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eternalautumn
09-11-2013, 08:29 PM
I'd like to start a general discussion on these basic categories/qualities in astrology.

The Genders of the Planets

Saturn - Male
Jupiter - Male
Mars - Male
Sun - Male
Venus - Female
Mercury - ~
Moon - Female

*So, why isn't there a balance of masculine and feminine? Doesn't that bother anyone else? What can we conclude from that about ancient astrology, besides the well-known "inferior" view of females? Was this intended in the founding philosophy? If so, what does it really mean? Do we not see most everywhere else in astrology a balance of male and female, night and day, hot and cold, wet and dry, an equality of opposites, a unity in duality, if you will?

*Mercury has no gender, but assumes one based on it's oriental or occidental placement in a specific nativity, along with sign/sect placement. I prefer to think of it as hermaphroditic, or maybe even Third Gender.

What is your opinion of the genders of the planets?

The Genders and Sect of the Signs

[For convenience and brevity, here I'll list the gender and sect of the signs together, since they are synonymous.]

Aries - Male / Day
Taurus - Female / Night
Gemini - Male / Day
Cancer - Female / Night
Leo - Male / Day
Virgo - Female / Night
Libra - Male / Day
Scorpio - Female / Night
Sagittarius - Male / Day
Capricorn - Female / Night
Aquarius - Male / Day
Pisces - Female / Night

*Okay, this is an easy one. No comment.

What is your opinion of the genders and sect of the signs?

[I'm not aware of the individual houses having genders; are you?]

The Genders and Sect of the Quadrants

[For convenience and brevity, here I'll list the genders and sect of the quadrants together, since they are synonymous.]

First quadrant (Twelfth, Eleventh, and Tenth houses) - Male / Day
Second quadrant (Ninth, Eighth, and Seventh houses) - Female / Night
Third quadrant (Sixth, Fifth, and Fourth houses) - Male / Day
Fourth quadrant (Third, Second, and First houses) - Female / Night

*The First and Third quadrants are masculine and diurnal because there, the planets (by diurnal motion) move towards culmination, reaching their highest point in the South, and reaching their lowest point in the North (think solstices), which is more active (?). The Second and Fourth quadrants are feminine and nocturnal because there, the planets (by diurnal motion) move towards the horizon, rising up over the Eastern horizon, and down under the Western horizon (think equinoxes), which is more passive (?).

What is your opinion of the genders and sect of the quadrants?

The Sect of the Planets

Saturn - Day
Jupiter - Day
Mars - Night
Sun - Day
Venus - Night
Mercury - ~
Moon - Night

*I have no qualms with this arrangement! I do find it interesting, however, that in Indian astrology, Saturn is considered nocturnal and Venus diurnal.

*Mercury is of neither sect, but prefers one over the other based on it's oriental or occidental placement in a specific nativity, along with sign/sect placement. I prefer to think of it as being crepuscular, loving dawn and dusk, master of twilight!

What is your opinion of the sect of the planets?

[I'm not aware of the individual houses being of either sect; are you?]

[I'm not aware of the planets having modes; are you?]

The Modes of the Signs and Houses

[For convenience and brevity, here I'll list the mode of the signs and houses together, since they are synonymous. I will, however, equivocate Cancer with the First house rather than Aries, since Cancer rises in the the Thema Mundi.]

Cancer / First - Cardinal / Angular
Leo / Second - Fixed / Succedent
Virgo / Third - Mutable / Cadent
Libra / Fourth - Cardinal / Angular
Scorpio / Fifth - Fixed / Succedent
Sagittarius / Sixth - Mutable / Cadent
Capricorn / Seventh - Cardinal / Angular
Aquarius / Eighth - Fixed / Succedent
Pisces / Ninth - Mutable / Cadent
Aries / Tenth - Cardinal / Angular
Taurus / Eleventh - Fixed / Succedent
Gemini / Twelfth - Mutable / Cadent

*What does the symbolism of the travel of the planets via Zodiacal vs. diurnal motion mean for interpretation? What is the underlying philosophy there?

*In what ways are cardinal/fixed/mutable different from angular/fixed/succedent? In what way are cardinal and angular the same, etc.? What is the fundamental difference between a sign and a house, and in what ways are they similar? What does that mean for interpretation? What is the underlying philosophy?

What is your opinion of the modes of the signs and houses?

[I have no problem with using these so-called "astrological alphabets"; as long as you understand the fundamental differences between planets, signs, and houses, and restrain it to the ways in which they are actually synonymous, its a non-issue, at least in my eyes. Does anyone feel differently? Why?]

[I'm not aware of the quadrants having modes; are you?]

The Elements of the Planets

[I'm aware that there's quite a bit of variability here, and I welcome discussion on it! This list reflects the most logical arrangement I've found so far.]

Saturn - Earth (Cold/Dry)
Jupiter - Air (Hot/Wet)
Mars - Fire (Hot/Dry)
Sun - Fire (Hot/Dry)
Venus - Water (Cold/Wet)
Mercury - ~
Moon - Water (Cold/Wet)

*The diurnal planets are led by the Sun (fire, the most masculine element), king of day, followed by Jupiter (air, the second most masculine element), and then Saturn (earth, a feminine element, but less so than water), placed in the diurnal sect for temperance. The nocturnal planets are led by the Moon (water, the most feminine element), queen of night, followed by Venus (water, ...), and then Mars (fire, a masculine element), placed in the nocturnal sect for temperance.

*Mercury has no elemental quality, but takes on a temperament based on it's oriental or occidental placement in a specific nativity, along with sign/sect placement. Since Sun and Mars are of fire, and Moon and Venus are of water, (two pairs, perfectly balanced) leaving Saturn, which is of earth, and Jupiter, which is of air, I prefer to think of Mercury as being of both air and earth (the horizon?), a perfectly balanced, neutral planet, (which makes even more sense being that Mercury rules Gemini, an air sign, and Virgo, an earth sign) possessing all four qualities of hot, cold, wet, and dry, in equal measure (the fifth element?), and therefore more susceptible than others planets to influence of it's elemental quality from Zodiacal and diurnal motion.

*I'm not completely at ease with this arrangement. Something about it irks me, I'm just not quite sure what, exactly, that may be.

What is your opinion of the elements of the planets?

The Elements of the Signs

Aries - Fire
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Air
Cancer - Water
Leo - Fire
Virgo - Earth
Libra - Air
Scorpio - Water
Sagittarius - Fire
Capricorn - Earth
Aquarius - Air
Pisces - Water

*What does the contrast between the order of elements in the signs (Zodiacal motion) (fire, earth, air, water) and the order of elements by season/direction/time of day (diurnal motion) (air, fire, earth, water), mean for interpretation? What is the underlying philosophy?

What is your opinion of the elements of the signs?

[I'm not aware of the individual houses being of a certain element; are you? I do know of Morin's grouping of houses in trine, which could be synonymous in a way: The First, Fifth, and Ninth houses being of fire/air, the Tenth, Second, and Sixth houses being of earth/fire, the Seventh, Eleventh, and Third houses being of air/earth, and the Fourth, Eighth, and Twelfth houses being of water. Comments?]

[I'm not aware of the quadrants being of a certain element; are you?]

~~~

What does "gender" mean in astrology?
What does "sect" mean in astrology?
What does "mode" mean in astrology?
What does "element" mean in astrology?

In what ways are all these different qualities the same?

**The cross of the Ascendant/Descendant axis and Medium Coeli/Imum Coeli axis is worth more discussion. The hemispheres and quadrants hold a more important place in traditional astrology than is commonly thought, in my opinion. What is your opinion?

PS: Please bring any traditional sources that conflict with the lists I've given here up for discussion!

PPS: Do the lunar nodes have gender, sect, mode, and/or element? What about the ASC, DSC, MC, or IC? The lots/parts?

eternalautumn
09-11-2013, 10:56 PM
Can we relate any of these qualities to the aspects (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition)? We're already working with dexter vs sinister, applying vs separating, faster vs slower planet, etc...

What about direct, station, and retrograde? Could these correspond to modes of the planets?

What about heliacal rising and setting? What about the Mansions of the Moon?

66dragonfly66
09-12-2013, 12:23 AM
...
some part of me believes that our normal persynal gender (socialized, dayside sun) is to be identified with our part of fortune, but that our anima (opposite gender) is in our part of lumination.

Mercury is earth and air in my mind.
Jupiter is often feminine, just like neptune.
saturn can also be feminine but is almost always yang.
Jupiter statements are not as difficult to see, but the saturn one might.

Gender as expressed personally, and symbollicaly in someone's experience is different than their biochemistry, but I believe the two feed of off each other. This being said, the reality of gender is not in our ideas of it, but in the roles of interactions with ourselves and each other. External versus internal, doing and taking, receiving and being nourished.

Is the MC male (sky father) and the IC feminine? Do we have two sets of ancestors, along those same trajectories?

Lin
09-20-2013, 09:46 PM
Mars, Aries - male
Venus, Taurus -female
Gemini, Merc - neither or both
Cancer, Moon - female
Leo, Sun - male
Virgo, Merc - female
Libra, Venus -male
Scorpio, Pluto -female
Sagittarius, Jupiter -male
Capricorn, Saturn -female
Aquarius, Uranus -male
Pisces, Neptune -female

This means either aggressive or passive. Fruitful or barren.

Categorizing planets, signs, houses are all "background." Yes, it's important to keep these things in mind, but learning "meanings" is more important.

Studying astrology from step #1 and going from there means that as you go along, all the questions and concerns from your post above will be answered in time.

There are 3 (more, but I like these 3) book that are primarily concerned with the houses (and take in a lot of what you want to know from your op)

Dane Rudhyar's "The Astrological Houses: The Spectrum of Individual Experience"

"The Twelve Houses" by Howard Sasportas

"The House Connection" by Karen Hamaker-Zondag

Any of these books will give you an excellent perspective.
LIN

dr. farr
09-21-2013, 03:14 AM
I have long abandoned thinking of these matters in terms of gender (male, female) and have adopted simply + and - , "electro-positive" and "electro-negative" analogies, instead.

From my perspective,but including the outers, there is a perfect balance between + and - "poles", however since outers are involved, this schema cannot be outlined here on the Traditional Forum.

dr. farr
09-21-2013, 03:19 AM
Regarding allocation of sect, I reject the Western allocations and agree with those of Vedic astrology:

Sun, Jupiter, Venus diurnal
Moon, Saturn, Mars nocturnal
Mercury, variable

(however, I regard sect as a rather minor delineative consideration)

Paul_
09-21-2013, 11:46 AM
What does "gender" mean in astrology?

Rather than think in terms of 'man' and 'woman' or male and female, think instead in terms of direction - masculine here means outwardly directed, and feminine here means inwardly directed. More like an outward yang, and inward ying. They are not qualities as much as directions. Air is outwardly moving. It tends toward separating from its current place to move outward to some other place. Fire is similar. Water and earth on the other hand are inwardly moving, water tends to move inward on itself to pool in one place, similarly for earth it tends to stick to itself and move inward on itself.
The idea also contains the principle of containment versus dissemination. Masculine means to disseminate, feminine means to contain. Ignore connotations of actual men and women, or any of our own pre-existing gender steretotypes. These are not commentaries on social gender equality. Really it is not about gender at all, we're just stuck for a convenient word to mean "outwardly directed" and "inwardly directed". Together the positive charge and the negative charge create the current.


What does "sect" mean in astrology?

It means 'group' or 'party' or 'shift'. I might work the night shift, or I might work the day shift. That distinction is what sect is. Some employees are on the night shift, or the nocturnal shift, or the nocturnal sect (which means shift). And others are on the diurnal or daytime shift. When a planet is in its own sect, when a day planet is seen in a day chart, then that planet also has a connotation of being at rest or being able to be calm or serene or enjoy its position. On the other hand being contrary to sect, being of the nocturnal shift during the day (and vice versa) we have a sense of restlessness or anxiety or less serenity and peace. The planet is less capable of acting moderately or less able to display its best side.


What does "mode" mean in astrology?

Describes the typical expression of a sign, and in particular has connotations of longevity of action. Cardinal modes are those which have connotation of swinging around a fulcrum, there can be a bit of a tendency to connote an idea of a flag swinging on a pole - it changes direction quickly in response to external stimuli.
Fixed modes are the opposite, it's a gate with a rusty hinge. It doesn't swing easily, it does not yield easily. Therefore fixity has a sense of preservation about it, and a sense of longevity to it. It does not change quickly or easily, rather when it changes it has a sense of submitting or giving in to change, its natural state is instead to persevere against it.
Mutable is the middle way inbetween.


What does "element" mean in astrology?

It refers to an expression of a planet by its triplicity and has a philosophical root which links in terms of how a planet is expressed during a given sign. Planets are modified in their expression by the element of the sign that they are hosted in, and therefore its expression will be mitigated by that sign, including its element. Traditional astrology says not too much about element in general, but instead focuses on the distinction of the element by way of the fact that this grouping forms a triplicity and the relationship between planets of a given triplicity is note worthy, as are the rulers of a given triplicity for determining many things (too complicated to summarise). So we might observe the triplicity rulers of a sect light and expect that this may tell us something about the manifestation of the sect lights signification in the native's life.

eternalautumn
09-21-2013, 10:33 PM
What does "gender" mean in astrology?

Rather than think in terms of 'man' and 'woman' or male and female, think instead in terms of direction - masculine here means outwardly directed, and feminine here means inwardly directed. More like an outward yang, and inward ying. They are not qualities as much as directions. Air is outwardly moving. It tends toward separating from its current place to move outward to some other place. Fire is similar. Water and earth on the other hand are inwardly moving, water tends to move inward on itself to pool in one place, similarly for earth it tends to stick to itself and move inward on itself.
The idea also contains the principle of containment versus dissemination. Masculine means to disseminate, feminine means to contain. Ignore connotations of actual men and women, or any of our own pre-existing gender steretotypes. These are not commentaries on social gender equality. Really it is not about gender at all, we're just stuck for a convenient word to mean "outwardly directed" and "inwardly directed". Together the positive charge and the negative charge create the current.

Right, masculine = active, feminine = passive. Easy enough. Is this synonymous with the modern usage of these types of terms? Where do they separate, besides the obvious (outer planets, etc.)?

I will make the claim here that Saturn is a passive planet. Would you like to discuss, Paul?

What does "element" mean in astrology?

It refers to an expression of a planet by its triplicity and has a philosophical root which links in terms of how a planet is expressed during a given sign. Planets are modified in their expression by the element of the sign that they are hosted in, and therefore its expression will be mitigated by that sign, including its element. Traditional astrology says not too much about element in general, but instead focuses on the distinction of the element by way of the fact that this grouping forms a triplicity and the relationship between planets of a given triplicity is note worthy, as are the rulers of a given triplicity for determining many things (too complicated to summarise). So we might observe the triplicity rulers of a sect light and expect that this may tell us something about the manifestation of the sect lights signification in the native's life.

With this, how does the triplicity rulership scheme (for example, Sun, Jupiter, Saturn for fire) compare to the actual triplicity domicile rulerships (for example, Mars, Sun, Jupiter for fire)? Do both have separate importance/uses? Are they intertwined? Not important?

~

We could say that all these different factors affect the "behavior" of the planets, no? My question is what other factors or groups of factors affect the planets, and in what way? Conditions caused by the Sun, for example, and other accidental dignities and debilities. How do all the different groups of factors relate, in what ways, and what does it mean?

My goal with this thread is to start discussion on the basics and see where it goes. It's mainly to help clarify things in my mind, but also to hopefully provoke new insights.

wintersprite1
09-21-2013, 10:36 PM
A reminder, the traditional forum is ONLY for traditional astrology discussions. If opinions are offered, try to cite sources so the logic can be followed. A good rule of thumb, if it is before the outer planets were discovered, you should be fairly safe.

dr. farr
09-22-2013, 03:10 AM
On a comparative astrology note, Vedic astrology supports Eternalautumn's view regarding Saturn: they consider Saturn "a eunuch", and categorize the planet (gender-wise) as neutral. Western astrology (since Hellenist times at least) has always considered it "masculine"...

Paul_
09-27-2013, 01:00 PM
Charmvirgo,

Your thoughts, although interesting, are not reflective of the tradition and this is the traditional forum.

Your main point of confusion, from a traditional perspective, is the false assumption that "If the planet is male so are its two signs". This is not how it works traditionally, which manages to keep the system of genders etc. without being the Frankenstein you assume.

Why does it say in one list that a planet is male but say in another list that it rules a female sign, or say that itís a female planet but itís ruling a male sign? How can a planet be male yet the sign it rules be female, and how can a planet be female yet the sign it rules be male? Doesnít this bother you?


No, because you're comparing apples with pears. The reason the signs are given gender is irrespective of their rulers - this is the point you've misunderstood or disagreed with. The reason for assigning gender to the signs has to do instead with the balance of polarities between outwardly manifesting signs (fire and air) and inwardly manifesting one (the water and earth triplicity.
So traditionally we see, for example, that Saturn being a masculine planet, and having rulership over two domains, prefers the masculine domain as it better suits its nature. In other words Saturn prefers Aquarius over Capricorn, but rules over both.

Your mistake, from a traditional point of view, has been to consider that the qualities of the signs are directly dependent upon the planet, solely so for gender. And this is not true from a traditional perspective.

Can you name one Libra quality which is considered typically male

Already have. Libra is an air sign, and if you take a handful of air and release it, does it sit and pool in your hand or does it disseminate outwards? Its elemental direction describes its gender.

You have listed all the signs alternating male and female which is wrong

According to who? According to you? Perhaps. According to the tradition of astrology that is the focus of this forum - no.

All diurnal planets and signs should logically be above the horizon and all of the nocturnal below the horizon, because thatís what diurnal and nocturnal mean

That's exactly what it doesn't mean. There is a difference between masculine and diurnal and between feminine and nocturnal - though even in the tradition some authors have confused this. Gender relates more to its call to direction and action or passivity. Diurnal and Nocturnal refer more to the conditions of sect which best promote its positive qualities.

Therefore Saturn, being a masculine planet, tells us nothing especial about its sect status. In fact Mars, being excessively hot and dry, is cooled/moistened by the nocturnal sect, and so being placed there its immoderate excessiveness is tempered and its qualities made more moderate. In traditional thinking that the more moderate and temperate a planet's quality is, the more benefic it is or the better it is expressed, so we have Mars, a masculine planet, best expressed in a nocturnal sect status, and so we have a clear distinction between what is masculine or feminine and what is diurnal or nocturnal.

Your views here are based on misunderstandings and assumptions of the traditional logic and rationale.

I have just taken a couple of examples here.