PDA

View Full Version : Interpreting Empty Houses in Traditional Astrology


Linzul
08-28-2013, 02:49 PM
As a newbie to astrology in general and only now scratching the surface of differences between traditional and modern astrology this is my biggest question. Full disclosure: yes, I have empty houses so this is personally motivated.

Also if anyone can clarify, how do you figure out the chart ruler on a astrodienst chart? I'm reading about geniture and almuten, but the illustrations are very elaborate and artsy charts rather than the ones we commonly use here. Very pretty, but I'm unable to follow in a way I'm confident with.

JUPITERASC
08-28-2013, 03:21 PM
As a newbie to astrology in general and only now scratching the surface of differences between traditional and modern astrology this is my biggest question. Full disclosure: yes, I have empty houses so this is personally motivated.

Also if anyone can clarify, how do you figure out the chart ruler on a astrodienst chart? I'm reading about geniture and almuten, but the illustrations are very elaborate and artsy charts rather than the ones we commonly use here. Very pretty, but I'm unable to follow in a way I'm confident with.
There are several examples of traditional delineation of empty houses at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463 :smile:

In fact the OP begins by delineating the empty 7th house of 'Anonymous Woman 39'
Here I want to open a discussion
(alongside with practical examination) for delineating natal charts. I think this is the most important thing in Astrology delineation sessions because the predictions only give that which is promised in the natal chart.
I will use Alcabitius house system but will add to the delineation sporadically whole signs.
I intent to gave different examples of different themes or subject in different people's charts.
For example, we will use examination of 11th house for delineating native's friends or social life. 7th house for native's marriage and partnership. 9th house for native's religion, faith, journeys and etc..

Lets start with example.

http://i40.tinypic.com/9rpnk4.png

This is a chart of a woman who is about 39 of age.
Lets call her Woman 39.
Her love life is awful. She is almost 40 and still single. She had some relationships in the past but nothing worked out and as she said to me: "I've accepted the fact that I will maybe be single for the whole of my life".

Lets examine her 7th house.

It falls in Leo.

First we look to find a planets there,
because the dominion by placement
is much more immediate and powerful then dominion by rulership.

There are no planets in the 7th house.

Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Sun.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3).
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: Sun
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn
Term: Jupiter
Decan: Saturn
Fifth, according to Abu Ali we need to consider the Arabic Parts related to the matters of the house we delineate. In this case that would be Part of Marriage. I use the Part of Marriage according to Paulus: ASC + SA - VE for Women, reversed for Man.
Her Part of Marriage falls again in 7th in Leo15, again in the terms and decan of Saturn/Jupiter.

"All the good or bad for the house emanates from its ruler", this is one of the rules for delineating.

In this case, great ruler of the 7th house is the Sun. It is in 9th with the Moon. (I think that I read in Cardanus, but I'm not sure if it was Cardanus, that the person with Moon combust would probably not be married).

We need to mention here the 4 most common afflictions cited by Bonatti (he actually gives 10, but 4 of them according to Zoller are most in use):
1. Retrogradation
2. Combustion
3. Cadent
4. Conjuntion, Square or Opposition by Malefic

So, having this in mind lets examine all the rulers of the 7th.
Sun is in 9th (cadent) making opposition to Mars in 3rd Retrograde. (Two rules of affliction are present: cadent and opposition with malefic).
Jupiter (2nd Triplicity ruler) is in tide square to the same Mars.
Saturn is cadent in 6th, Retrograde and in conjunction to the Cauda Draconis (decreasing all which conjunct).

It seems out that that Mars retrogarde, in detriment, and cadent in 3rd is the source of many troubles in her life.

Linzul
08-28-2013, 06:15 PM
Awesome thread, thanks for the link and the chart! Later I'm going to look at it more in depth for sure, there's stuff mentioned in the post I didn't know about at all so it will be interesting to look up all the meanings and flesh out a better understanding. For funsies I'm going to do my 5th house modeled on the example you linked. I fill it out more as my comprehension allows after study.


5th House in Pisces, no planets, here goes:

Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Jupiter.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3). Here I'm not sure. Triplicity is Venus, Mars, Moon. If I knew what was being assigned the values in the (5+3) equation then I could probably figure it out. Later I guess when I have time to google-fu.
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: If this is asking for the ruler of the House, then that is Leo, which is Sun.
Exaltation: Venus
Triplicity: Venus, Mars, Moon (Venus ruler, it's a day chart with Sun in the 10th House)
Term: (no idea yet)
Decan: Moon

JUPITERASC
08-28-2013, 07:08 PM
Awesome thread, thanks for the link and the chart! Later I'm going to look at it more in depth for sure, there's stuff mentioned in the post I didn't know about at all so it will be interesting to look up all the meanings and flesh out a better understanding. For funsies I'm going to do my 5th house modeled on the example you linked. I fill it out more as my comprehension allows after study.


5th House in Pisces, no planets, here goes:

Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Jupiter.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3). Here I'm not sure. Triplicity is Venus, Mars, Moon. If I knew what was being assigned the values in the (5+3) equation then I could probably figure it out. Later I guess when I have time to google-fu.
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: If this is asking for the ruler of the House, then that is Leo, which is Sun.

Exaltation: None
Venus is Exalted in Pisces
Exaltation: Venus

Triplicity: Venus, Mars, Moon
For this particular Triplicity

Venus is the Day Triplicity Ruler
Mars is the Night Triplicity Ruler
Moon is Participating Triplicity Ruler

So, for this particular example, if this were a Day Chart, then Venus is the Triplicity Ruler
and if this were a Night Chart, then Mars is the Triplicity Ruler
Moon is the participating Triplicity for both Day and Night

Term: (no idea yet)
Interestingly, there are alternative Triplicity rulers - Skyscript provides those of Ptolemy

- Here's The Dorothean Terms Table

http://internationsocietyofclassicalastrologers.files.wor dpress.com/2013/04/essential_dignities_table.jpg


Decan: (no idea yet)
Each house consists of 30 degrees. Those 30 degrees are divided into decans. Each Decan has a ruler.

The Decans are shown in the above table

i.e. First decan of each house occupies the ten degrees numbered 0 to 10:
Second decan of each house occupies the ten degrees numbered 10 to 20
and the Third decan of each house occupies the ten degrees numbered 20 to 30 in the column headed Decanate
Decan is short form of 'Decanate' :smile:

Linzul
08-28-2013, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the exalted clarification! I saw it when you posted it in the other thread but wasn't sure how to apply it here. When I was looking it up all I got was exalted degrees of Pisces, and mine is not in that category. Stuff like that trips me up. I need to buy a book and forsake the internet aside from speaking to other actual people. The charts and symbols are absolutely making more sense now that I have a description coupled with a familiar layout, that's a major help. I can fill in my Decan now, thanks for the chart and explanation!

Off to work now but I will read the rest later for sure, thank you!

JUPITERASC
08-28-2013, 07:31 PM
Thanks for the exalted clarification! I saw it when you posted it in the other thread but wasn't sure how to apply it here. When I was looking it up all I got was exalted degrees of Pisces, and mine is not in that category. Stuff like that trips me up. I need to buy a book and forsake the internet aside from speaking to other actual people. The charts and symbols are absolutely making more sense now that I have a description coupled with a familiar layout, that's a major help. I can fill in my Decan now, thanks for the chart and explanation!

Off to work now but I will read the rest later for sure, thank you!
Well done :smile:

There are several books that may interest you - including:

Benjamin Dykes, Traditional Astrologer TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY FOR TODAY - AN INTRODUCTION http://www.bendykes.com/tafortoday.php

'....Traditional Astrology for Today is designed for the curious modern astrology student or practicing professional. Do you:


Want an introduction before spending more time and money on traditional books or courses?
Want to supplement your current practice with traditional techniques?
Need basic objections to traditional astrology answered?
Seek a quick guide to basic ideas, vocabulary, history, and the names and works of older astrologers?
Need an up-to-date reference guide to the best, current books in English?...'


'....This book is designed to fulfill these needs. In it, Benjamin Dykes explains how using numerous techniques and concepts from our heritage will enhance your chart reading today. Traditional Astrology for Today provides a brisk and helpful guide to traditional astrological history, concepts, interpretation rules, predictive methods, as well as philosophical ideas and counseling strategies. The book concludes with responses to common objections, a guide for further study, and an extensive glossary. Throughout, Benjamin Dykes emphasizes the humanity of traditional astrology and the contributions it can make to contemporary practice. Preview a PDF excerpt here (http://www.bendykes.com/pdfs/taft.pdf).
Whether you want to move forward in traditional astrology or just learn a few more techniques, Traditional Astrology for Today will give you a solid grounding, allowing you to enrich your experience and skills immediately...'

AND YET THERE IS NO NEED TO 'FORSAKE THE INTERNET' -

there's reliable FREE information on Terms
also known as Bounds or Limits
written by Douglas Noblehorse
and accessible in printable and/or downloadable pdf form at http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseBoundsPart1.pdf
and part two http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseBoundsPart2.pdf

BobZemco
08-28-2013, 11:58 PM
As a newbie to astrology in general and only now scratching the surface of differences between traditional and modern astrology this is my biggest question. Full disclosure: yes, I have empty houses so this is personally motivated.

Also if anyone can clarify, how do you figure out the chart ruler on a astrodienst chart? I'm reading about geniture and almuten, but the illustrations are very elaborate and artsy charts rather than the ones we commonly use here. Very pretty, but I'm unable to follow in a way I'm confident with.

You're putting the cart before the horse a wee bit. Examine the condition of your Planets first.

In fact the OP begins by delineating the empty 7th house of 'Anonymous Woman 39'

It seems out that that Mars retrogarde, in detriment, and cadent in 3rd is the source of many troubles in her life.

That doesn't make any sense.

I think the birth time is off by a few minutes. You follow?

Her Ascendant is probably 28 or 29 Capricorn, making Saturn the Ascendant and 1st Sign Ruler. In that case, Saturn would be Retrograde in Cancer in 7th House.....that alone spells doom being in aversion to the Benefics, but it also makes Moon the 7th Ruler and the Dispositor of Saturn, and Moon is Combust and in Scorpio.

That, explains the marriage situation.

Otherwise, with an Aquarius Ascendant, you'd have to accept that Scorpio Sun is in the 10th and received by Taurus Mars, and that would make 7th Matters an extreme high priority for her. Granted, the Sun/Mars opposition has separated, but they are still within Moiety and in Signs on the corners.

Note that a Capricorn Ascendant also puts Peregrine Venus in the 12th House, and that also makes Sagittarius Peregrine Venus in charge of the 9th and 5th Signs....that would explain a lot....meaning 9th Sign matters are ruled by Peregrine Venus in the 12th....and so is her 5th House of Pleasure...and Children. With a Capricorn Ascendant, Retrograde Taurus Mars in the 5th ruling the 11th would also explain the lack of children, and more important, that this woman just does not know how to have fun...which might be why her love life is a disaster.

5th House in Pisces, no planets, here goes:

Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Jupiter.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3). Here I'm not sure. Triplicity is Venus, Mars, Moon. If I knew what was being assigned the values in the (5+3) equation then I could probably figure it out. Later I guess when I have time to google-fu.
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: If this is asking for the ruler of the House, then that is Leo, which is Sun.
Exaltation: Venus
Triplicity: Venus, Mars, Moon (Venus ruler, it's a day chart with Sun in the 10th House)
Term: (no idea yet)
Decan: Moon

An easier way to start is just look at where Jupiter is by House/Sign, and if Jupiter is not in Sagittarius or Cancer, then you'll need to look at the Planet that rules the Sign in which Jupiter sits.

Linzul
08-29-2013, 01:26 AM
You're putting the cart before the horse a wee bit. Examine the condition of your Planets first.

I can do that, I think I'm starting to go a bit nuts from extremely early rising! I saw the quote and was like "Sweet I'll just replace all that info with my empty house info and go from there." like an astrology equation or something, it was being viewed as a template, I still have not looked at what anything may mean yet regarding 5th house info in my chart.

When it comes to looking at your own chart is that weird? Is it the equivalent of self diagnosis or delusion? Anyone can go to WebMD and give it a go, but whether their cough is cancer or the sniffles is really a subjective mess!


An easier way to start is just look at where Jupiter is by House/Sign, and if Jupiter is not in Sagittarius or Cancer, then you'll need to look at the Planet that rules the Sign in which Jupiter sits.

Will do!

dr. farr
08-29-2013, 03:50 AM
Additional oldtime methods:

-see if the dodekatemorion of any planet falls in the house: if it does then it would be interpreted exactly as if that planet were in that house
(dodeks are multiplications of the degree a planet is in, either by a factor of 12-Egyptian dodeks-or 13-Pauline dodeks-then subtracting 30 degrees, beginning with the sign in which the planet is located, until you come to the last number: that place is the dodek of the planet:
Example: Jupiter is located at 10 degrees Aries: using the Pauline dodek factor, multiple 10 by 13, this = 130: now, starting with Aries, subtract 30 degrees sign by sign: 130 minus 30 degrees Aries = 100; minus 30 degrees Taurus = 70; minus 30 degrees Gemini = 40; minus 30 degrees Cancer = 10: since we cannot subtract 30 degrees any more, the 10 left over = 10 degrees Leo: therefore the Pauline dodek of Jupiter is located @ 10 degrees Leo: now, say there are no planets posited in Leo: since the dodek of Jupiter is in Leo, oldtime Hellenists would delineate Leo AS IF JUPITER WERE POSITED THEREIN;
..this was a major delineative and predictive method in Hellenist times: it fell out of use in early Islamic transitional era times, and has not been used by Traditionalists, and only rarely by the small number of contemporary neo-Hellenist enthusiasts)

-another oldtime method for empty houses: see if any fixed star is within a couple degrees longitudinal conjunction with the cusp of the empty house: if one is, then see the planetary qualities attributed to that star: delineate the house as if the planet or planets which the star is "similar" to, were in that house.

poyi
08-29-2013, 04:38 AM
Not very often dr Farr talks that much...very passionate about this topic but is hard for me and maybe also hard for poster to understand!!! :(

dr. farr
08-29-2013, 05:01 AM
I know, it can be difficult to understand, but actually when you do it its not that hard to do.
Simple (and effective) approach is just to use the domicile ruler (dispositor on the sign on the cusp of the empty house) to delineate the house (basically this is the fundamental approach in Vedic astrology as well as in Western astrology)

poyi
08-29-2013, 05:04 AM
I think that is just depending on which method clicks in your head. I think it might click in my head later on, once I read it a few more times :(

tsmall
08-29-2013, 05:11 AM
Additional oldtime methods:

-see if the dodekatemorion of any planet falls in the house: if it does then it would be interpreted exactly as if that planet were in that house
(dodeks are multiplications of the degree a planet is in, either by a factor of 12-Egyptian dodeks-or 13-Pauline dodeks-then subtracting 30 degrees, beginning with the sign in which the planet is located, until you come to the last number: that place is the dodek of the planet:
Example: Jupiter is located at 10 degrees Aries: using the Pauline dodek factor, multiple 10 by 13, this = 130: now, starting with Aries, subtract 30 degrees sign by sign: 130 minus 30 degrees Aries = 100; minus 30 degrees Taurus = 70; minus 30 degrees Gemini = 40; minus 30 degrees Cancer = 10: since we cannot subtract 30 degrees any more, the 10 left over = 10 degrees Leo: therefore the Pauline dodek of Jupiter is located @ 10 degrees Leo: now, say there are no planets posited in Leo: since the dodek of Jupiter is in Leo, oldtime Hellenists would delineate Leo AS IF JUPITER WERE POSITED THEREIN;
..this was a major delineative and predictive method in Hellenist times: it fell out of use in early Islamic transitional era times, and has not been used by Traditionalists, and only rarely by the small number of contemporary neo-Hellenist enthusiasts)

-another oldtime method for empty houses: see if any fixed star is within a couple degrees longitudinal conjunction with the cusp of the empty house: if one is, then see the planetary qualities attributed to that star: delineate the house as if the planet or planets which the star is "similar" to, were in that house.

dodekatemorion = 12th part. It's actually a pretty easy concept when we consider that the ancients knew that we were all connected. Each sign contains within it a tiny slice of all the other 11 signs. And then each of those 2 1/2 degree slices have a ruler of the traditional sign. For my part, I find it beautiful.

dr. farr, I think it would be fair to point out that when using whole sign houses only, vs. any other quadrant based house system, the house cusps will change.

If someone really wants to learn traditional methods, then starting with the condition of each planet where it finds itself in the chart is the place to begin. Not everyone can be tossed off the deep end and swim.

Linzul, there are 12 houses/signs, you follow? We are in the traditional forum, which means we want to look at the 7 classical planets (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn) but even if we want to add Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, there still aren't enough planets to occupy all 12 houses, and because of the nature of Mercury and Venus in that they travel closely to the Sun...meaning that almost every natal chart has "empty" houses. What you've been given for advice is sound, and how astrology is practiced. We look at the ruler of those signs on the cusps of the houses, and then most important is to determine if the ruler is in good shape, and whether or not the ruler can actually regard "see" into those houses.

dr. farr
08-29-2013, 05:18 AM
dodekatemorion = 12th part. It's actually a pretty easy concept when we consider that the ancients knew that we were all connected. Each sign contains within it a tiny slice of all the other 11 signs. And then each of those 2 1/2 degree slices have a ruler of the traditional sign. For my part, I find it beautiful.

dr. farr, I think it would be fair to point out that when using whole sign houses only, vs. any other quadrant based house system, the house cusps will change.
.

True, and the oldtime Greco-Romans used the whole sign house "cusps" (which were projections of the ascending degree into each of the other 11 houses)
However some of the Islamic and early Medieval practitioners used the Alchabitius house cusps, in application of the "star conjunct house cusp" approach (such as the Harranian Thabit ibn Qurra in the 900's)-in modern times (1930's) Vivian Robson did the same (no doubt led to this technique from his studies of the Medieval authors), using Placidus house cusps.

poyi
08-29-2013, 05:25 AM
Housing system must be one of the most confusing thing to new student. I tried Whole Sign, and commonly used Placidus and they both worked very well to me. For equal housing though not tried it yet.

I don't know much about decan but would that be possible that decan would be more important? I am just wondering.

poyi
08-29-2013, 05:28 AM
The Astrologer for DarkStar astrology she used Decans, fixed stars as well as asteroids and outers she mixes both ancients and modern methods really well and gave me shocking reading before. I am quite admired her daring approach in astrology.

dr. farr
08-29-2013, 05:30 AM
As you know, I only use Whole Sign (switching from Placidus, which I had previously used for 30+ years) Vedic astrology tends to use Equal House, and the Islamic era practitioners through the Renaissance times (including the great Guido Bonatti) all used Alchabitius.

If I HAD to choose a house format other than Whole Sign, it would be Placidus.

Konrad
08-29-2013, 11:39 AM
Honestly, I don't even look at houses all that much. I find they are to delineation what transits are to time-lords. In the example above, and using the Babylonian fixed zodiac and not the Tropical calendrical measurement, this woman's marriage woes are obvious. Valens states that the Moon invisible is one sign that the native will not marry. Venus' condition is also important. The native has had some form of relationship as Venus is in the 11th sign and close to culminating (so she can produce her natural significations), but she is in the bounds of Saturn and the sign of Mars. Being in Saturn's bounds can produce cold or odd relationships (bound lord as physical manifestation of planet) while Mars' poor condition (being Rx and opposed to the Sun) shows that they will not last (the quality Venus has to work with). Finally, the Lot of Marriage is in Cancer and ruled by this same invisible Moon (who is also on the road to nowhere void-in-course), and is managed by Venus. Venus is in aversion to the Moon, so she can't manage her significations and therefore we have a build-up of testimonies of a poor love-life, no houses or rulerships needed.

It is probably best to remember that we are reading a natal chart and not a horary, from my observation of others and in my own experience, an over-dependancy on houses as the initial method of delineation leads to erroneous conclusions. They can be useful for fine-tuning the context of the planets and Lots and can sometimes give some valuable information, but they will never supercede a planet. Too often have I seen it said (and said myself) that a planet in the 7th adds a certain quality to the relationships only to be completely wrong and then to discover that Venus tells the story beautifully. :)

Linzul
08-29-2013, 12:06 PM
I really appreciate all the input! It does feel a little deep end, but I'm going to order that book and look up the terms and give it a go because it's all very interesting! That is the most intelligent thing I can think to do or say on a topic I'm sticking a toe into. I think I'll walk it back to planet location and their condition, then get back to my empty houses. Thanks again, very good info!

SunConjunctUranus
12-24-2018, 04:54 PM
There are several examples of traditional delineation of empty houses at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463 :smile:

In fact the OP begins by delineating the empty 7th house of 'Anonymous Woman 39'

@Juppy : did omni using tropical or sidereal on that example? if that account using tropical, I would be the ones who very unfortune in 7th H.

JUPITERASC
12-24-2018, 05:57 PM
@Juppy : did omni using tropical or sidereal on that example?
if that account using tropical, I would be the ones who very unfortune in 7th H.

Omnisphericus is using Tropical Medieval delineation
Tropical Medievgal delineation differs from Hellenistic delineation
Konrads comment is worth studying :smile:


Honestly, I don't even look at houses all that much.
I find they are to delineation what transits are to time-lords.
In the example above, and using the Babylonian fixed zodiac
and not the Tropical calendrical measurement, this woman's marriage woes are obvious.
Valens states that the Moon invisible is one sign that the native will not marry. Venus' condition is also important.
The native has had some form of relationship as Venus is in the 11th sign and close to culminating
(so she can produce her natural significations),
but she is in the bounds of Saturn and the sign of Mars.
Being in Saturn's bounds can produce cold or odd relationships
(bound lord as physical manifestation of planet) while Mars' poor condition (being Rx and opposed to the Sun)
shows that they will not last (the quality Venus has to work with).
Finally, the Lot of Marriage is in Cancer and ruled by this same invisible Moon
(who is also on the road to nowhere void-in-course), and is managed by Venus.
Venus is in aversion to the Moon, so she can't manage her significations
and therefore we have a build-up of testimonies of a poor love-life, no houses or rulerships needed.
It is probably best to remember that
we are reading a natal chart
and not a horary, from my observation of others
and in my own experience, an over-dependancy on houses
as the initial method of delineation
leads to erroneous conclusions.
They can be useful for fine-tuning the context of the planets and Lots
and can sometimes give some valuable information, but they will never supercede a planet.
Too often have I seen it said (and said myself)
that a planet in the 7th adds a certain quality to the relationships
only to be completely wrong
and then to discover that Venus tells the story beautifully. :)

SunConjunctUranus
12-24-2018, 06:10 PM
Omnisphericus is using Tropical Medieval delineation
Tropical Medievgal delineation differs from Hellenistic delineation
Konrads comment is worth studying :smile:

well, that would be contradiction with your own sign so that example from omni is bit inccorect :tongue:
or it could be correct IF we using sidereal and saturn would occupied her 7H???
her sun is FALL too by sidereal!!!

JUPITERASC
12-24-2018, 06:31 PM
Omnisphericus is using Tropical Medieval delineation
Tropical Medievgal delineation differs from Hellenistic delineation



well, that would be contradiction with your own sign so that example from omni is bit inccorect :tongue:


Not if you notice OMNISPHERICUS is not using Whole Sign Houses :smile:
In fact OMNISPERICUS is using Alcabitius Houses which places MARS in 3rd Alcabitius house
HOWEVER
using Whole Sign Houses
MARS is in 4th House


or it could be correct IF we using sidereal and saturn would occupied her 7H???
her sun is FALL too by sidereal!!!
I did recommend studying Konrads comment
because Konrad has some good advice
i.e


Honestly, I don't even look at houses all that much.
I find they are to delineation what transits are to time-lords.
In the example above, and using the Babylonian fixed zodiac
and not the Tropical calendrical measurement, this woman's marriage woes are obvious.
Valens states that the Moon invisible is one sign that the native will not marry. Venus' condition is also important.
The native has had some form of relationship as Venus is in the 11th sign and close to culminating
(so she can produce her natural significations),
but she is in the bounds of Saturn and the sign of Mars.
Being in Saturn's bounds can produce cold or odd relationships
(bound lord as physical manifestation of planet) while Mars' poor condition (being Rx and opposed to the Sun)
shows that they will not last (the quality Venus has to work with).
Finally, the Lot of Marriage is in Cancer and ruled by this same invisible Moon
(who is also on the road to nowhere void-in-course), and is managed by Venus.
Venus is in aversion to the Moon, so she can't manage her significations
and therefore we have a build-up of testimonies of a poor love-life, no houses or rulerships needed.
It is probably best to remember that
we are reading a natal chart
and not a horary, from my observation of others
and in my own experience, an over-dependancy on houses
as the initial method of delineation
leads to erroneous conclusions.
They can be useful for fine-tuning the context of the planets and Lots
and can sometimes give some valuable information, but they will never supercede a planet.
Too often have I seen it said (and said myself)
that a planet in the 7th adds a certain quality to the relationships
only to be completely wrong
and then to discover that Venus tells the story beautifully. :)

SunConjunctUranus
12-24-2018, 06:54 PM
Not if you notice OMNISPHERICUS is not using Whole Sign Houses :smile:
In fact OMNISPERICUS is using Alcabitius Houses which places MARS in 3rd Alcabitius house
HOWEVER
using Whole Sign Houses
MARS is in 4th House

I did recommend studying Konrads comment
because Konrad has some good advice
i.e

Nice!!! It's very clear now.

JUPITERASC
12-25-2018, 05:22 PM
Nice!!! It's very clear now.
A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the area of life in which the planet acts :smile:

as well as
how strongly the planet can act

https://numbersatplay.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/houses-labeled.gif

the quality of the planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of the PLANET

SunConjunctUranus
12-25-2018, 05:51 PM
A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the area of life in which the planet acts :smile:

as well as
how strongly the planet can act

https://numbersatplay.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/houses-labeled.gif

the quality of the planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of the PLANET

Then how to apply degree to the planets???

Oddity
12-26-2018, 09:23 AM
Dude, that graphic has no place in the trad forum. Nine is mental exploration? The sixth house as service and health?

Ouch.

A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the area of life in which the planet acts :smile:

as well as
how strongly the planet can act

https://numbersatplay.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/houses-labeled.gif

the quality of the planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of the PLANET

petosiris
12-26-2018, 10:07 AM
That graph needs more quadrupeds and slaves.

JUPITERASC
12-26-2018, 10:09 AM
Dude, that graphic has no place in the trad forum.
Nine is mental exploration?
The sixth house as service and health?
Ouch.
Those are just two from twelve houses
so
mention any issues with other ten houses on that graphic :smile:
nevertheless good to note that some are awake

by the way
"mental exploration" = aka Mystical Matters, divination and astrology dude
and
"service" = aka slaves aka modern day slavery
as for health
"health" = not necessarily "good health"

i.e.
health issues include sickness
but

hey dude
since



That graph needs more quadrupeds and slaves.


and so
the following is clearly apposite for traditional board
despite lack of quadrupeds





http://traditionalastrologyradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/astrological-houses-02.jpg

petosiris
12-26-2018, 11:48 AM
Where the f are life, siblings, parents, children, relatives, mysticism, enemies, property, gifts, inheritance and travel??? I think some moderns have forgot what is important in life.

SunConjunctUranus
12-26-2018, 12:06 PM
Where the f are life, siblings, parents, children, relatives, mysticism, enemies, property, gifts, inheritance and travel??? I think some moderns have forgot what is important in life.

They're care more about task from their boss/master :biggrin:

JUPITERASC
12-26-2018, 12:07 PM
Where the f are life, siblings, parents, children, relatives, mysticism, enemies, property, gifts, inheritance and travel???

I think some moderns have forgot what is important in life.

Hidden presumably
Obviously, with hindsight Self could be living or dead
Home is likely to include relatives, children, siblings et al
but certainly agree need to be stated clearly as in the following :smile:

otherwise causes confusion for beginners






http://traditionalastrologyradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/astrological-houses-02.jpg

petosiris
12-26-2018, 12:15 PM
I really have no idea why so many people are into one hour consultations for the most banal, new-agey, superfluous, pseudo-psychological mumbo jumbo information instead of ''brevity leading to the truth''. Why talk about ''self-undoing and regeneration'' instead of length of life or eminence? Or of ''home'' instead of parents and children? Or of ''mental exploration'' instead of the magnitude of education, religion and travel? Don't some people understand they sound pathetically shallow, and that instead of giving straightforward, simple foreknowledge that can be understood by anyone (and can be said in less than couple of minutes), they offer no prediction and thus no value to other people?

This is really what separates modern from traditional astrology, not the outers. Some matters have devolved.

JUPITERASC
12-26-2018, 12:32 PM
I really have no idea why so many people are into one hour consultations
for the most banal, new-agey, superfluous, pseudo-psychological mumbo jumbo information
instead of ''brevity leading to the truth''.
Why talk about ''self-undoing and regeneration''
instead of length of life or eminence? Or of ''home''
instead of parents and children?
Or of ''mental exploration''
instead of the magnitude of education, religion and travel?
Don't some people understand they sound pathetically shallow, and
that instead of giving straightforward, simple foreknowledge
that can be understood by anyone, they offer no prediction
and thus no value to other people?

Obviously, one hour new-agey pseudopsychological
one-size-fits-all banal consultations
assuages modern day craving for glossing over reality
and increasingly seems that
straightforward, simple foreknowledge
considered not politically correct
might upset the delicate
and so
when those factors are combined
with a need for a lucrative passtime
many do not mention for example
as commented on another thread
that


Leo, Capricorn, Pisces, Aries and Taurus are passionate, Virgo, Sagittarius Capricorn and Taurus are incomplete and cut-off. Scorpio and Capricorn are thievish. Capricorn is disgusting and outrageous. Scorpio and Leo are fierce. These are all according to Hellenistic astrologers.

Whenever the relevant significators are there, the nature of the images contribute in their own way.
most are seeking reassurance :smile:
rather than straightforward commonsense delineation


This is really what separates modern from traditional astrology,
not the outers.
Some matters have devolved.
Certainly the outers storm in a teacup
is a red herring
a distraction
that's clear

JUPITERASC
12-26-2018, 12:45 PM
Then how to apply degree to the planets???
begin with the PLANET :smile:
BEFORE applying degree issues
check the significations of the PLANET

for example
petosiris has provided extensive planetary signifcations
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=920697&postcount=1

JUPITERASC
12-29-2018, 09:29 PM
When a PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the area of life in which the planet acts

as well as
how strongly a planet can act

and by the way
relevant to the empty houses thread topic
and QUOTING Firmicus Maternus

'.....The house over which a planet rules
serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands.....' :smile:

https://www.bendykes.com/product-tag/firmicus-maternus/

and
the quality of a planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of a PLANET