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fullmoonlibra
09-26-2013, 12:49 PM
Venus?
Second house?
8th house?

fullmoonlibra
09-26-2013, 01:05 PM
A Venus Taurus quintile Jupiter Pisces (7th).
And a venus trine Part Of Fortune..
Don't know if that count too

poyi
09-26-2013, 01:25 PM
I think should first review the 2nd, 8th, and 11th house, their sign, condition of the rulers including aspects, midpoints etc. Then Venus and Jupiter are supportive planets. 5th house is the house of Speculation which can show if you have luck on speculation such as lottery and gaming with sports etc..And of course Part of Fortune.

JUPITERASC
09-26-2013, 02:37 PM
How can we predict if someone has potential for becoming rich?

Do we have to look at Venus placement and aspects or has the second house more say on it?

This is for peoplewho build on their own wealth.

But some people get wealthy through others. By marrying a rich guy for example.
And I think that has to do with the seventh house, eight house.

My Venus is in Taurus, and being in the 10th house I think I have to build up my wealth through a career.
And it is almost not aspected. So not that easy I think.
And with Virgo on the second house cusp I will earn a modest amount of money in my life.

Am I right or wrong about my own chart?
Delineating any one natal chart in detail and with any accuracy takes time - and may take many hours, days, weeks - HOWEVER there's in-depth instruction/discussion on the topic A NATIVE'S WEALTH at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=290545#post290545 :smile:
There are three main lines of thinking.

Ptolemy uses the Lot of Fortune, the Almuten of the Lot Fortune and any Planets that aspect the Almuten of the Lot of Fortune. The Almuten of anything is simply that Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity at a particular point on the chart.

33°24' is the same as 3° Taurus 24'. Venus is the Sign Ruler and Term Ruler, while Moon is the Exaltation Ruler. In a Day Chart, Venus would be the Sect Triplicity Ruler, so Venus has the greatest Dignity in that point. However, in a Night Chart, Moon is the Sect Ruler of Earth Signs and so Venus and Moon would each have two dignities.

In that case, which one, Moon or Venus aspects that point? The one that does is the Almuten. If neither aspect it, or they are equally close in aspect, then take the one that is in the correct facing, and if neither are, then take the one that is closer in degrees.

Sometimes you have multiple points, like the Almuten of Marriage. That is the Planet that rules the Lot of Marriage, Venus, and the Sun for women or Moon for men. The Planet that has the greatest Dignity in those three points is the Planet that actually rules marriage in that chart, and so when you did your Profections and Solar Returns, you would be looking at the Almuten of Marriage to give you hints that marriage is possible, then you would look at Primary Directions (using the Almuten) to determine the exact date (since transits are guaranteed to fail).

Ptolemy says the quadrant the Almuten is located will tell you roughly when in life someone will gain/lose wealth, and directed the any Planet that afflicts the Almuten of Wealth will tell you when they'll lose it.

Others of the Hellenistic group, the Romans, Persians and some of the Medieval ones use the Almuten of the 2nd House cusp, Ruler 2nd House, Jupiter (the general significator of wealth), and the Lot of Wealth (aka Lot of Substance or Lot of Possessions) which is ASC + 2nd House Cusp - 2nd House Ruler.

From that point they follow Ptolemy. Really important are Planets that afflict the Almuten of Wealth and from where. For example, a square, is it ten Houses away (a Dexter square) or four Houses away (a Sinister square). Dexter aspects (Dexter sextiles, trines and squares are more powerful than Sinister sextiles, trines and squares), and also is the Planet that squares (or opposes) the Almuten Angular or elevated above the Almuten.

The Almuten will give you hints at how you acquire whatever wealth you might get, through your own labor, through inheritance, through luck, through your own wit and cunning and skill, through arts and crafts and other Venusian things and so on, through leadership and command ability (like running your own business or running someone else's business) or other Martian things and so on.

That method is much better than Ptolemy's (who had a peculiar bias against Greek Lots) and when you start looking at a lot of charts, you'll see that the Lot of Fortune has little to do with wealth, rather it is about the Native's general fortune in life and the good and bad that happens to them.

Another method that is not as complex but worth the effort is that of the later Medievals, like Bonatti and Lily.

Here, you're looking at the the area 5° before the 2nd House Cusp up to 5° before the 3rd House Cusp. You consider any Planets in the region, plus the 2nd House Ruler and the Planet that rules any intercepted Sign in the region. So if the 2nd House Cusp is 15° Taurus and the 3rd House Cusp is 22° Gemini, you'd be looking at the region between 10° Taurus in the 1st House up to 17° Gemini and you'd look at both Venus and Mercury who rule Taurus and Gemini, plus any Planets in that region.

They also want you to look at Jupiter and the Lot of Fortune and any Planets that aspect Jupiter or the Lot of Fortune.

They pay more attention to the condition of the Planets, so, for example Jupiter as the general significator of wealth should be Angular, Direct, in Dignity, preferably in Sagittarius, Pisces, or Cancer and if not then in his own Triplicity or Term, Oriental, Diurnal and not in square or opposition to Mercury, Sun, Mars or Saturn and not Combust (and that's true for any Planet).

What you don't want to see is Jupiter in Capricorn, Gemini or Virgo, or Retrograde or Peregrine, Combust, Cadent, Occidental, Nocturnal in a Day Chart or other things like that, and especially not in square or opposition to a Malefic or Accidental Malefic (like Sun or Mercury).

fullmoonlibra
09-26-2013, 02:58 PM
Jupiter as significator.
It's in Pisces, direct and angular.
But square Saturn.

And ruler of 2nd house is in 8th house, in Mars and afflicted.

So maybe money is not that easy to gain.

I have moon in libra in second house, trine venus.

JUPITERASC
09-26-2013, 04:33 PM
Jupiter as significator.
It's in Pisces, direct and angular.
But square Saturn.

And ruler of 2nd house is in 8th house, in Mars and afflicted.

So maybe money is not that easy to gain.

I have moon in libra in second house, trine venus.
Still no chance?
The following comment has good advice regarding the assessment of wealth potential :smile:
Sextiles are the weakest, and a Sinister sextile from a Cadent House is almost a non-event (in fact from the 12th House it wouldn't even be an aspect).

I don't use Neptune, but to the extent that I would, I consider the Outers to be the Upper Octaves of Mercury, Venus and Mars. I would first look at the condition of Venus. A strong Venus, Direct, Fast in Motion, in an Angular/Succedent House, in her own Dignity would make Neptune strong. I'd want to see if Jupiter received Neptune by Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Decan, because any Reception is good, even if it's only simple Reception, and the more Reception the better.

Since Jupiter is the faster Planet, he's the one squaring Neptune and that square will be powerful if Jupiter is Angular or Succedent, and if Jupiter is Dexter, he has the upper hand and would decimate Neptune.

An Almuten can be Peregrine, or Retrograde or Combust (or all three and worse) and you would look at that when judging chart.

You look at it sort of on a "Scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest..." and if the Peregrine Almuten is in the 10th or 5th or 9th or 11th or 1st or 7th that's better than being in the 6th, 8th or 12th.

Also, you have to view everything in the context of region, ethnicity, parentage and socio-economic status. A middling Almuten that isn't very strong but isn't absolutely horrid would indicate "average" and if you were Middle Class, you'd be smack dab in the Middle Middle Class, or if you were Lower Class in the middle of the Lower Class and so on.

If there are indicators of a change in class, you'd go from Lower Class to the middle of the Middle Class, or maybe you go from Upper Class to middle of the Middle Class if the indicators show a loss.

And part of that too, is that you might end up better off, the same or worse off than your parents.

It's confusing. I'd prefer another term myself, but suffice to say that a Planet is Occidental when in the 1st, 2nd, 3r, 7th, 8th or 9th Houses, but it is also Occidental when it rises after the Sun.

You always want Venus and Mars rising after the Sun, ie Occidental, because they are Nocturnal or Feminine Planets. You always want Jupiter and Saturn to be Oriental, rising before the Sun because they are Masculine and Diurnal.

Mercury is a different animal. If the Sun is in Gemini, then you want Mercury Oriental rising before the Sun and in Gemini (a few degrees ahead of the Sun and not Combust), but if Mercury is Occidental, you'd want him behind the Sun in Cancer.

I ignore Uranus and never really found it useful in a Natal Chart.

Those are also called Welled or Deep Degrees, and they're exactly what they sound like, you dug your grave, or you made your bed and have to lie in it, or you dug yourself into a hole and can't get out, or you've trapped yourself in a corner like a cockroach.

In a Natal Chart, Planets in Pitted Degrees struggle a lot. Sometimes struggle is good, it's Nature's way of strengthening.

At other times, struggle gets to be a freaking headache.

If a Planet in a Pitted Degree is strong, it will survive the struggle, if not, then it's going to become tedious, if not downright frustrating.

Jupiter is just one of the significators of wealth. If Jupiter is the Almuten, then to help it, you'd want to see Venus in any aspect with Jupiter, or Mercury or the Sun in sextile or trine with Jupiter. Even Mars in Pisces, Aries, Sagittarius or Leo in sextile or trine with Jupiter would help (especially in a Night Chart because Jupiter rules the Fire Signs at Night).

The Moon conjunct, sextile or trine Jupiter, that would depend a lot on Sign, House and House Type. The Moon represents constant change and fluctuation, just like the song says:

O Fortuna! Velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis;
Vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,

egestatem, potestatem dissolvit ut glaciem.

Fortune, like the Moon
always changing state,
forever increasing and decreasing.


Hateful life:
Now oppressing then soothing
as it fancies,

Poverty and Power, [the Moon] melts them like ice.

greybeard
09-26-2013, 11:39 PM
Let me see...

If I have to ask about wealth instead of being busy amassing it...

When I was 21 I decided to become a millionaire by 24.
At 23 I realized my plan was not on track.
So I changed my goal and decided to become a failure.
And I've succeeded at that beyond my wildest dreams.

Good thing too, because now that I've learned to read a horoscope
I see that poverty is just my cup of tea.

I know people who were born to money,
And folks who earned it through their career,
And those who married money,
And I've had an uncle and a few friends who made a million -- and then lost it all...
There are those who dream of wealth and spend their lives chasing it, elusive butterfly,
While some people work hard all their lives and earn just enough to get along, but are content...

It's all in your horoscope, certainly

But one can say
Look to Jupiter
Or Venus
Or the Second House and its lord
And don't forget the Seventh, Eighth, Fourth, Fifth....or the friendly Eleventh.

And the student will look
And not see.

The chart-as-a-whole shows the possibilities, the potential.
There is no single key indicator for weath, or anything else.
And although a planet, or configuration, may show wealth it may also show loss of substance. Horoscopes are subtle things and must be read with care.

Does your chart show steely determination, or unbounded ruthlessness, or luck without limit... Is your chart filled with signs of frugality, an obsessive craving for comforts and luxury, or multiple marriages to men of means? Is virtuosity in your chosen field of endeavor an outstanding trait in the map?

Money is not an isolated thing. It is interwoven into the whole fabric of the life.

If you want to know what it is that indicates wealth in a horoscope, collect the charts of 20 wealthy people and study them. Every chart, as every life, is different.

poyi
09-27-2013, 11:03 AM
In term of Bill Gates' chart.

2nd house: Jupiter conjunct Pluto by 1 approaching aspect in Leo while 4th Sun in Scorpio ruler of Jupiter & Pluto, mutual reception as per modern rulership.

8th house Aquarius, 5th house Saturn 1 approaching aspect conjunction to Venus in Scorpio in 5th house, tight square between Saturn and Venus to Jupiter and Pluto. Venus in Scorpio is the ruler of 4th and 11th house.

Modern rulership for 8th how he gain other people's wealth, 1st house Uranus known as softwares developer in Leo, so ruled by Sun, ruler of Sun in 2nd house. Traditional ruler Sun is ruled by Mars in Libra, Venus in Scorpio, mutual reception as per signs.

Clearly in his case, wealth comes to him not because of Easy Aspects or Dignified Venus as per sign but through mutual reception. Also both Venus and Jupiter are in the right places 2nd and 8th house ruling the 4th, 11th while Jupiter rules 6th (2nd of 5th, wealth through hobby) traditional ruler of 9th house (ruler of 9th placed in 2nd, income and oversea connection). No matter what you use both traditional or modern rulership both say the same things.

Also Mars is the ruler of 10th house and Moon in 10th at 4th house mutual reception to the Venus in 5th. Hobby 5th>Career/Home>Fame 10th house Moon. See that Moon is chart ruler.

JUPITERASC
09-27-2013, 12:30 PM
In term of Bill Gates' chart.

2nd house: Jupiter conjunct Pluto by 1 approaching aspect in Leo while 4th Sun in Scorpio ruler of Jupiter & Pluto, mutual reception as per modern rulership.

8th house Aquarius, 5th house Saturn 1 approaching aspect conjunction to Venus in Scorpio in 5th house, tight square between Saturn and Venus to Jupiter and Pluto. Venus in Scorpio is the ruler of 4th and 11th house.

Modern rulership for 8th how he gain other people's wealth, 1st house Uranus known as softwares developer in Leo, so ruled by Sun, ruler of Sun in 2nd house. Traditional ruler Sun is ruled by Mars in Libra, Venus in Scorpio, mutual reception as per signs.

Clearly in his case, wealth comes to him not because of Easy Aspects or Dignified Venus as per sign but through mutual reception. Also both Venus and Jupiter are in the right places 2nd and 8th house ruling the 4th, 11th while Jupiter rules 6th (2nd of 5th, wealth through hobby) traditional ruler of 9th house (ruler of 9th placed in 2nd, income and oversea connection). No matter what you use both traditional or modern rulership both say the same things.

Also Mars is the ruler of 10th house and Moon in 10th at 4th house mutual reception to the Venus in 5th. Hobby 5th>Career/Home>Fame 10th house Moon. See that Moon is chart ruler.

Clearly there are factors additional to the brief outline you have mentioned, because from amongst those children born at the same location within a matter of only seconds of each other, Bill Gates was the only newborn who went on to fame and fortune as an internet billionaire :smile:

poyi
09-27-2013, 02:21 PM
Clearly there are factors additional to the brief outline you have mentioned, because from amongst those children born at the same location within a matter of only seconds of each other, Bill Gates was the only newborn who went on to fame and fortune as an internet billionaire :smile:

Yes of course many were born exactly the same time in there local community or even the same hospital there might be one or two astrological twins still those kids won't be born by the same mother/helped by the same midwife or gynecologist. And to start with Bill Gates chart although is A rated by Rodden still at a suspicious round about time as 10pm.

Other thing to consider as I mentioned above will be genetic make up from his parents that is not seen in the natal chart but of course affects one's inborn intelligence, as we can see all baby born that time as same ascendant and same planetary configurations. There are minor aspects and harmonic astrology can show more personal characters if we have exact birth time that might show WHY only him is the billionaire which regular major aspects failed to be personal enough to say WHY ONLY HIM! I am sure we have not included the Arabic parts, and other ancient technique here. Synastry between him and his parents, siblings and teachers or friends might had a lot to do with inspiring/pushing him the way he chose his path at that particular moment in life that he dropped out university to pursuit his dream.

My brief talk about his chart was only to show the links of the commonly used houses and planets on assessing a native's wealth potential. Life and destiny is not just about one natal chart and one birth time. It is about the environment, what sorts of people we meet at the right time.

Timing set by the Heaven, Opportunity provided on Earth and Harmony among People.

may28gemini
09-29-2013, 10:45 AM
I've noticed those who are millionaires to have strong 3rd house planets...such as Mars. Mars is a money planet, as in making money, and 3rd house, not often noted, but shows how the person views risk (in their immediate environment). Mars in the 3rd house makes a lot of sense to me as someone who takes risks at many given opportunities and ride with it- and that's how wealth/gain is generally created.

greybeard
09-29-2013, 12:05 PM
One in Twelve people have Mars in the Third.

Take 100 people with Mars in the Third...how many will be millionaires?

(according to Wikipedia) "As of 2008, there were 10 million people around the globe who are classified as U.S.-dollar millionaires.[4]" Assuming 7 billion people presently taking up space on the planet, this yields 1.4% of the world's population in that category.

Now, if one-and-one-half people out of every hundred are millionaires, and 8-1/2 people out of 100 have Mars in the Third....and if all millionaires have Mars in the Third (which is clearly not true), then our predictive batting average for "Mars in the Third signifies the potential for great wealth" is about 16%, nowhere near an acceptable rate of successful prediction. [That is, if we see Mars in the Third and tell our client "You will become a millionaire", and IF ALL MILLIONAIRES HAVE MARS IN THE THIRD, then our prediction will be correct 16% of the time. Even the weather man does better than that.]

Also, I'm quite sure that more millionaires than not inherited rather than earned (or stole) their wealth.... John Kerry, the Kennedys, Patty Hearst, John McCain all come to mind...For every single individual who amasses wealth on his own, there are numerous children and grandchildren in the nest with beaks gaping wide. I had dinner tonght with a millionaire sitting a couple tables away. He is the pater familias (the one who first created the wealth). He has at least 4 sons (and perhaps some daughters) who all have wives and children. And each one of them is or will be a millionaire.

I fail to understand (yes, I'm a bit obtuse) the logical connection between the Third and money. I can see Mars as "risk-taking". The Fifth House is the house of risk...speculation, gambling, the expenditure of self in pursuit of one's goals, dreams, interests (the Fifth is a house of profligacy as well)...

The problem with this is not "Mars in the Third signifies potential for wealth" of itself. The problem is the mind-set that insists on seeking out some single indicator for something. Astrology just doesn't work that way. We can't expect to find "wealth" by just looking to Venus, or to Jupiter, or the Second House.... We must carefully examine the Whole Chart, including things that may seem to hold no connection to wealth.

What personal qualities (character traits) do self-made millionaires have in common? If we don't find at least some of them in a chart, we are not likely to be looking at the horoscope of a millionaire, unless the wealth is inherited, won in the lottery, etc. Character is destiny. The word "is" (I hope Bill Clinton reads this) is the same thing as an "Equals sign (=)" [Character = Destiny]. If you are going to become a millionaire you must have the character of a millionaire. Hey, Bill Clinton is a self-made millionaire. He has Mars in the First, conjuct Neptune. Instead of reading books or speculating with no foundation in experience, if you want to know "what makes a milionaire", study the charts of millionaires and find out for yourself.

Zarathu
09-29-2013, 12:23 PM
What constitues having money? Being very very wealthy or having enough to live comfortably. I live in an areas where both kinds of people exist and are friends with each other.

I'm friends with a person of a family name that Everyone in America would recognize as being very very wealthy.

Money beyond the basic needs means very little.

JUPITERASC
09-29-2013, 02:38 PM
What constitues having money? Being very very wealthy or having enough to live comfortably. I live in an areas where both kinds of people exist and are friends with each other.

I'm friends with a person of a family name that Everyone in America would recognize as being very very wealthy.

Money beyond the basic needs means very little.
Exactly. The dude who cleans my windows is a millionaire :smile:

Zarathu
09-29-2013, 03:08 PM
Exactly. The dude who cleans my windows is a millionaire:smile:

If you're paying that much, Heck, I'll clean your windows for you for half what you're paying him.

JUPITERASC
09-29-2013, 04:58 PM
If you're paying that much, Heck, I'll clean your windows for you for half what you're paying him.
We're friends

Plus the cost is a bargain in my opinion :smile:

Zarathu
09-29-2013, 07:22 PM
we're friends

plus the cost is a bargain in my opinion :smile:

Rotflmfao!

JUPITERASC
09-29-2013, 09:11 PM
Rotflmfao!
laughter is the best medicine :smile:

JUPITERASC
09-29-2013, 09:22 PM
The problem with this is not "Mars in the Third signifies potential for wealth" of itself.

The problem is the mind-set that insists on seeking out some single indicator for something.

Astrology just doesn't work that way. We can't expect to find "wealth" by just looking to Venus, or to Jupiter, or the Second House....

We must carefully examine the Whole Chart, including things that may seem to hold no connection to wealth
Exactly it is so important to consider the chart as a whole, for a balanced perspective :smile:

The Almuten will give you hints at how you acquire whatever wealth you might get,
through your own labor,
through inheritance,
through luck,
through your own wit and cunning and skill,
through arts and crafts and other Venusian things and so on,
through leadership and command ability (like running your own business or running someone else's business)
or other Martian things and so on.

That method is much better than Ptolemy's (who had a peculiar bias against Greek Lots) and when you start looking at a lot of charts, you'll see that the Lot of Fortune has little to do with wealth, rather it is about the Native's general fortune in life and the good and bad that happens to them.

may28gemini
09-30-2013, 06:58 AM
Whoops semantics war. The question should have really stated "money making potential" to be more specific.

It's not like 1/12 people have Mars in the 3rd house. You're a more seasoned astrologer and you know it doesn't break down evenly like that. I'm not an astrologer and I can easily say, numerically it doesn't break down like that. Let's look at a bunch of millionaires and billionaires chart and see what they got in their 3rd houses.

greybeard
09-30-2013, 07:54 AM
If one uses whole sign houses, it breaks down exactly like that.
There may be some slight variation in some quadrant house systems, but the figure is close enough for government work.

Here are the charts of some milionaire/billionaire type folks. Some made it out of nothing, some came from comfortable means, some inherited wealth. Each has a different history. They were chosen at random. The starting point for each of them is immaterial, because it's what they did with what they had that is being measured: "money-making potential."

In Gates' chart, Mars appears in the 3rd, but is in the 4th (Mars 11 Libra, IC 5 Libra). Of 5 random millionaires, one has Mars in 3rd, for a 20% rate of prediction, which is the figure suggested above (16% = in the range of 12-20% accuracy.) Certainly, 5 charts are not a significant sample; a considerable number of charts should be examined. Charts of millionaires are easily found for study.

If people would each contribut 5 charts of millionaires, without having prior knowledge of the chart structure, it wouldn't take long to make a collection of 60-100 charts, sufficient to get a feeling for the position of Mars or any other planet, without anyone breaking a sweat.

greybeard
09-30-2013, 08:29 AM
Here are another 5 charts:
The chart of Ernest Gallo shows Mars in 3rd; it is in 4th (Mars 16, IC 13). Again, 20%.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to accumulate an equal number of charts of people who either lost what they had or were never able to rise out of poverty for comparison.

may28gemini
09-30-2013, 08:56 AM
I know you and a lot of people here like to play semantics war but let me remind you, I stated my observation as "strong 3rd house planets...such as Mars" which means I'm not saying that people with a lot of money wealth who earned it all have particularly Mars in the 3rd house- that was an example of a "strong planet" in the 3rd house. I liken the 3rd house because it's the house of risk (in immediate environment) which can create wealth. It's not an absolute and not everyone with money will have anything in the 3rd but I have noticed a lot do

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/John_D._Rockefeller
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Andrew_Carnegie
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Charles_M._Schwab
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/J._P._Morgan
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Aristotle_Onassis

I picked out 5 famous wealthy persons...all dead.
Onassis had Jupiter in 3rd.
JP Morgan has loaded 3rd house of Sun, Venus, Mercury, Pluto.
Schwab had anaretic Sun in 3rd.
Carnegie had no planets in 3rd house.
JDR had Moon in 3rd.

None of my examples had particular Mars in 3rd but 4/5 had strong planets in their 3rd which is my assertion.

greybeard
09-30-2013, 09:27 AM
There is no war of any kind as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not a mathematician, but I think the chance of any planet (there was no definition of "powerful" given) being in the 3rd (taking Sun-Mercury-Venus as "one planet" because always near each other and tending to concentration) is about 68%, or 2 in 3. Occurrence of a planet in the 3rd would have to be substantially higher than that to be significant.

If we are taking the presence of "any powerful planet" in the Third as our measure -- rather than planets determined toward earning power only -- then the logic of houses and planets is lost. The Third has never traditionally (2300 years of observation and experience) been associated with money. The Fifth House is the house of Risk, that is the orientation of the native toward risk in any situation. Its descriptors inform us as to whether the native is inclined to enter into ventures of high risk, or assume ony calculated risks, or to avoid risky ventures altogether. I don't understand the connection between "risk," "immediate environment" and "money."

poyi
09-30-2013, 10:27 PM
There is no war of any kind as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not a mathematician, but I think the chance of any planet (there was no definition of "powerful" given) being in the 3rd (taking Sun-Mercury-Venus as "one planet" because always near each other and tending to concentration) is about 68%, or 2 in 3. Occurrence of a planet in the 3rd would have to be substantially higher than that to be significant.

If we are taking the presence of "any powerful planet" in the Third as our measure -- rather than planets determined toward earning power only -- then the logic of houses and planets is lost. The Third has never traditionally (2300 years of observation and experience) been associated with money. The Fifth House is the house of Risk, that is the orientation of the native toward risk in any situation. Its descriptors inform us as to whether the native is inclined to enter into ventures of high risk, or assume ony calculated risks, or to avoid risky ventures altogether. I don't understand the connection between "risk," "immediate environment" and "money."

From memory, I believed this idea might had came from Vedic astrology and in Western as well Mercury is highly recognised as the planet of business, calculation of cost and profit, trades, communication and flows in business. In Vedic as well as in western but not used this way unless there is a planet in the house, in Vedic 5th aspect both 1st and 3rd houses. Both mercury and Saturn in Vedic are natural friends of Venus (Naisagik).

JUPITERASC
09-30-2013, 10:57 PM
From memory, I believed this idea might had came from Vedic astrology and in Western as well Mercury is highly recognised as the planet of business, calculation of cost and profit, trades, communication and flows in business. In Vedic as well as in western but not used this way unless there is a planet in the house, in Vedic 5th aspect both 1st and 3rd houses. Both mercury and Saturn in Vedic are natural friends of Venus (Naisagik).
Every millionaire does not necessarily have Mercury in 3rd house :smile: Of the Billion or more people with Mercury ruled sign on 3rd house, obviously not all are millionaires

poyi
09-30-2013, 11:52 PM
Every millionaire does not necessarily have Mercury in 3rd house :smile: Of the Billion or more people with Mercury ruled sign on 3rd house, obviously not all are millionaires

As the matter of fact, I was only stating what I remember from some Vedic articles that I read in the past. Not really read deep into it. But interesting concepts from the Vedic practice.

This is a fun video to watch. He has a very interesting interpretation of wealth, not exactly needed to be millionaire to fulfill your desire. So in Vedic, they have a different view of Wealth which means sense to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN2OQUrlc5A

I think this video explained briefly how wealth comes from different sources in all kind of combinations. Very interesting concepts to consider. It makes a lot of sense to me. Even is Vedic astrology, but I can see the same concepts can be applied to Western in many ways.

waybread
09-30-2013, 11:52 PM
Here is Warren Buffet's chart.

Obviously it helps if people are born into better-off families. Some astrologers think you can see the wealth of the parents from derivatives of the birth chart, but it would have to be relative. In a populous poor country, for example.

The key is to consider how people manage the money they have. A 12-year-old could start with a poor background, but if she learns about compound interest and starts saving her baby-sitting money then, she should be better positioned as an adult to move from strength to strength.

Also see whether the person appears vulnerable to some sort of deception or sudden reversal of fortunes (easy come, easy go.) Is the person ambitious? Sometimes people inherit money but don't know how to hang onto it.

Jupiter falls in Capricorn, but this might just be the signature of someone who benefits from shrewd money management.

Here is Warren Buffet's chart.

dr. farr
10-01-2013, 03:27 AM
In the whole sign Buffet chart:
-note the dispositor of the ascendant, Jupiter, is in exaltation in Cancer (and in the 8th house-house of inheritance and "other people's money")
-Lucky Strike North Node is in the 5th house (speculations, playing the market) and is in trine relationship with the exalted Jupiter-disposited ascending degree
-ascending sign Moon sextiles Mercury, the latter planet at the high point of the chart (a domiciled Venus is conjunct the MC, the MC, Mercury and Venus all in the 11th whole sign house of the chart-the house of friends, associates, hopes, wishes, and the Good Spirit)
-Saturn (rx = strong?? yes, according to Vedic astrology!) posited in dignity (domicle) in Capricorn in the 2nd whole sign house (house of substance, $$ house), trine both Sun and Neptune (both latter planets posited in the 10th whole sign house of career advancement and achievements)
-atmakaraka point in the chart is the Part of Fortune, posited in fertile Pisces, angular (4th whole sign house) and disposited by exalted Jupiter
(Venus though is conjunct the SN, which also posits the 11th house-might indicate nefarious actions were perhaps also involved in the native's amassing of great wealth)

waybread
10-01-2013, 04:22 PM
Thank you, Dr. Farr. :cool:

Usually I just stick with my old tried & true Placidus houses-- except when I don't. Somehow they didn't make so much sense with this chart. I thought that powerful Saturn in the second was actually a positive for Buffet-- a prudent money-manager, not a get-rich-quick kind of guy. But sun-Neptune looked visionary to me: it's not always an indicator of deception or substance abuse.

may28gemini
10-02-2013, 03:00 PM
There is no war of any kind as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not a mathematician, but I think the chance of any planet (there was no definition of "powerful" given) being in the 3rd (taking Sun-Mercury-Venus as "one planet" because always near each other and tending to concentration) is about 68%, or 2 in 3. Occurrence of a planet in the 3rd would have to be substantially higher than that to be significant.

If we are taking the presence of "any powerful planet" in the Third as our measure -- rather than planets determined toward earning power only -- then the logic of houses and planets is lost. The Third has never traditionally (2300 years of observation and experience) been associated with money. The Fifth House is the house of Risk, that is the orientation of the native toward risk in any situation. Its descriptors inform us as to whether the native is inclined to enter into ventures of high risk, or assume ony calculated risks, or to avoid risky ventures altogether. I don't understand the connection between "risk," "immediate environment" and "money."

Again, using semantics and technicalities to default on when you purposely picked a specific portion of my observation to trash. I never said that those who have strong 3rd house planets will become or are wealthy. I said that I've noticed a lot of the wealthy charts had strong planets in their 3rd.

And for the record, yeah, 5th house is traditionally associated with "risk" when it comes to gambling/play but 3rd house "risk" is spontaneous/environmental context.

[deleted attacking comment by request - Moderator]

poyi
12-14-2013, 02:24 PM
Listening to Brady's Profession and Money in the Natal Chart using Medieval method in Whole Sign Housing. Calculating Wealth Ability by using Part OF Fortune (Lot of Fortune, Fortuna) and finding out the Place of Acquiring.

Category 1: Wealth Ability (scoring system)

1.1 Ruler of the POF
a.----in Rulership=2
b.----in Exaltation=2
c.----Ruler of POF aspects Angles=2
d.----Ruler of the Ascendant=2

Example: If you have POF in Cancer, your ruler as Moon in Taurus then you gain 2 points.

1.2 The Term Ruler of the POF
a.----in Rulership=1
b.----in Exaltation=1
c.----Term ruler aspects Angles=1
d.----Term ruler aspects Ascendant=1

Example: If you have POF in Cancer, the term ruler would be, for example Saturn for the whole 30 degrees of Cancer, if Saturn is in Capricorn then you score 1 (Please refer to Ptolemy's Dignity table or Egyptian terms). If Saturn as the term ruler also aspect the MC/DC/IC then you score 1 or score 2 if aspecting the AC.

1.3 The POF aspecting the angles=1

Example: If you have POF in Cancer and at MC, it would aspect all angles but will only give you 1 score.

1.4 One of the Rulers (Rulership or Term rulers) of the POF aspecting the POF=2 (if more then one then they each scores 2)

1.5 The Moon aspecting the POF=3

1.6 The Term ruler of the Moon aspecting the POF=1

Less than 2: Struggling and great difficulty in gaining money.
Between 2-5: Moderate ability to gain money. Middle-upper income.
Greater than 5: Should be quite comfortable. The Midas Touch.

Category 2: The Desire for Wealth

2.1 House of the POF Angular=Strong
2.2 Succedent= Secondary to other passions
2.3 Cadent= Not very interested

One does not need to have the Desire to be wealthy as long as you score high in Category 1.

Category 3: The Place of Acquiring

3.1 Sign ruling the 11th House/Sign from the POF, look at the meaning, association or area of Life.

3.2 Natal House of the ruler of the 11th sign from the POF, look at the meaning, association or area of life.

Zarathu
12-14-2013, 02:51 PM
The following threads this past year covered wealth:


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68404&highlight=wealth+potential

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68191&highlight=wealth+potential

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62175&highlight=wealth+potential

[edited to remove links above the limit of three links per posting - Moderator]

poyi
12-14-2013, 03:08 PM
If we use Oprah Winfrey's birth chart, rating as A for birth time accuracy, we can attempt to use POF solely to analyze her wealth.
Using Whole Sign House and Ptolemy's table.


Category 1: Wealth Ability (scoring system)

1.1 Ruler of the POF
a.----in Rulership=2
NO

b.----in Exaltation=2
NO

c.----Ruler of POF aspects Angles=2
YES
Jupiter rules Pisces aspects Angles= 2 (Trine MC, sextile IC)

d.----Ruler of the Ascendant=2
YES
Jupiter rules both POF and Ascendant!= 2

1.2 The Term Ruler of the POF
a.----in Rulership=1
YES
Mars in Scorpio as the term ruler of Pisces POF, Mars in his Rulership= 1

b.----in Exaltation=1
NO

c.----Term ruler aspects Angles=1
NO

d.----Term ruler aspects Ascendant=1
NO

1.3 The POF aspecting the angles=1
NO

1.4 One of the Rulers (Rulership or Term rulers) of the POF aspecting the POF=2 (if more than one then they each scores 2)
YES
Saturn as the term ruler of the Pisces trine POF= 2

1.5 The Moon aspecting the POF=3
YES
Moon trine POF= 3

1.6 The Term ruler of the Moon aspecting the POF=1
YES
Saturn as the Term ruler of the Sagittarius Moon trine POF= 1

Total score of 11

Less than 2: Struggling and great difficulty in gaining money.
Between 2-5: Moderate ability to gain money. Middle-upper income.
Greater than 5: Should be quite comfortable. The Midas Touch.

Category 2: The Desire for Wealth

House of the POF Angular=Strong
Succedent= Secondary to other passions
Cadent= Not very interested

YES POF in 4th house.

Category 3: The Place of Acquiring

Sign ruling the 11th House/Sign from the POF, look at the meaning, association or area of Life.

The 11th house from the POF is 2nd house which is in Capricorn with North Node in it that is a sign of authority, and management, ambition and business emperor, large organization located in her 2nd house own talent and self possession.

Natal House of the ruler of the 11th sign from the POF, look at the meaning, association or area of life.

So it is Saturn in Scorpio in 12th house, a lot of her program is about liberation of the suffering of common people, uncovering hidden matters of the society that is rather traumatic, with high element of spirituality. Mars in Scorpio is in dignity. It is interesting that very often Mars Saturn association is highly related to hidden sexual abuses and so far I have seen are related to close relative and early childhood and in Oprah case is the same and she is known for that. This particular incidence/ongoing trauma was also be part of her later on successful career life.

44336

Cypocryphy
12-14-2013, 03:38 PM
Under this method, did Brady say what kind of aspects should be used? Is she just using Ptolemaic aspects or is she using all of those within the 12th harmonic?

poyi
12-14-2013, 03:43 PM
Under this method, did Brady say what kind of aspects should be used? Is she just using Ptolemaic aspects or is she using all of those within the 12th harmonic?

Using ONLY the Ptolemaic aspect since the method is Medieval which is why she also only uses Whole Sign Housing only in this system. In the CD tutorial she had mentioned many times, Medieval focused only on mundane power and status. So for those who are successful in alternative areas will have more detriment and falls planets in their chart in powerful combinations that can also be manifested in alternative success but not according to the mundane standards.

poyi
12-14-2013, 04:16 PM
Looking at Oprah's chart. North Node partile Chiron in her 2nd house of Place of Acquiring is very interesting. She often talks about trauma and she also heals. The nature of her program is emotionally intense and regenerative at the same time. Chiron is sextile Mars which is the natal house of the 11th sign from POF Capricorn, Mars is the final dispositor of Saturn. Is a bit of a risky and experimental to use of both modern asteroids and medieval method. But worth observing in other charts to see if this show consistency.

In the same CD, in the earlier session she has the other method to analyze the Passion of the Chart, what a person truly wanted to do in life but often most of us are not earning money from what we feel passionate about so she also talked about it.

Profession and Money in the Natal Chart, by Bernadette Brady. You can buy it from http://www.astrologos.co.uk/astrology-shop/studyshops/ they do have special every now and then. Astrolog Kits some are now half prices. I recommend The Node Kit. The House kit is interesting but not as good. I ordered the Planets and Aspects Kit as my own Christmas gift. The Student kits are great for new beginner for astrology.

poyi
12-14-2013, 06:08 PM
I am siting from Brady's tutorial:

It is the Roman, Firmicus Maternus, with his culture’s eye for trading and capitalism, in what is now thought to be the last classical work, The Mathesis, (pp 136) who has left us with what I consider is the most reliable method for looking at a chart’s potential to have, generate, or even lose wealth.

Therefore observe who is the ruler of the sign and of the degree of the Part of Fortune, that is, in whose terms the Part is; also in what house each ruler is, whether on first or second angles, in favourable or dejected houses, in their exaltation or fall; whether each ruler is in aspect to the Part of Fortune and if they, on the angles, are in aspect to each other.

poyi
12-14-2013, 06:09 PM
I will need to do further study on this. I do think this system is very reliable that's why I share it here for those interested to learn further and can get a copy of this tutorial.

.... the ruler of the degree of the Moon (in a nocturnal chart) or of the Sun (in a diurnal chart) and see if this ruler is in aspect to the Part of Fortune. If one planet is found to be the ruler of all these degrees and is favourably located in signs in which he rejoices, or in his exaltation, or in his own house, this indicates a lucky chart. ….

But if there is not one ruler of the sign of the Part of Fortune and of its terms and of the terms of the Sun or the Moon, the one which has the greatest power should be the most important in the forecast….

….But if, of the stars we have mentioned, none is favourable located, the native will be oppressed by ill fortune to the end of his life.