Sun / Pluto Parts

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Hey guys.

About time for another parts proposal!!! Here we will be dealing with the parts involving asc, sun and pluto.

Here are the specific parts and how they have been listed so far:

Asc. + Pluto - Sun: Organization*, Gavel[?], Miracles
Asc. + Sun - Pluto: Interaction

Very vague titles for both. ('cept maybe organization though i'm not quite convinced of that title.. and ptv suggests that title being more appropriate for pluto-saturn)

So.... after thinking on it a bit.... I'm pretty sure that i'm "headed in the right direction" but still need to settle on a clear, distinct title. Maybe you guys could help me to hone it in by looking up your parts and offering your viewpoint on the matter.

Asc + Pluto - Sun: Confrontation with the Ego/ Display of will power/ Ego Drive

Asc + Sun - Pluto: Loss of the Ego / Submission of Will power

As you can see there is a developing theme but i'm still working on finding a title... poignant.. enough, especially for the sun-pluto one...

Thoughts? Much appreciated :biggrin:
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
And here are Yeshua & my parts... maybe those of you who know Him/me well enough can get some insight from them..

I really think that "Ego" is more appropriate for these... but maybe "Will Power" could fit better for others.... they are somewhat interchangeable.... let me know what you think:

(parts taken from Dane Rudhyar's "An Astrological Mandala")

Yeshua's Asc + Pluto - sun: Pisces 19.50

"A TABLE SET FOR AN EVENING MEAL.
KEYNOTE: An indication that in the end and at the appointed time the individual's needs will be met among those to whom he is linked by a spiritual (or biological) web of energies.
The significant element in this scene is not only the meal, but the fact that it is an "evening" meal. To use traditional symbolism, after a long chain of personal existences the Soul returns to its spiritual home at the close of the day-of-manifestation. There it finds that which renews and amply sustains; the happiness of the "beyond of existence" is experienced – if all has gone well.
This last symbol of the seventieth five-fold sequence promises a satisfying or fulfilling end to whatever one has been undertaking. As the life closes, the Soul-consciousness finds NOURISHMENT in the harvest of whatever, during the whole life, has been relevant to the archetypal purpose and destiny of the Soul – one of the myriad of aspects of the divine creative word which began the cycle."

Yesh's Asc + Sun - pluto: Aries 11.37

"A TRIANGULARLY SHAPED FLIGHT OF WILD GEESE.
KEYNOTE: An idealistic reliance upon a mental image of universal order.
The wild goose is the mystical bird, hamsa, of Hindu tradition. This word, which has recurred in various cultures (the Hansa League of Germanic cities in the late Middle Ages, and El Hanza, the founder of the occult Brotherhood of the Druzes in Lebanon, during the era of the Crusades), has always had at least an undertone of integration at an expansionistic level, spiritual or economic. The Hindu hamsa was the symbol of man's transcendent soul. What previous interpretations of this Sabian symbol have failed to grasp is that the flight of geese presents not only a remarkably geometrical V-shape moving through the sky, but also that this flight is seasonal and therefore attuned to planetary rhythms. Thus, it symbolizes cosmic order, in contrast with the social-political order within a nation which is represented by its ruler. It is order made visual on the background of the clear sky. It is a "celestial" type of order, even though it is earth-born birds
which reveal it by their ability to keep their flight structured. The symbol therefore refers to the Soul-consciousness as visualized by the heaven-oriented mind. Yet this soul-consciousness can be called transcendent because it has not yet become "incarnated."
Because this is a second stage in the third five-fold sequence begun with Phase 11, we have to consider what it pictures in contrast to the preceding symbol. A basic dualism of consciousness is thus suggested. We see arising a potential conflict between cosmic and social principles of order. The principle of COSMIC ORDER polarizes the all-too-human reliance on the social concept of law and order. "

My Asc + Pluto - Sun: Scorpio 22.31

"A RABBIT METAMORPHOSES INTO A NATURE SPIRIT.
KEYNOTE: The raising of animal drives to a higher level.
The rabbit is traditionally a symbol of an overabundance of progeny, thus of a great stress on procreative and sexual processes. "Nature spirits," on the other hand, represent the higher aspect of life energies, as they are said to guide those normally invisible forces controlling the growth of all living organisms, particularly in the vegetable kingdom. Thus the symbol refers to the transmutation of the generative power into a more ethereal and subtle form of potency.
This is the third symbol in the forty-seventh sequence. It brings a new dimension to the preceding two. Whether it is the sexual desire for a progeny, or aggressiveness, the instinctual urge can be raised to a new level. The course can become subtle through a process of TRANSUBSTANTIATION"

My Asc + Sun - Pluto: Libra 9.47

"HAVING PASSED SAFELY THROUGH NARROW RAPIDS, A CANOE REACHES CALM WATERS.
KEYNOTE: The self-control and poise necessary to reach a steady state of inner stability.
This symbol hardly needs to be commented upon. It could be related to the fifth symbol of the preceding five-fold sequence referring to guru-chela relationship at the actional level. Here we are dealing essentially with the emotional life and its crises. At the next – mental and individual – level, the concluding symbol will suggest the perfect and smooth working of the intellect ruled by logic and simplicity of means.
This is the fifth stage of the thirty-eighth sequence; it concludes what was begun at the first stage. The inner "revelation" which brought about dramatic confrontations can now be meditated upon as it is reflected on the calm waters of the mind. As a Keyword one may use the term RELIEF. "
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
hmmm.....

For a simplified version:

Asc + Pluto - Sun: Ego Drive, Ego Impulse, Will Power (?)
Asc + Sun - Pluto: Discipline, Self Control

Let's look at Barack Obama's Parts:

(ibid)

Asc + Pluto - Sun: Pisces 12.29

" AN ANCIENT SWORD, USED IN MANY BATTLES, IS DISPLAYED IN A MUSEUM.
KEYNOTE: Through the effectual use of his will a consecrated man can become a symbol of courage for all those who follow in his footsteps.
Will power is the ultimate spiritual weapon, and its undeviating use is the certification of individual worth. Wherever found, this symbol emphasizes the imperative need to make use of the will in meeting the basic challenges of the inner life as well as outer adversaries.
With this third symbol of the sixty-ninth sequence we see singled out and strongly emphasized the one power in man which is an assurance of victory in the contests generated by social (or occult) processes in which he has become an active part. The individual must use that WILL POWER, yet it is not really his own once he operates at a spiritual level. It is God's will operating through his mind which focuses its thrusts. It is, occultly speaking, the power of the Brotherhood — the energy of the Whole operating through the one-pointed individual who has made this Whole aware of the need for its use in a particular situation. "

Asc + Sun - Pluto: Capricorn 23.37

"
A WOMAN ENTERING A CONVENT.
KEYNOTE: Total commitment to a transcendent goal.
A convent is a place made available by a community which believes in the possibility of reaching a world-transcending state of consciousness. It is made available to individuals who may be variously motivated. To some it is an escape from the intolerable pressures of family and society; to others it represents the possibility of pursuing in peace a spiritual ideal to which the whole being aspires and is totally dedicated. The important point, in this phase of the cyclic process, is that the existence of a convent expresses another aspect of the relationship between the society (its religion and culture) and the individual. In the preceding symbol society rewarded the individual for a noble performance in its service; here society accepts the fact that beyond its daily normal patterns of behavior and commitments, another way of life exists which, in a higher sense, also has social value. In the old Hindu society dominated by a rigid caste system, the ideal embodied in the sannyasi — the wandering holy man or yogi meditating in a forest or a cave, who had entirely given up all that caste implied — was seen to be the very culmination of the social process.
In this fourth stage symbol we see the paradoxical nature of the social process operating more strongly than ever. This derives from the fact that man's nature contains in seed the possibility of overcoming and transcending itself in acts of complete denials and of surrender to a "higher" Law or quality of being. All spiritual techniques are indeed paradoxical. Rigid discipline conditions pure inner freedom. The final goal is the attainment of TRANSCENDENT SECURITY. "

uhh.... hmm... :wink:
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
So far looking real good here P.V.
Good approach and establishment of theory and demonstrations to support it too!

Since the formula Asc. + :pluto: - :venus: = Part of Libido and to which we've pretty much given total approval of through demonstrations...the formula of Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: must equal something as of the same potential manifested as to what a Part of Libido is compared to the Part of Love & Appreciation as to what the Part of Fulfillment & {or} Obligation have to the Part of Commerce [as identified by Ursula Lewis. of whom gave 29 Parts and their formulae in one of her books that has yet to let me down... but I'm not saying they are all infallible as to being identified correctly.] or the Part of Passion by some others.
As Asc. + :mars: - :venus: = Part of Fulfillment & {or} Obligation and the formula Asc. + :mars: - :sun: = Part of Commerce , then I feel that by the substitution of Mars' higher octave Pluto for Mars' in those equations creates the same kind of relative relationship as to what Pluto minus the Sun or Pluto minus Venus has.

My Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: = 21* :aquarius: 43' 55"
My Asc. + :sun: - :pluto: = 12* :leo: 36' 49"
[how interesting...as I have never noticed before...opposite signs and the degrees reversed ...at least the whole degree is ... r.e. 12 and 21. just a coincidence, I know, but very interesting to my numerological wired mind.]

So the 22nd degree of Aquarius by Dane Rudhyar's book "An Astrological Mandala" is:

"A RUG IS PLACED ON THE FLOOR OF A NURSERY TO ALLOW CHILDREN TO PLAY IN COMFORT AND WARMTH.

KEYNOTE: The warmth of understanding which comes to those who, early in life, are open to new possibilities.


Man is never left without assistance when eagerly seeking to grow emotionally and spiritually. Even if he does not consciously realize the intent and value of what sustains his self-development and cushions the shocks which life provides his growth in understanding, still the assistance is there. He may think: No one understands me. But the understanding is there if he does not egotistically take for granted that life and society owe him everything.

This second stage symbol contrasts the kindness inherent in so many of life's situations with the tragic feeling of disillusionment represented by the first stage symbol. Through a warm {...and Rudhyar's Keyword summation is... ptv} APPRECIATION of basic opportunities and even small comforts, we can safely and happily grow into personal maturity."

the 13th degree of Leo is: [ibid.]

"AN OLD SEA CAPTAIN ROCKING HIMSELF ON THE PORCH OF HIS COTTAGE.

KEYNOTE: The quieted mind's recollections of crises and joys long past.

The sea captain has steered the ship of his ego-consciousness through seas and storms, maintaining the integrity of his individual selfhood while in close contact with the collective Unconscious. Now retired, he may try to distill wisdom from his many experiences and from his victories over elemental forces. The 'swing' of the child-consciousness has now become a 'rocking chair' from which one can contemplate past as well as present scenes, gently moving as waves roll over the shore. Peace at last.

At this third stage we find the consciousness of old age, after having witnessed the spontaneous play of children close to protective nature (Leo 11°) and the fashionable social parties of escaping adults (Leo 12°); three phases of mental development. Keyword: QUIET RECOLLECTION."


...hmmmmm?

Well, I can see the one for Aquarius 22* being of a reason for my ego to be driven in such a way ... as I don't "egotistically feel that the world owes me anything...at least not in a long, long time... I'm doing for the kids. It is I that owes the world something. ...or at least wish to give to the world something.

...as to the one for Leo... at the moment I see it as the reverse engineering of my life that Ravenscroft said that one, such as myself, must do in order to understand their life and what the purpose of it has been all along... and that does require subduing the ego...on my part... I have come to a point of being upset, if not somewhat just short of being enraged, at times when thinking about how some things went down in my life just so as to ensure that I would arrive where I did when I did with what I had.


mad skills, girl...:wink:
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
I know that it will mean little to anyone else but you and a few others Phoenix V. but I thought that I'd calculate the same Parts for my natal compositie with the "Yeshu'a" chart and what came up I see as in agreement with your proposal.

[One does have to understand that the symbolism for any Part is that of the sense of, that of, the highest Spiritual purpose and achievement. The Cosmos/Creator doesn't futch around... nothing halfway would ever be indicated.]

For the Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: it is derived to be at 05* :pisces: 46' 46"
For the Asc. + :sun: - :pluto: it comes to 12* :gemini: 06' 54"

the 6th degree of Pisces and the 13th degree of Gemini.

6* PISCES [ibid.]
"A PARADE OF ARMY OFFICERS IN FULL DRESS.

KEYNOTE: The dedication of human beings to the service of their community, and the assurance that it will be emotionally sustained by the people at large.

Here we see at work the emotion-rousing appeal of social activities which demand the surrendering by the individual of his personal way of life, his opinions and his comfort. The socializing process is pictured in all its intensity but what is implied even more is the support that the socialized person can expect from the collectivity if he is ready to act and to sacrifice himself for the nation or the group.

This is the first symbol of the sixty-eighth series. It allegorizes the power generated by a totally accepted and enforced collective discipline, and the exaltation and mass response which he who has achieved this self-surrender to a social tradition can expect in return.
The Keyword is GROUP-RESPONSIBILITY."


13* GEMINI [ibid.]
"A FAMOUS PIANIST GIVING A CONCERT PERFORMANCE.

KEYNOTE: Individual fulfillment in the performing of a social function to which some prestige is attached.


Having entered upon the path of individualized experience that brings him in touch with broader or higher realms of superpersonal inspiration, the individual person is able to become himself a source of inspiration, an agent for Man and the formative Powers guiding human evolution. His role is to mobilize emotions, to present to others an image of what for most people is beyond their mediocre and lukewarm responses to the challenge of becoming 'more-than-man' — to experience more intensely and to see farther. This is the role of the true and ideal 'virtuoso' (vir meaning strength, manliness; thus 'virtue') and, in a far-reaching sense, of the Avatar whose example fascinates human beings, leading them to leave behind their past and to venture forth into new realms of experience.

At this third stage we see the meanings of the two preceding symbols, synthesized. One moves into new realms and successfully challenges the fears, the insecurity and the lack of self-confidence of the past in oneself —- all negative attitudes which, while conditioned by the social environment, have become engraved upon the unconscious. Having achieved this liberation, one can bring to the environment the power generated by self-discipline, skill and self-confidence. One has become an at least potential SOURCE OF INSPIRATION. "

Yes, I can see it here in the latter that when I work in unison with Yeshu'a's cause... literally for His cause as it is to his service that I have been presently assigned [maybe, I was all along... but I don't know that and certainly wasn't cognizant of any association prior to just these last 8 or 9 years.] that when appearing in any such light/role as like that of a concert pianist in performing and demonstrating my best that the ego has no part in the affair..or that it shouldn't. Whether I do act accordingly is entirely up to my own effort and resolve... or acquiescence, might be a better way of saying it as the word "resolve" does connotate the involvement of ego for me and I believe most everyone else.

The former symbol I can see somewhat where-in a certain 'Spiritual egotism' is called for.[if that term makes sense to anyone....? by which, I mean that I see the term as meaning a certain amount of assuredness in action and speech that comes from a resolve to serve God.]
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
The former symbol I can see somewhat where-in a certain 'Spiritual egotism' is called for.[if that term makes sense to anyone....? by which, I mean that I see the term as meaning a certain amount of assuredness in action and speech that comes from a resolve to serve God.]

Ptv, I greatly appreciate your time spent on this thread in spite of your busy schedule. :happy:

In response to the quote, it does seem to make much sense with what you were saying regarding owing the world, doing it for the kids, etc.

For your composite pluto-sun symbol, having the “faith” of receptivity by others is needed to go out on a limb… a drive to reach people….

I am luckily one of those kids that was receptive. :wink: (maybe that is along the lines of what “open to love’s urgings” means for me.. if you know what I‘m talkin bout…)

When we look at Yeshua’s Asc + Pluto-Sun, it really does have to do with necessity. It deals with personal NEEDS in order to “get the job done”….

So in that sense, the composite sun-pluto would seem more about “necessary ego drives” , as this is about your spiritual quest with Him… a quest which would limit the ego only to what is necessary for completion… (why would we have been given one if it wasn't needed at all.....?)

here are mine:

Comp w Y Asc + Pluto - Sun: Cancer 21.10

A YOUNG WOMAN AWAITING A SAILBOAT.
KEYNOTE: The longing for transcendent happiness in the soul opened to great dreams.


Here the symbol pictures the imaginative youthful person who basically cannot be satisfied with what his or her ordinary social environment offers, and who instead is longing for the unknown visitation of which he or she has dreamed. From the unconscious beyond, the concretization of a spiritual image – spiritual because impelled by the "wind" (pneuma, spirit) – is hoped for and expected. The Beloved may come – not in a glittering opera house, but in the silence of the inner sea of consciousness.

At this second stage of this five-fold sequence the contrast with the first is strongly marked. Will the great dream become concrete? Will the emotion ready to well up in response to the Advent have its chance? Will the EXPECTANCY of the Eternal Feminine be rewarded with reality?”

Ahhh… owwie…:pinched::innocent:... it apparently fits… and it does seem necessary for my “quest”…

Comp w Y Asc + Sun - Pluto: Cap 10.42

A LARGE GROUP OF PHEASANT ON A PRIVATE ESTATE.
KEYNOTE: The refinement and propagation of aristocratic values by means of which man participates in the evolution of life toward ever more per feet forms of existence.


All life implies a hierarchy of values, from the crude to the subtle, from the rough and the ugly to the beautiful. By the use of biological techniques, man is able to develop new species, or at least to greatly improve those found in the wild. This ability is at the root of all cultural processes. Wilderness is turned into the gardens of an aristocracy having the leisure, taste and money to produce or encourage the creation of beautiful forms. This is what the social process produces in its highest aspect. The first symbol of the fifty-seventh five-fold sequence shows us how man can cooperate with nature in creating beauty and elegance by capitalizing on skill and opportunity. The Keyword is ARISTOCRACY.”
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
So far looking real good here P.V.
Good approach and establishment of theory and demonstrations to support it too!

Since the formula Asc. + :pluto: - :venus: = Part of Libido and to which we've pretty much given total approval of through demonstrations...the formula of Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: must equal something as of the same potential manifested as to what a Part of Libido is compared to the Part of Love & Appreciation as to what the Part of Fulfillment & {or} Obligation have to the Part of Commerce [as identified by Ursula Lewis. of whom gave 29 Parts and their formulae in one of her books that has yet to let me down... but I'm not saying they are all infallible as to being identified correctly.] or the Part of Passion by some others.
As Asc. + :mars: - :venus: = Part of Fulfillment & {or} Obligation and the formula Asc. + :mars: - :sun: = Part of Commerce , then I feel that by the substitution of Mars' higher octave Pluto for Mars' in those equations creates the same kind of relative relationship as to what Pluto minus the Sun or Pluto minus Venus has....
mad skills, girl...:wink:

Gracias :cool:

well.. since this thread DOES deal with egos… maybe it’s not too out of place to say,…

I truly think that between the two of us, (and any other minds that might want to help..) we can probably get the majority of the parts listed (relatively) accurately… ;)

and pluto is a good place to start as it is something we both have strong in our charts…

I’ve been thinking about pluto/merc… as what we have come up with is slightly different in theme...

HOWEVER… it is very possible… that pluto (or possibly ALL) reverse parts could have not only a reverse meaning… but ALSO an inner/outer aspect to them.. I admit this is a little out there but just hear me out...

for sun/pluto:

pluto-sun: ego drive
sun-pluto: discipline
+
pluto-sun: what influences/transforms our ego
sun-pluto: how our discipline influences/transforms others…

so running with that theme with what we have come up with for mercury…

pluto-merc: shallow/destructive… (probably something more appropriate..?) …thinking
merc-pluto: transformed thinking… (again needs to be honed still..)
+
pluto-merc: how our thinking is influenced/transformed
merc-pluto: how our thinking influences/transforms others

….. I think it’s worth giving a bit more thought to…. the nature of yin/yang IS inner/outer…. what we put in we always give out in some form or fashion…
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Giving it a little more thought here this evening....
Taking...

Yeshua's Asc + Pluto - sun: Pisces 19.50
[ibid.]

"A TABLE SET FOR AN EVENING MEAL.

KEYNOTE: An indication that in the end and at the appointed time the individual's needs will be met among those to whom he is linked by a spiritual (or biological) web of energies.

The significant element in this scene is not only the meal, but the fact that it is an 'evening' meal. To use traditional symbolism, after a long chain of personal existences the Soul returns to its spiritual home at the close of the day-of-manifestation. There it finds that which renews and amply sustains; the happiness of the 'beyond of existence' is experienced – if all has gone well.

This last symbol of the seventieth five-fold sequence promises a satisfying or fulfilling end to whatever one has been undertaking. As the life closes, the Soul-consciousness finds NOURISHMENT in the harvest of whatever, during the whole life, has been relevant to the archetypal purpose and destiny of the Soul – one of the myriad of aspects of the divine creative word which began the cycle."

...and then thinking of the two notable and renowned acts by the Man from Nazareth; The multiplying of the loaves and fish. The transforming water to wine. [as the Sabian Symbol for this Part of His does have the symbology of "NOURISHMENT", I thought along those lines here... as they should obviously then provide the most clear cases from which to discern... does that make sense? It does to me.., as I have been noting for a little while how this specific kind of example of analogy keeps popping up with yours, mine and Princess V.'s Parts and of course those from the "proposed as genuine" Yeshu'a natal chart.*]
I would say those were both spiritual-ego driven acts derived from a desire to provide rather than remain passive about the situations and hope for the Cosmos to provide via some 'miracle'.
Instead He decided to provide the miracle him self.

does Willful-Desire and Willful-Passive kind of fit these two Parts then?
[the wording-terminology is too awkward, in my opinion, but I seem to see it gelling towards something like that.]


* Just like the Part of Fortune for the USA natal chart [the zero hour, july 4th, 1776 Philadelphia chart] is @ 25* :scorpio: 41' and it's Sabian Symbol [ibid.] "AMERICAN INDIANS MAKING CAMP AFTER MOVING INTO A NEW TERRITORY.
KEYNOTE: The ability to adjust swiftly to a new situation by tuning in to its requirements." it is just so uncannily apropo!
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
btw...for the record.
Edgar Cayce's comment on the act of transforming the water to wine is that it was during a wedding celebration and that they ran out of wine. The party had to continue and Yeshu'a did so provide...not to 'show off' but because they were out of wine!
Mazel Tov!

Edgar said that He and the boys did like a good party. [to sing, play music, have some laughs. From Edgar's account, the Man from Naz. was somewhat of a passionate fellow.]
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
In need of some sleep so I will respond more later but I have been thinking about your posts..

(thanks for sharing cayce's take on the man, very heartwarming..)

one more thing to consider in that context is the events surrounding "The last supper".... again He did display needs that had to be fulfilled amongst His "spiritual web"

so yes even though proclamations made during "the last supper" dealt in part with actions of others, it did have to do with a personal display of will..

still pondering on those exact titles you suggested...
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
In need of some sleep so I will respond more later but I have been thinking about your posts..

(thanks for sharing cayce's take on the man, very heartwarming..)

one more thing to consider in that context is the events surrounding "The last supper".... again He did display needs that had to be fulfilled amongst His "spiritual web"

so yes even though proclamations made during "the last supper" dealt in part with actions of others, it did have to do with a personal display of will..

still pondering on those exact titles you suggested...

OY! :pinched:
I hadn't even thought about the Last Supper...Good Point!
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Check this out.
The location of the Part derived from the USA natal chart [the zero hour chart, 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Peen. chart] from what the formula Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: produces, is at 06* :scorpio: 25' 01".
For what the part that uses the formula Asc. + :sun: - :pluto: it is at 06* :libra: 34' 05"

On this coming December 19th in the USA, the No. Node will conj. the Part in Scorpio.

Mars will be within one degree orb of conj. to the Part in Libra, making an exact conj less than 48 hours later.

The Sun will be conj. the USA natal Part of Distress, the Part is at 27* :sagittarius: 35' 43"

The Moon during the 19th of December will traverse from around the 19th degree of Cancer to the 1st degree of Leo, and will conj. during the course of that day the USA Part of Damage aka Part of Misunderstanding {Asc. + :neptune: - :mars: } at 23* :cancer: 00' 46"
...and also the Part of Tragedy/Fatality {Asc. + :saturn: - :sun: } located at 23* :cancer: 38' 09"
...and the Part of Death (medieval) {Cusp 8th house + :saturn: - :moon: } which is at 24* :cancer: 28'

Uranus, in retrograde, will be within a degree of orb conj. to the USA Part of Transformation {Asc. + :uranus: - :mars: } which is located at 09* :aries: 29' 25" starting on this October 4th, it will exactly conj. it on the 30th of October, it will go direct at 08* :aries: 35' on December 17th and off to a final conj. on Feb. 1st, 2014.

Pluto, on December 19th, will still be within one degree orb of conj. to the Part of Repression, which is at 08* :capricorn: 42' 41" {it got within one degree of orb in retrograde on last July 25th, Pluto went direct last Friday the 20th of Sept. ...and was conj. on last December 14th, 2012, the same day as the shootings at Sandy Hook...which also coincided with the No. Node being conj. the USA natal Part of Fortune at 25* :scorpio: 40' 42".Also of note, Venus was conj. the Part of Delusion in the 28th of Scorpio and the Part of Strategy in the 29th of Scorpio, Mars conj. the Part of Disappointment in the 21st of Capricorn, on the same day as the shooting. Chiron was conj. the USA natal Part of Omens & Signs, that day, in the 6th of Pisces. Saturn had been conj the, Asc. + Pluto - Sun, Part in Scorpio on Nov. 29th, 2012, and was within one degree orb of conj until Dec. 9th, 2012}
 

princess valhalla

Well-known member
Let's see.

asc + sun - pluto = Leo 0.18

[ibid.]

Leo 1
"PHASE 121 (LEO 1°): BLOOD RUSHES TO A MAN’S HEAD AS HIS VITAL ENERGIES ARE MOBILIZED UNDER THE SPUR OF AMBITION.
KEYNOTE: An irruption of bio-psychic energies into the ego-controlled field of consciousness.
The occult tradition speaks of three kinds of “Fire”: Electric fire, Solar Fire and Fire by friction. The three Fire signs of the zodiac correspond to these. Aries refers to the ‘descent’ of the spiritual energy of the Creative Word. In its material aspect we know this energy as electricity, and without electrical energy no life processes could exist. Leo represents Solar Fire, the energy which is released from an integrated person, either through spontaneous radiations of apparently nuclear forms of energy, or, at the truly human and conscious level (and also superhuman in more transcendent realms), through conscious emanations (e-mana-tions, from manas meaning ‘mind’ in Sanskrit. Sagittarius is related to the fire by friction, because all social processes are based on interpersonal relations, which imply polarization and often conflict.
The key symbol for Leo depicts a rising of energy from the heart to the head, a ‘mentalization’ process. However, this process is a potentially dangerous one. Thus the original wording of the symbolic scene seen by the clairvoyant referred to ‘a case of apoplexy’ – just as a person standing with their head uncovered for a long time in tropical regions could get sunstroke. The sun can destroy as well as vivify. Without it’s symbolical mate, water, it produces deserts on earth. The realization of atman, the spiritual self, the existence of a formed and steady ego – provided the ego can become a lens of pure crystal focusing the all-pervasive cosmic light of the Brahman without introducing the shadows of pride possessiveness and showmanship. But this ‘provided’ raises a very large question. The transmutation of ‘life’ into ‘mind’ is a difficult process.
This is the first stage of the twenty-fifth five-fold sequence of symbols which opens the ninth Scene. The keynote of ‘Combustion’ for the entire series of fifteen phases hardly needs interpretation. In a general sense the key word for this first degree of the sign Leo could be CONFLAGRATION. The energies of the biological drives as they irrupt, more or less forcefully, into the field of consciousness."


asc + pluto - sun = Pisces 14.18

[ibid.]
Pisces 15
"PHASE 345 (PISCES 15°): AN OFFICER INSTRUCTING HIS MEN BEFORE A SIMULATED ASSAULT UNDER A BARRAGE OF LIVE SHELLS.
KEYNOTE: The need for thorough rehearsing before any complex and inherently dangerous social ritual in which power is used or evoked.
In this fifth symbol of a series dealing with the confrontation with superpersonal group or occult power we see a picture which once again synthesizes what the four preceding symbols have implied, rather than stated. In social life, as well as occultism, conflict is always to be expected; one must prepare for it. At the close of the great cycle — in the zodiac, the sign Pisces — a deep-seated struggle is inevitable at least to some extent. It can be a struggle against the ghosts of the unfulfilled past, the "unlived life," or a confrontation with accumulated and often-eluded karma. Indeed, Pisces refers to a period in the year during which many generals and admirals have been born. The rules of the game, at least in traditional forms of warfare, can be known. One may have to rehearse the dangerous play, just as our astronauts endlessly rehearsed every step in the moon-landings. Individual rashness cannot be tolerated. Even a deliberate sacrifice must
play a well-conceived part — like the sacrifice of an important piece in a game of chess.
This is the last symbol in Scene Twenty-three. The entire scene dealt in various ways with the process of integration of the individual into a social Whole, a community, an occult Brotherhood. A concluding Keyword could be VALORIZATION. The concept of group-value dominates the entire scene."
 

princess valhalla

Well-known member
Composite with Yeshua

asc + sun - pluto = Sagittarius 5.56

Sag 6

[ibid.]
"SECOND LEVEL: EMOTIONAL/CULTURAL
PHASE 246 (SAGITTARIUS 6°): A GAME OF CRICKET.
KEYNOTE: The development of skill in group-situations testing collective goals.
Any society is built on the interplay between groups of people, each group united by an at least temporary aim. The individual person within the group is assigned a particular role in the play; and definite rules have to be obeyed. The game teaches not only personal skill, but fairness and cooperation. Where this symbol is found, the value of making individual-will or ego-will subservient to collective cultural patterns is emphasized. Several symbols belonging to Scene Seventeen (Sagittarius) relate to games or group rituals, because these are "ab-stracted" from everyday social behavior and used as educative means to develop group-consciousness and an individual sense- of responsibility to the group.
This is the first symbol of the fiftieth five-fold sequence. It refers to the importance of developing GROUP SOLIDARITY."

asc + pluto - sun = Pisces 17.6

Pisces 18

[ibid.]
"PHASE 348 (PISCES 18°): IN A GIGANTIC TENT, VILLAGERS WITNESS A SPECTACULAR PERFORMANCE.
KEYNOTE: The collective appeal of a well-staged and exciting display of skill and/or oratory.
At first, Marc Jones interpreted the "gigantic tent" as the locale for a revivalist's meeting; later he suggested a circus tent instead. In a sense, the basic meaning is the same whether it is the traditional performance of skilled clowns, acrobats or animal trainers, or that of a religious fundamentalist dramatizing an old religious imagery, what takes place is the use of personal achievement and conviction to bring a crowd to a state of enthusiasm sufficient to make it forget its boredom with everyday routine or its familiar sins of commission or omission.
At this third stage of the seventieth five-fold sequence, the individual person and the collectivity are brought together in a significant performance which subtly strengthens the communal spirit directly or indirectly. The implication of the symbol, whenever it is found operating, is that the time has come for the individual to dare to present himself and his works to his community for applause, or for the purpose of attracting a following. What is suggested is PUBLIC SELF-DRAMATIZATION. "
 

princess valhalla

Well-known member

Yesh's Asc + Sun - pluto: Aries 11.37


"A TRIANGULARLY SHAPED FLIGHT OF WILD GEESE.
KEYNOTE: An idealistic reliance upon a mental image of universal order.
The wild goose is the mystical bird, hamsa, of Hindu tradition. This word, which has recurred in various cultures (the Hansa League of Germanic cities in the late Middle Ages, and El Hanza, the founder of the occult Brotherhood of the Druzes in Lebanon, during the era of the Crusades), has always had at least an undertone of integration at an expansionistic level, spiritual or economic. The Hindu hamsa was the symbol of man's transcendent soul. What previous interpretations of this Sabian symbol have failed to grasp is that the flight of geese presents not only a remarkably geometrical V-shape moving through the sky, but also that this flight is seasonal and therefore attuned to planetary rhythms. Thus, it symbolizes cosmic order, in contrast with the social-political order within a nation which is represented by its ruler. It is order made visual on the background of the clear sky. It is a "celestial" type of order, even though it is earth-born birds
which reveal it by their ability to keep their flight structured. The symbol therefore refers to the Soul-consciousness as visualized by the heaven-oriented mind. Yet this soul-consciousness can be called transcendent because it has not yet become "incarnated."
Because this is a second stage in the third five-fold sequence begun with Phase 11, we have to consider what it pictures in contrast to the preceding symbol. A basic dualism of consciousness is thus suggested. We see arising a potential conflict between cosmic and social principles of order. The principle of COSMIC ORDER polarizes the all-too-human reliance on the social concept of law and order. "

My Asc + Pluto - Sun: Scorpio 22.31

"A RABBIT METAMORPHOSES INTO A NATURE SPIRIT.
KEYNOTE: The raising of animal drives to a higher level.
The rabbit is traditionally a symbol of an overabundance of progeny, thus of a great stress on procreative and sexual processes. "Nature spirits," on the other hand, represent the higher aspect of life energies, as they are said to guide those normally invisible forces controlling the growth of all living organisms, particularly in the vegetable kingdom. Thus the symbol refers to the transmutation of the generative power into a more ethereal and subtle form of potency.
This is the third symbol in the forty-seventh sequence. It brings a new dimension to the preceding two. Whether it is the sexual desire for a progeny, or aggressiveness, the instinctual urge can be raised to a new level. The course can become subtle through a process of TRANSUBSTANTIATION"



My 12th house cusp is the Aries 11.40.

And my descendant is Scorpio 22.18.

:andy:
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
My 12th house cusp is the Aries 11.40.

And my descendant is Scorpio 22.18.

:andy:

:happy::biggrin:

What an awesome symbol for descendant! :p

What is your chinese zodiac? Mine happens to be rabbit lol.

Your parts are interesting because pluto-sun is more about controlled displays, and sun-pluto is more about eruptive displays…

so… it would seem to be that it is transformative for you to “let go” through the “irruption”… what do you think of these part, PV? Does the dynamic between outer ego desires/drive and inner will strength seem to be along the lines?

I think ptv’s “willful-desire” and “willful-passive” is right along the mark…. whereas one drives the will toward expression, the other is a latent source of power…

I'm going to look up the definitions of "ego" and "will"... maybe the clarification between the two can help here:

Quotes taken from freedictionary

Ego:
"1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality."

Will:

"1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.2. a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.

b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.

3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will."


Yes... I think these words correctly show the dynamic between the drive towards "self expression" and "self motivation" ... so maybe "ego drive" vs. "will power"
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Check this out.
The location of the Part derived from the USA natal chart [the zero hour chart, 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Peen. chart] from what the formula Asc. + :pluto: - :sun: produces, is at 06* :scorpio: 25' 01".
For what the part that uses the formula Asc. + :sun: - :pluto: it is at 06* :libra: 34' 05"

On this coming December 19th in the USA, the No. Node will conj. the Part in Scorpio.

Mars will be within one degree orb of conj. to the Part in Libra, making an exact conj less than 48 hours later.

The Sun will be conj. the USA natal Part of Distress, the Part is at 27* :sagittarius: 35' 43"

The Moon during the 19th of December will traverse from around the 19th degree of Cancer to the 1st degree of Leo, and will conj. during the course of that day the USA Part of Damage aka Part of Misunderstanding {Asc. + :neptune: - :mars: } at 23* :cancer: 00' 46"
...and also the Part of Tragedy/Fatality {Asc. + :saturn: - :sun: } located at 23* :cancer: 38' 09"
...and the Part of Death (medieval) {Cusp 8th house + :saturn: - :moon: } which is at 24* :cancer: 28'

Uranus, in retrograde, will be within a degree of orb conj. to the USA Part of Transformation {Asc. + :uranus: - :mars: } which is located at 09* :aries: 29' 25" starting on this October 4th, it will exactly conj. it on the 30th of October, it will go direct at 08* :aries: 35' on December 17th and off to a final conj. on Feb. 1st, 2014.

Pluto, on December 19th, will still be within one degree orb of conj. to the Part of Repression, which is at 08* :capricorn: 42' 41" {it got within one degree of orb in retrograde on last July 25th, Pluto went direct last Friday the 20th of Sept. ...and was conj. on last December 14th, 2012, the same day as the shootings at Sandy Hook...which also coincided with the No. Node being conj. the USA natal Part of Fortune at 25* :scorpio: 40' 42".Also of note, Venus was conj. the Part of Delusion in the 28th of Scorpio and the Part of Strategy in the 29th of Scorpio, Mars conj. the Part of Disappointment in the 21st of Capricorn, on the same day as the shooting. Chiron was conj. the USA natal Part of Omens & Signs, that day, in the 6th of Pisces. Saturn had been conj the, Asc. + Pluto - Sun, Part in Scorpio on Nov. 29th, 2012, and was within one degree orb of conj until Dec. 9th, 2012}

Very interesting, indeed.

Theres those number sevens again.

Here are the symbols (ibid)

Asc + Pluto - Sun:

DEEP-SEA DIVERS.
KEYNOTE: The will to explore the hidden depths of all experiences and to search for primordial causes.
This symbol essentially refers to depth psychology — a coming to terms with the collective Unconscious and its contents. This type of depth-plumbing adventure is basically different from the one symbolized by the gold rush, for it can take place within the individual and with no relation to social value. It refers symbolically to a quest for "under-standing" — i.e. for what lies under the surface waves of daily living. This quest may lead to great dangers. It demands a strong will and good breathing — i.e. a degree of spiritual strength. It usually challenges powers hidden in the depths of the unconscious.
The contrast between "deep-sea divers" and "men of the gold rush" is significant. It presents in an interesting manner the opposition between a first stage and second stage symbol in the five-fold sequence of cyclic phases. The inward quest opposes the outward search for the great social symbol, gold. It should lead to a DEPTH REALIZATION of the very roots of consciousness.

Asc + Sun - Pluto:

A WOMAN FEEDING CHICKENS AND PROTECTING THEM FROM THE HAWKS.
KEYNOTE: The need to face the antagonism of "powers of darkness" as one attempts to feed the mind of as yet helpless and frightened apprentices.
The most basic "Law" of our universe is that every release of new potentialities (or modes of energy) brings about a polarization of effects — that is, the new potentiality will be used both for construction and destruction. It will arouse individuals (or groups and nations) to take a series of steps which will lead some to greater success, others to deeper failure. Whoever makes possible this new release has to accept the karma of both the success and the failure. When Jesus showered his immense love upon lukewarm, self-centered individuals, it inevitably came to be turned into violent hatred when these soul-minds were unable to cope with its frightening intensity. Jesus had to accept spiritual responsibility for those who crucified him.
At this second stage we witness the contrast between the ideal situation envisioned clearly by the creative consciousness (first stage) and what it will be in actual operation; thus the forever-present struggle involved in making it possible for the future-oriented actualizers of an ideal to survive the attacks of tradition-worshiping minds that can only follow the lines of automatic response. The keynote is GUARDIANSHIP.

Yeah, i'm still liking the idea of ego -drive vs will power. ("ego" might get a bad wrap but it really is needed for expression in this physical world..)

Though it almost seems reversed in this case... hmmm...

it will be interesting to see what might happen on dec 19 :p
 

princess valhalla

Well-known member
:happy::biggrin:

What an awesome symbol for descendant! :p

What is your chinese zodiac? Mine happens to be rabbit lol.

Your parts are interesting because pluto-sun is more about controlled displays, and sun-pluto is more about eruptive displays…

so… it would seem to be that it is transformative for you to “let go” through the “irruption”… what do you think of these part, PV? Does the dynamic between outer ego desires/drive and inner will strength seem to be along the lines?

I think ptv’s “willful-desire” and “willful-passive” is right along the mark…. whereas one drives the will toward expression, the other is a latent source of power…

I'm going to look up the definitions of "ego" and "will"... maybe the clarification between the two can help here:

Quotes taken from freedictionary

Ego:
"1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality."

Will:

"1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.2. a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.

b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.

3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will."


Yes... I think these words correctly show the dynamic between the drive towards "self expression" and "self motivation" ... so maybe "ego drive" vs. "will power"

I am a sheep in Chinese astrology. Actually the rabbit and the sheep are supposed to be very compatible! :biggrin:

I'm actually kind of confused by these parts of mine. My Pluto and Sun aren't very strong in my natal chart.
The only aspects my Pluto makes is a wide square (7 degrees) to Venus and a sextile to Neptune, which is generational. Plus an inconjunct to my ascendant and a semi-sextile to Uranus. :annoyed: But it does conjunct the fixed star Spica which helps!
My sun doesn't fare much better either! I was born on the Winter Solstice. My Sun is in the last degree of Sag, in a pitted degree and in the eighth house. It semi-sextiles my Moon and Venus (Moon and Venus are conjunct.) It squares Saturn from the fifth, ick! I truly do not like this aspect at all! http://astrology.about.com/od/aspects/qt/Sun-Square-Saturn.htm It does however build character.
It conjuncts Neptune (in H8) which dissolves the ego very much. It has it's good points but too much dissolution of the ego isn't very good.
It bi-quintiles my ascendant and trines my North Node as well, which helps.

I guess for these reasons, I have a hard time grasping these proposed parts. No surprise with my Sun squaring Saturn and conjuncting Neptune. :andy:

My sabian symbols for my Pluto and Sun are:

Pluto = Libra 22
Sun= Sag 30

I do like your hypothesis though! Especially this, "HOWEVER… it is very possible… that pluto (or possibly ALL) reverse parts could have not only a reverse meaning… but ALSO an inner/outer aspect to them.. " I really do think you are on to something here! It makes a lot of sense actually! Pretty brilliant if I do say so myself! ;)
 
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