth

SO
IF
a birth occurs
AFTER SUNSET
and
BEFORE SUNRISE
then
that birth is definitely NOCTURNAL :smile:



Our EDUCATION BOARD has an article by Ray Austin describing exactly how to create your 'Fortune Chart' i.e. with Part of Fortune aka Lot of Fortune as the Ascendant

THE FIVE LOTS OF FATE, SUCCESS, YOUR FORTUNE CHART http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13197



ALSO
Published by ancientsky the following information is preliminary material from "The Five Pillars of Fate" book, based on the work of 2nd century astrologer Vettius Valens and his Anthology. Five of what are known as the "arabic parts" are the foundation of this astrological system which provides the most accurate method of predicting fame in the natal chart. Indeed, not only fame, but the general nature of a native's fate and fortune.

THE FIVE PILLARS OF FATE
FORTUNE AND DESTINY IN ASTROLOGY http://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five-Pillars-of-Fate-Fortune-and-Destiny-in-Astrology

FREE ONLINE TRANSLATION by Professor Riley FROM THE ORIGINAL ANCIENT GREEK
VETTIUS VALENS ANTHOLOGY http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

Thank you dr.farr
So many varieties of methods :) yet another one that astrologers do not agree upon :)

Is there a way to find out by finding the real passion and aspirations of the individual in question? To find out whether Ptolemy's method of using always the same formula is the true one or not?

F.ex. comparing the fortuna point? In my own example it would be in Virgo by nocturnal method and in Aries by diurnal method. Those are very different kind of signs.

This website says:


So you should actually be able to know that if the moon phase at your birth is waning, your POF should be above the horizon?
http://marianneohagan.com/astrology/part-of-fortune/

Here is also an article on the lots and most of them use either day or night formula - but I don't see clearly when it changes - does it change at midnight by (AM/PM) or does it change at sunset? This one says to use after sunset for night formula.
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htm

Are there specific events in life you can test out this POF and if it is really the right place?

I've noticed that you, dr.farr, put most emphasis on conjunctions - over other aspects it seems to me - is that a traditionalist view?
After Sunset use night formula

dr. farr
11-20-2013, 04:02 AM
1) Except for Ptolemy, all of the extant literature from Greco-Roman times regarding the POF shows the use of 2 formulas, day and night; this continued throughout Islamic transitional times, the only exception being Ibn Ezra (who used the day-only formula)
Only later did some practitioners use the day-formula only approach: also, almost all Modernist astrologers use the 2 formulas for POF: so, the mass of experience has been with the use of 2 formulas, ie the day formula and the night formula.

2) I have always used the 2 formulas, and I believe I have obtained very accurate indications from this application.

3) Forget about midnight:w00t:!! Not only for the POF, but for all other Parts that use day and night formulas, it is DAY TIME or NIGHT TIME (AFTER sunset) that count, NOT midday or midnight:biggrin:!

4) I believe that a strong case (based on the historical literature) can be made that conjunctions (and their equivalents) were considered the most important dynamic factor in the relationship among the planets-that the oldtimers gave conjunctions (and their equivalents) the highest priority.
I continue to follow this oldtime perspective-however, this is not necessarily the outlook of contemporary Traditionalist practitioners (but please note that I do not consider myself a Traditionalist-rather I am an eclectic in my concepts and methods)