PDA

View Full Version : The Ninth House and Religion


eternalautumn
08-03-2013, 08:17 PM
According to traditional astrology the ninth house rules religion and beliefs of a higher order.

What are your religious/spiritual/philosophical views? Do you believe in god? How does astrology fit into your system of belief?

What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart? Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign? What signs/houses do they rule in your chart, and are any planets there? What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?

I follow no religion or philosophy but am deeply interested in them all. I believe in god as far as I believe that it seems logical that the universe has a source, and that we could call that source god, but anything beyond that is improvisation. I believe in astrology because I believe that everything in our universe has a common source, and is therefore connected and unified, and that therefore looking to the macrocosm can inform us of the microcosm. It is in our nature to find patterns and I believe this is important in and of itself.

The ninth sign in my chart is Cancer, with Jupiter there, exalted. Jupiter rules the second and fifth houses, and no planets are placed there. The Moon is in the tenth house, conjunct the Midheaven, in Leo.

*Traditional Domicile Rulerships

Saturn = Capricorn, Aquarius
Jupiter = Sagittarius, Pisces
Mars = Aries, Scorpio
Sun = Leo
Venus = Taurus, Libra
Mercury = Gemini, Virgo
Moon = Cancer

[moderator note - moved thread to traditional forum as discussion requests traditional perspective]

JUPITERASC
08-03-2013, 10:13 PM
"If Venus were in the 9th house and in her own domicile or exaltation,
the native will be a famous hermit,
and this most strongly if Jupiter aspected by a good aspect"

Abu Bakr ON NATIVITIES


Mother Theresa
aka The Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
born 26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997
was an Albanian born, Indian Roman Catholic Religious Sister.

9th House Leo Venus
note Jupiter in Libra on MC in good aspect with Venus by sextile :smile:

keylime
08-10-2013, 12:44 PM
I was browsing through natal chart and since I've had more of an interest in house cusps and rulers lately came through this section and found your thread..I can relate quite a bit with what you said concerning not being religious but feeling there is something greater than ourselves kinda keeping things flowing about..I have never felt comfortable in any kind of group setting especially in churches. Maybe I didn't understand the purpose back then as a child, but now I do and I really don't care for it...just seems like another way for people to separate themselves from others when we should be pulling together...bit of a contradiction I think. I have moon in Leo in the 9th quintile Jupiter in Libra in the 11th . I am still trying to suss out the meaning of having moon in the 9th. I tend to look at the 9th as more of higher learning, philosophy, which I do think a lot about and I am most definitely an eternal student always wanting to learn more.
I'm really suprised more ppl have not commented in here?!
maybe this post will bump the thread up! hope you are still around EA!
ETA wen t back and saw you asked for some info.. 9th sign from Asc is (if you count the asc sign) Cancer. I am still learning about traditional so I need to go back and look at my chart and set it up with the traditional house system which I also need to check on...

keylime
08-10-2013, 01:02 PM
okay looks like whole signs are used...well that changes some things! now I have moon in leo in the 10th, jupiter in libra in the 12th...moon rules the 9th, jupiter rules the 2nd and 5 th houses also no planets there but do have NN in pisces in 5th...

nemesis
08-10-2013, 02:11 PM
My 9th is ruled by Capricorn and I have no planets there. I have Saturn in Virgo in my 5th House conjunct my Sun & Mercury.

I respect religion as a whole but do not follow any religion. I'm not very interested in religion except maybe ancient Mythology if that counts.

I believe in astrology but I do not live my life by it.

Zarathu
08-10-2013, 02:48 PM
I have Jupiter in my 9th house. Jupiter is RX and though it has low power it is also among the many low friction planets in my chart. My Sun is trine Jupiter and the aspect is the least friction aspect in my chart.

However Saturn is the ruler of my 9th house(and the 8th using Placidus), and Saturn is in the 4th in the 29th degree. Saturn has no power in my chart but because its very very high friction even a little bit of power goes a long long bad bad way.

While I am not involved in regular religion, I am a Quaker, which is really a kind of institutionalized mysticism. For me this means that I am really a Taoist who exists in a Quaker setting. I have studied the Trans Himalayan Wisdom TEaching for many years and did raja yoga for 25 years under the tutelage of the Arcane School in NYC.

The part of Love and Marriage is conjunct my Jupiter. The Arabic parts of Spirit and Religion are opposite my Jupiter. Oppositions are most solved by their midpoints. the midpoint for this is about 1degree 30 second of Taurus, which for a Witte point is: "Plans for work accomplished periodically. Plans for the distant future. Plans that are hindered or interrupted in their development." I have certainly played out my religious studies in this way.

My Jupiter is conjunct the Asteroid Themis, which represents the establishment of Justice, the embodiment of divine order, law, and custom. And as such, one could make a case for Astrology being an exposition of divine order for (hu)man to see for themselves. And thus my concepts of religious are bound into the concept of the conjunction of Jupiter in the 9th house with the Asteroid Themis.

I forgot that this was moved to the Traditional Forum. Much of what was listed here in my post is not used by Traditional Astrology. I will remove the response here if any traditionalists are offended

Moog
08-10-2013, 04:46 PM
Self analysis, why noot

Sun or Moon rule the 9th in my chart, depending upon the house system employed. Both are in Virgo

Jupiter in Leo also conjuncts the 9th cusp, or doesn't according to the same

I'm inclined to posit that the Moon rules the 9th. Apart from a fairly long stint grounded in Buddhist methods and concepts that I still keep close, my religious views change quite often, or rather, I explore and entertain many different religious ideas

As a child, I was more atheistic, and I've also found dystheism rather compelling, the idea that God is wholly malevolent. I might attribute that to the close conjunction of Saturn with the Moon in my chart.

Perhaps the chief tenet of Buddhism (the first noble truth) is 'there is suffering' and that's never been lost on me. I've also been attracted to stoicism, whether you call it philosophy or religion.

As a teen I was exploring Nihilism and Existentialism.

Recently I have been heavily influenced by Gnostic Christianity, Orphism, and Hinduism

9th house attributions seem to have been a big part of my life, particularly during the last decade or so. I seriously considered becoming a full time monk at one time.

Neptune Rising
08-10-2013, 06:01 PM
I have no planets in the 9th, but Mercury rules it and is in Aquarius, conjunct Venus, both trine (Pluto) and the MC. I have never been religious, although I was baptised a religion and was taught this at school. I have felt the need to explore different religions as an adult but never would call myself this or that, I find religion far too restrictive. My world perspective encompasses everything as one, all religions lead to the same place when they are broken down (my perspective) and followed through. In some sense, the only belief I subscribe to, is everything is energy, Universal energy, both seen and unseen and felt/sensed.

Though, my beliefs (in energy) come through when I teach (yoga/meditation etc) on a somewhat subconscious level - not directly through me preaching them. The 9th house ruler is conjunct the 10th house ruler, both sextile the Sag north node/ascendant.

*emma*
08-10-2013, 09:22 PM
According to traditional astrology the ninth house rules religion and beliefs of a higher order.

What are your religious/spiritual/philosophical views? Do you believe in god? How does astrology fit into your system of belief?

What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart? Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign? What signs/houses do they rule in your chart, and are any planets there? What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?

I follow no religion or philosophy but am deeply interested in them all. I believe in god as far as I believe that it seems logical that the universe has a source, and that we could call that source god, but anything beyond that is improvisation. I believe in astrology because I believe that everything in our universe has a common source, and is therefore connected and unified, and that therefore looking to the macrocosm can inform us of the microcosm. It is in our nature to find patterns and I believe this is important in and of itself.

The ninth sign in my chart is Cancer, with Jupiter there, exalted. Jupiter rules the second and fifth houses, and no planets are placed there. The Moon is in the tenth house, conjunct the Midheaven, in Leo.

*Traditional Domicile Rulerships

Saturn = Capricorn, Aquarius
Jupiter = Sagittarius, Pisces
Mars = Aries, Scorpio
Sun = Leo
Venus = Taurus, Libra
Mercury = Gemini, Virgo
Moon = Cancer

[moderator note - moved thread to traditional forum as discussion requests traditional perspective]

I liked your post alot but

i dont think the chart of anyone can answer this, it is beyond the chart, a chart may indicate trends and ways of trends, but never to a specific place

Kaiousei no Senshi
08-10-2013, 10:22 PM
There was another thread in the not too distant past that focused on the Ninth house.

You can go here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58841) for the information contained in that thread.

dr. farr
08-11-2013, 03:01 AM
In the divisional (ie harmonic) methods of Vedic astrology, an entire varga (divisional chart) is allocated for the delineation of the religious/spiritual relations affinities, proclivities and other factors involving the native: this is called the Vimsamsa chart (varga) and is the D20 chart of the natal (ie it is the 20th harmonic chart)...

poyi
08-11-2013, 07:43 PM
What are your religious/spiritual/philosophical views? Do you believe in god? How does astrology fit into your system of belief?

I believe in God since very young age might be early primary school age before I learned about any kind of religion. I look at the sky, hearing the birds, and the motion of water, I was the same only logical to believe in God.

Astrology fits into my believe system as I believe the existence of Past, Present and Future as a thread we can look at the past, now and future in one go as the future is already happened. Astrology can see Time in all directions. God is the Alpha and Omega.

In the time of God's creation, after the big bang, all things were in liquid form by today's scientific belief.

Mars would represent the beginning of the creation.

"During this time, the Universe would have been so hot and energetic that the particles making up the elements we know today were unable to form, leaving the constituents to float “free” as a primordial soup."

http://news.discovery.com/space/in-the-beginning-the-universe-was-a-liquid.htm

In the bible it said from NIV version,

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

"Waters" as form of liquids.

And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.”


Separation of waters between waters, the water above the sky, the sea/rivers/lakes are the the functions of Neptune and Saturn.

Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Here we see the signs of Virgo, Capricorn, and functions of Moon, Venus, Mercury and Saturn.


“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.”

Our Sun and Moon

...He also made the stars.

There are many more examples from the bible.

Doesn't matter which religion people believe in, I simply believe in stars, planets are created for reason and we are the "Products" of our environment. We live under the cycle of Time from the Lights and Darkness.


What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart? Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign? What signs/houses do they rule in your chart, and are any planets there? What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?

I am Virgo ascendant 9th house is Taurus. There is no planet placed in this house, Venus is in Libra the 2nd house in whole sign, 1st house if in Placidus. 7th house cusp is Pisces. So by traditional astrology it is ruled by my 4th house Jupiter.

It rules my 2nd house Libra as well. My second house has Pluto and Saturn.

I have Jupiter in Sagittarius very tightly conjuncts my IC and South Node. As a result Jupiter and South Node square my ascendant and descendant, opposite my MC where north node tightly conjunct my MC.

*emma*
08-11-2013, 10:37 PM
Poyi

bible is a book written by a certain small section of humanity millions of years after the creation of the earth......did they think they were first past the post? Or special to know how to explain it? A book written 4000 years ago purporting knowledge from millions if years ago is pants seeing as no science was involved...its hogwash imo .just fairytales or imaginings..the bible has wisdoms in it But then so do so many other books,but is full of cr ap in other ways...it is NOT the be all and end all on life, it was written by arrogant alpha males probably a few smoking a marijuana stick, whilst beating their wives, others worse, islam is worse in that respect 60 yr old men marrying 8 yr old children, god forbid

Ie the bible HAS NO MONOPOLY on truth morality righteousness in this day and age, we can see through its falseness, and its blatant eviil and ignorance sometimes,its based on fear and a horrid god, took jesuses teachings to set it all right not that he managed it

The ancient greek philosophers were wiser

You dont need dead idiots to rule your life or dictate in 2013

Why do you need a belief system from 4000 years ago? What credibility does it have apart from stupid kings giving it the go ahead?

if you wnt to keep up with the bible, the old testament is dead, its a pile of balls, jesus said listen to yourself not others, the answer is within you,basically jesus was saying dont be brainwashed and trust your own judgement,he was crucified for it, for telling people to think for themselves against the powers that be, no different today! Ahhistory repeats itself

for me people who believe the bible literally are stupid

Thatwas not to you poyi btw and i do believe in god, because i dont think a bunch of chemical reactions are God.....there must be an intelligence and a design...whichmeans a designer...my idea of designer of the beauty is not some judo christian islamic pathetic personage...the pathetic men who wrote the bible and the quran...failures and control freaks they practice to this day unfortunately and sad individuals believe their total GUFF

poyi
08-11-2013, 10:50 PM
Poyi

The bible is a book written by a certain small section of humanity millions of years after the creation of the earth......did they think they were first past the post? Or special to know how to explain it? A book written 4000 years ago purporting knowledge from millions if years ago is pants seeing as no science was involved...its hogwash imo ...the bible has wisdoms in it but is fukk of cr ap in other ways...it is NOT the be al and end all on life, it was written by arrogant alpha males probably a few smoking a marijuana stick, others worse

Ie the bible HAS NO MONOPOLY on truth morality righteousness in this day and age, we can see through its falseness, and its blatant evil, its based on fear and a horris god

The ancient greek philosophers were wiser

Haahaha emma, I am not specifically only into Christianity as I also see a lot of false in Christianity, Catholic and so on. There is no perfect religion. I am only using Bible to show how it actually fits with astrology from my point of views.

In fact, when we talk about religions then we already lost the pot. Being spiritual is more important. When I mean being spiritual that is your life fully committed to good course of other people's life. Every action in life, not based on your religious practices, what to eat, what to wear, when to wash your hair, how much money you donate to church, how often you go to church etc.

I have seen people cheated, and lied and be extreme greedy and called themselves Christians and lied about their tax to government. I have also see Monks driving expensive cars, and living a luxurious life and terrorists etc.

What I am trying to say here is If the God you believing in had not changed your life for a benefit of the world and for the people, plants, insects and animals in your life. Then the God you believed in has no power on saving you.

It is not necessary the God you believed in is not true God. It is more that your life is lifeless as you have not humble your heart and have self-awareness on our own weaknesses. What are the differences of being a human or animal, even animals can show compassion and they never take more than they need to survive.

The key of spirituality is to be aware of what am I doing now and am I helping myself to achieve a high self?

Am I assisting the people in my life to see hope and be strong when they face crisis?

Am I giving them comfort, practical helps and time as much as I could afford to?

Do I want to go beyond my mean as well?

Am I came to the understanding of you and I are united as a whole? The love I offer you today is the love I offered to myself?

Am I today becoming a better me than yesterday?

Moog
08-11-2013, 11:44 PM
In the divisional (ie harmonic) methods of Vedic astrology, an entire varga (divisional chart) is allocated for the delineation of the religious/spiritual relations affinities, proclivities and other factors involving the native: this is called the Vimsamsa chart (varga) and is the D20 chart of the natal (ie it is the 20th harmonic chart)...

dr. farr, what sources do you recommend if one wishes to study and understand Varga charts, know which ones correspond to what?

dr. farr
08-12-2013, 02:44 AM
I learned about them "directly" (from certain Jaimini adepts of Ponmudi forest, Kerala)-however some good elaborations can be found in Kumar's "Vargas: a Vedic Approach", and in Rath's anthology, "Varga Chakra"...

oriel
08-12-2013, 06:15 AM
I have virgo ascendant and my ninth house has jupiter in taurus.
My Jupiter is conjunct my MC and squaring my AC
I lean more on the gnostic and buddhist kind of teaching.I'm attracted to esoteric stuffs and the unknown ever since I could remember.

!4C
08-12-2013, 05:19 PM
My 9th house ruler, jupiter, is in aries 10th. Adopting someone else's beliefs isn't an option for me. :lol:

Carolus Optimus
08-13-2013, 03:20 AM
Pisces is on the cusp of my Ninth. Mars occupies the house.

Although I am not formally religious, I have a deep interest in the topic. I like to read and learn about Religion. I understand quite easily even difficult religious-theological concepts. I take notice of links and relationships between various religious teachings and customs that are not so obvious to others. I can teach and explain to other people what Religion is and how its various aspects work. I can notice errors in explanations and opinions of a religious nature and feel motivated to correct them using the proper arguments.

Both rulers of Pisces are in my Fifth House. Religion is a source of enjoyment for me and I see its heart, the content versus the form of mere exoteric religiousness. Both planets are positioned in Sagittarius, another religious sign.

I am interested in all Religions, but the one I am most deeply involved with is Christianity, because I live in a traditionally Christian country and I was raised in a family with a long lineage of practicing Roman Catholics. The astrological sign associated with Christianity is Pisces.

Mars has its effect on this House besides the motivation to learn Religion. I am also interested in religious debates, apologetic.

According to the Roman astrologer Firmicus Maternus, a person who has Mars in the Ninth in the Signs of Jupiter is able to cast out demons from the possessed and this he accomplishes with his mere presence. So this is the placement of the exorcist. An interesting statement and not completely baseless.

BobZemco
08-13-2013, 04:12 AM
According to traditional astrology the ninth house rules religion and beliefs of a higher order.

That's a corrupted view.

We must follow Marcus Aurelius in Meditations Book 10...
This thing, what is it in itself, in its own constitution? What is its substance and material? And what its causal nature (or form)? And what is it doing in the world? And how long does it subsist?

The 9th House is Travel... as it relates to Wisdom & Knowledge, and Religion would be a sub-set of that, as would Ideology (which would include Philosophical and Political Beliefs), since both stem from Wisdom & Knowledge.

You follow?

Let's go back 9,000 years to circa 7000 BCE.

A Sumerian king has granted someone a charter to establish a settlement as a favor perhaps for loyal service or good deeds done. As a small child, you go there with your family as part of the settlers, and when you come of age, you are tasked with Beer & Wine-making.

What do you do?

You travel (there's that word) to a city that has an edifice that functions as an astronomical observatory combination administrative offices and repository of knowledge -- a library more or less (which Christian archeologists crow-barred into a "temple") -- where a guy called a "priest" (as translated by Christian archeologists) will instruct you in the knowledge you seek.

Perhaps you don't need instruction.....perhaps as a sheep or goat herder, you have issues with selective breeding...you're trying to breed a separate stock of white sheep, black sheep, and spotted sheep....but having some problems doing so. You'd travel (there's that word again) to a city or region where there was a "temple" with a "priest" who would instruct you on animal husbandry.

And if not on animal husbandry, then irrigation, or medicine, or surgery, or farming or agriculture, or writing, or astronomy, or math or some other science, or some form of engineering like ship-building, building construction or mining.

That...is how it was done for thousands of years.

When the Greeks finally emerged, what did the Greeks do?

The Greeks all traveled (there's that word again) to Egypt to study and learn.

You know Solon? Of course not, he's been dead for thousands of years, but he left "Greece" as a boy to travel (there's that word again) to Egypt, to study and learn. Later, he returned to Egypt specifically to the "temple" at Sais, where the curator of knowledge -- a "priest" -- told him, "You people have no history because certain perturbations in the Earth's cycle [meaning Earth's orbit] cause cataclysms."

All of the "great" "Greek" philosophers and "mathematicians" traveled (TTWA)to Egypt to study....except one.....Aristotle.

Aristotle and his idiotic beliefs caused more damage to Humanity than any other person, with the exception of John the Bishop of Rome. If it wasn't for those two morons, we'd have landed on the Moon 500 years ago.

The whole point of this, is that concepts and ideas evolve over time.

Originally, everyone, including the Hebrews were polytheists. You can see that in elohim...the 'im' suffix indicates plural. Like all other cultures and civilizations -- at least those in the Mesopotamian region -- the Hebrews gravitate towards henotheism --- the elevation of a 'god' over a group of gods. The Hebrews worshiped the Ugaritic Pantheon and ultimately recognized Yahweh as supreme. Then later, as the idea of a 'national god' arises, the Hebrews become monaltrists ---- worshiping one god to the exclusion of all other gods....and there are other gods (at least according to the Hebrews). With the rise of Islam, the Hebrews eventually become monotheists about 1,300 year ago circa 700 CE or so. The Moors in Spain had an huge influence on Hebrew theology and the conversion to monotheism.

Other concepts and ideas parallel those developments.

Why does Yahweh murder everyone in cold blood?

Because Yahweh has no choice --- there is no After-life....there is no Heaven.....there is no Hell.

If Yahweh wants to reward you, then he must do that in the "Here & Now," because once you die, Yahweh is powerless to do anything. Likewise, if Yahweh wants to punish you, he must also do that in the "Here & Now" because once you're dead and gone, Yahweh is powerless to punish you.

It is the "Greeks" who invent/create Hell based on their misunderstanding of ancient texts, and with extremely heavy influence on Hebrew culture, the Hebrews eventually adopt a concept of an After-life. In fact, "Greek" culture was so pervasive, that the Septuagint was written in the Greek language, because the overwhelming vast majority of Hebrews spoke Greek, and not [Classical Biblical] Hebrew.

And then, too, theological conflicts develop over the same period.

If you obey Yahweh and keep his covenant, then you will be rewarded.

What happens in Reality™?

In Reality™ the people who obey Yahweh suffer incredible misfortunes and are repeatedly "punished" with disease, sorrow, loss of wealth or material possessions and so on, while those who blatantly disobey Yahweh are handsomely and richly rewarded, suffering nothing at all.

Nowhere is that more clear than with King Manasseh, who was (apparently) the most wicked king in Hebrew history, but who suffered nothing, was enriched and rewarded with great prosperity and died peacefully in his sleep at a ripe old age.

Contrast that with King Josiah -- alleged to be the most righteous king in Hebrew history -- who is slain in battle against the Egyptians; his body drug about and paraded around; the Hebrew army is totally annihilated; and Jerusalem is sacked and the Temple is "violated."

To add insult to injury, not long after that, the Kingdom of Judah is over-run; Jerusalem is destroyed; the Temple is destroyed; and the Hebrews are exiled and taken away as slaves.

How does one explain that theologically?

The Hebrews cannot, so the end up re-writing huge sections of their texts to reflect changes in theology.

And it doesn't end there. By the time the days of the Latter Prophets come to be, how do you please Yahweh? Keeping the covenants? Nope. Keeping the Commandments? Nope. You please Yahweh through Social Justice --- taking care of the elderly, the infirm, the widows, the orphans and such.

And the most amazing thing is that if the Kingdom of Israel is not destroyed, then the "Bible" as you all know it never exists.....in fact, it's unlikely Christianity would even exist.

You have two totally separate different religious traditions evolving. One under the Mosaic Priesthood --- the actual blood-descendants of X-Moses --- in the Kingdom of Israel, and then one under the Aaronid Priesthood -- the blood descendants of Aaron -- in the Kingdom of Judah.

When the Kingdom of Israel is destroyed and the Israelites exiled, the intelligentsia flees to Jerusalem in the Kingdom of Judah.

How do you resolve this problem of two totally separate religious traditions?

Create a national unity document --- that's what Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are....they're a set, a trilogy, written together to merge the two different religious traditions of the North and South.

One group --- the Aaronid Priesthood --- is not happy with this arrangement, and eventually they massacre the Mosaic priests, killing all of them.....except one who escapes the massacre.

Then the Aaronid Priests, well, Jeremiah actually, forges a new document you all know as Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy represents an wholesale change in theology --- altars are banned; all temples except for The Temple (at Jerusalem) are banned; all sacrifices are banned, except those in the The Temple; the style and type of sacrifices, including the entire ritual of sacrifice is changed, and so on.

For the next 1,000 years -- at least in the Western World --- nothing changes as one is still required to travel (TTWA) to a "religious" facility to gain knowledge and receive instruction.

Over that same time, it also becomes vogue to travel (TTWA) on a pilgrimage to a religious facility of some sort, and so it's easy to see how religion came to be associated with the 9th House.

This becomes ingrained in society even after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. If you want to be educated, or to learn, you must travel (TTWA) to a monastery or abbey to receive instruction from religious personnel. The idea of education sponsored or provided through the clergy also arises in Islam, and it continues in Christianity even after the Great Schism between the Papacy and the Orthodox.

Education at monasteries and abbeys evolves into education at religious-based universities run by clergy, and even after the Reformation it continues, only now you have Catholic universities and Protestant universities.

Government-based secular learning institutions, such as public schools are a very recent development.

No doubt, there's a relationship between travel and religion and the acquisition of knowledge and wisdom and learning. They are for the most part inextricably linked.

You can blame the Arabs, Persians and Latins for over-emphasizing the 9th House in the context of religion, and then the later post-Reformation crowd who effectively carved it into stone.

dr. farr
08-13-2013, 04:44 AM
Of course one could look at spirituality as a journey, religion as a journey from individuality to universality, life as a road upon which the soul travels toward the Infinite...9th house = travels, journeys, yes: ALL kinds of them!

BobZemco
08-13-2013, 05:18 AM
What are your religious...views?
Areligious; an atheist...religion is of no value or benefit....it is effectively legalized brain-washing, not to mention incredibly divisive.

What are your spiritual...views?
Spirituality and Religion are not mutually exclusive per se, but they are not synonymous.
All humans are spiritual beings by nature, but not all humans are religious beings.
I'm extremely spiritual, especially in the woods or at the sea.

What are your philosophical views?
I'm a naturalist....Natural Laws....everything seeks equilibrium, no matter what it is.

Do you believe in god?
No, I'm way too intelligent for that, and besides....my standard of ethics and morals are superior to any god-thing that has ever been alleged to exist.

How does astrology fit into your system of belief?
Fits perfectly. It's all natural, based on math and science.
I'm also a Determinist. You have no Free Will -- except of the minutia of your life, and even that is debatable...I would argue you don't even have Free Will over the minutia, since that is programmed from birth.
Do you want to see something really stupid?
Free Will Moron: "You have Free Will....hey, let's check your Transits and Progressions and Solar Arcs....to see what happened to you in the Past."

That's the Great Irony....quite the Paradox.

What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart?
Cancer.

Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign?
Venus. It's a Diurnal Chart, so Venus is not in-Sect, but Venus is in a Feminine Quadrant and Feminine Sign.
What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?
Venus at 4° Cancer is in an applying to trine to Jupiter at 10° Pisces. Cancer is of course the Exaltation of Jupiter who receives Venus, and Pisces is the Exaltation of Venus who receives Jupiter.

Moon at 7° Pisces is joining Jupiter.
Sun at 5° Gemini is in an applying square to Jupiter. Both Saturn and Mars are in aversion to Moon/Jupiter.
Venus is in aversion to Saturn, but is square by Sign to Mars.

What signs/houses do they rule in your chart, and are any planets there?
Venus rules the empty Libra 12th House, and the empty Taurus 7th House.

I follow no religion or philosophy but am deeply interested in them all. I believe in god as far as I believe that it seems logical that the universe has a source, and that we could call that source god, but anything beyond that is improvisation. I believe in astrology because I believe that everything in our universe has a common source, and is therefore connected and unified, and that therefore looking to the macrocosm can inform us of the microcosm. It is in our nature to find patterns and I believe this is important in and of itself.
Okay.

The ninth sign in my chart is Cancer, with Jupiter there, exalted. Jupiter rules the second and fifth houses, and no planets are placed there. The Moon is in the tenth house, conjunct the Midheaven, in Leo.

Interesting.


...just seems like another way for people to separate themselves from others when we should be pulling together...bit of a contradiction I think.
No contradictions there.
Humans cannot function without an hierarchical structure.

That Humans would gravitate into hierarchical groups is no surprise.

That Humans would gravitate into hierarchical groups with interests, goals and agendas similar to each is no surprise either.
What is surprising is that you don't seem understand that the interests and goals of such groups often conflict resulting in harm to one or the other, or both, whether it is a family, a clan, a street, a neighborhood, a community, a city, county or State.
I tend to look at the 9th as more of higher learning, philosophy,....
Sure. Religion is a subset of learning, knowledge, wisdom and philosophy, but it's absurd to for people to suggest that it is primarily religion.

...9th sign from Asc is (if you count the asc sign) Cancer. I am still learning about traditional....
Really? Well, so far you're learning well.

The Sign always over-rules, regardless of the House System used.

When you start doing charts, you'll see how important it is to make the distinction between the MC falling in the 11th Sign, or the 10th Sign or the 9th Sign.

i dont think the chart of anyone can answer this, it is beyond the chart, a chart may indicate trends and ways of trends, but never to a specific place
Fortunately, there are those of us who are more knowledgeable and experienced to guide others and in this matter.

DreamingTheSeas
08-13-2013, 06:06 AM
That's a corrupted view.

...

Aristotle and his idiotic beliefs caused more damage to Humanity than any other person, with the exception of John the Bishop of Rome. If it wasn't for those two morons, we'd have landed on the Moon 500 years ago.

......

Bob how did you came up with this theory? Where do u base this?

JUPITERASC
08-13-2013, 12:18 PM
That's a corrupted view.

Aristotle and his idiotic beliefs caused more damage to Humanity than any other person, with the exception of John the Bishop of Rome. If it wasn't for those two morons, we'd have landed on the Moon 500 years ago
Quite so :smile:

For example:

QUOTE

'....The celestial sphere is a convenient fiction to locate objects in the sky. However, the Greek philosopher Aristotle proposed that the heavens were LITERALLY composed of 55 concentric, crystalline spheres to which the celestial objects were attached and which rotated at different velocities - but the angular velocity was constant for a given sphere - with the Earth at the center.

The following figure illustrates the ordering of the spheres to which the Sun, Moon, and visible planets were attached. The diagram is not to scale, and the planets are aligned for convenience in illustration; generally they were distributed around the spheres....'


http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.gif
'….Additional "buffering" spheres between those illustrated included sphere of the stars, beyond the ones shown for the planets: finally there was an outermost sphere that was the domain of the "Prime Mover" - who Aristotle said caused outermost sphere to rotate at constant angular velocity - the motion imparted sphere to sphere - causing the whole thing to rotate. By adjusting velocities of these concentric spheres, many features of planetary motion could be explained. BUT troubling observations of varying planetary brightness and retrograde motion could not be accommodated: the spheres moved with constant angular velocity, and the objects attached to them were always the same distance from earth because they moved on spheres with the earth at the center.....'


ENTER CENTER STAGE
MATHEMATICIAN AND ASTRONOMER CLAUDIUS PTOLEMY


'....Ptolemy 'solved' these anomalies in the form of a mad, but clever proposal that planets were attached - not to concentric spheres themselves - but to circles attached to the concentric spheres, called "Epicycles": the concentric spheres to which they were attached were termed the "Deferents".

Then, the centers of the epicycles executed uniform circular motion as they went around the deferent at uniform angular velocity, and at the same time the epicyles - to which the planets were attached - executed their own uniform circular motion.

Ptolemy's tortured model shows the idea of uniform circular motion is saved - at least in some sense - by this scheme, and it allows a description of retrograde motion and varying planetary brightness...'

VIEW ANIMATION/ILLUSTRATION OF
THE UNIVERSE OF ARISTOTLE AND PTOLEMY AT http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

Paul_
08-13-2013, 02:11 PM
I think the thing to think about with the 9th house is it's basic meaning - which, in my view, is not about travel per se, nor about religion per se, but instead about that which broadens the mind or enriches our experience. Religious and travel are, traditionally at least, the most obvious examples of this, as is higher education. They all fall under this spectrum. It can be tempting to think that the 9th is more about religion, or more about travel, but really the basic principle is not, those are just examples.

"What are your religious/spiritual/philosophical views? "

Far too complex and broad to fit into a post here. But the basics would be to try to be compassionate to others, and to not attach to impermanence.

"Do you believe in god? "

Yes, of a sort.

"How does astrology fit into your system of belief?"

Often smoothly. It is a tool, and like all tools it has specific uses, I utilise that tool for often very practical purposes according to my understanding of the world around me as dictated by my philosophy.

JUPITERASC
08-13-2013, 02:23 PM
....But the basics would be to try to be compassionate to others, and to not attach to impermanence.

"Do you believe in god? "

Yes, of a sort.

"How does astrology fit into your system of belief?"

Often smoothly. It is a tool, and like all tools it has specific uses, I utilise that tool for often very practical purposes according to my understanding of the world around me as dictated by my philosophy.
Regarding impermanence :smile:

The world itself
is impermanent
one's understanding of the world around one
as dictated by one's philosophy
necessarily is also impermanent

Kirka
08-13-2013, 05:27 PM
My 9th house is in Scorpio, and Mars and Saturn are in it. Mars makes a trine with Venus which is in Aries in 2nd house and a conjunction with MC - Sagittarius. Saturn opposition Mercury (2nd house, Mercury in Taurus).
I don't believe in god, or astrology or anything I guess. But I love to read about it all. I consider myself an atheist although I would really like if I could believe in god or something if it makes any sense :)
I think life is somehow more peaceful when you're a believer. And my general premise is just because something is an uncomfortable thought it doesn't mean it's not a fact. So for all I know when you die that's it, you get buried and you rot.

Carolus Optimus
08-13-2013, 06:00 PM
I don't believe in god, or astrology or anything I guess.

I consider myself an atheist

So for all I know when you die that's it, you get buried and you rot.


Yes yes, this is good ol' Saturn in the Ninth, a quite unfortunate placement in a chart. The sign of a materialist.

It can also severely hinder any educational effort beyond secondary school. What is your highest level of education if I may ask?

poyi
08-13-2013, 06:03 PM
Yes yes, this is good ol' Saturn in the Ninth, a quite unfortunate placement in a chart. The sign of a materialist.

It can also severely hinder any educational effort beyond secondary school. What is your highest level of education if I may ask?

What about Saturn return at the 9th house? Would it change any of the 9th house related issues?

Kirka, where is your Pluto then?

Kirka
08-13-2013, 06:14 PM
I have a Master in Economy why?

Kirka
08-13-2013, 06:16 PM
My Pluto is in Scorpio in 8th house (in Libra).
Pluto, Saturn and Mars are all retrograde.

poyi
08-13-2013, 06:20 PM
I have a Master in Economy why?

Normally Saturn means restriction yet intense and seriousness opposite energy of the House of Jupiter.

However, you have Mars in Scorpio in there and conjunct MC which is the transitional ruler which gave Saturn strength and Saturn is the ruler of the material world. I guess Saturn rules your 11th house which is the 2nd house of the 10th. In traditional astrology Saturn should also rules your Aquarius 12th house of mysticism, just one of 12th house's names.

Where is your Pluto? it would be interesting to look at.

poyi
08-13-2013, 06:21 PM
My Pluto is in Scorpio in 8th house (in Libra).
Pluto, Saturn and Mars are all retrograde.

That's why you are here in the astrology forum. Ruler of the house of higher mind, Mars in 9th, Pluto in 8th, Saturn in 9th ruling 12th house.

JUPITERASC
08-13-2013, 06:38 PM
Yes yes, this is good ol' Saturn in the Ninth, a quite unfortunate placement in a chart. The sign of a materialist.

It can also severely hinder any educational effort beyond secondary school. What is your highest level of education if I may ask?
I have a Master in Economy why?
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur :smile: Things are not always what they appear to be

Kirka
08-13-2013, 06:40 PM
That's why you are here in the astrology forum. Ruler of the house of higher mind, Mars in 9th, Pluto in 8th, Saturn in 9th ruling 12th house.

I don't understand what you mean?
My 12th house is in Capricorn. My Sun is in Aries in 2nd house. Sun opposition Pluto.
I have to admit I am a very materialistic person.I care about money very much. But I would rather make the money myself than inherit it etc.
Also just because I'm materialistic it doesn't mean I'm not interested in spiritual.
As I said, I love to read about religion and astrology and even some other things (numerology, astral projection, lucid dreaming etc.) it's just that I don't believe in all that.

JUPITERASC
08-13-2013, 06:48 PM
Yes yes, this is good ol' Saturn in the Ninth, a quite unfortunate placement in a chart. The sign of a materialist.

It can also severely hinder any educational effort beyond secondary school. What is your highest level of education if I may ask?
I don't understand what you mean?
My 12th house is in Capricorn. My Sun is in Aries in 2nd house. Sun opposition Pluto.

I have to admit I am a very materialistic person.I care about money very much. But I would rather make the money myself than inherit it etc.

Also just because I'm materialistic it doesn't mean I'm not interested in spiritual.

As I said, I love to read about religion and astrology and even some other things (numerology, astral projection, lucid dreaming etc.) it's just that I don't believe in all that.
So then for the purposes of this discussion at any rate, how would one define 'materialistic'? :smile:

poyi
08-13-2013, 06:53 PM
I don't understand what you mean?
My 12th house is in Capricorn. My Sun is in Aries in 2nd house. Sun opposition Pluto.
I have to admit I am a very materialistic person.I care about money very much. But I would rather make the money myself than inherit it etc.
Also just because I'm materialistic it doesn't mean I'm not interested in spiritual.
As I said, I love to read about religion and astrology and even some other things (numerology, astral projection, lucid dreaming etc.) it's just that I don't believe in all that.

Cause Saturn rules your 12th house, that is a higher spiritual house amount the 4th and 8th house when it is positive very powerful, and good at practicing mysticism. Since the ruler of this house is in the 9th house, it rules your higher mind, from higher education and ability to understand spiritual, religious, philosophical text. Saturn as I said is a planet of intense, serious planet. You have it in the house of such a philological, religious house and Saturn rules your 12th of course you like these kind of topics.

Your approach to these topics is in Saturian way in Scorpio you just love these topics due to natal attractive of the sign of Scorpio into the secret knowledge. You won't believe in it easily, as you said you are interested but remain skeptical.

I also have Saturn in Scorpio but in the 2nd house, it rules my 5th house, traditionally my 6th house also. Pluto is also in the 2nd house, ruling my Scorpio Sun and Mercury in the 3rd house. Mars in 1st ruler of the 8th sextile Mercury ruler of the 1st and 10th, Mercury sextile 5th house Moon, as long as I could remember, Sun rules my 12th house in Leo. I have always been interested on these topics.

Kirka
08-13-2013, 06:56 PM
I would define a materialist as someone who cares of earthly goods as to posses them as many as they can and enjoy them as much as they can.
For me being a materialist doesn't necessarily or automatically mean one doesn't care about anything else in this world. It is not a matter of if this/then... for me at least :)

poyi
08-13-2013, 06:59 PM
So then for the purposes of this discussion at any rate, how would one define 'materialistic'? :smile:


Saturn is the natural ruler of the 10th house, Capricorn, the house of status, public reputation, public image and power, the Goat on the Mountain top, the planet of ambition, the power to control, the lord of the material world, the time, space, structure, restriction of the system, the lord of the system.

In the house of 9th is relatively elevated in the chart, it is above the horizon; it is known as one's external image/life.

Zarathu
08-13-2013, 07:01 PM
I would define a materialist as someone who cares of earthly goods as to posses them as many as they can and enjoy them as much as they can.
For me being a materialist doesn't necessarily or automatically mean one doesn't care about anything else in this world. It is not a matter of if this/then... for me at least :)

Materialism is a loaded value laden word often used by those who think that they have superior spiritual views.

This is not to assume it was used in this way here. But it doesn't have negative connotations to those who are materialists, only to those who strive not to be, as if that was somehow a high-falutin' better way to be.

And besides that its not an all or none thing. One person's materialist is another person's ascetic. I know many people who would consider my life style pretty ascetic. When you are very very wealthy, people who are just OK are considered to ascetics.

JUPITERASC
08-13-2013, 08:08 PM
Yer I totally know what you mean. In term of past, present and future are link in a piece of thread. We can predict the future due to the future is already happened before and right now. Time is an illusion itself.

I just can't help myself to think people do have a choice and they CAN make some changes and have a bit of control in life. As you said the choice was also already given. It is a very sad and it is fact of life really. But that's the whole point of astrology, the skill gives you the ability to see time in all directions. Rather you can see time in all directions that is also already given to you not even due to hard work of your own afford as your character of being hard work on studying books also already had happened.

The light of stars we see now was from the past and will continue to be seen by future generations, when the star will also die was also already destined. Life is a story of misery. We can choose to struggle and stay believed ONLY within the resources and pre-set environment the Cosmo gave us.

Anyway, I still believe in Free Will, I know I have no control in life, not to the extent I wished I could have, even the choice of being able to see the positivity in life was also given based on how strong your Jupiter and 11th house as for example.

So the goal is to find a way out to get out of the System.

And I think there is way out.

Otherwise, I will question God one day for sure for making me living like a robot.
Yesterday was Erwin Schrodinger’s 126th birthday
http://0.tqn.com/d/chemistry/1/0/o/i/1/chemcat_shrodinger.jpg

Is your existence dependent on the existence of an observer who observes you....

....which would ultimately be God...

...or do you exist in an infinite number of multiverses?

INTERVIEW
- Part 5 of 6 -
Regina Campbell from the Conscious Media Network interviews
Dr. Michio Kaku
on
STRING FIELD THEORY AND THE MULTIVERSE

Dr. Kaku speaks about what creates our reality :smile:

the Deity
String Field Theory
the Universe
parallel dimensons
alternate universes
and the Multiverse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWOUPSy269w

poyi
08-13-2013, 08:35 PM
Yesterday was Erwin Schrodinger’s 126th birthday
http://0.tqn.com/d/chemistry/1/0/o/i/1/chemcat_shrodinger.jpg

Is your existence dependent on the existence of an observer who observes you....

....which would ultimately be God...

...or do you exist in an infinite number of multiverses?

INTERVIEW
- Part 5 of 6 -
Regina Campbell from the Conscious Media Network interviews
Dr. Michio Kaku
on
STRING FIELD THEORY AND THE MULTIVERSE

Dr. Kaku speaks about what creates our reality :smile:

the Deity
String Field Theory
the Universe
parallel dimensons
alternate universes
and the Multiverse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWOUPSy269w

I love the cat photo A LOT! I love CAT!

I like the video as well. The tingling part of the video I got the idea when I was knitting my blanket last year. The pattern, the sequence, each stitch form the sequences, then the building blocks of the blanket to make bigger block and eventually the thread.

If you made mistake a while back of the pattern then the entire pattern is WRONG!!! You will have to take the whole thing off and start over again. That's how I got the time, space theory and the weather pattern also! And a knitted blanket is a 3D object with two sides of co-existing patterns etc etc.

BobZemco
08-14-2013, 01:05 AM
Bob how did you came up with this theory? Where do u base this?

Have you studied the Ancient and Classical Worlds?

Sumer & Akkad were like Rome...the Light of Civilization. Once Sumer & Akkad were over-run and destroyed, that task fell to the Hittite Kingdom, and they did well. However, the Hittite Kingdom was over-run and destroyed circa 1900 BCE when attacked by three disparate groups: the Celts, the Slavs and a third group that is believed to be either Gothic or Germanic tribes.

The World effectively enters the Dark Ages: knowledge is lost, learning is slowed or corrupted and civilization degenerates.

The World starts to climb out of the hole it dug itself into, but then Aristotle rears his ugly head...

Earth is the Center of the Universe
Earth is the Center of the Solar System
Earth is Flat
Species are propagated through spontaneous regeneration
Disease is caused by Coloured Gases

...and so on and so on (to name but a few).

All of those concepts/ideas espoused by Aristotle contradict prior knowledge.

Fast forward about 8 centuries...well, in the interim, you had some major developments. Between 312 and 315, Emperor Constantine issues a series of edicts legalizing the practice of Christianity. Then ~382 Emperor Theodosius outlaws all religions except Christianity, making Christianity the de facto religion in the Empire. And of course the Western Roman Empire is then over-run and destroyed, leaving only the Eastern Empire.

So, John the Bishop of Rome --- a foul vile man -- approaches Emperor Justinian with forged documents claiming that Emperor Constantine had designated the Bishop of Rome --- the position, not necessarily John himself -- to be the head of the entire Church, and not just that, but to have awesome power and authority that was on a par with, if not exceeding the Emperor's powers.

Justinian falls for the fraud, he grants John the Bishop of Rome extraordinary powers in 533 CE creating the first pope, and John immediately declares all dissenters to his authority as heretics and executes them, then starts in on the Manichean Christians and the Nestorian Christians.

And even that would have been tolerable, except John also adopts all of Aristotle's views as Canon Law and Dogma.

That stifles learning for the next 1,000 years, because anyone seeking the Truth would instantly realize that the Truth contradicts the doctrines of the Church, and so those people were savagely tortured and brutally murdered for making ridiculous claims like "the Earth revolves around the Sun," "the Earth is a sphere," and so on.

Seriously...the fact that the Catholic Church ultimately relented and dropped the silly "diseases are caused by Coloured Gases" in favor of "diseases are caused by an imbalance of Coloured Biles in the body" was a freaking banner day for the whole world....well, the whole Christian world.

During the time of the Plagues, Cairo was the largest city in the West with more than 1 Million people, yet oddly only a few thousand died. Why?

Because Muslims could reject the idiotic "diseases are caused by Coloured Gases" and "diseases are caused by an imbalance of Coloured Biles in the body" the infallible popes claimed were god's Truths in favor of common sense, which is that diseases are caused by foreign entities that enter the body....and so Muslims understood that simple things like washing your hands, eliminating sewage and garbage helps keep diseases under control.

In 3000 BCE, Sumerians and Akkadians were performing surgeries on people, and the patients lived....fast forward to the US Civil War where half the patients died...and then fast forward to 1901 when President McKinley is shot...he survived the gun-shot....but the idiots were too stupid to realize that washing the hands was important for infection control...so McKinley dies of infection.

Science, math, learning and inventions all increase dramatically once the power of the Papacy is weakened in the early 1700s, and then it doubles once the US and Britain destroy the Pope's navies, Napoleon destroys the Papal Army, over-runs the Vatican, frees the slaves, imprisons the Pope, and then the Holy Roman Empire is destroyed.

The most conservative estimates put the murder of women by the Catholic Church at 8+ Million. Some estimates are as high as 14 Million.

And why were those women savagely murdered by the Church?

Because --- according to the Church --- women are inferior to men, and so if a woman possessed intelligence, then it can only be because she is a witch, or she is in league with Satan or having sex with Satan....and so women were burned at the stake for the crime of having intelligence.

Anyway, the point is that being intelligent between 500 and 1700 could cost you your life....I mean for crying out loud, it was only recently in the last few years that the Church finally admitted the Galileo was right.

BobZemco
08-14-2013, 01:14 AM
Are all traditional tropical astrologers determinists who advocate[this is a change from the original word which was eschew, a slip of the hand in typing, see reason for editing below] any semblance of FREE WILL, or is this just Bob's view?

Free Will was a concept created by the Roman Catholic Church to give people the illusion that they had some control over their lives.

Bonatti didn't give a **** what any pope said, but later Italian, French, Germans (if not under the Hapsburg Empire then under the Holy Roman Empire) and others suffering under the Imperial Roman Catholic Church were forced to accept the Church's Doctrine of Free Will under penalty of torture, dismemberment and death....Lily not so much, since he was in England.

If you read Placidus, Morin and others, you'll see cryptic statements and comments about the total lack of Free Will, or they'll make word-plays and jabs at the Church about the Doctrine of Free Will.

Many astrologers through the tradition have taken a sort of Stoic approach with their philosophy which, in brief, suggests that there is a Fate that will happen, and that our exercise of free will (not a term they would all have used as it's particularly post-christian) is in how we respond and accept that Fate.

So for Valens and those of a similar attitude, the gift of astrology is in being able to better see the workings of Fate and not be deceived by Hope - though of course one of the ways that Fate is worked out is by deceiving us through our (false) hopes.

Still others, like Ptolemy, suggest a decree of a kind of fatedness and prediction is there so as to settle or prepare the soul for what is to come.

Still others through the ages show varying degrees application of will and fatalism. You have to think of these things not as astrological techniques of course but as valid philosophies common through time and still common today even if the "we all have loads of free will" philosophy is one that is currently en vogue. We tend to think of our own particular philosophies as 'truths' but of course they are anything but.

And I'm not really interested in hearing from a lot of old traditionalists who were not traditional when they were writing.

What I want to know is whether Bob's deterministic view(I'd actually like to hear from Bob) of NO FREE WILL is typical of the current brand of what in Western Astrology are called "traditionalists".

No Free Will. As I pointed out, Free Will is an invention of the Roman Catholic Church --- who also claimed that Earth was Flat, the Center of the Solar System, the Center of the Universe etc, and who claimed women were witches and burned them at the stake.

The point being that if you're going to use a doctrine created by the Church, then you're not exactly standing on solid ground here.

Why was Astrology created?

To know the Fates of Kings and Kingdoms...and for no other reason.

The fact that Astrology may be applicable to ordinary people does not alter the Reality™ that Astrology was created to know the Fates of Kings and Kingdoms.

To know Fate requires the ability to predict....and look at how many predictive techniques are available to Traditional Astrologers.

The primary function of Astrology is to know the Future, not sit around and fawn over "exceptional beauty."

To know the Future requires the Future to be preordained.....by what? Who cares....it doesn't really matter, and it matters even less since neither your life nor anyone else's life will be substantially impacted or altered.

Modern Tropical Astrology generally admits to Free Will.

So?

Admission does not equate to Reality™, and neither does belief.

As I said....you cannot at once claim people have Free Will, and then look at past Transits, Progressions and Solar Arcs to see what happened to the Native, since the whole premise is absurd and illogical.

If people have Free Will, then there is no point in examine the past, since it would be impossible to learn anything, and yet that is exactly what Modern Astrology teaches, to examine the past to see how Planets operate in the charts.

A murderer is not committed to any sin, he can kill as he pleased it was his natural impulse.

That is exactly right.

People are what they are --- for good or bad; better or worse --- and what they are is clearly defined in their Natal Charts, and there is no changing that ever....unless the Chart actually says there's a possibility of change, and unless the Profections and Revolutions come together to make that change happen, then it will not happen.

There will be no value of Laws and Orders. The entire moral systems across all ethic cultures that made us human is worthless and stupid. So how could we maintain the safety for the society then?

Morals and Ethics are based on common sense and logic.

I can have the women and children in my village out working the fields and tending the animals, while the men circle the village to defend against an attack by the people of your village....where the women and children in are out working the fields and tending the animals, while the men circle your village to defend against an attack....

...or, we could just apply some common sense and logic, coming to agree that it is not profitable to keep attacking and raiding each other's villages, and that allows each of us to have some men and women in the fields, while other men and women instruct and educate the children, while still other men and women produce goods and provide services that benefit people.

I mean you can't exactly weave cloth or make furniture while you're standing guard, right?

Bob is not the Ambassador To Traditional Astrology.

And for that I am very grateful.

Maybe we should define what makes one a traditionalist as you word it. What makes one a 'traditionalist'?

I think Ben Dykes summed it up best.

A Traditional Astrologer rejects the Outer Planets solely on the basis of Mathematics and Science, since the Outer Planets do not Cast Light or Cast Rays, and that has been mathematically and scientifically proven.

A Traditional Astrologer also rejects the Asteroids, Planetoids, Centaurs and the so-called Hypothetical Planets for the exact same reasons, based on Math & Science.

I am not a fan of Frawley, and have no qualms about Professional Malice towards him, but Frawley does succinctly prove the folly and uselessness of the Outers, the Asteroids, Planetoids and Centuars in a manner more diplomatically than I ever could.

Traditional Astrologers are Objective, while Modern Astrologers are Subjective.

As Dykes says:

"Many modern astrologers abuse Greek mythology in ways that would make a psychoanalyst shudder, inviting other astrologers to use personal mental associations and feelings."

Traditional Astrologers Objectively delineate the 10th House: either the Native will reach a certain level of eminence within their nationality, ethnic group, culture and peer group, or they will not....and if so, then whether such standing, reputation or fortune is lasting or fleeting.

Modern Astrologers Subjectively delineate the 10th House, flattering the Native by telling him/her how they "feel" about their career and fame and fortune....which is of no real value, just like telling a Native how they "feel" about wealth is of no practical value....and I won't even get into the part about it being impossible to know what the Native "feels."

That would just be a few things that define real Traditional Astrologers.



I do not know very much about the writings or the people who inhabit the astrology that basically disavows anything that happened much past the Death of William Lilly in 1681.

I am not a fan of Silly Lilly.

Yes, I do recommend people read Lilly when first learning Traditional, but that is due entirely to the fact that Lilly is one of the most readily accessible texts on Earth.

And what exactly did happen after Lilly died?

Absolutely nothing of any consequence.

What, the Outer Planets? They have no bearing on Natal Charts. The math and science proves that. The burden of proof is upon you to show they do, not me to show they do not. What does it say when Modern Astrologers abandon the ruler-ship schemes for the Outers?

Asteroids? Centaurs? Planetoids? Those things have no bearing.

The Hypotheicals? How embarrassing is that?

There have been no new developments in Astrology. There have been plenty of re-discoveries of Traditional Methods, but nothing new.

Please don't claim Ivy Goldbrick-Frankenstein came up with something new with her Critical Degrees nonsense....I already debunked that....it is not new, it is merely a rehash of Moon Mansion and Azieme, Dark, Empty and Pitted Degrees dishonestly repackaged to look like something new.

So what you are saying is that the concept of total Fate is pretty much BOB not traditional astrology. That's good to hear. Bob hasn't has much complentary to say about any astrologer since maybe Al-Biruni in 1029 CE.

Yes... this is good to hear.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't just me. As I pointed out earlier, the only reason Free Will exists is because the Roman Catholic Church invented it....just like they invented "Purgatory."

And also because astrologers from Bonatti up to the time of Morin were forced under penalty of death to accept the Doctrine of Free Will as espoused by the Roman Catholic Church, so any argument that does not acknowledge that is disingenuous.

And I cannot help but note the inherent contradiction....Accept the Doctrine of Free Will....or be burned at the stake as an Heretic.

Yeah, Free Willy.

Years ago when we had a discussion on Free Will here on this forum, I challenged the Free Will Groupies to prove it....and they all ran away.

So.....for those who believe in Free Will astrologically.....prove it....now we'll watch history repeat itself.

This is not me talking....this is Benjamin Dykes...

"Since modern astrology tends to place a high value on the freedom of individuals to make arbitrary or unconditioned choices (especially in the name of personal evolution), its practitioners will naturally go through several stages in rejecting medieval astrology.

First, prediction is agreed to be possible but distasteful.

Then it is something that may be done but only if it is couched in terms of learning, growth, transformation, and subjective attitudes.

Then it is something that ought not to be done.

Then it is something that cannot be done."

Prediction is the raison d'etre for Astrology.

As an astrologer, your job is to tell people what will happen to them in the Future, so they can be prepared to deal with it, not tell them about "exceptional beauty" or past lives or karmic debt.

A lot of Greeks frequent this forum, or at least that was true in the past, and years ago, I used to drop hints left and right to them about emigrating and relocating to avoid the coming economic problems. And even though I did that, I did it with the understanding that they would not emigrate or relocated unless their Natal Chart specifically said they would, and even then, they wouldn't until those things come together in Profections and Revolutions, because people have no Free Will.

What did I used to ask people here? How's your eyesight? "What? Wh-wh-what do you mean? How do you know about that?" 'Cause, it was preordained and written all over your chart.

Those Planets you see in Azieme Degrees in people's charts, it is not a question of if they will be struck down by disease or illness....it is a question of when,...... because it has been preordained from birth.

No Free Will. Ask Christopher Reeves. Oh, wait, he's dead. That's in his chart. Even if I told you he was going to fall off a horse and break his neck, it wouldn't have mattered. "I'll kidnap him and hold him hostage for 24 hours until the danger passes." No, you won't....because you kidnapping him is not in your chart, and him being kidnapped is not in his chart.

You don't have to like it....I certainly don't.....but whether or not I or anyone else likes it or doesn't like it does not alter the Reality™ that it is what it is.

If people truly had Free Will, then we'd all be Shiny Happy People with beautiful, uh, wait, "exceptionally beautiful" spouses and adorable genius children and wealth and health and everything we ever wanted....but that is not how it works.

BobZemco
08-14-2013, 01:19 AM
Your argument is entirely non-sequitor - there is no extension of logic that dictates that if Free Will does not exist that the logical conclusion is to kill people.

Exactly. Moral and Ethics are based on common sense and logic.

I just believed in Free Will is the essence of being a human that made us different to animals and plants.

You're not different than animals and plants.

You're born...you live...you die...that's the program.....for all living things on this Earth and in this Universe.

Did you know that Oxygen dies?

Yes, Oxygen dies, just like Carbon dies.

A group of Elements known as radio-isotopes die by decay....half-life....sometimes by ejecting a neutron, or proton, or electron (a beta particle) and sometimes through spontaneous fission.

Some of these radio-isotopes exist for only fractions of a second, some for a few seconds, others for hours or days, and still other for months and years, reaching into the Billions of years (for something like U238).

It was always thought that Oxygen and other natural Elements were stable....but that is now known to no longer be true....the half-life for Oxygen is somewhere in the 10 Billion to 12 Billion year range. It suggests that ultimately, everything in the Universe will break down into Hydrogen atoms.

I believed in we should all be responsible of our choices in life.

You're confusing the issue.

No one is saying that people should not be be held accountable or responsible for their actions.....quite the contrary, they certainly should be.

I was being sarcastic :lol: using extreme case to describe if we have no Free Will, no one should blame anyone anything cause he or she was born that way.

That is not an excuse.

My philosophy is that I welcome and assist productive people....for those who are non-productive....I'm willing to tolerate them....but for those people who are counter-productive, who cost society, who harm society, I have no use for them and will not tolerate them.

If it would be up to me, I'd bestow upon the counter-productive the honorary title of Space Explorer, load them onto a space-ship, and send them and the space-ship far, far away from Earth and this Solar System....and if they died out in space....oh, well.

I believed in only tendency in the natal chart due to genetic make up, physical or mental illness that comes with it or past life karma.....

There's no such thing as "past life karma."

That would be something else that differentiates Traditional Astrologers from Modern Astrologers......Traditional do not believe in reincarnation, karma, past lives, Indigo Children or any other nonsense.....and if they do, then they have the common sense, morality, ethics, courtesy and respect to keep it to themselves and not harm their clients with it.

I said about believing in Free Will, my meaning as we have choices both good and evil. It is up to us based on our conscience to choose the path of our life. But when a person doesn't believe in Free Will then he or she would be living like a robot based on his or her natal programmed.

But that's exactly what people are.....programmed from the moment they take their first breath, for good or bad; better or worse.

You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it as Reality™.

I just can't help myself to think people do have a choice and they CAN make some changes and have a bit of control in life.

They do not. And when you have lived long enough on this Earth, or read enough Charts, then you will come to understand why they do not.

Yes yes, this is good ol' Saturn in the Ninth, a quite unfortunate placement in a chart. The sign of a materialist.

It can also severely hinder any educational effort beyond secondary school. What is your highest level of education if I may ask?

Uh....page 227, Lesson 14: Saturn, Saturn in the Houses, The Only Way To Learn Astrology, Marion D. March & Joan McEvers, Tenth Printing, 1989...

SATURN IN THE NINTH HOUSE

Orthodox in your approach, you distrust new ideas, yet you are earnest and desire to know everything thoroughly. Saturn here stabilizes your superconscious faculties; you can be a good teacher, professor, scientist or metaphysician. You could also be successful in publishing, politics public or preaching. Although foreign countries and foreigners fascinate you, your relationships with them might not be good. In youth your philosophies are dogmatic, but with age you become wiser and more tolerant. You have a whimsical sense of humor, and your mind is deep, meditative and reflecting. With challenging aspects, you may be fanatic, intolerant and have a poor relationship with your in-laws. You may avoid foreign travel, or overdo it and make too many long distance trips or moves.

That is Modern Astrology, and it completely contradicts everything you said....well done.

tsmall
08-14-2013, 02:24 AM
What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart?

Gemini

Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign?

Not a one.

What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?

Libra, 1st sign, 12th house, retrograde, combust and applying via retrogradation to Jupiter (setting into the beams), who is clinging to the ASC. Jupiter and Mercury butt heads constantly. I was raised a Methodist Christian, and it took me until about 7 years of age to figure out that what I was learning in Sunday school didn't really make sense.

I think it's pretty cool that it took two pages of posts for this to turn into a discussion of fate vs. free will. I figured it would have happened sooner.

I'm a liberal. I believe in justice and equality and fairness. And when I first started studying astrology I was determined that I wanted to be a modern astrologer. After all (apologies to the traditional rules for mentioning outer planets) I have Uranus conjunct my Sun, and parallel in both lattitude and declanation. :devil:

It took me less than two months to figure out that I didn't think modern astrolgy was a fit for me. It also took me less than two months to figure out that I really have no free will. Why?

Because of other people. Their choices affect mine to the extent that my free will is seriously impinged or limited...or even non existant.

Go ask the children and teachers of Sandy Hook whether or not they had free will on Dec. 14, 2012.

An important thing to note...determinism (fate) does not absolve responsibility.

dr. farr
08-14-2013, 03:14 AM
I believe that when nearing the level of adeptship humans have free will: free will-freedom from determinism-is the goal of hermetic (and other) spiritual paths...

(my 9th house "profile"-Taurus 9th cusp, positing Mercury and the Sun)

DreamingTheSeas
08-14-2013, 05:21 AM
Have you ever seen/study a chart and discovered that the person slipped some way of it?
(Like riches when chart not promises-health or death when chart not promises e.t.c. )

eternalautumn
08-14-2013, 05:41 AM
Excellent. I'm glad this thread has flourished.

I should add that my father is Baptist and my mother Catholic, and I was "raised in the church". Twice a week for eight years. Thankfully it was a non-denominational, almost New Age-y congregation.

hope you are still around EA!

Here I am.

While I am not involved in regular religion, I am a Quaker, which is really a kind of institutionalized mysticism. For me this means that I am really a Taoist who exists in a Quaker setting.

I would love to attend a Quaker service one day. Would you care to give more detail on your experience? +1 for Taoism.

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be."

i dont think the chart of anyone can answer this, it is beyond the chart, a chart may indicate trends and ways of trends, but never to a specific place

Let's just agree to disagree.

There was another thread in the not too distant past that focused on the Ninth house.

You can go here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58841) for the information contained in that thread.

Thanks for the link, buddy.

In the divisional (ie harmonic) methods of Vedic astrology, an entire varga (divisional chart) is allocated for the delineation of the religious/spiritual relations affinities, proclivities and other factors involving the native: this is called the Vimsamsa chart (varga) and is the D20 chart of the natal (ie it is the 20th harmonic chart)...

Doctor, can you prescribe a detailed webpage explaining harmonics?

That's a corrupted view.

Thank you for the elucidating post. What exactly would you look at in a chart to determine religion (and the associated concepts) for a native?

Of course one could look at spirituality as a journey, religion as a journey from individuality to universality, life as a road upon which the soul travels toward the Infinite...9th house = travels, journeys, yes: ALL kinds of them!

:)

I'm extremely spiritual, especially in the woods or at the sea.

Nature has a way of bringing that out. Although I've never been on the ocean, I love water, and I consider the forest my true home.

No, I'm way too intelligent for that, and besides....my standard of ethics and morals are superior to any god-thing that has ever been alleged to exist.

I for one am a huge fan of your cockiness; keep it up. However, you should explain exactly what definition of god you are too intelligent for, and remember that god, if it exists or not, is separate from the moral traditions that may have developed around the worship of "a" god.

Interesting.

Is it?

Often smoothly. It is a tool, and like all tools it has specific uses, I utilise that tool for often very practical purposes according to my understanding of the world around me as dictated by my philosophy.

Very smooth. I like tools too.

Regarding impermanence :smile:

The world itself
is impermanent
one's understanding of the world around one
as dictated by one's philosophy
necessarily is also impermanent

Ah, but the impermanence of the understanding of the impermanence of the world is also impermanent.

Are all traditional tropical astrologers determinists who advocate[this is a change from the original word which was eschew, a slip of the hand in typing, see reason for editing below] any semblance of FREE WILL, or is this just Bob's view?

I think eschew was closer to what you meant; advocate would mean that "traditional" astrologers are totally pro-free will.

We tend to think of our own particular philosophies as 'truths' but of course they are anything but.

Do you believe in objective, universal Truth?

All Knowing Oracle

I would happily kneel at Bob's feet for the chance to be blessed by his wisdom. I do, however, agree that he is not "the spokesperson". This is simply a case of clashing personalities; I have a feeling Bob might be much too frictional for Zarathu's taste.

Paul, I would love to hear more from you, about anything.

So what you are saying is that the concept of total Fate is pretty much BOB not traditional astrology. That's good to hear. Bob hasn't has much complentary to say about any astrologer since maybe Al-Biruni in 1029 CE.

Yes... this is good to hear.

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying you can't demand BobZemco speak for other people. Fate and determinism is pretty much the backbone of astrology.

Can you hear me now? :)

Non semper ea sunt quae videntur :smile: Things are not always what they appear to be

You're so timely! I love it.

Materialism is a loaded value laden word often used by those who think that they have superior spiritual views.

This is not to assume it was used in this way here. But it doesn't have negative connotations to those who are materialists, only to those who strive not to be, as if that was somehow a high-falutin' better way to be.

I don't know, guy, kinda seems like you're implying that it was used that way.

Is your existence dependent on the existence of an observer who observes you....

....which would ultimately be God...


Hmmm...

Prediction is the raison d'etre for Astrology.

I don't understand how people don't understand this.

You don't have to like it....I certainly don't.....but whether or not I or anyone else likes it or doesn't like it does not alter the Reality™ that it is what it is.

Indeed. It is what it is.

Shiny Happy People

But, I like shiny! :(

You're born...you live...you die...that's the program.....for all living things on this Earth and in this Universe.

Everything dies. Everything burns.

I think it's pretty cool that it took two pages of posts for this to turn into a discussion of fate vs. free will. I figured it would have happened sooner.

I know, right? Sometimes the forum surprises me.

An important thing to note...determinism (fate) does not absolve responsibility.

Agreed. Why do people think it does?

You are on a Traditional Astrology thread and you believe in Free Will? :sideways:

I didn't create this thread in the Traditional Astrology board, it was moved here. I'm interested in everyone's contribution. But thanks.

I believe that when nearing the level of adeptship humans have free will: free will-freedom from determinism-is the goal of hermetic (and other) spiritual paths...

Any chance you can go into more detail? I'm sorry for never being satisfied.

Paul_
08-14-2013, 08:04 AM
Saturn is the natural ruler of the 10th house, Capricorn, the house of status, public reputation, public image and power, the Goat on the Mountain top, the planet of ambition, the power to control, the lord of the material world, the time, space, structure, restriction of the system, the lord of the system.

In the house of 9th is relatively elevated in the chart, it is above the horizon; it is known as one's external image/life.

Whatever about using Pluto on the traditional astrology forums do we have to use 'natural rulership' as well? Poyi are you aware that this idea of natural rulership is utterly absent in the entire tradition of astrology and only rears its head originally as mnemonic device as an aid for teaching absolute beginners to astrology? It's grown since then, but it's absolutely not traditional.

poyi
08-14-2013, 08:32 AM
Whatever about using Pluto on the traditional astrology forums do we have to use 'natural rulership' as well? Poyi are you aware that this idea of natural rulership is utterly absent in the entire tradition of astrology and only rears its head originally as mnemonic device as an aid for teaching absolute beginners to astrology? It's grown since then, but it's absolutely not traditional.

The original thread was not posted under traditional forum.

I use whatever that works and accurate. You should show me the way you read a chart and predict events as example of teaching traditional astrology. I use traditional astrology as I say again if anything give me result I will use. I think that all clients expect any astrologer to present their works.

I am really looking forward to see real life examples of how you give me accurate readings to show me your points. I am very open minded and have respect of traditional astrology.

Paul_
08-14-2013, 08:51 AM
The original thread was not posted under traditional forum.

I use whatever that works and accurate. You should show me the way you read a chart and predict events as example of teaching traditional astrology. I use traditional astrology as I say again if anything give me result I will use. I think that all clients expect any astrologer to present their works.

I am really looking forward to see real life examples of how you give me accurate readings to show me your points. I am very open minded and have respect of traditional astrology.

I see, so it was incorrect of the moderators to post it here?

You really don't need me to show you how to do traditional astrology, you can learn it through books, some common sense and some practice. It would be impossible for me to show you all the techniques I use to do astrology. Also, to be extra clear on this issue (circling back to the point I made to Zarathu), I do not consider myself a traditional astrologer. I recognise that we need to sometimes clarify what kinds of techniques we use, and in that respect I do use many traditional techniques. But I am also alive and well here today and living in the culture and climate and zeitgeist of today's world, which, obviously, means I'm very much a modern individual who uses traditional techniques. But that shouldn't be confused for not using any other techniques. I also use some modern techniques as well. Like you, I use whatever works. But I really do not buy into the way that we often make 'camps' for people to sit in - if you use that technique then you must be a Traditional Astrologer, and if you use those ones then you must be a Modern Astrologer - and never the two shall meet!

Instead I use astrology. It is a tool. It is a pretty amazing tool, a swiss army knife if you like, but just a tool.

A brief example is when a woman came to me asking would she ever see her ex again (having not seen him in about a year and him having left the country and her having no way of contacting him or even being sure if she ever wanted to). I took it as a horary question. I then confirmed with her nativity that it was scripted there and using a combination of a rough timing from the horary coupled with her profections, her transits and a couple of other methods, I worked out a likely weekend that it was the most likely to happen. I gave that weekend in August as my answer (it was March at the time, a couple of years ago). That weekend came, he knocked on the door. But in the course of the conversation I also paid attention to some of the more psychological reasons she was asking the question, using traditional techniques and psychological principles and some modern techniques like elemental imbalances (which for now I'll see as discrete from anything traditional though obviously they are simplified from a root in Temperament theory).

I couldn't possibly explain all the techniques I used here. If a 'modern astrologer' was sat beside me they'd recognise some of what I did, and be ignorant of other parts of what I did. If a 'traditional astrologer', to keep with the terms, sat beside me they'd agree with a lot of it and raise suspicion or a question mark over others. Some would also try to define me as a "horary astrologer" because for some, horary and natal are worlds apart.

For me, I just do astrology. I couldn't explain it all to you because it represents almost the sum of what I know of astrology today. As a tip, I would recommend you learn annual profections, solar returns, the doctrine of sect, essential dignity and transits -as understood through the tradition, and not as understood today which is that if it's not a social or outer planet then it's not worth looking at. It amazes me continuously how many people ignore the transits of Mars and Venus and focus continually on the slow pondering movements of Pluto or the other outers, watching as it barely moves sweet f**k all through the zodiac and then attribute almost everything to it irrespective of orb. "I had a car accident, and uranus was conjunct my ascendant...by 10 degrees, astrology is amazing". Totally ignoring that Mars makes a partile conjunction or square to the Lord of the ascendant or plays some other relevant planet by profection or nativity. It happens time and again. The traditional planets are ignored by transit in favour of the ones that barely move at all. Or worse, they'll talk talk about natural rulerships or houses and so on which is a bit of an irritant to me because many talk about it in traditional terms like "traditionally Saturn naturally rules the 10th" - that's what I brought it up here, as I'm relatively new to the forum as a whole and not sure what passes for 'tradition' here. For some, Charles Carter or Dane Rhudyar is traditional.

Then we have people questioning the entire concept of transits or of astrology altogether when Pluto crosses their ascendant with the ever increasing drum roll only for...nothing at all to happen. Then their world gets thrown upside down when something like Mercury stations and retrogrades back into Saturn or something. I suspect this is because a lot of modern astrology puts you at the very centre of the universe and many hold notions that they are psychologically aware or conscious or spiritually evolved or whatever term they couch it in - with that in mind, something as little and mundane as mars couldn't possibly account for the huge momentous and life shattering events that befall someone as brilliant as themselves, it must be something bigger, something more momentous, it must be something as grand as the outer planets. Not little old mars.

poyi
08-14-2013, 09:19 AM
I know what you mean about the outer. They will only be accurate when it is in exact aspect and in angular close to the axis or in the cusp in less than 1orb.

I do find them both work very well. I always look at both each time when I look at the chart and they say the same thing. At the end is the matter of personal taste and if you use this tool without too much struggles.

I am happy with my own learning so far. I predicted my own new relationship, up and down of it, accident, workplace events etc.

One major blockage of learning traditional astrology is the language. English is my second language. Is very difficult for me to read classic text. I do have Arabic parts, William Lilly collections, Primary direction in my little library. It is sad that I don't understand their language. I will have to really get into the language and know the mediveal culture well to use it without too much struggle.

Back into the topic of this thread, 9th is the house of the higher mind that also rules the ability to understand advance knowledge and classic text. The down side is English and the culture are not part of my natural background. I suppose in time if I do try harder I will.

JUPITERASC
08-14-2013, 11:45 AM
Ah, but the impermanence of the understanding of the impermanence of the world is also impermanent
And so on ad infinitum

Do you believe in objective, universal Truth?
Implies necessity for belief in objective, universal Truth
Implies then objective, universal Truth is not amenable to 'proof by reason'

I would happily kneel at Bob's feet for the chance to be blessed by his wisdom. I do, however, agree that he is not "the spokesperson". This is simply a case of clashing personalities; I have a feeling Bob might be much too frictional for Zarathu's taste
....although, remember that friction involves the interaction of two

Paul, I would love to hear more from you, about anything
Likewise.

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying you can't demand BobZemco speak for other people. Fate and determinism is pretty much the backbone of astrology

Can you hear me now? :)
One hears when one listens

I didn't create this thread in the Traditional Astrology board, it was moved here. I'm interested in everyone's contribution. But thanks.

So the thread was moved to the Traditional Astrology subforum from elsewhere
The original thread was not posted under traditional forum.
I see, so it was incorrect of the moderators to post it here?.
Apparently not
it's clear that the reason the thread was moved is that the OP commences with the words... 'according to traditional astrology'

It's possible then that a member reading that reference to traditional astrology felt that the thread was requesting SOLELY the traditional perspective and in that case the thread would indeed have been wrongly located...
i.e.
According to traditional astrology the ninth house rules religion and beliefs of a higher order.

What are your religious/spiritual/philosophical views? Do you believe in god? How does astrology fit into your system of belief?

What is the ninth sign from the Ascendant in your chart? Are any of the traditional seven planets placed in this sign? What signs/houses do they rule in your chart, and are any planets there? What sign and house is the traditional domicile ruler* located in?

I follow no religion or philosophy but am deeply interested in them all. I believe in god as far as I believe that it seems logical that the universe has a source, and that we could call that source god, but anything beyond that is improvisation. I believe in astrology because I believe that everything in our universe has a common source, and is therefore connected and unified, and that therefore looking to the macrocosm can inform us of the microcosm. It is in our nature to find patterns and I believe this is important in and of itself.

[moderator note - moved thread to traditional forum as discussion requests traditional perspective]

A traveling 9th House thread - how appropriate :smile:

eternalautumn
08-14-2013, 03:54 PM
And so on ad infinitumForever and ever, amen.

Implies necessity for belief in objective, universal Truth
Implies then objective, universal Truth is not amenable to 'proof by reason'Go on...

....although, remember that friction involves the interaction of twoSo it does. This forum needs some lighthearted lubricant. I think things would go much smoother if everyone didn't take themselves so seriously.

One hears when one listensTrue. "...seek and ye shall find..."

So the thread was moved to the Traditional Astrology subforum from elsewhere
Apparently not
it's clear that the reason the thread was moved is that the OP commences with the words... 'according to traditional astrology'

It's possible then that a member reading that reference to traditional astrology felt that the thread was requesting SOLELY the traditional perspective and in that case the thread would indeed have been wrongly located...

Yes, but no matter if you use traditional or modern methods, everyone has a ninth house and a ninth sign. As long as people are posting their placements I don't mind a modern interpretation. I meant this more as a survey of what beliefs and placements we shared, not a "traditional only" discussion. But, I don't have the energy to deal with the moderators, and really, the thread is fine here. I was hoping to get a varied response, and so far I have. It's weird to me though that you can't even mention the phrase "traditional astrology" without having a thread moved. The whole reason the Traditional board was created is that anyone who wanted to talk about it was being attacked by other members who believed that modern methods were necessary and sufficient. I think a lot can be accomplished by including a traditional perspective in one's assessment, but that can't work here if we're only allowed to talk about it on one board. Oh well.


A traveling 9th House thread - how appropriate :smile:Indeed. :)

eternalautumn
08-14-2013, 04:09 PM
One major blockage of learning traditional astrology is the language. English is my second language. Is very difficult for me to read classic text. I do have Arabic parts, William Lilly collections, Primary direction in my little library. It is sad that I don't understand their language. I will have to really get into the language and know the mediveal culture well to use it without too much struggle.

Yes, this is going to be difficult, but so worth it. I wish you the best of luck in your studies. You'll probably emerge at the other end with a better grasp of the language than some native speakers. :)

As an aside, just to be clear, I didn't start this thread assuming that religion is the only ninth house topic; I was just curious about that in particular. I suppose the third house might hold some signification for the day-to-day, mundane elements of religious experience, but I'm not sure. I'd be happy with this thread expanding to discuss religion in the chart in general. Thanks everyone for contributing so far.

nasrudin
08-14-2013, 04:37 PM
I've posted this months ago
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58824

JUPITERASC
08-14-2013, 10:21 PM
Forever and ever, amen
Not exactly.
I meant ad infinitum
as in Beginningless Time :smile:


.....no matter if you use traditional or modern methods, everyone has a ninth house and a ninth sign.

As long as people are posting their placements I don't mind a modern interpretation. I meant this more as a survey of what beliefs and placements we shared, not a "traditional only" discussion.

But, I don't have the energy to deal with the moderators, and really, the thread is fine here. I was hoping to get a varied response, and so far I have.

It's weird to me though that you can't even mention the phrase "traditional astrology" without having a thread moved. The whole reason the Traditional board was created is that anyone who wanted to talk about it was being attacked by other members who believed that modern methods were necessary and sufficient.

I think a lot can be accomplished by including a traditional perspective in one's assessment, but that can't work here if we're only allowed to talk about it on one board. Oh well.
C'est la vie...

JUPITERASC
08-14-2013, 10:43 PM
I've posted this months ago
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58824
Thanks nasrudin :smile:
This is a neat thread. JupiterASC, a lot, a LOT, of the Persian astrologers wrote about religion and Saturn - Abu Ma'shar and ibn Ezra come instantly to mind.

There's universal agreement that Saturn in Aquarius rules Judaism, and ibn Ezra wrote about how Saturn in 9 won't harm the faith of a Jew, but could be deleterious to the faith of others (he didn't go into detail on planetary dignification that I'm aware of), because it's a malefic, though I suspect that a dignified Saturn would likely be a different story for most folks and a horrible Saturn would not be so great even if you're Jewish.

There's also agreement that Venus rules Islam, Venus in Scorpio, specifically.

With Christianity it gets fuzzy - there are proponents for Jupiter, Mercury, and the Sun as its planetary ruler, all of which make sense.

A good Jupiter would help with any faith, though, as it's the greater benefic and rules matters of religion and philosophy overall - provided Jupiter is in decent zodiacal state.

Do either kai or nasrudin have prophetic dreams, or true dreams? That's another hallmark of dignified planets or a good Jupiter in/ruling 9. Sahl is generally my go-to guy for 'is the dream true?' question in horary, and he wrote quite a bit about prophetic dreams.

Almost nobody talks about the significance of religion in astrology anymore - so thanks, guys!

rox
08-14-2013, 11:05 PM
I believe that when nearing the level of adeptship humans have free will: free will-freedom from determinism-is the goal of hermetic (and other) spiritual paths...

(my 9th house "profile"-Taurus 9th cusp, positing Mercury and the Sun)

I am not sure I understand how you believe in free-will as in freedom of determinism. We are limited: not only physically, mentally, electromagnetically, socially etc. To some extent and with help of the pre-determined stellar configuration in our birth charts, we can free ourselves - again, to some extent - of some of the physical limitations, as practitioners of yoga and other disciplines are able to do. But, again, even that path is cast upon birth, determined, laid-out, programmed to be. We may strive to free ourselves of limitations - as most of us do, during our lives, when we fight fears, disabilities and such - but to be able to free ourselves from determinism is pure utopia, to me.

eternalautumn
08-15-2013, 12:36 AM
Do either kai or nasrudin have prophetic dreams, or true dreams? That's another hallmark of dignified planets or a good Jupiter in/ruling 9.

I had these often as a child, not so much now. :(

dr. farr
08-15-2013, 04:00 AM
- but to be able to free ourselves from determinism is pure utopia, to me.


Here's yet another nickname for me to add to the several* I've been given over the years-Dr. UTOPIA:w00t:!!


(*Dr Anarchy, Dr Specious, Fixed Star Farr, Dr Whole Sign, Dragon's Tail Farr, etc)

Carolus Optimus
08-16-2013, 05:04 AM
I have a Master in Economy why?

Thanks, I was only curious as this information gives a clue about how Saturn might work in your horoscope. Curiosity and subsequent information gathering is a base requirement for an astrologer.:wink:


Normally Saturn means restriction yet intense and seriousness opposite energy of the House of Jupiter.


You seem to know the right thing poyi.

Non semper ea sunt quae videntur :smile: Things are not always what they appear to be

This is obvious, but I would like to point out that I never stated that Kirka is not an educated person, I've only asked a question about it as in my experience Saturn in the Ninth could pose an obstacle to education.

I've seen people with this configuration dropping out of the education system early. Others managed to get quite impressive degrees, but were slowed by various obstacles. Still others were just diligent students who took their school responsibilities seriously and got degrees in Saturnian professions.


I have to admit I am a very materialistic person.I care about money very much. But I would rather make the money myself than inherit it etc.
Also just because I'm materialistic it doesn't mean I'm not interested in spiritual.


As I've said before, and now I see in a complete agreement with you, Saturn in the Ninth is the sign of a materialist. Of course this phenomenon can take different shapes and it can be difficult to spot for the untrained eye. Materialism and disbelief can hide behind a facade of religiousness for example, a quite typical Saturn in the Ninth house scenario.



Uh....page 227, Lesson 14: Saturn, Saturn in the Houses, The Only Way To Learn Astrology, Marion D. March & Joan McEvers, Tenth Printing, 1989...

That is Modern Astrology, and it completely contradicts everything you said....well done.

Well, I do not completely understand the purpose of this piece of communication, but I try to answer it.

I don't consider myself an expert astrologer - I am very far from that - but during the years I spent with studying this art I learned the following simple rule: If real life events or phenomena contradict the short descriptions presented in astrology cookbook sections, then ignore the latter. Believe your own eyes and own experience.

This does not imply that all cookbook sections in all astrology books are useless. Absolutely not, but they are very limited guidelines at best. They won't cover a great many situations. Also there are other problems as well, for example writers underestimating Saturn, like showing the effects of this planet in a favourable light, mentioning only the best results...easy Saturn.

Ok, let's speak about contradictions. I stated that Saturn in the Ninth is the sign of a materialistic person, based on the very own words of Kirka and my observations. Is there any contradiction? I don't think so. Kirka's beliefs are completely consistent with my experience about this planet placement.

In fact the March & McEvers book contradicts Kirka. Please check it out.

Orthodox in your approach, you distrust new ideas, yet you are earnest and desire to know everything thoroughly. Saturn here stabilizes your superconscious faculties; you can be a good teacher, professor, scientist or metaphysician. You could also be successful in publishing, politics public or preaching. Although foreign countries and foreigners fascinate you, your relationships with them might not be good. In youth your philosophies are dogmatic, but with age you become wiser and more tolerant. You have a whimsical sense of humor, and your mind is deep, meditative and reflecting. With challenging aspects, you may be fanatic, intolerant and have a poor relationship with your in-laws. You may avoid foreign travel, or overdo it and make too many long distance trips or moves.

So, Saturn in the Ninth can be a good teacher, preacher or metaphysician. Good to know. In some cases this might happen - strictly within the confines of Saturn's capabilities - but what about the others?

Like this:


I don't believe in god, or astrology or anything I guess. But I love to read about it all. I consider myself an atheist although I would really like if I could believe in god or something if it makes any sense :)

So for all I know when you die that's it, you get buried and you rot.

What has in common with any valid spirituality, or metaphysics the notion that human beings = dead matter? That God doesn't exist? Is this thought produced by a "deep, meditative, reflecting mind"? Where is the most important attribute of the teacher - the enlightening quality? Where is the Ninth House, the House of God? Oh, it is blocked. Blocked by Saturn, the planet of gross materialism and anti-spiritual tendencies.

Again, I believe in Kirka's statements, he is real, not a section from a cookbook and represents the real thing, Saturn in the Ninth House. To what extent, this should be subject to further investigation, but the main elements are there. Regrettably, the March & McEvers description is not too useful in this case, so it must be ignored.

Kirka
08-18-2013, 03:23 PM
Hi
I'm replaying because I see that you're using my example of Saturn to validate your opinions and believes considering astrology. First I agree with some things you said and disagree with others, I'll try to explain this. I apologize in advance for my English, if some of my thoughts seem incoherent, it's because it's not my mother tongue.

this information gives a clue about how Saturn might work in your horoscope.
I am new to astrology but it seems to me that to understand behavior of any planet, aspect or house in natal chart you need to have an insight to the natal chart as a whole. Saying your Saturn is in house nb.9,4,12 etc makes you be like this and that equals reading Sun sign horoscopes in newspapers and believing in it because you happened to be that Sun sign. It's an incomplete picture.

Others managed to get degrees, but were slowed by various obstacles.
This is me, I got my degree but it took me more time than I anticipated. Also, if it means anything, in the middle of my studies I realized that this studies weren't really for me, but I stuck through it just because I don't like leaving unfinished business. And because I thought this degree would be much more profitable than what I wanted to study. :biggrin:

degrees in Saturnian professions.

What are Saturnian degrees? Do other planets have their professions and degrees?

Materialism and disbelief can hide behind a facade of religiousness for example, a quite typical Saturn in the Ninth house scenario.
If you're already taking me as an example I have to repeat what I said before.
I do not believe (openly - not hiding my disbelief from anyone) but I really would like to (if I could only make myself believe). That is why I'm interested in religious, spiritual themes, to try to find something that will make me believe, and as a matter of fact that's the same reason why I'm interested in astrology.
So, unlike you said, my Saturn is not hiding my lack of beliefs instead it's quite interested in acquiring some kind of explanation of our existence, our purpose, our end etc (which I would qualify as spiritual and religious or philosophical believes). It is not a facade it's a genuine interest.

If real life events or phenomena contradict the short descriptions presented in astrology cookbook sections, then ignore the latter.Believe your own eyes and own experience.

This does not imply that all cookbook sections in all astrology books are useless. Absolutely not, but they are very limited guidelines at best.
And I completely agree with you, the only question is how many of real life examples did you have so that you could place your statements as if they were absolute and utter truths. Sure, you have my example, and I really do agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything you said applies. Also you only know one aspect of my natal, Saturn in Scorpio in 9th. Don't you think that my belief system is at least influenced by Saturn making some aspects if not anything else but the sole fact that it's situated in 9th house.
So, when all this is considered your opinion might count as mush as a short description from an "Learn astrology fast" book with limited guidelines.

In fact the March & McEvers book contradicts Kirka. Please check it out.


So, Saturn in the Ninth can be a good teacher, preacher or metaphysician. Good to know. In some cases this might happen - strictly within the confines of Saturn's capabilities - but what about the others?
I am not a teacher nor I wish to be one, but I've find myself in numerous situations where I had to teach someone something (specifically a language).
I was said to be quite good at teaching because I was systematic, patient and I didn't rush.

What has in common with any valid spirituality, or metaphysics the notion that human beings = dead matter? That God doesn't exist? Is this thought produced by a "deep, meditative, reflecting mind"? Where is the most important attribute of the teacher - the enlightening quality?
So you are saying that deep reflective mind can only come to conclusion that God does exist and that people unlike, lets say, animals or plants :rolleyes: , do not decompose after they die. Interesting, I would love to live in your world. It would be a little discriminatory since non-religious people are obviously not capable of being enlightened, but hey, there is no perfect world :biggrin:

Where is the Ninth House, the House of God? Oh, it is blocked. Blocked by Saturn, the planet of gross materialism and anti-spiritual tendencies.
Again, I am not anti-spiritual, I'm just hard to make believe.

poyi
08-18-2013, 04:24 PM
I don't think Saturn in 9th house is non spiritual nor non believer. They just have serious attitude that religion and spirituality do not come lightheartedly. They are more skeptical in term of what they choose to believe and their will of investigation is intense and heavily since Saturn the planet of constriction it actually enhancing the energy toward the centre (inward) instead of expanding (outward) the power running deep inside, in the sign of scoprio the intensity and will of knowing the truth is obsessive again digging deep, penetrating in between the truth and false.

I am speaking as a person living with Saturn in Scorpio. Though it is in my 2nd house but it rules my 5th and 6th in tranditional rulership.

JUPITERASC
08-18-2013, 05:52 PM
....I am new to astrology but it seems to me that to understand behavior of any planet, aspect or house in natal chart you need to have an insight to the natal chart as a whole.

Saying your Saturn is in house nb.9,4,12 etc makes you be like this and that equals reading Sun sign horoscopes in newspapers and believing in it because you happened to be that Sun sign.

It's an incomplete picture.

And I completely agree with you, the only question is how many of real life examples did you have so that you could place your statements as if they were absolute and utter truths. Sure, you have my example, and I really do agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything you said applies. Also you only know one aspect of my natal, Saturn in Scorpio in 9th. Don't you think that my belief system is at least influenced by Saturn making some aspects if not anything else but the sole fact that it's situated in 9th house.

So, when all this is considered your opinion might count as mush as a short description from an "Learn astrology fast" book with limited guidelines
Thanks for these useful comments Kirka :smile:

With these ideas in mind then poyi, when you said
I don't think Saturn in 9th house is non spiritual nor non believer. They just have serious attitude that religion and spirituality do not come lightheartedly. They are more skeptical in term of what they choose to believe and their will of investigation is intense and heavily since Saturn the planet of constriction it actually enhancing the energy toward the center (inward) instead of expanding (outward) the power running deep inside, in the sign of Scorpio the intensity and will of knowing the truth is obsessive again digging deep, penetrating in between the truth and false.

I am speaking as a person living with Saturn in Scorpio. Though it is in my 2nd house but it rules my 5th and 6th in traditional rulership.
Did you yet factor in the house and sign location of your natal Mars - as well as aspects of your natal Mars?

poyi
08-18-2013, 06:02 PM
With these ideas in mind then poyi, when you said

Did you yet factor in the house and sign location of your natal Mars - as well as aspects of your natal Mars?

My natal Mars is Virgo in first house, Mars' own house of Aries, trine Moon in Capricorn in 5th house, exaltation of Mars . Both Moon and Mars sextile Mercury in Scorpio in 3rd, Mercury's own house of Gemini, so Virgo Mars is the exaltation of Mercury. Mercury rules Virgo Ascendant and MC.

I do like my own chart. The planets get along well. I was told once to enjoy whatever I am doing as hobby, I will be benefit from it.

Edited: I also have very serious ideal about children and what a parent should be if I do become a mother one day. To most people they will think that I reject the idea of being parent but in fact, I have such a heavy, serious ideal that I WILL NOT let myself to take it lightly. I understand the value of parenthood and what a proper parent should provide and sacrifice, this awareness is so heavy that I do not take it lightly.

Kirka
08-18-2013, 09:06 PM
[QUOTE=JUPITERASC;494588]Thanks for these useful comments Kirka :smile:


This sends such a sarcastically mocking vibe :D

JUPITERASC
08-18-2013, 09:11 PM
This sends such a sarcastically mocking vibe :D?????????????????

that was certainly not my intention....

JMO good illustration of how easily one is misunderstood :smile:

Kirka
08-18-2013, 09:24 PM
?????????????????

that was certainly not my intention....

JMO good illustration of how easily one is misunderstood :smile:

I thought it was funny, like in "thank you for stating the obvious" kind of way.
Forget it, it's just me :D

JUPITERASC
08-18-2013, 09:34 PM
I thought it was funny, like in "thank you for stating the obvious" kind of way.
Forget it, it's just me :D
It's ok Kirka - misunderstandings are common online - we're all from different parts of the world :smile:

*emma*
08-18-2013, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kirka
I don't believe in god, or astrology or anything I guess. But I love to read about it all. I consider myself an atheist although I would really like if I could believe in god or something if it makes any sense

So for all I know when you die that's it, you get buried and you rot.
---------


There is nothing to say *GOD* is not the ultimate *humans* can be/ aspire to/ know so, so *he/she* is our own creation possibly

Exept for Bas astrology couple pages back, saying our creator wears a smile...chicken and egg thing.....how can anything not created have a creator? perhaps God means hope...every parent has a smile at their newborn and hope...and all the world is perfect at each new birth.....so again maybe we are the smiling God after all

Big questions, peace...btw, we do die and rot!
and when I am rotting underground I will not be thinking of reincarnation or God! Thats for the living.

i am like you now, atheist but more agnostic i suppose...look back in history and see a plethora of human error violence etc...has anything changed? No

people are killing each other day to day, govts kill people on a whim, wheres God? Long way away...ie from their understanding and conscience

PS believing in astrology is a bit different.....its got rules parameters and something u can work with....end of the day its a learning tool, got history and substance, its an honest unbiased ideology....nothing to do with using it as a crutch though for not living your life...

*emma*
08-19-2013, 12:17 AM
It's ok Kirka - misunderstandings are common online - we're all from different parts of the world :smile:

Aint thatthe truth...not just from different parts of the world, but from different families communities ideologies etc...www certainly is the big jungle of meeting of different, or similar minds.....

A mega serious shift in the world in last twenty odd years at least for those who participate

Wasnt that long ago when the bible and all periphery was all the news and truth and horses brought your mail six weeks later LooooL

mind YOU some things have not changed since roman times......you still get sad blokes beating each other up in cage fights like some kind of gladiator is reborn scenarios....haha

*emma*
08-19-2013, 12:24 AM
getting back to the topic, ninth house and religion.....i have taurus on the 9th house...i dont believe in bulls....though i laugh when they attack spaniards in the spectator boxes when their skewered LooooL,not sure what it means, its empty too

Ruler in libra though...not that bothered.....except.......moon conjunct jupiter in sagitarius trine uranus in 12th so yes bothered about religion and ideas.....interested and curious and poked around many..even studied it...officially.......end of the day everyone has to make their own minds up because that can only be what matters for every person, their own mind....their own freedom....it can never come from outside but only from within...after all...thats what jesus said innit??? Wise bloke wasnt he?

he taught, he was a teacher, thats why so many hated him...and crucified him.. he preached the truth for his time...nothings changed...he was a whistleblower....LooooL

Carolus Optimus
08-19-2013, 03:57 AM
Hi
I'm replaying because I see that you're using my example of Saturn to validate your opinions and believes considering astrology.

Your example is a good example. It supports perfectly what I've learned about Saturn in the Ninth so far.

First I agree with some things you said and disagree with others

Be my guest.

I apologize in advance for my English, if some of my thoughts seem incoherent, it's because it's not my mother tongue.

It is not mine either, we are on equal terms.

I am new to astrology but it seems to me that to understand behavior of any planet, aspect or house in natal chart you need to have an insight to the natal chart as a whole. Saying your Saturn is in house nb.9,4,12 etc makes you be like this and that equals reading Sun sign horoscopes in newspapers and believing in it because you happened to be that Sun sign. It's an incomplete picture.

Obviously it is incomplete, but the whole has its building bits and these can provide lots of useful information. So it can be quite rewarding to focus attention on a section or small part of the chart, or a single planet. The Sun's position alone provides some key insights about the person. Incomplete, indeed, but still important.

Saturn's placement is no different. It is only a building block, but believe me, a crucially significant one.

This is me, I got my degree but it took me more time than I anticipated. Also, if it means anything, in the middle of my studies I realized that this studies weren't really for me, but I stuck through it just because I don't like leaving unfinished business. And because I thought this degree would be much more profitable than what I wanted to study. :biggrin:

Thank you for the useful information. The Saturnian blockage will manifest somehow in the House it occupies, and I have seen people in the same situation as you. I know a Saturn-in-the-Ninth person who studies at a prestigious university with the goal of getting an impressive degree, the only thing is that she progresses too slowly, her last semester approaching, still lots of unfinished exams looming ahead, it is very likely that she can only continue with her studies with a special permit.

What are Saturnian degrees? Do other planets have their professions and degrees?

Every profession is ruled by a planet. Saturn rules the ones connected to agriculture or mining for example, carpenters, Mars soldiers, Venus painters, photographers and so on.


So, unlike you said, my Saturn is not hiding my lack of beliefs instead it's quite interested in acquiring some kind of explanation of our existence, our purpose, our end etc (which I would qualify as spiritual and religious or philosophical believes). It is not a facade it's a genuine interest.

That part of my previous post was not about you, but another person I know. A religious bigot and hypocrite. Guess in which House is his Saturn.

And I completely agree with you, the only question is how many of real life examples did you have so that you could place your statements as if they were absolute and utter truths.

I've met only a few examples until now, but I observed them well.

I hope I didn't offend you Kirka, with my "absolute truths", this was absolutely not my intention.

Sure, you have my example, and I really do agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything you said applies.

Still, it is good to see that my observations about Saturn in the Ninth were mainly correct. But this is not enough, I will continue and get as much examples as I can.

Also you only know one aspect of my natal, Saturn in Scorpio in 9th. Don't you think that my belief system is at least influenced by Saturn making some aspects if not anything else but the sole fact that it's situated in 9th house.

Of course I do. Other factors always count as you make your way toward getting the big picture. But I think a planet's presence at a given point is the strongest "aspect" of them all. Aspects can influence somewhat Saturn, but he is still Saturn.

So, when all this is considered your opinion might count as mush as a short description from an "Learn astrology fast" book with limited guidelines.

Yes it might. But short or long description does not matter, ultimately I am interested in learning astrology. Does an astrological statement work in real life? Yes or not? This is all that counts.

So you are saying that deep reflective mind can only come to conclusion that God does exist and that people unlike, lets say, animals or plants :rolleyes: , do not decompose after they die. Interesting, I would love to live in your world. It would be a little discriminatory since non-religious people are obviously not capable of being enlightened, but hey, there is no perfect world :biggrin:

Okay, I see this is the funny part.

So for all I know when you die that's it, you get buried and you rot.

Animals, plants and humans do decompose after they die, that is a fact. But as a statement presented together with the denial of God is a blunt declaration that nothing exists outside matter, and human beings are just that. When you die, that's it!

This is completely against what the Ninth House represents. It is the denial of the main thing! There is God and human beings have an immortal soul that lives on after physical death. But for Saturn this simple truth can be difficult to comprehend.

And no, I am not picking at you Kirka. Peace.:smile:

Thank you again for the valuable input about your experience with the placement in question.

BobZemco
08-19-2013, 05:11 AM
Have you ever seen/study a chart and discovered that the person slipped some way of it?
(Like riches when chart not promises-health or death when chart not promises e.t.c. )

Nope.

It is possible for people to be suddenly "elevated" in some way, shape or form. This elevation could be in the form of sudden wealth, a change in socio-economic class -- from Lower Middle Class to Middle Upper Class or form Lower Class to wealth social elite, honors or awards in one's professional field, local fame, regional fame, national fame and global fame, or a combination of any of those....and the chart will show that.

It's also possible to show a fall or being cast down in wealth or financial security, socio-economic class, profession or renown.

I've tried to explain that in times past, but there's no point in it. If people refuse to learn the meanings of the Signs and Houses --- all of them -- not much I can do.

Suffice to say the 12th House signifies the time in the womb, not psychic spiritual death or anything else.

Thank you for the elucidating post.

Well, I did a really poor job of getting the idea across.

The point I was trying to make is that the 9th House is Travel & Religion.

That should be suspect to anyone who has studied History (or Herstory).

The 9th House was originally Travel & Wisdom (or perhaps Travel & Knowledge). Wisdom is gained through Experience, and Experience is gained through Travel....so it was thousands of years ago....so it is today, since nothing has changed.

Astrology was developed during a time of Wisdom & Knowledge....Religion came much later.

Up until about 200 years, everyone traveled --often great distances ---to a cultural center for knowledge and study.

Because instruction in Arts & Sciences was conducted priests, as religion evolved, religious institutions, orders and sects took over the duties of providing education and training, up until governments realized education is a great way to brain-wash or indoctrinate people and how stupid they'd been..and then governments took over the duty of education.

Anyway, Bonatti is one place you can see a corrupted view, as he calls it the Lot of Pilgrimage, while older Muslim authorities called it the Lot of Travel.

Splitting hairs? Nope. Travel is travel, but pilgrimage connotes a duty or obligation, often associated with rituals or religions. Such duties and obligations did not exist at the time Astrology was developed...even less so since the whole purpose of Astrology in the first place is to determine the Fate of Kings and Kingdoms.

The very idea that Religion or the House of God would be a Cadent House....and therefore lacking in power.....is heretical.

Obviously Religion is an afterthought that was crow-barred into the 9th House, although I don't necessarily believe it to be incorrect.

What exactly would you look at in a chart to determine religion (and the associated concepts) for a native?

That depends.

If you were Ptolemy, you wouldn't look at anything.

Ptolemy doesn't mention religion or associate it with the 9th House. In fact, Ptolemy associates all Cadent Houses with Travel and none of the Travel is related to Religion or religious pilgrimages.

Zael says...

"The 9th domicile is cadent from the Ascendant. And it signifies foreign travels and journeys and the culture of deity, and all house of religion; philosophy and the foresight of all matters; the wisdom of the stars, and divination; letters and legates and legations, or rumors; dreams; faith; divine wisdom; and sanctity and religion; and all past and receding things; and a man put down from his honor or work; and matters of the future world and foreknowledge of things that will be."

That Ptolemy does not mention Religion should be of no surprise, since Dorotheus does not mention it either, and Masha-allah skims right over it as being unimportant. Abu Bakr doesn't address it either....ooops.

The confusion in delineation stems largely from astrological ignorance.

You delineate the 9th House for Travel, but you delineate the 9th and 3rd Houses...together....for matters of Science, Knowledge and Faith.

And the reason is because the House opposite the 9th House is Law.

For those who did not hear me the first time, I said, "The House opposite the 9th House is Law."

At no time ever did I say the 3rd House was Law. I mention that so people don't get the wrong idea.

Sign Types are important. Fixed, Moveable and Common, plus Sign Style -- Double-bodied, Violent, Human, Violent Human et al, give clues to how steadfast one is in their faith, ideology or belief systems, and how they comport with Law.

And the of course, the Planets ruling the 9th and 3rd, and their locations and if necessary, their Dispositors, and any aspects to the 9th and 3rd Rulers, and then Planets in the 9th or 3rd and aspects to those Planets.

There is also a Lot of Faith, but it is disputed. Moon to Mercury is not disputed, but being cast from the Ascendant or from Saturn is.

I think it best to either use Whole Sign for the 9th/3rd and Science, Faith and Law, or at least look at the configuration in Whole Sign, so that you can see if Planets are Advancing or Retreating on the Angles, since Advancing/Retreating on the MC would be very important here, even more so if the MC actually fell into 9th Sign.

Nature has a way of bringing that out. Although I've never been on the ocean, I love water, and I consider the forest my true home.

You don't have to do that, but you do have to do whatever works best for you.

It is now recognized in Western Medicine that Spirituality is an important component of wellness, and so it is necessary to treat Mind, Body & Spirit...uh....and that is the American Veteran's Administration hospitals talking there....yeah, how about that.

I do Tai Chi and meditate, but others can listen to symphony, or sounds of nature or tribal/ethnic music or cook or whatever floats their boat. I was playing with horses the other day, brushing them down and making their coats all shiny. It was good.

I for one am a huge fan of your cockiness; keep it up.

Duly noted (and appreciated).

However, you should explain exactly what definition of god you are too intelligent for, and remember that god, if it exists or not, is separate from the moral traditions that may have developed around the worship of "a" god.

Yahweh: If you marry a woman after you brutally rape and sodomize her, then it really isn't rape after all....so rape can be fun and profitable, especially if her daddy is rich...

And what's this...

2 Kings 2:23 Elijah went up from there to Bethel. As he was traveling up the road, some young boys came out of the city and made fun of him, saying, “Go on up, baldy! Go on up, baldy!” 2:24 When he turned around and saw them, he called the judgment of Jesus down on them. Two female bears came out of the woods and ripped forty-two of the boys to pieces.

...and the moral of that story is don't ever laugh at bald people...but you can ban midgets from the Temple.

One cannot help reading the Old and New Testaments without coming to the conclusion that they were written entirely by men who owned slaves or had positions of power and authority....for the express purpose of maintaining slaves, and power and authority.

I mean if you were a slave-owning male, or a a male in a position of power or authority, then the Bible is a great thing to thump, but if you're a woman, or a slave (or worse than that both) or you had no power and was oppressed, then it isn't something you'd really want.

This is my favorite...

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by the appointment of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and those who resist will incur judgment.

According to that, Jesus appointed Hitler to power, so those who waged war against Hitler resisted the authority of Jesus and incurred judgment.

I would happily kneel at Bob's feet for the chance to be blessed by his wisdom.

The greatest morsel of wisdom I could ever impart upon you is to stay out of trees.....especially when flying, and even more so when flying in rotary wing aircraft.

But, I like shiny!

Perhaps, but not when it's shiny because it's glowing with radiation.

Implies necessity for belief in objective, universal Truth Implies then objective, universal Truth is not amenable to 'proof by reason'

Do you believe in objective, universal Truth?

If you had asked me that back in, oh, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago or so, I would have laughed.

But since then, I've come to see there is an Objective Universal Truth.

A traveling 9th House thread - how appropriate :smile:

This is obvious, but I would like to point out that I never stated that Kirka is not an educated person, I've only asked a question about it as in my experience Saturn in the Ninth could pose an obstacle to education.

I've seen people with this configuration dropping out of the education system early. Others managed to get quite impressive degrees, but were slowed by various obstacles. Still others were just diligent students who took their school responsibilities seriously and got degrees in Saturnian professions.

Uh-huh. And why would that be?

I didn't realize it, but people seem to be really confused on the concept of Malefics and Benefics.

The Benefics -- Jupiter and Venus -- confer good when they are Fortunate and well-placed in the chart. Things come easy. Saturn and Mars are Malefics, but, when Fortunate and well-placed, they grant good things, too....it's just that those good things are often delayed or fraught with obstacles and other difficulties.

As I've said before, and now I see in a complete agreement with you, Saturn in the Ninth is the sign of a materialist.

Materialist? You mean like Bob Geldof? Or do you mean a materialist like Karen Silkwood? Oh, maybe you mean like Imanuel Kant? No? Then you must mean like John Hinckley? Okay, maybe you mean a materialist like Rosemary Clooney who established many chariable trusts and organizations?

Well, I do not completely understand the purpose of this piece of communication, but I try to answer it.

The purpose was to prove you wrong.

I don't consider myself an expert astrologer - I am very far from that - but during the years I spent with studying this art I learned the following simple rule: If real life events or phenomena contradict the short descriptions presented in astrology cookbook sections, then ignore the latter. Believe your own eyes and own experience.

That would be the wrong approach, leading to erroneous conclusions.

As Traditionalists, we do not use "cook-book Astrology"....we leave that to the ignorant.

This does not imply that all cookbook sections in all astrology books are useless. Absolutely not, but they are very limited guidelines at best. They won't cover a great many situations. Also there are other problems as well, for example writers underestimating Saturn, like showing the effects of this planet in a favourable light, mentioning only the best results...easy Saturn.

That would be an excellent criticism of Modern Astrology, but not of Traditional Astrology.

The flaw in your argument is that you are focused on a single Planet, namely Saturn. That is magnificent, but it is not Astrology.

Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Hugh Hefner, Leona Helmsley, Rupert Murdock, Ted Turner, John Rockefeller, Ross Pierot, Donald Trump and thousands of others...would you consider them to be materialists?

Because none of them have Saturn in the 9th House.

What about Leopold III of Belgium? He invaded the Congo because....he wasn't materialist? He doesn't have Saturn in the 9th.

Marie-Antoinette? She doesn't have a 9th House Saturn either.

Ok, let's speak about contradictions. I stated that Saturn in the Ninth is the sign of a materialistic person, based on the very own words of Kirka and my observations. Is there any contradiction? I don't think so. Kirka's beliefs are completely consistent with my experience about this planet placement.

Your experience is incredibly limited, and based on a flawed understanding of astrological principles.

For example, you have either failed or refused to consider other over-riding factors in the chart that would outweigh a 9th House Saturn.

In fact the March & McEvers book contradicts Kirka. Please check it out.

I posted it....it contradicts you...you suggested Kirka might not have an education, yet the quote from March & McEvers refutes your claim...very obviously, people with a Saturn 9th House can be educated.

Furthermore, the quote makes no mention of materialism, and in Traditional Astrology, it is not possible to justify Saturn in the 9th as materialistic.

I am new to astrology but it seems to me that to understand behavior of any planet, aspect or house in natal chart you need to have an insight to the natal chart as a whole.

Holy cow! I just fell off my chair. That is absolutely correct.

With your attitude, you just leaped over the top of 90% of the people on this forum who cannot grasp the very simple concept you explained.

Saying your Saturn is in house nb.9,4,12 etc makes you be like this and that equals reading Sun sign horoscopes in newspapers and believing in it because you happened to be that Sun sign. It's an incomplete picture.

That is exactly correct. Good for you.

This is me, I got my degree but it took me more time than I anticipated. Also, if it means anything, in the middle of my studies I realized that this studies weren't really for me, but I stuck through it just because I don't like leaving unfinished business.

That would be characteristic of a Saturn that was in fairly good shape in the Chart. It would of course also depend on whether or not Saturn is applying to the Ascending Degree, or has separated, plus the Houses that Saturn rules in the Chart, plus any Planets in those Houses, and any Planets applying in aspect to Saturn.

What are Saturnian degrees? Do other planets have their professions and degrees?

There are professions associated with Planets, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

So, unlike you said, my Saturn is not hiding my lack of beliefs instead it's quite interested in acquiring some kind of explanation of our existence, our purpose, our end etc (which I would qualify as spiritual and religious or philosophical believes). It is not a facade it's a genuine interest.

Correct, he gave a bad misinterpretation.

With a Scorpio 9th, that means you have a Taurus 3rd, so it would be necessary to examine Venus, Mars and Saturn, plus any Planets in applying aspects to Venus, Mars or Saturn, or any Planets to whom Venus and Mars might be applying (and any Planets in the 3rd House).

DreamingTheSeas
08-19-2013, 10:31 AM
Nope.

It is possible for people to be suddenly "elevated" in some way, shape or form. This elevation could be in the form of sudden wealth, a change in socio-economic class -- from Lower Middle Class to Middle Upper Class or form Lower Class to wealth social elite, honors or awards in one's professional field, local fame, regional fame, national fame and global fame, or a combination of any of those....and the chart will show that.

It's also possible to show a fall or being cast down in wealth or financial security, socio-economic class, profession or renown.

I've tried to explain that in times past, but there's no point in it. If people refuse to learn the meanings of the Signs and Houses --- all of them -- not much I can do.

Suffice to say the 12th House signifies the time in the womb, not psychic spiritual death or anything else.



....

The old days here in Greece people were saying that the first night a person was born 3 Moires were coming and visit.
The 3 Moires were Klotho, Lahesi and Atropos (Κλωθώ, Λάχεση και Άτροπος).
Klotho spins the thread of life, Lahesi splits the lots of luck or misfortune and Atropos cuts the thread of life without the slightest hesitation.

Το πεπρωμένο φυγείν αδύνατον (Its impossible to go away from your destiny)

DreamingTheSeas
08-19-2013, 10:36 AM
Nope.

...

Suffice to say the 12th House signifies the time in the womb, not psychic spiritual death or anything else.


....

So 12th house shows how was the time of our time in our mothers womb? If so then my Scorpio 12th house with ruler is there fits me. My mother and father were having hard times they were argued very much and my mother was unhappy.

The_Saturnian
08-19-2013, 11:38 AM
I have An Aquarian Jupiter Rx in 9th house.

When I was a child I was absolutely fascinated with God and in particular his various incarnation he has taken from time to time to help free humanity from slavery, poverty, pain and has shown man the path of righteousness (Dharma). I can still remember that religion meant a lot to me when I was a child and at one point I was so hooked to his stories that I would actually think of him more, more than almost anything else during the day. I would sing hymns in my head of him, think of his image, glory and his serpent bed (I'm a Hindu by faith so I use often think of the Lord Vishnu) that he rests on.

The unusual thing is, is that I now don't think of him as often and don't carry out as long a prayer anymore despite the fact that I'm not even working at the moment. I feel as if I've somewhat drifted away from religion and more towards the materialistic world (not a good sign at all, but couldn't help it). And when I look back I think this slow and gradual change occurred around 2009ish and really became noticeable in the year of my solar progression from Leo to Virgo. Could this progression have caused it? Who knows...

I never previously had an interest in other faiths, but since the year of my progression learning about other cultures, faiths and traditions has suddenly struck me. Though I haven't had much of chance yet to learn the urge is there and is quite strong to meet and greet and learn of others' faiths and beliefs. (Strange this is coming from stubborn Sun sign Leo, hence why I came to the conclusion that it must be my progression that has changed me.) In fact I'll go so far as to say that I've even began to find women of other faiths/cultures attractive when they talk of their various ways of life and traditions.

Though this change had struck me quite hard in the face when I first noticed it, I can now definitely say that I welcome it with open arms and am loving it day by day even more :D. I really love this new spiritual feeling...It's totally out of the world.

Kirka
08-19-2013, 11:50 AM
Obviously it is incomplete, but the whole has its building bits and these can provide lots of useful information. So it can be quite rewarding to focus attention on a section or small part of the chart, or a single planet. The Sun's position alone provides some key insights about the person. Incomplete, indeed, but still important.

Saturn's placement is no different. It is only a building block, but believe me, a crucially significant one.

What I wanted to say is that while you can point out general characteristics of, as you said these building blocks, you still can not state for sure that those characteristics make certain individual some way.
Example 1.
Saturn in general means some restrictions. 9th house is house of higher mind. And as separate elements they have those meanings.
So what you're saying is Saturn in 9th consequently means a restriction in 9th house i.e. no spirituality or philosophical qualities in a person, poor education level etc.
Example 2.
Saturn in general also means authority and stability. So instead the above stated, it could also mean that one holds authority in some fields of the higher mind, maybe one's a philosopher or a priest. Also one may just be reluctant to abandon their set of beliefs, no matter what they are.

But I think it's rarely that simple. When looking things separately like that people tend to see only the links they want to see. If you consider Saturn in 9th materialistic etc. that's the only thing you're going to see because it somehow lives up to your apprehension and expectations of Saturn behavior in 9th.


I hope I didn't offend you Kirka, with my "absolute truths", this was absolutely not my intention.

Not at all, I'm sorry if my post sounded a bit harsh.
But what I wrote above is why I said that opinions can not be presented as truths when they're based only on one element.

Animals, plants and humans do decompose after they die, that is a fact. But as a statement presented together with the denial of God is a blunt declaration that nothing exists outside matter, and human beings are just that. When you die, that's it!
It may be a blunt declaration but it's my belief. I don't think it should be upsetting to anyone who's a true believer. I'm not going to infect anyone with my impure thoughts :biggrin:
My opinion in this matter doesn't interfere with my ability to let others believe what they want to believe in and it doesn't limit me in taking part in discussions regarding spiritual entities or God.
At last, maybe the way I presented my beliefs so bluntly as you said, has nothing to do with my beliefs and Saturn, but with the way I express myself, maybe it's Mercury's fault :biggrin:

This is completely against what the Ninth House represents. It is the denial of the main thing! There is God and human beings have an immortal soul that lives on after physical death.
I don't remember I ever read that 9th house means God is real and humans live after they die. :unsure:
It's probably your belief which you transferred to interpretation of 9th house.

But for Saturn this simple truth can be difficult to comprehend.
Maybe so, for me at least....

And no, I am not picking at you Kirka. Peace.:smile:
I know you're not :)

Thank you again for the valuable input about your experience with the placement in question.
You're welcome, I hope I was helpful in spite of our disagreements.

poyi
08-19-2013, 08:02 PM
Guess What?

9th house according to The Rulership Book. It also rules Commerce (interstate and international), trade (world, colonial trade in mundane), world wide contracts.It also rules a Person's next life!

Apparently nothing unusual for Kirka to have a master degree in Commence, I think from memory of the post.

serafin5
08-21-2013, 07:46 PM
Poyi

bible is a book written by a certain small section of humanity millions of years after the creation of the earth......did they think they were first past the post? Or special to know how to explain it? A book written 4000 years ago purporting knowledge from millions if years ago is pants seeing as no science was involved...its hogwash imo .just fairytales or imaginings..the bible has wisdoms in it But then so do so many other books,but is full of cr ap in other ways...it is NOT the be all and end all on life, it was written by arrogant alpha males probably a few smoking a marijuana stick, whilst beating their wives, others worse, islam is worse in that respect 60 yr old men marrying 8 yr old children, god forbid

Ie the bible HAS NO MONOPOLY on truth morality righteousness in this day and age, we can see through its falseness, and its blatant eviil and ignorance sometimes,its based on fear and a horrid god, took jesuses teachings to set it all right not that he managed it

The ancient greek philosophers were wiser

You dont need dead idiots to rule your life or dictate in 2013

Why do you need a belief system from 4000 years ago? What credibility does it have apart from stupid kings giving it the go ahead?

if you wnt to keep up with the bible, the old testament is dead, its a pile of balls, jesus said listen to yourself not others, the answer is within you,basically jesus was saying dont be brainwashed and trust your own judgement,he was crucified for it, for telling people to think for themselves against the powers that be, no different today! Ahhistory repeats itself

for me people who believe the bible literally are stupid

Thatwas not to you poyi btw and i do believe in god, because i dont think a bunch of chemical reactions are God.....there must be an intelligence and a design...whichmeans a designer...my idea of designer of the beauty is not some judo christian islamic pathetic personage...the pathetic men who wrote the bible and the quran...failures and control freaks they practice to this day unfortunately and sad individuals believe their total GUFF

As the daughter of a retired pastor who had his own church (Christian) I often describe myself as a believer on parole for good behavior! So I no longer attend church services nor do I study the Bible anymore, however, as a Spiritual human being I am more convinced then ever of the immutable power in the Universal, Spiritual and Physical laws of nature of which we are all subject to IMO. However, to say one is stupid or silly for needing or believing in the Bible or any organized religion is unfair and narrow-minded! While I no longer subscribe to any religion now doesn't mean it isn't right for someone else. People use food, drugs, sex, and money; all very self-destructive behavior! I'm sorry Mods for going off topic here but I just had to say something!

My 9th hse is in Cancer, with no planets there. My Jupiter is in Aries in the 5th/,6th hse (depending on preferred hse system). Moon is in Taurus, 7th hse.

My dos centavos.:smile:
S5

*emma*
08-21-2013, 08:01 PM
As the daughter of a retired pastor who had his own church (Christian) I often describe myself as a believer on parole for good behavior! So I no longer attend church services nor do I study the Bible anymore, however, as a Spiritual human being I am more convinced then ever of the immutable power in the Universal, Spiritual and Physical laws of nature of which we are all subject to IMO. However, to say one is stupid or silly for needing or believing in the Bible or any organized religion is unfair and narrow-minded! While I no longer subscribe to any religion now doesn't mean it isn't right for someone else. People use food, drugs, sex, and money; all very self-destructive behavior! I'm sorry Mods for going off topic here but I just had to say something!

My 9th hse is in Cancer, with no planets there. My Jupiter is in Aries in the 5th/,6th hse (depending on preferred hse system). Moon is in Taurus, 7th hse.

My dos centavos.:smile:
S5
Sorry if I offended you but

Pls dont put words into my mouth, I never intimated anywhere that it is wrong for people to believe in this that or the other if they need it, or if it *helps* I stand by my post though
***

for me people who believe the bible literally are stupid


***

Ok, maybe add to that deluded, unthinking, uneducated, needy, desperate, cultured, self protective, whatever......do you know how much appalling stuff is in the bible that people to this day take literally? Things which just are untrue and false, and some of these people destroy their lives or commit crimes based on those beliefs, hello?

Most related to the old testament, most of which is based on hate, politics, guilt and fear mongering, something the new testament tried to remedy im sure you would agree, how has the old testament ever helped anyone? Unless they were into revenge, killing, hate, self sacrifice and so so many negatives there, lets not forget a sadist God!


Totally agree with your other sentiment about universal spirituality...and this is miles away from the old testament! IMHO it should be defunt as a force except for a historical document and if you are going to engage in any discussion on religion or the bible you should have a thick skin as its bound to be hot potato stuff and as its never personal! and never about whether anyone who believes in it is a good or bad person, thatmuch should be clear, peace

serafin5
08-21-2013, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=*emma*;495253]Sorry if I offended you but

Pls dont put words into my mouth, I never intimated anywhere that it is wrong for people to believe in this that or the other if they need it, or if it *helps* I stand by my post though
***

for me people who believe the bible literally are stupid


***

Ok, maybe add to that deluded, unthinking, uneducated, needy, desperate....do you know how much appalling atuff is in the bible that people to this day take literally? Things which just are untrue and false, and some of these people destroy their lives or commit crimes based on those beliefs, hello?

Most related to the old testament, most of which is based on hate, politics, guilt and fear mongering, something the new testament tried to remedy im sure you would agree, how has the old testament ever helped anyone? Unless they were into revenge, killing, hate, self sacrifice and so so many negatives there, lets not forget a sadist God!


Totally agree with your other sentiment about universal spirituality...and this is miles away from the old testament! IMHO it should be defunt as a force except for a historical document and if you are going to engage in any discussion on religion or the bible you should have a thick skin as its bound to be hot potato stuff and as its never personal! peace[/QUOTE:]


[Facepalm] Sigh

Their belief isn't stupidity it's called faith. Name calling isn't cool here Emma. I'm done.

Serafin5

*emma*
08-21-2013, 08:20 PM
dont know why i bothered go reply and explain and offer olive branch, sigh


As if faith is a safety sacred blanket that excuses so much and cant be discussed, what does that remind me of....shudder...never mind

If you decide to discuss youre in the kitchen and this thread is about religion you should excpect nothing less imo , as i said in my previous post which u quoted before i finished adding to its never personal and not about good or bad people but dodgy beliefs which people can build their lives on many a time to serious detriment and psychological impairment and damage...oh yes and not to mention some thinking they have a god given right to kill, maim, abuse children and the rest.....not comfortable is it?

I will concede stupid might have been the wrong word....maybe.....in *some* circumstances...

Maybe im as much as a culprit and all should just talk about religion and their ninth and not about it in general

DreamingTheSeas
08-21-2013, 08:49 PM
I believe in God ( Orthodox Christian), i do not go to church except of Easter mostly, i just believe. And maybe faith is like all the other things in our lives that you do not have to see to believe.
My 9th is in Leo, no planets there and ruler is on 3rd house along with Mercury.

*emma*
08-21-2013, 08:54 PM
I believe in God ( Orthodox Christian), i do not go to church except of Easter mostly, i just believe. And maybe faith is like all the other things in our lives that you do not have to see to believe.
My 9th is in Leo, no planets there and ruler is on 3rd house along with Mercury.


Thats great, Im orthodox, officially anyway, too, no one is belittling faith in God or a creator or a supreme intelligence of being of love.....its the nasty pebbles in between that one steps on that need to be kicked to the kerband organised religion the old testament and parts of the new one are just that IMHO

Wont start on islam either

poyi
08-22-2013, 03:48 AM
I also don't believe in everything the Bible said literally as too logical that human being would just change the original to manipulate to their own advantage to stay in Power and be the Authority in religious area.

Ultimately, it is your self conscience and again to me as Free Will how to interpret the information you received each day from the most minor things to the deepest mysteries of life. As long as you have peace within in what you stand for and providing practical help to others, I think that is good enough as you fulfilled the goal of spirituality.

knowhow999
08-22-2013, 06:57 AM
Pluto has been transiting my ninth house for many years. It completely revised my spiritual beliefs. Organized religious views went bye, bye. I have become a more open and spiritual being. I perceive all of creation as part of the divine. Reincarnation is real. Past life experiences can be accessed. Astrology has been a guiding force for me and metaphysical insight is wonderful and a tremendous gift to everyone.

Blessings:happy:

dr. farr
08-22-2013, 07:01 AM
Those of us who accept Pluto as an often valuable astrological indicator, believe that Pluto can manifest highly significant transformational influences-it seems to have done so (in a positive sense) in your case...

poyi
08-22-2013, 07:04 AM
I found that transformation will come easily if you let the energy to take control on removing rubbish in your life.

With Saturn in the 9th house, I wonder if Saturn return also made any transformative or perhaps an mid life Review or conclusion of some thing regarding to 9th house?

I think the similar could apply to progression and transit to the planet in 9th house and ruler of 9th house.

serafin5
08-22-2013, 12:45 PM
I also don't believe in everything the Bible said literally as too logical that human being would just change the original to manipulate to their own advantage to stay in Power and be the Authority in religious area.

Ultimately, it is your self conscience and again to me as Free Will how to interpret the information you received each day from the most minor things to the deepest mysteries of life. As long as you have peace within in what you stand for and providing practical help to others, I think that is good enough as you fulfilled the goal of spirituality.

Hi Poyi I just wanted to say that your 'signature quote' is really beautiful! I'm so glad you chose to share it with everybody; thank you!:biggrin:

S5

fullmoonlibra
08-22-2013, 01:10 PM
I have my Sun conjunct North Node in 9th house.
My Sun is also the chart ruler, and it is trine ASC.
And Uranus transit will make its entree into my 9th house..
Mars is the ruler of my 9th house and it is in the 5th house.
Jupiter? In Pisces and in 7th house.

What to do now :) ?

poyi
08-22-2013, 07:22 PM
Hi Poyi I just wanted to say that your 'signature quote' is really beautiful! I'm so glad you chose to share it with everybody; thank you!:biggrin:

S5

I got the quote from reading one of my new books by Stephen Arroyo.

"Exploring The Astrological Key to Jupiter: Progress, Prosperity & Potential"

It mentioned about the link of a good Astrologer should be have the quality of a dignified Jupiter. As astrology by itself is not only 8th and 12th house matter, but indeed a higher mind study, that requires board mental visions and generosity like Jupiter, astrology itself is forever growing.

It was very interesting as it describe why Jupiter rules Sagittarius a half horse lower body with a top body and head of a man who was using an arrow pointing at something far away.

"...the centaur. This unique creature is still grounded on the earth with an animal body, but that does not stop him from using his human half to carefully aim his arrow at a specific goal on the distant horizon. It should be said here that large numbers of people worldwide have found in astrology an effective method of refocusing and experiencing today the age-old sense of unity with the cosmos."

"...Jupiter's bigness and broad vision is inextricably linked to the perennial human search for a larger truth and for an experience of oneness with the universe..."

For those interesting on The Ninth House and Religion may consider getting a copy of this book to look at the natural ruler of the 9th house.

BobZemco
08-23-2013, 12:39 AM
Most related to the old testament, most of which is based on hate, politics, guilt and fear mongering, something the new testament tried to remedy im sure you would agree, how has the old testament ever helped anyone?

An intelligent god would have realized that...foreseen it....and taken steps so that no remedy was needed.

Their belief isn't stupidity it's called faith.

Not when it's based on ignorance.

I have my Sun conjunct North Node in 9th house.

That is most unfortunate, as your Sun is severely debilitated.

My Sun is also the chart ruler, and it is trine ASC.

That's even worse.

Mars is the ruler of my 9th house and it is in the 5th house.
Jupiter? In Pisces and in 7th house.

That's impossible.

If the 7th House is Pisces, then the 8th House is Aries, and the 9th House is Taurus.

So you have a 8th House Aries Sun conjunct the Head, with Mars in a 10th Position square.

What to do now :) ?

I'd be careful crossing the street if I were you.

It mentioned about the link of a good Astrologer should be have the quality of a dignified Jupiter. As astrology by itself is not only 8th and 12th house matter, but indeed a higher mind study, that requires board mental visions and generosity like Jupiter, astrology itself is forever growing.

You're mistaken. Astrology was always a 9th House Matter, and never an 8th or 12th House Matter.

poyi
08-23-2013, 01:07 AM
You're mistaken. Astrology was always a 9th House Matter, and never an 8th or 12th House Matter.

According to The Rulership Book by Rex. Bills, 8th house:

Occult abilities, or faculties, one's talent
Occult, study of the
Occultism, occlutists, occult writers,
Mysticism, mystics, the mystical
Psychism, psychics, psychic receptivity and faculties, psychic disturbances, psychometry and psychometric functions of the body, gain from psychic influences, experiences
outcome of speculation

12th house
Research, researchers, research workers
Religions, occult
Occult religions
occultism, occultists, occult writers, one's occult faculties
Psychism, psychics, psychic receptivity and faculties, psychic disturbances, psychometry and psychometric functions of the body, gain from psychic influences, experiences
Secret services, secret service agents
Secret Societies
Understanding, ultimate

According to Skyscript 8th house rules all the hidden matters, 12th rules secrets, hidden matters, witchcraft.

I suppose what you referring to as Astrology is different to the occults.

According to Oxford Dictionary:
occult

[/URL] noun

(the occult)

mystical, supernatural, or magical powers, practices, or phenomena:a secret society to study alchemy and the occult

adjective



1involving or relating to mystical, supernatural, or magical powers, practices, or phenomena:an occult ceremony a weird occult sensation of having experienced the identical situation before
communicated only to the initiated; esoteric:the typically occult language of the time



2 Medicine (of a disease or process) not accompanied by readily discernible signs or symptoms: careful palpation sometimes discloses occult spina bifida
(of blood) abnormally present, e.g. in faeces, but detectable only chemically or microscopically.

verb

Pronunciation: [URL="http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/key-to-pronunciation"] /ɒˈkʌlt/ (http://oxforddictionaries.com/translate/english-spanish/occult_1)
[with object]

cut off from view by interposing something:a wooden screen designed to occult the competitors
Astronomy (of a celestial body) conceal (an apparently smaller body) from view by passing or being in front of it: the Moon occults Mars during daylight on March 22

poyi
08-23-2013, 01:20 AM
The Occult, is the knowledge of the hidden.

Just in case Oxford dictionary wasn't good enough. I have got Bob the Cambridge Dictionary.

occult

adjective
/əˈkʌlt/ /ˈɒk.ʌlt/ http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAA8AAAANCAYAAAB 2HjRBAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAACXBIWXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH3Q IHDhwoXD8WJQAAATlJREFUKM+F0TFrFFAQBOBvr7pCyWF1IEIq ufIgFmmEdKYTrFIEPDsh/yCNVvkLQTgQwcLqIDamU7CIjZguZ2VrqZLCbmzeyUvwcGHhvdk Zdme3kuijqqZ4jGkHL3GS5PQKdyWuqhGOMcErnHe8CR5ihCdJl qCJR/iCvSTWJbZxhumq6RDvW2HeEQ9wt73nWOAQ49ZoPMBTnCf5hFvd qBu4WVUHeJvkUcNv4wWeDZqXE+vjJ+40i0f4ijfYG7RlLNcpk7 zGRlV9rKpFksskPzAa4Hvz8c+oqq0kR0nuY1FVh1U1xO8BTrHb kW+0570kn/GgqvYb9qvZ2MEHretFO9dW2+oC+93mV9uet/8ZtlfFXbzD+D93HuIlZkn0hZ12v+eYXBNtYtYmnP3Fr5HGTXyB dPmtddzs+X8AF3fNVc3ugckAAAAASUVORK5CYII= /ˈɑː.kʌlt/

Definition


› relating (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/search/british/direct/?q=relating) to magical (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/search/british/direct/?q=magical) powers (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/search/british/direct/?q=powers) and activities (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/search/british/direct/?q=activities), such as those of witchcraft (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/witchcraft) and astrology (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/search/british/direct/?q=astrology):


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/occult_1

If Both Oxford and Cambridge are not good enough. I think we should have a meeting with the British to correct their language.

tsmall
08-23-2013, 02:43 AM
You're mistaken. Astrology was always a 9th House Matter, and never an 8th or 12th House Matter.

Even though I know this will irritate a few, the thread was posited :whistling: in the traditional forum. So let's look at another book other than the one mentioned, which btw is one astrologer's interpretation and disregards much of the astrological (including modern) tradition.

According to The Rulership Book by Rex. Bills

Instead look at this one:

The Houses, Temples of the Sky, by Deborah Houlding

8th House Associations Through History

Manilius: Unfortunate. The abode of Typhon.

Others (classical) Death and its nature; trial,; penalty; loss; weakness.

**note why? It is unconfigured to the ASC and the most unfortunate succedent house, coming in third in unfortunate to the 12th,then 6th,then 8th.***

Firmicus: The kind of death...debilitated and passive because it does not aspect the ascendant. Called 'Gate of Hell."

Al-Biruni: Death, murder, poison. Inheritance. Wife's property (2nd from 7th). Expenditure; poverty.

Lilly: Death; wills, partner's money. Fear and anguish of mind.

Modern: Income, taxes, legacies, shared feelings, sex, birth and death. Big business. Insurance. Crime.

Please note that nowhere, even in the modern interpretation, is knowledge of the divine/forecasting included.

Meanwhile, same book, traditional references

9th House Associations Through History

Manilius: Destiny and decrees of the gods. Temple of the Sun.

Others (classical): Travel. God; manifestations ;of the gods; revelations, soothsaying. Friendship of and benefit from kings.

Firmicus: Religion. Foreign travel. The social class of men. The house of the Sun god. Favourable because it aspects the ascendant by trine.

Al-Biruni: Travel, religion, fate, attainment of knowledge from the stars and divination. Philosophy, interpretation of dreams.

I havn't the time to be able to find and quote all the old sources, but

Astrology was always a 9th House Matter

Which makes me feel a bit better about this

It mentioned about the link of a good Astrologer should be have the quality of a dignified Jupiter. As astrology by itself is not only 8th and 12th house matter, but indeed a higher mind study, that requires board mental visions and generosity like Jupiter, astrology itself is forever growing.

Because if that's true then I need to hang it up on learning astrology and becoming a decent astrologer...

Since Jupiter in my natal chart is completely peregrine (meaning has no dignity what so ever) yet is clinging (adhering to) to the ASC (and Jupiter is above the horizon in a day chart, in masculine sign, human sign, bright degree, masculine quadrant), joined with Mercury (the planet of astrology) who though retrograde and combust rules my 9th house...I think I'll keep studying.

poyi
08-23-2013, 03:03 AM
If you read again, I did refer to Skycript from the book of The Houses Temple in the Sky. It stills say hidden matters and witchcraft so I said perhaps astrology doesn't belong to Occult category. So I went to look up the English dictionary.

tsmall
08-23-2013, 03:15 AM
If you read again, I did refer to Skycript from the book of The Houses Temple in the Sky. It stills say hidden matters and witchcraft so I said perhaps astrology doesn't belong to Occult category. So I went to look up the English dictionary.


Ok, but unless you are claiming that astrology falls into the nature of witchcraft (and if you have the book, you will see that no where does it refer to astrology as being occult. Why? Because it's not occult. It's right there in the sky for anyone to be able to see. There is nothing hidden about astrology, because call it science or astronomy, at the heart it is a language (same as math or music) which infers or confers that there will be those who can hear and understand. There is nothing occult/hidden about astrology. Learn the language and you can read the stars.

Consign astrology to the same status as an Ouija board and then where are we?

poyi
08-23-2013, 03:24 AM
Ok, but unless you are claiming that astrology falls into the nature of witchcraft (and if you have the book, you will see that no where does it refer to astrology as being occult. Why? Because it's not occult. It's right there in the sky for anyone to be able to see. There is nothing hidden about astrology, because call it science or astronomy, at the heart it is a language (same as math or music) which infers or confers that there will be those who can hear and understand. There is nothing occult/hidden about astrology. Learn the language and you can read the stars.

Consign astrology to the same status as an Ouija board and then where are we?

In modern day unfortunate, as the public not fully recognised astrology and astrology had been separated by the mainstream astronomers. In the past is purely science to everyone and now is mysterical to general public. I know no traditional astrologer will ever agree with me about 8th and 12th house. I am not intended to win this argument. I am just simply stating the issues how people do see astrology in modern society no matter which school of astrology we used.

"1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated."

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=occult

When you tell people I can predict weather, and see where your cat is now from horary they will only see that as a form of magic. As to people these knowledge was now hidden to most. While in the past it was a recognised study and science. Even now all the members here and student or professional astrologers who can be 100% confident of all their predictions and be able to see everything like God if you believed in one. So astrology at the end is still a hidden knowledge. You might know some of it but not completely. You can look up the sky and say the names of the constellation but I don't know many fully know about all the Stars. Is a knowledge can be learned but who is dare to say "I Know It All?"

For those don't believe in astrology and not have knowledge of astrology to them astrology is occult and is the same as witchcraft.

poyi
08-23-2013, 03:40 AM
Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.

John Frawley often used Horary on Sport prediction on gambling. To gain wealth at the time that is most favourable and from ancient time the use of planetary hours with the right elements of herbs to cure diseases. To elect a wedding day from weather to smooth ceremony.That is manipulation of knowledge to gain things that is not naturally given to you.

tsmall
08-23-2013, 04:15 AM
For those don't believe in astrology and not have knowledge of astrology to them astrology is occult and is the same as witchcraft.

I don't care if people don't believe in astrology. I have people I'm raising to be adults. Three of them. What is wisdom? (9th house) The sum total of your life experiences.


We can watch a sunset, and see the Sun going, going, gone. To them at the age of three it may seem like witchcraft and possibly occult, but to me it is something that happens every day when the skies are not cloudy. To them, mamma made the Sun disappear. Because in that moment, it seemed that she did.

Ever take a child outdoors on a day when it was sunny yet still raining? Bet you saw a rainbow. Why? Because you knew to look for one.

Ever seen the movie "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court?" Predict an Eclipse and what will happen to a primitive society and the world is your oyster. Does that mean that eclipses are "occult?" Of course not, because there is nothing hidden about the fact that an eclipse is happening.

I submit, in all respect, that if you really believe that astrology, the language of the stars, is witchcraft, then perhaps you shouldn't be studying it at all.

Astrology and astronomy divorced long before Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of All Saint's Church. Because of religion, and theosophy.

Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.

You know what? I hate Ptolemy. I mean, he changed the triplicity rulers to suit the needs he had in the moment. He created his own terms (bounds) and then tried to attribute them to an earlier source that has yet to be discovered. Still I find myself quoting him all the time. That prescience is useful. Why?

For, in the first place, this fact ought to be kept in view, that events which necessarily and fully happen whether exciting fear or creating joy, if arriving unforeseen, will either overwhelm the mind with terror or destroy its composure by sudden delight; if, however, such events should have been foreknown, the mind will have been previously prepared for their reception, and will preserve an equable calmness, by having been accustomed to contemplate the approaching event as though it were present, so that, on its actual arrival, it will be sustained with tranquility and constancy.

There is all the free will we have. To be able to accept with all the dignity and temperment our charts grant us to

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

poyi
08-23-2013, 07:31 AM
I think what I can relate the best between similarity of Astrology in particular Transnational Astrology is the nature of Electional Astrology.

Astrologer can Elect a time and date for the client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months. It works. That's manipulation of the nature course of that person's will. As the astrologer found the grab of moment to make that person to respond to that call. You can also argue that is part of destiny and will. But the knowledge of doing that Electional chart is what I am pointing as manipulation of knowledge of Time to use the advantage of the planets to do the work for you.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 09:03 AM
I think what I can relate the best between similarity of Astrology in particular Transnational Astrology is the nature of Electional Astrology.
Astrologer can Elect a time and date for the client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months. It works.
At least 200 successful electional chart examples are required of this precise kind of situation in order for this to be even considered as a statistical proof

An astrologer may 'Elect a time and date for a client to call the person that had refused to make contact in 7 months'

BUT NEVERTHELESS

where is the astrologer who claims an IMMUTABLE MAGICAL GUARANTEE that the use of the particular elected time and date chosen by that particular astrologer would DEFINITELY have 'a successful outcome' for the client. Electional astrology is not 100 per cent guaranteed every time

Also, your comment continues as follows:
....That's manipulation of the nature course of that person's will. As the astrologer found the grab of moment to make that person to respond to that call.
You imply that Electional astrology FORCES and outcome

You imply that Electional astrology targets people so they are forced to act against their will

That is a contradiction to the idea of an individual's 'free will'
You can also argue that is part of destiny and will. But the knowledge of doing that Electional chart is what I am pointing as manipulation of knowledge of Time to use the advantage of the planets to do the work for you
An Electional chart is not 'a manipulation of time'

An Electional is the USE of time

Electional charts indicate the optimum time for an action - AND THAT IS ALL AN ELECTIONAL CHART CAN DO

For example, it is not a good idea to consider launching a boat when the tide is out :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:09 AM
Yes I realized about the idea of how electrional chart makes that to happen against would be against "Free Will". That's why it is kind of witchcraft to me as it goes against the nature.

I do know a person personally who received 10-20 clients on phone, and used Horary to foresee who will be calling and what questions they will be asking everyday. He used electional chart to help them to do their business local and international. He makes living based on that. You might not believe but I know myself day in day out that how it works.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 09:13 AM
Yes I realized about the idea of how electrional chart makes that to happen against would be against "Free Will". That's why it is kind of witchcraft to me as it goes against the nature.

I do know a person personally who received 10-20 clients on phone, and used Horary to foresee who will be calling and what questions they will be asking everyday. He used electional chart to help them to do their business local and international. He makes living based on that. You might not believe but I know myself day in day out that how it works.
It's not a matter of 'belief'. I'm simply stating that Electional astrology IS NOT WITCHCRAFT

Electional astrology simply Elects the most optimum time for an action and that is all - nothing magical or mystical - just the optimum time for an action :smile:

*emma*
08-23-2013, 09:15 AM
Witchcraft is a form of manipulation against the nature course of destiny. When we draw horary chart, electoral chart for surgery date, to locate a pet or object, to know the best period to buy gold for investment, to preview solar return, lunar return, to predict weather, to know a person without talking to him or her just based on the birth data. All these are against the common natures. And knowing is power of control, in a way we have certain power to manipulate once we got the information. To me astrology shares a level of witchcraft characteristic.
.

By that argument, science, medicine is also witchcraft
:biggrin:

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:15 AM
You can also consider the fact that Astrologers do use astrology on trades, investment, gambling on horsing, sport, they gained wealth with the knowledge and accurate predictions for their personal benefit as well as improving health that against the modern medical science. Most people don't have the skill to do it themselves.
It doesn't deny the fact that there are people can do it everyday.

For those who can do it will never share with the public how they actually do it. On the other hand, rather an astrologer do such accurate speculation not only based on how strong his Jupiter and Mercury in natal are that is based on the condition of his 5th and 11th houses also plus all the progression, transit and so on. Even if you have the skills on doing so, the planets won't agree with you.

I would say in most cases, is a mix of Free Will and Destiny.

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:19 AM
By that argument, science, medicine is also witchcraft
:biggrin:

You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.

*emma*
08-23-2013, 09:21 AM
You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.


Nice swerve

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:23 AM
Nice swerve

You welcome:rightful:

I like discussion in general, it promotes growth in understanding and knowledge. As long as we remain Calm:w00t:

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 09:24 AM
You can also consider the fact that Astrologers do use astrology on trades, investment, gambling on horsing, sport, they gained wealth with the knowledge and accurate predictions for their personal benefit as well as improving health that against the modern medical science. Most people don't have the skill to do it themselves.
It doesn't deny the fact that there are people can do it everyday.

For those who can do it will never share with the public how they actually do it. On the other hand, rather an astrologer do such accurate speculation not only based on how strong his Jupiter and Mercury in natal are that is based on the condition of his 5th and 11th houses also plus all the progression, transit and so on. Even if you have the skills on doing so, the planets won't agree with you.
Astrologers may use astrology to indicate optimum times for actions of all kinds
- just as weather forecasters use meteorology to indicate optimum times for actions -
however weather forecasters are not using 'witchcraft'
I would say in most cases, is a mix of Free Will and Destiny.
Either there is Free Will or their is Destiny :smile:

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 09:28 AM
You can say that Witchcraft actually is part of hidden knowledge that is beyond the normal understanding. At a different point in time, our current science and medicine would be the witchcraft for the past.
Good idea to investigate what is meant by the word 'witchcraft' then - here's a definition from an online dictionary :smile:
QUOTE

witch·craft

Noun
The practice of magic, esp. black magic; the use of spells and the invocation of spirits.

Synonyms
sorcery - witchery - magic - wizardry - enchantment

*emma*
08-23-2013, 09:31 AM
You welcome:rightful:

I like discussion in general, it promotes growth in understanding and knowledge. As long as we remain Calm:w00t:

Discussion is great. So, I take it, as a practioner or student of astrology you are declaring yourself to be a witch? Seeing as you believe it is witchcraft.
:biggrin:

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:40 AM
Discussion is great. So, I take it, as a practioner or student of astrology you are declaring yourself to be a witch? Seeing as you believe it is witchcraft.
:biggrin:

I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves. Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets. They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology. By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 09:55 AM
I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event....
So you are clearly saying that in your opinion in any event, Electional astrologers are Witches or Wizards
....in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves.
There are charlatans
who claim they have the ability to confer mysterious undefined unspecified 'power' on others

BUT ONLY IF that person pays them enough money :smile:
Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets.
So you are clearly placing astrology readings in the same realm as 'fortune telling, palm reading, tarot cards'
...They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology.
So this means that you immediately label anyone who is a herbalist or a medical astrologer as a 'witch' or 'wizard'
...By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.
I would be interested if you would explain what your definition of Witchcraft is without using the term 'hidden knowledge'

After all, to 99 percent of the population, computer programming is 'hidden knowledge'

So by your definition then, computer programmers
- since they have 'hidden knowledge' on the workings of computers -
are immediately labelled as 'witches' and 'wizards' :smile:

*emma*
08-23-2013, 09:58 AM
I see that Witch or Wizard are people with knowledge and power to pick the timing to make the most of the best outcome of particular event in most cases, particularly for personal benefit or for the people who pay them money to gain power for themselves. Witches and Wizard do fortune telling too, they also read astrology charts, tarot cards, palm reading, they read signs and symbols, and astrology has a lot of symbols such as our sign for planets. They also do herbal stuffs like medical astrology. By all mean the definition of Witchcraft is hidden knowledge that human not suppose to know since the culture of Jewish, Muslim and Christian culture. I wonder how the ancient Greek and Babylonian thought between astrology and witchcraft. May be you guys can find some information.

Who is *you guys*? And you didnt answer my simple question.

poyi
08-23-2013, 09:59 AM
I am afraid what I could find so far are the ancient Greek and Babylonians used to sacrifice people to the gods in heaven, Planets, to gain good fortune and they are the master and origin of astrology/astrologers. I think as minimal, there is inseparable link between the origin of Greek and Babylonian mythology and astrology.

poyi
08-23-2013, 10:01 AM
Who is *you guys*? And you didnt answer my simple question.

I mean you and JupiterAsc.

Oh yer I forgot to mention, I have no problem being called as a witch. In Chinese astrology and occult study, witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology.

*emma*
08-23-2013, 10:05 AM
I mean you and JupiterAsc.

Oh yer I forgot to mention, I have no problem being called as a witch. In Chinese astrology and occult study, witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology.

Thanks. Though I think what certain people think singuoarly or part of a group or a certain culture does not a thing make as defacto. Astrology transcends all that rubbish thankfully. What does it matter anyway, if astrologers, doctors, scientists, computer programmers, investment bankers, lawyers, and every tom dick and harry are all witches
:biggrin:

poyi
08-23-2013, 10:08 AM
Thanks. Though I think what certain people think singuoarly or part of a group or a certain culture does not a thing make as defacto. Astrology transcends all that rubbish thankfully. What does it matter anyway, if astrologers, doctors, scientists, computer programmers, investment bankers, lawyers, and every tom dick and harry are all witches
:biggrin:

You are so funny. I wonder how the Indian astrologer thought about these both. They common use gemstone, cow milk/urine....

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 10:11 AM
I mean you and JupiterAsc.

Oh yer I forgot to mention, I have no problem being called as a witch. In Chinese astrology and occult study, witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology.
This is an international forum and it is interesting to learn that as a cultural phenomenon in China 'witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology' and thank you for explaining that

However, poyi, you have not as yet responded to a specific comment I just made that you are clearly saying that in your opinion in any event, Electional astrologers are Witches or Wizards

While there are of course charlatans
who claim they have the ability to confer mysterious undefined unspecified 'power' on others

BUT ONLY IF that person pays them enough money

It seems that you are clearly placing astrology readings in the same realm as 'fortune telling, palm reading, tarot cards'

So this means that you immediately label anyone who is a herbalist or a medical astrologer as a 'witch' or 'wizard'

I would be interested if you would explain what your definition of Witchcraft is without using the term 'hidden knowledge'

After all, to 99 percent of the population, computer programming is 'hidden knowledge'

So by your definition then, computer programmers
- since they have 'hidden knowledge' on the workings of computers -
are immediately labelled as 'witches' and 'wizards' :smile:

*emma*
08-23-2013, 10:18 AM
You are so funny. I wonder how the Indian astrologer thought about these both. They common use gemstone, cow milk/urine....

that is their problem not mine
:unsure:

bit disingenuous at worst ignorant at best of you to lump all sorts of practices under the one umbrella....astrology....then go on to say its all witchcraft with the negative connotations no doubt....which makes me wonder if you have some kind of agenda here, oh well, enjoy the enlightening further discussion, i sure you might be enlightened as to what astrology actually is in this day and age, im out of here

poyi
08-23-2013, 10:20 AM
This is an international forum and it is interesting to learn that as a cultural phenomenon in China 'witchcraft is also inseparable with astrology' and thank you for explaining that

However, poyi, you have not as yet responded to a specific comment I just made that you are clearly saying that in your opinion in any event, Electional astrologers are Witches or Wizards

While there are of course charlatans
who claim they have the ability to confer mysterious undefined unspecified 'power' on others

BUT ONLY IF that person pays them enough money

It seems that you are clearly placing astrology readings in the same realm as 'fortune telling, palm reading, tarot cards'

So this means that you immediately label anyone who is a herbalist or a medical astrologer as a 'witch' or 'wizard'

I would be interested if you would explain what your definition of Witchcraft is without using the term 'hidden knowledge'

After all, to 99 percent of the population, computer programming is 'hidden knowledge'

So by your definition then, computer programmers
- since they have 'hidden knowledge' on the workings of computers -
are immediately labelled as 'witches' and 'wizards' :smile:

I think we will need to review the origin of Astrology.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_astro_history.htm

In the old time, when people have little knowledge of science so we called these day. People observed and read the signs of the sky and from nature. They used sacrifice in the hope that they could alternate their destiny. The desire to change the course of destiny was the main goal of witchcraft and astrology. If we have no desire to change anything, why bother spending hours to predict something just to know that for what? The bases of medical astrology, electional astrology, Horary, solar, lunar return, transit and progression. Why do we need to know if in the bottom of our heart we have no desire to manipulate and change anything. Why select a day for surgery, just go ahead without being in fear that might be it won't give the best outcome. Base on the principle of the desire to change destiny, both witchcraft and astrology share the same goal.

Witch/Wizard and witchcraft are terms given by the mainstream religious group and believe system. It sounds negative and demeaning, due to various reasons to start with because they have knowledge that against the authority of the Church.

Hidden knowledge, to me meaning we have the understanding of Time beyond the physical restriction as human we currently living in and we can look back, present and to the future when we please to. Yes Science this day would be the witchcraft of the past. Even science also have the knowledge against the authority of the Church.

*emma*
08-23-2013, 10:35 AM
The desire to change the course of destiny is the main goal of witchcraft and astrology.
-----


This is not factually true....departing from the loaded and insistent connection betwen the two and sticking with ASTROLOGY, which is what this board is about btw, one getting a character analysis, potential for fulfillment anlysis, help with dominant and not so dominant traits, trends, potential strenghts and weaknesses,choices available to one is all to do with self understanding and empowerment...unless you believe in total fate and destiny and total control by some superior power which just does not exist IMO...education and enlightenment and self awareness surely is the lynchpin here!!

Bye now
:rightful:

Ps found a new witch/wizard...your next door psychologist, career adviser etc etc

PPSS Seen your link in your last post on atheism....ah, we are getting to the rub now...what god you believe in? Whatever you think the word god means. Well guess what...there is no right or wrong or better or poorer...its not up for discussion or pontification IMO

Its called free will and free choice and thank God, scuse the pun, the righteous small minded have little voice in todays world

poyi
08-23-2013, 10:36 AM
that is their problem not mine
:unsure:

bit disingenuous at worst ignorant at best of you to lump all sorts of practices under the one umbrella....astrology....then go on to say its all witchcraft with the negative connotations no doubt....which makes me wonder if you have some kind of agenda here, oh well, enjoy the enlightening further discussion, i sure you might be enlightened as to what astrology actually is in this day and age, im out of here

I don't have specific agenda here. I am just thinking out loud. And not afraid to speak.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 10:38 AM
I think we will need to review the origin of Astrology.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_astro_history.htm

In the old time, when people have little knowledge of science so we called these day. People observe and read the signs of the sky and from nature. They used sacrifice in the hope that they can alternate their destiny. The desire to change the course of destiny is the main goal of witchcraft and astrology. If we have no desire to change anything, why bother spending hours to predict something just to know that for what?

If we have no desire to change anything then why bother to spend seven years and huge sums of money paying for studies in order to qualify to be a doctor?

Why bother spending nine years and huge sums of money qualifying to be a barrister?

Why bother spending years learning complex mathematical functions in order to qualify as a computer programmer :smile:
The bases of medical astrology, electional astrology, Horary, solar, lunar return, transit and progression. Why do we need to know if in the bottom of our heart we have no desire to manipulate and change anything. Why select a day for surgery, just go ahead without being in fear that might be it won't give the best outcome.

So then, why look before crossing a road in heavy traffic...

Why consult the weather forecast before planning a celebration...

because - according to your definition - doing that would be changing your 'destiny'
Base on the principle of the desire to change destiny, both witchcraft and astrology share the same goal.
That conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the illustrations you have chosen
Witch and Witzard are terms given by the mainstream religious group and believe system. It sounds negative and demeaning, due to various reasons to start with because they have knowledge that against the authority of the Church.

Hidden knowledge, to me meaning we have the understanding of Time beyond the physical restriction as human we currently living in and we can look back, present and to the future when we please to. Yes Science this day would be the witchcraft of the past. Even science also have the knowledge against the authority of the Church.
You claim that 'Astrology is hidden knowledge' yet you make that statement on a public astrological forum dedicated to the idea of learning from each other/teaching each other by sharing astrological experiences :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 10:47 AM
If we have no desire to change anything then why bother to spend seven years and huge sums of money paying for studies in order to qualify to be a doctor?

Why bother spending nine years and huge sums of money qualifying to be a barrister?

Why bother spending years learning complex mathematical functions in order to qualify as a computer programmer :smile:

So then, why look before crossing a road in heavy traffic...

Why consult the weather forecast before planning a celebration...

because - according to your definition - doing that would be changing your 'destiny'

That conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the illustrations you have chosen

You claim that 'Astrology is hidden knowledge' yet you make that statement on a public astrological teaching forum :smile:

I see your arguments. Witchcraft is a term given by religious group mainly Christian. Rather there is actually spell or curse in witchcraft I don't know. Based on the information of astrologers can provide to clients. Christian group classified Astrology as part of Occult that is together with Witchcraft which long back I was responding to Bob in regarding to Astrology was never related to 8th or 12th house based on traditional astrology I think that what he was on about. So I went on to do a few search and now arguing how astrology is different or the same with you and emma. :biggrin:

In Chinese culture, most of the occult studies and methods they used to Christian group will all be witchcraft. :biggrin:

Witchcraft or astrology, yes we are talking about this in public forum. But clearly not everyone in the society will think that is a sensible belief and study. They won't think studying computer programing is insane or superstition though.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 11:00 AM
I see your arguments. Witchcraft is a term given by religious group mainly Christian. Rather there is actually spell or curse in witchcraft I don't know. Based on the information of astrologers can provide to clients. Christian group classified Astrology as part of Occult that is together with Witchcraft which long back I was responding to Bob in regarding to Astrology was never related to 8th or 12th house based on traditional astrology I think that what he was on about. So I went on to do a few search and now arguing how astrology is different or the same with you and emma. :biggrin:

In Chinese culture, most of the occult studies and methods they used to Christian group will all be witchcraft. :biggrin:

Witchcraft or astrology, yes we are talking about this in public forum. But clearly not everyone in the society will think that is a sensible belief and study. They won't think studying computer programing is insane or superstition though.
You have agreed that we are discussing astrology on a public forum that is dedicated to the idea of learning from each other/teaching each other by sharing astrological experiences
so clearly therefore astrology is not 'hidden knowledge'

Your definition of 'witch' and 'wizard' as 'someone who has hidden knowledge' fails when applied to the many occupations such as doctor, lawyer, computer programmer

That's because those who are qualified as doctor, lawyers, computer programmers et al clearly are aware of knowledge that is hidden to 99 percent of the population BUT they are not 'witches' or 'wizards'

For purposes of clear discussion, would be useful if you would define more clearly your meaning of 'witch' or 'wizard' because currently almost anyone could qualify as one :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 11:10 AM
In regard to the Word "Hidden Knowledge", is knowledge that are not common known or recognized. In the ancient time until the 17th century, Astrology was still being studied and recognized Scholarly. In India surely is still very very well respected. While in UK and some other part of the world they do have bachelor degree for astrology.

But we don't see astrologer being employed by companies in the public as Known as astrologer, I also wonder how to fill in the income tax form for their occupation. They do have astrologer doing weather forecasting for major company which they called as Weather Intelligent such as this one.

http://www.planalytics.com/

Anyway, I was talking about English terms and how the society in general see astrology and astrologer these days might had changed to relate such as 8th and 12th house matter mainly due to the structure of our dominant religious system. Somehow the Christian group wanted to stay in power and from the words from Old Testament, to them they should against such practice.

poyi
08-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Apart from the normal abilities we know as casing spell, putting curse on people, Witch, Wizard, Witchcraft all link to the believe they could perform some sort of magical power:

"the quality of being able to perform; a quality that permits or facilitates achievement or accomplishment."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/magical%20power

Magic (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magic.htm) - The practice of using certain energies and powers whose nature is beyond the scope of technologically oriented science.

"The Origin of Magical Power

"Where does all power truly originate? In the long run, from the sun, of course. Here, too, is the indirect birthplace of all mystical might. Control of the source means total control. To be a star means the very laws of nature are yours to amend as you wish. You see, stars are not inert celestial bodies. They are highly intelligent, aware, and powerful." -Apalla, a humanoid form of a star.

"I can't make something out of nothing. Magic is basically a study of forces. Once one knows how to channel these forces, though, the results can be quite striking." -Doctor Stephen Strange"

"Magical power is the life blood of a magician (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magician.htm) (and of a magical item or creature, for that matter). In this grimoire we will see how magical power is divided into three different types: personal, universal, and dimensional. But all magic (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magic.htm) power is built on common ground, that of reshaping existing power, found in yourself, your universe, or in another dimension, to a form that you desire.

What is important to magicians (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magician.htm), is the reference to the ultimate power coming from the sun, which is our own star. This may explain why the forces of light, usually referred to as the forces of order, good, or "white", hold sway over the forces of darkness, usually referred to as forces of chaos, evil, or "black". "

http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/v_magicdefinition.htm

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 11:29 AM
In regard to the Word "Hidden Knowledge", is knowledge that are not common known or recognized. In the ancient time until the 17th century, Astrology was still being studied and recognized Scholarly. In India surely is still very very well respected. While in UK and some other part of the world they do have bachelor degree for astrology.
Since degrees in astrology are offered in UK and other parts of the world, then clearly astrology is not 'hidden knowledge' :smile:

And since you specifically said previously on this thread that in your opinion in any event, 'witches' and 'wizards' practice 'hidden knowledge'

And then you said that Electional astrologers as well as astrologers in general are 'witches' and 'wizards', then if you would define clearly what you mean by 'witch' or 'wizard' then we can continue the discussion
But we don't see astrologer being employed by companies in the public as Known as astrologer, I also wonder how to fill in the income tax form for their occupation. They do have astrologer doing weather forecasting for major company which they called as Weather Intelligent such as this one.

http://www.planalytics.com/

Anyway, I was talking about English terms and how the society in general see astrology and astrologer these days might had changed to relate such as 8th and 12th house matter mainly due to the structure of our dominant religious system. Somehow the Christian group wanted to stay in power and from the words from Old Testament, to them they should against such practice.
Meteorologists predict the weather, astrologers also predict the weather. Interesting that although you refer to astrologers as being 'witches' and 'wizards' you have agreed that meteorologists are not 'witches' or 'wizards'

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 11:34 AM
Apart from the normal abilities we know as casing spell, putting curse on people, Witch, Wizard, Witchcraft all link to the believe they could perform some sort of magical power:

"the quality of being able to perform; a quality that permits or facilitates achievement or accomplishment."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/magical%20power

Magic (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magic.htm) - The practice of using certain energies and powers whose nature is beyond the scope of technologically oriented science.

"The Origin of Magical Power

"Where does all power truly originate? In the long run, from the sun, of course. Here, too, is the indirect birthplace of all mystical might. Control of the source means total control. To be a star means the very laws of nature are yours to amend as you wish. You see, stars are not inert celestial bodies. They are highly intelligent, aware, and powerful." -Apalla, a humanoid form of a star.

"I can't make something out of nothing. Magic is basically a study of forces. Once one knows how to channel these forces, though, the results can be quite striking." -Doctor Stephen Strange"

"Magical power is the life blood of a magician (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magician.htm) (and of a magical item or creature, for that matter). In this grimoire we will see how magical power is divided into three different types: personal, universal, and dimensional. But all magic (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magic.htm) power is built on common ground, that of reshaping existing power, found in yourself, your universe, or in another dimension, to a form that you desire.

What is important to magicians (http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/bginfo/magician.htm), is the reference to the ultimate power coming from the sun, which is our own star. This may explain why the forces of light, usually referred to as the forces of order, good, or "white", hold sway over the forces of darkness, usually referred to as forces of chaos, evil, or "black". "

http://drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/v_magicdefinition.htm
You are suggesting that the use of 'grimoires', the 'casting of spells/curses', 'black and white magic' is the same as/identical to using electional astrology or any form of astrology in fact :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 11:38 AM
Since degrees in astrology are offered in UK and other parts of the world, then clearly astrology is not 'hidden knowledge' :smile:

And since you specifically said previously on this thread that in your opinion in any event, 'witches' and 'wizards' practice 'hidden knowledge'

And then you said that Electional astrologers as well as astrologers in general are 'witches' and 'wizards', then if you would define clearly what you mean by 'witch' or 'wizard' then we can continue the discussion

Meteorologists predict the weather, astrologers also predict the weather. Interesting that although you refer to astrologers as being 'witches' and 'wizards' you have agreed that meteorologists are not 'witches' or 'wizards'

As I had mentioned before, Science we have these days in the past, people would call it witchcraft as people were not able to accept the idea of people to predict weather that accurately in degrees and wind direction and speed so accurately. And as I said witchcraft is a term given by religious group to explain things that are beyond the norm. Yer airplane and spacecraft, what do you think people in the past would think about them?

Astrologer is not accepted as a normal profession not in modern society that we are in at the moment anyway. If it is normal. I don't know why people are still laughing about astrology time to time again....I love astrology though and that doesn't change anything. But still I have not tell my friends that I study so much astrology and loads of book at home. Only my own sister know about my hobby and my boyfriend. To me astrology is still very hidden due to the domination of Christian society.

poyi
08-23-2013, 11:51 AM
I think what JupiterAsc, emma and Bob arguing about is the different between Witchcraft and Divination. I think what you guys trying to say is Astrology classified as a form of Divination not Witchcraft.

My original point in respond to Bob was Astrology is part of the occult study. And after a few posts it became the argument of witchcraft and astrology as they both being classified as Occult studies.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 12:12 PM
As I had mentioned before, Science we have these days in the past, people would call it witchcraft as people were not able to accept the idea of people to predict weather that accurately in degrees and wind direction and speed so accurately. And as I said witchcraft is a term given by religious group to explain things that are beyond the norm. Yer airplane and spacecraft, what do you think people in the past would think about them?

Astrologer is not accepted as a normal profession not in modern society that we are in at the moment anyway. If it is normal. I don't know why people are still laughing about astrology time to time again....I love astrology though and that doesn't change anything. But still I have not tell my friends that I study so much astrology and loads of book at home. Only my own sister know about my hobby and my boyfriend. To me astrology is still very hidden due to the domination of Christian society.
So those are your reasons for regarding astrology as occult - because as a Christian you are regarded in a negtive light by family and friends of your culture for have astrological interests because China there is prejudice against astrologers just as in other parts of the world there is a similar prejudice in society in general. However to be fair we find prejudices of many kinds in life - not just against astrology :smile:

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 12:15 PM
I think what JupiterAsc, emma and Bob arguing about is the different between Witchcraft and Divination. I think what you guys trying to say is Astrology classified as a form of Divination not Witchcraft.

My original point in respond to Bob was Astrology is part of the occult study. And after a few posts it became the argument of witchcraft and astrology as they both being classified as Occult studies.
It seems clearer now that the reason astrology is considered 'hidden' by SOME people
is because those people feel unable to express their interest in astrology
due to the prejudices of their society or particular local culture or the norms and values of their family/friends. :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 12:20 PM
So those are your reasons for regarding astrology as occult - because as a Christian you are regarded in a negtive light by family and friends of your culture for have astrological interests because China there is prejudice against astrologers just as in other parts of the world there is a similar prejudice in society in general. However to be fair we find prejudices of many kinds in life - not just against astrology :smile:

No actually in Chinese culture, Astrologers are very well respected just like in the Indian culture. We all call them Masters and Dr with a lot of respect. We use Feng shui all the time. In fact so much more common that we all know the HSBC bank uses it for their buildings. We have calendar to pick wedding day and rich people do select time for Cesarian section. They literally move the grave of their ancestors to reach the maximum wealth for the whole family blood line.

Is very common you see people having goldfish in particular numbers and in particular color in the particular corner of the home to attract wealth as an example. To attract fortune love life, they often use Pink cherry blossom in new year time. Is only living in Australia with loads of catholic at work also in general people don't openly say they believe or used astrology. Even a lot of the Aussies do secretly into this kind of thing but majority of them are Christians.With my family, I have no problems that is very significant in our culture. Living in Australia is another story.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 12:42 PM
No actually in Chinese culture, Astrologers are very well respected just like in the Indian culture. We all call them Masters and Dr with a lot of respect.

Astrologers who are well qualified such as Robert Zoller and a few othrs are very well respected in Western astrological circles as well - there are many others however who insist they are astrologers yet they have not studied the subject and have little or no experience

Astrology of course is unregulated so anyone can 'be an astrologer' so one needs to take care in this area
We use Feng shui all the time. In fact so much more common that we all know the HSBC bank uses it for their buildings. We have calendar to pick wedding day and rich people do select time for Cesarian section. They literally move the grave of their ancestors to reach the maximum wealth for the whole family blood line.

Is very common you see people having goldfish in particular numbers and in particular color in the particular corner of the home to attract wealth as an example. To attract fortune love life, they often use Pink cherry blossom in new year time.

Feng Shui seems to be knowledge of living in harmony with one's environment and is clearly common sense for that reason.

In America and the west in general many large corporations definitely do employ Feng Shui consultants and they would not spend their money unless they got good results
Is only living in Australia with loads of catholic at work also in general people don't openly say they believe or used astrology. Even a lot of the Aussies do secretly into this kind of thing but majority of them are Christians.With my family, I have no problems that is very significant in our culture. Living in Australia is another story.
So Australia is particularly a Catholic country - certainly astrology is denounced by the Catholic church and Christianity in general

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 12:58 PM
btw
Although William Lilly did write a book and named it 'CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY' :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 01:01 PM
Definitely, if I told them (catholic workers and friends) that my boyfriend and I studied and used astrology. They will actually call us witch and wizard for sure.:biggrin:

I thought about it a lot. I guess at the end, that's why in a personally level, astrology is very much also related to 8th and 12th house to me in the society and community that I am currently at. I think consciously I know what the Bible said, I do still believe in God but don't consider myself a perfect Christians in many ways. I divorced and I do swear. And I against people having children just because the bible told them to have children. I am too rebel to call myself proper Christian.

I have seen so much evil actions people do to gain profits from the sick and old and the disable. I have these questions in my head a lot and religion itself doesn't answer all my questions that's why I never give up on astrology. But I do struggle with the value systems in between the two. One calls astrology as witchcraft while the other says astrology is the light of life. So somehow, I do accept the fact how the Christians see about astrology, but chose to stay studying astrology.

Is good to talk things though. I am glad we had the discussions.

poyi
08-23-2013, 01:10 PM
btw
Although William Lilly did write a book and named it 'CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY' :smile:


I do have a copy of his books. Even in his time he was accused of witchcraft for his magically accurate predictions. There is a lot of the society pressure about astrology for sure ever since domination of Christian faith rose.

As I always do. I observe, I collect information and I make up my mind independently. I am not a normal Christian for sure and I do observe and study other religions for curiosity. I know there is a lot of Bullshi* in Bible as well, as I mentioned in the previous posts and loads of deceptions within the religious groups. So at the end I chose to believe in God but not chose to stay for any type of religious organization. But my personal experiences with God is intimate and that is all it matter.

Sorry for being contradicting all the time, I do tend to see things both ways at the same time and arguing with myself. Very Mercurial that is.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 01:11 PM
Definitely, if I told them (catholic workers and friends) that my boyfriend and I studied and used astrology. They will actually call us witch and wizard for sure.:biggrin:

I thought about it a lot. I guess at the end, that's why in a personally level, astrology is very much also related to 8th and 12th house to me in the society and community that I am currently at. I think consciously I know what the Bible said, I do still believe in God but don't consider myself a perfect Christians in many ways. I divorced and I do swear. And I against people having children just because the bible told them to have children. I am too rebel to call myself proper Christian.

I have seen so much evil actions people do to gain profits from the sick and old and the disable. I have these questions in my head a lot and religion itself doesn't answer all my questions that's why I never give up on astrology. But I do struggle with the value systems in between the two. One calls astrology as witchcraft while the other says astrology is the light of life. So somehow, I do accept the fact how the Christians see about astrology, but chose to stay studying astrology.

Is good to talk things though. I am glad we had the discussions.
Definitely important and good to talk and discuss. Clearly, astrology is considered 'suspect' by many. In my opinion though, that's a form of prejudice based on misinformation

and if people would read and study the subject thoroughly

and also if astrologers were required to qualify similarly as doctors, lawyers, barristers, computer programmers and others whose work requires so-called 'hidden knowledge'

then the talk of astrology as some weird form of 'witchcraft'
- whatever 'witchcraft' is-
would no longer seem relevant :smile:

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 01:55 PM
I do have a copy of his books. Even in his time he was accused of witchcraft for his magically accurate predictions. There is a lot of the society pressure about astrology for sure ever since domination of Christian faith rose.

As I always do. I observe, I collect information and I make up my mind independently. I am not a normal Christian for sure and I do observe and study other religions for curiosity. I know there is a lot of Bullshi* in Bible as well, as I mentioned in the previous posts and loads of deceptions within the religious groups. So at the end I chose to believe in God but not chose to stay for any type of religious organization. But my personal experiences with God is intimate and that is all it matter.

Sorry for being contradicting all the time, I do tend to see things both ways at the same time and arguing with myself. Very Mercurial that is.
That's ok poyi - no one can blame you for being resident amongst a group of people or a society who are prejudiced against astrologers - there are just as many prejudices by carnivores who hate vegetarians and vice versa... it's nonsensical... surreal :smile:

btw did you ever view the video ZEITGEIST? It's all debatable, you enjoy to learn and consider alternative ways of thinking so there are interesting ideas there to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJaV-IuYHeA

poyi
08-23-2013, 02:22 PM
That's ok poyi - no one can blame you for being resident amongst a group of people or a society who are prejudiced against astrologers - there are just as many prejudices by carnivores who hate vegetarians and vice versa... it's nonsensical... surreal :smile:

btw did you ever view the video ZEITGEIST? It's all debatable, you enjoy to learn and consider alternative ways of thinking so there are interesting ideas there to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJaV-IuYHeA


Oh Yer I think I watched this before long time ago you sent me this before. It does have very interesting ideas in it. Yes I don't believe in definite bad or good, all things are in relativity. When I was younger, I used to see things as just Black and White very extreme as a young Scorpio. As I got old, the definite truth are all things in various shades of Grey (I am not talking about the 50 Shades of Grey, the book here!).

But there is reality of closer to the truth and as well as closer to the lies. Nothing is fully White or Black. As I mentioned before, even God himself/herself in fact is Both the Black and the White. That is very Asian value in me of the ideology of Yin and Yang as a true Wholeness of all things. You have to have the opposition to complete the puzzles which also can be seen in the horoscope wheel.

The evil in us, as represented in that video, is part of God. Why? Evil itself also is under the creation of God. At the Same time, I fully agree, the church, the religious groups in this world are the Religion of Men, not the church of God. It is far too easy for me to see that the Ruler of the World is Satan. The Saturn, the Goat, funny enough in astrology is full of Christian's ideology and symbolism. As strange and as contradiction, yes that is part of God. However, Religion is a tool for certain people to stay in power as they manipulate the Need in human's nature the need to seek God, so they took opportunity to use religion to act in the background as a higher form of Government and laws.

To me Bible and all religions are partly true and partly false. The perfect knowledge of God is not from the books written by men, and not through any chance that somewhere along the line of the human history anyone is able to change and edit. Ultimately, as they are so many confusions and deceptions in our world, one must find his own path to God. Through Christ or not that is another topic to think about. Like what your video had mentioned about.

The other thing just came to my mind. Living in the southern hemisphere, all the seasons are upside down to the north. I always wonder how all these constellation and seasons would they make any sense for those born in Australia. Obviously, astrology still works for those born in Australia. But how those symbolism of Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter means to Australia that has upside down seasons...anyway that out of the topic of this thread.

*emma*
08-23-2013, 05:23 PM
The evil in us, as represented in that video, is part of God. Why? Evil itself also is under the creation of God. At the Same time, I fully agree, the church, the religious groups in this world are the Religion of Men, not the church of God. It is far too easy for me to see that the Ruler of the World is Satan. The Saturn, the Goat, funny enough in astrology is full of Christian's ideology and symbolism.

So all Capricorns and poor goats ruminating in the fields are satan are they?
:w00t:

and if man was made in the image of god then god is evil too innit? Just like some humans can be....do you actually know wht evil means? Or so called sin? i doubt it

Church of God? is there such a thing? As opposed to churches run by humans....
:unsure:

poyi
08-23-2013, 07:06 PM
So all Capricorns and poor goats ruminating in the fields are satan are they?
:w00t:

and if man was made in the image of god then god is evil too innit? Just like some humans can be....do you actually know wht evil means? Or so called sin? i doubt it

Church of God? is there such a thing? As opposed to churches run by humans....
:unsure:

I didn't say all people with Capcricorn sign are evil if so I do have Capcricorn Moon. Capcricorn as a cusp occupies in everyone's chart. I talk about symbolism here. You may search why I say Capricorn.

We all sin. That's the fact. To talk about evil well I had not been raped or gone through massacre. But I do see the eyes of my own parents when they hit me and told me she regreted of not having another abortion. Yes my mother, my Capricorn Moon. She was one of those in Mao's army during civil war in China, in the cultural revolution who tortured and hit people on the street because they were wealthy and educated. But then that is my subjective experiences of experiencing the negative side of Capricorn. My point is Capricorn as part of the wheel. And please do research the background of Capricorn as a symbol. And I am not intend to attack people with Capricorn sign here. Myself is the one has Capricorn Moon here. I look at the Horoscope wheel as a whole. In Tarot Card, Devil is the Card of Capricorn Goat. He is the astrological leader of the material world The Lord of 10th house. In traditional astrology, Saturn is The Lord of Death etc.

poyi
08-23-2013, 07:10 PM
To lighten up the topic a bit. In term of evil, I think my Catholic Church hospital charging patients $15 dollar a day to turn the tv on when they are inpatient. I think that is blood* evil. Most can't afford so they look at the wall all day most don't even come from a clean home...well don't get me started.

JUPITERASC
08-23-2013, 07:18 PM
To lighten up the topic a bit. In term of evil, I think my Catholic Church hospital charging patients $15 dollar a day to turn the tv on when they are inpatient. I think that is blood* evil. Most can't afford so they look at the wall all day most don't even come from a clean home...well don't get me started.
That is extreme, especially since there is no other form of entertainment one supposes, except of course radio, books and reading. Perhaps there is a hospital library. If not then contact any local Charity that may be able to get something done :smile:

poyi
08-23-2013, 07:35 PM
That is extreme, especially since there is no other form of entertainment one supposes, except of course radio, books and reading. Perhaps there is a hospital library. If not then contact any local Charity that may be able to get something done :smile:

Most patients are either deaf or blind or both deaf and blind. Very common when you get to about 80-100 range. Rarely some can afford or hear a radio or if they have family to bring one in? and if not too bad they have family that care enough to buy them some magazine if they could read. There is library but the hospital volunteer don't come all the time to drop a few books. Tv is their favourite as they can sort of hear something or sort of see something with a bigger screen and just turn the volume on very loud.

A couple of times patients said to me What am I gonna do all day? I usual say to them or their family write a Complain letter to CEO, he was the one wanting money from patients. I can't do much as I could lose my job obviously. If I have time I do talk about just anything to keep them busy.

Yes that is just one of the daily examples of human running religious group. A lot of sex abuse too that's why the ex Prime Minister signed for the Royal commission on investigate child sex abuse within all institutions including religious groups. Red Cross and various charities had been on the news for investigation on corruptions. Is just the same. How many of us is truly saint? It would just be easier just to admit even the tiny evil thought as sin. I have very good idea that I am not perfect. Denial to see our own imperfections can be classified as sin that is ignorance. But surely we can choose to be the lighter shade of grey.

Linzul
08-24-2013, 07:19 AM
My 9th house includes Venus and Cancer. Everything I've read has said that gives me a love of philosophy, religion, art, and culture in general. I can agree with that, when I think about how I feel about religion it can be distilled to a culturally related belief. Personally though if I had to label myself it would be secular humanist. I am more concerned with how people are treated and get by on the earthly plane rather than heaven. I've really focused on people eating, to be honest if there's one thing I could do it would be to make sure people had full bellies. I do my part there with the local food bank, but it's the focus I have and have had for quite awhile.

No real belief of my own doesn't mean I rule out a "God" or supreme being, but it's not for me. I dislike religion as a business and/or profit venture or means of gaining political sway. Deleted by moderator

poyi
08-24-2013, 07:24 AM
My 9th house includes Venus and Cancer. Everything I've read has said that gives me a love of philosophy, religion, art, and culture in general. I can agree with that, when I think about how I feel about religion it can be distilled to a culturally related belief. Personally though if I had to label myself it would be secular humanist. I am more concerned with how people are treated and get by on the earthly plane rather than heaven. I've really focused on people eating, to be honest if there's one thing I could do it would be to make sure people had full bellies. I do my part there with the local food bank, but it's the focus I have and have had for quite awhile.

No real belief of my own doesn't mean I rule out a "God" or supreme being, but it's not for me. I dislike religion as a business and/or profit venture or means of gaining political sway.

Deletion by Moderator

May I ask about the condition of your Moon, since you said making sure people have full bullies would be your utmost focus. Obviously that's the way you nurture and love the people around you. I am just curious to see how it shows in your chart.

I agree with you, religion is meaningless if one does not offer practical helps to other in daily bases. Love is action and involves labor not just talking. Spending time with people and giving out practical helps speak a lot louder.

Linzul
08-24-2013, 07:35 AM
May I ask about the condition of your Moon, since you said making sure people have full bullies would be your utmost focus. Obviously that's the way you nurture and love the people around you. I am just curious to see how it shows in your chart.

Sure! This is everything my chart describes on my Moon. As it relates to rulership of signs, Cancer only appears on my chart in the 9th House along with Venus. My Moon placement is Aries. I don't know enough to offer any personal insight on the matter astrologically speaking, but I did spend some years as a small child in foster care where food was completely measured out down to the crumb it seemed like. It may be a personal experience thing that I just don't want to see happen to others. When I found out that over the summer kids who rely on free school lunches have a hard time I died a little inside, that's what spurred it a couple years back. Alls well that ends well with me though, I do have an adopted family that I'm close to so no pity party here!

Moon Square Venus 4°35 (house 9)

Moon Opposition Mars 4°58 (house 12)

Moon Quincunx Saturn 1°55 (house 11)

Deletion by Moderator
I agree with you, religion is meaningless if one does not offer practical helps to other in daily bases. Love is action and involves labor not just talking. Spending time with people and giving out practical helps speak a lot louder.

We're of the same mind in this. If there's a spiritual afterlife I'm okay with that and the belief in it. While I'm here though my focus is here and on the needs I can address for those around me!

poyi
08-24-2013, 07:56 AM
Sure! This is everything my chart describes on my Moon. As it relates to rulership of signs, Cancer only appears on my chart in the 9th House along with Venus. My Moon placement is Aries. I don't know enough to offer any personal insight on the matter astrologically speaking, but I did spend some years as a small child in foster care where food was completely measured out down to the crumb it seemed like. It may be a personal experience thing that I just don't want to see happen to others. When I found out that over the summer kids who rely on free school lunches have a hard time I died a little inside, that's what spurred it a couple years back. Alls well that ends well with me though, I do have an adopted family that I'm close to so no pity party here!

Moon Square Venus 4°35

Moon Opposition Mars 4°58

Moon Quincunx Saturn 1°55

Deleted by Moderator

We're of the same mind in this. If there's a spiritual afterlife I'm okay with that and the belief in it. While I'm here though my focus is here and on the needs I can address for those around me!

You have done exceptionally well in you life. You should be proud of your own achievement and clearly your intention is to give back to the society. Very well done!

I am only guessing in my head based on your information. So your Moon Aries in 6th house?, Venus in virgo? 9th house? and Mars in libra? 12th house? together are t-square? While Moon is the ruler of your 9th house.

Moon rules Foods and nurturing. 9th house rules your vision, philosophy and ideal in life. So if you do have t-square, the trial of your childhood, the past, memory about food and nurturing all belongs to Moon. Being a foster child and foods being measured in daily bases that your 6th house daily routine, feeling about limited food that was the feeling coming from Moon quincunx Saturn. 12th house is Charity and institution of all kinds where Mars might be at.

Since this is traditional forum so I won't talk about the outer planets due to forum rules...

If I was right about the planetary aspects and placements. You are a great example of turning this t-square into great desire to build a better society to serve the Ideal and Vision of your 9th house.

Linzul
08-24-2013, 08:35 AM
You have done exceptionally well in you life. You should be proud of your own achievement and clearly your intention is to give back to the society. Very well done!

I am only guessing in my head based on your information. So your Moon Aries in 6th house?, Venus in virgo? 9th house? and Mars in libra? 12th house? together are t-square? While Moon is the ruler of your 9th house.

Moon rules Foods and nurturing. 9th house rules your vision, philosophy and ideal in life. So if you do have t-square, the trial of your childhood, the past, memory about food and nurturing all belongs to Moon. Being a foster child and foods being measured in daily bases that your 6th house daily routine, feeling about limited food that was the feeling coming from Moon quincunx Saturn. 12th house is Charity and institution of all kinds where Mars might be at.

Since this is traditional forum so I won't talk about the outer planets due to forum rules...

If I was right about the planetary aspects and placements. You are a great example of turning this t-square into great desire to build a better society to serve the Ideal and Vision of your 9th house.

Thank you! I do my best, I'm not always in tune with the needs of my community but that one smacked me in the face and made me pay attention for sure.

This is my chart, hope it links correctly! Yes, Moon in Aries is my 6th house, my Venus is in Cancer in the 9th house, and Mars in Scorpio. I've read some serious stuff about Mars in Scorpio in House 12 Deleted by moderator. Apparently that placement is the universes karmic sword. Or garbage man, depending on how you look at it. What I read is that Libra decides outcomes, Mars in Scorpio carries it out. If the 12th House is also charity then I am HAPPY to carry that out, because frankly the other description hasn't been a part of my reality.

What's the deal with outer planets that breaks forum rules?

poyi
08-24-2013, 08:47 AM
Thank you! I do my best, I'm not always in tune with the needs of my community but that one smacked me in the face and made me pay attention for sure.

This is my chart, hope it links correctly! Yes, Moon in Aries is my 6th house, my Venus is in Cancer in the 9th house, and Mars in Scorpio. I've read some serious stuff about Mars in Scorpio in House 12 along with Pluto just today actually. Apparently that placement is the universes karmic sword. Or garbage man, depending on how you look at it. What I read is that Libra decides outcomes, Mars in Scorpio carries it out. If the 12th House is also charity then I am HAPPY to carry that out, because frankly the other description hasn't been a part of my reality.

What's the deal with outer planets that breaks forum rules?

Yes 12th house in traditional astrology is very much a doom house. However, it does rule charity, asylum institution, hospital as well. Mars rules your 6th house, you can very well work in such facility, it will be the best of it expression. You can do some research on North node in 10th house very close to MC, I have the same placement but in different sign. It is said life's goal aim to achieve high in career and known by the public.

Your Sun also in the 10th house, in the sign of Virgo, the sign of service, Mercury is also in Virgo. In traditional astrology it will be counted as combusted Mercury. But in modern astrology, combusted planet not always doom. Somewhere in the forum lately had mentioned an alternative interpretation saying the Sun took over the rulership of that planet.

I wish you all the best with your Vision. And Happy Birthday to you in 5 days!

JUPITERASC
08-24-2013, 11:33 AM
....Since this is traditional forum so I won't talk about the outer planets due to forum rules...

What's the deal with outer planets that breaks forum rules?
Linzul, in answer to your question:

a rule specifically for the Traditional forum and for the Traditional forum only
is there BECAUSE traditionally, the outer planets are not needed for chart delineation.

Today, as in ancient times, the VISIBLE planets that are visible in the night skies are
Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and the Sun is visible during the day.
These are the 7 Visible Planets that are easily seen by those with normal vision
without any necessity for artificial aids such as telescopes.

The 7 visible planets have been used in chart delineation for at least two thousand years.

Clay tablets confirm that the 7 visible planets have been observed for at least approximately ten thousand years...
and in fact the Mayan Calendar's use of observations of the planet Venus provides stunning accuracy

The outers were 'discovered'/'noticed' recently so their use is an experimental part of modern astrology,
also there is no consensus amongst modern astrologers regarding their 'effects'.

There is no mention of the outers in Traditional astrological texts written by ancient masters of astrology,
therefore obviously there is simply no need for their use on a Traditional forum.
The following table has been used by astrologers for at least one and a half thousand years
as a Study Aid in the determination of planetary dignity and debility - notice that the outers are entirely absent

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif
source of the above table: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

Linzul
08-24-2013, 07:01 PM
Yes 12th house in traditional astrology is very much a doom house. However, it does rule charity, asylum institution, hospital as well. Mars rules your 6th house, you can very well work in such facility, it will be the best of it expression. You can do some research on North node in 10th house very close to MC, I have the same placement but in different sign. It is said life's goal aim to achieve high in career and known by the public.

Your Sun also in the 10th house, in the sign of Virgo, the sign of service, Mercury is also in Virgo. In traditional astrology it will be counted as combusted Mercury. But in modern astrology, combusted planet not always doom. Somewhere in the forum lately had mentioned an alternative interpretation saying the Sun took over the rulership of that planet.

I wish you all the best with your Vision. And Happy Birthday to you in 5 days!

This is really interesting to me, I looked up combust planets and various pages said to pray to the rising sun while looking at it directly! Well, I won't be doing that, but I had a sort of internal chuckle at the notion as it relates astrologically to what I want. If the Sun represents the things I strive for, and in the 10th House is closely related to work, well I call work "church" because I work on Sundays and love my job! When it comes to work my chart is crazy accurate.

I deal with combustion by making sure that even if others can't see me, the Sun (whoever is shining brighter) knows that when they hand over a project it's going to be done to make them shine ever brighter. As long as the "Sun" attributes some of their rays to me, we're both happy! This satisfies my comfort with service and my ego quite well. When things don't work out that way it makes me sulk like a toddler, but I actively make sure it doesn't happen again.

JUPITERASC thanks for the info!

poyi
08-24-2013, 07:18 PM
This is really interesting to me, I looked up combust planets and various pages said to pray to the rising sun while looking at it directly! Well, I won't be doing that, but I had a sort of internal chuckle at the notion as it relates astrologically to what I want. If the Sun represents the things I strive for, and in the 10th House is closely related to work, well I call work "church" because I work on Sundays and love my job! When it comes to work my chart is crazy accurate.

I deal with combustion by making sure that even if others can't see me, the Sun (whoever is shining brighter) knows that when they hand over a project it's going to be done to make them shine ever brighter. As long as the "Sun" attributes some of their rays to me, we're both happy! This satisfies my comfort with service and my ego quite well. When things don't work out that way it makes me sulk like a toddler, but I actively make sure it doesn't happen again.

JUPITERASC thanks for the info!

I also have combusted Mercury Scorpio ruled by Mars in 1st house in mutual reception and it is in the 3rd house ruler of my ascendant and MC. In term of negative 3rd house and Mercurial matters, it manifests as my sibling died before my birth from my mum's abortion, I learned to talk very late as a toddler, never do well at school at younger age, having a few motor accidents, burns, fracture arm and scars on limbs and I have overly active mind and don't usually sleep very well.

But later in life, I learn to communicate well, talking too much really and very expressive, and I used my fingers/hands a lot at work, and I learned to knit as I got older and doing well with that. I personally think the combusted planet might get better later in life.

Linzul
08-24-2013, 07:37 PM
I also have combusted Mercury Scorpio ruled by Mars in 1st house in mutual reception and it is in the 3rd house ruler of my ascendant and MC. In term of negative 3rd house and Mercurial matters, it manifests as my sibling died before my birth from my mum's abortion, I learned to talk very late as a toddler, never do well at school at younger age, having a few motor accidents, burns, fracture arm and scars on limbs and I have overly active mind and don't usually sleep very well.

But later in life, I learn to communicate well, talking too much really and very expressive, and I used my fingers/hands a lot at work, and I learned to knit as I got older and doing well with that. I personally think the combusted planet might get better later in life.

I"m sorry to hear of your early troubles, I don't know how we make it out of childhood sometimes. It's really a remarkable thing. I have 2 kids now, and sometimes the weight of the long term and how I parent is intensely felt. You do the best you can with what you know is my mantra.

Awesome on the knitting front, I crochet and have knitting on my next few things to learn :) Very glad to see your triumphs with age, and I think you're on to something with combusted planets getting better with time, or maybe we just do! If you learn from the situations combustion can land you in of course, and are willing to adapt. The idealist in me likes to think most people do.

My chart is marked with repressed rage in Mars placements and aspects. Despite having outlets (team sports) I know I had many flubs as a young adult in every aspect of life. Picking my battles is something I'm still learning how to do, because as rage issues fade the ego/insecurity ones pop up. Trying to keep reality in perspective with aspiration is the new challenge. Luckily (I think) my ascendant and aspects have helped there.

*emma*
08-24-2013, 07:41 PM
To lighten up the topic a bit. In term of evil, I think my Catholic Church hospital charging patients $15 dollar a day to turn the tv on when they are inpatient. I think that is blood* evil. Most can't afford so they look at the wall all day most don't even come from a clean home...well don't get me started.

exactly so lay off the goats LOL and the fear engendered myths....after all alot of religion is FEAR based and GUILT based....thats abuse of the highest kind and an abomination of human rights IMO

The priests that preach sanctimoniously and then go on to commit criminal acts of all sorts inclusing the most heinous have more goaty beards than satan himself...hmmmmmmm hypocrites....

As for the goat being a symbol of evil etc its cultural rubbish....it is slightly connected to sex....one thing the church has batted against forever, sexuality as if its EVIL....unless condoned by them via marriage, idiots


:D

After all god did say go forth and multiply LOL.......and never said make sure you pop into registry office beforehand! Or say three hail marys if you had a harmless one night stand...the problem religion has and which it will aurely lose is tryng to control people...it has no right in any way shape or form..its an anathema for an intelligent loving creator to control....the priests and pontificators are the losers..and about bloody time

poyi
08-24-2013, 07:52 PM
exactly so lay off the goats LOL and the fear engendered myths....after all alot of religion is FEAR based and GUILT based....thats abuse of the highest kind and an abmination of human rights IMO

The priests that preach sanctimoniously and then go on to commit criminal acts of all sorts inclusing the most heinous have more goaty beards than satan himself...hmmmmmmm hypocrites....

No no, I am not blaming the Goat. It just happens Capricorn and Saturn rules worldly status and power and a lot of mythology related to Goat. Saturn and Capricorn are very good planet and sign just like any other planet and sign, everything works both positively and negatively.

In traditional astrology though, Saturn was known as the Lord of Death, as death is the ultimate Limitation of our physical world and the last planet in the traditional astrology. The boundary of the stars and the world within.

From Skyscript by the authoritative traditional astrology teaching site and owner of the site Deborah Houlding:

"As the most distant of the visible planets, Saturn signifies the boundaries of personal awareness and experience. Astrologically, it depicts the finite limit to our own perceptions, capabilities and life; the fixed extremes against which personal will-power and self determination prove futile. The archetypal figure of the stoic old-man in his deathly shroud portrays the unmoving end which awaits us all, regardless of whether or not we are prepared for it. Death, after all, is an extremely limiting experience."

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html

JUPITERASC
08-24-2013, 08:03 PM
No no, I am not blaming the Goat. It just happens Capricorn and Saturn rules worldly status and power and a lot of mythology related to Goat. Saturn and Capricorn are very good planet and sign just like any other planet and sign, everything works both positively and negatively
The nimble goat climbs the rocky mountain heights with ease - thus symbolic of the 'rocky climb' towards earthly status and power :smile:
In traditional astrology though, Saturn was known as the Lord of Death, as death is the ultimate Limitation of our physical world and the last planet in the traditional astrology. The boundary of the stars and the world within.

From Skyscript by the authoritative traditional astrology teaching site and owner of the site Deborah Houlding:

"As the most distant of the visible planets, Saturn signifies the boundaries of personal awareness and experience. Astrologically, it depicts the finite limit to our own perceptions, capabilities and life; the fixed extremes against which personal will-power and self determination prove futile. The archetypal figure of the stoic old-man in his deathly shroud portrays the unmoving end which awaits us all, regardless of whether or not we are prepared for it. Death, after all, is an extremely limiting experience."

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html
apparently, however Death is not necessarily a limiting experience - according to an interesting documentary :smile:

LIFE AFTER DEATH EXPERIENCES http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PfQ2ilEJFg

poyi
08-24-2013, 08:09 PM
So even if it signified death why did yiu say it signifies evil???


"The Sun is seen as the planet of creativity, light and life - Saturn, the Lord of Death, is viewed as its enemy. As the Sun rules Leo, and governs the height of summer, Saturn takes rulership of the signs that govern midwinter, Capricorn (its nocturnal home) and Aquarius (its diurnal home)."
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html

Links for the mythology and symbolism why goat commonly is considered as evil:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Goat.html

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=Ug_9cVR4lW8C&pg=PA275&lpg=PA275&dq=mythology+goat+and+evil&source=bl&ots=mHE5SvPY1s&sig=DQP8QxzyGz8iTrV7uUTh_r6EtYw&hl=zh-TW&sa=X&ei=9xEZUo-OBsqaiQeAoYHQAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=mythology%20goat%20and%20evil&f=false

poyi
08-24-2013, 08:33 PM
[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]

The simple answer [about good and evil] is the original people (the ancient, Greeks, Indians, Babylonian, Egyptians, even the Mayans) they created and designed Astrology, the symbols they chose to use based on the marking of Seasons. To them Sun is the Good God, and the one who ate the Sun away (shorten Sunlight) in Winter time was considered to be the Evil God, the marking of death of all plants and decrease numbers of animals and birth of animals. Simple. Read it yourself.

You have to look back why people used to think that way. To majority of the people in the Past, the king, the authoritative people, the governors abused the general public, even in modern time is still the same the misuse of power and status. Power and Status are ruled by Saturn, so since the ancient time, people psychological link the both together. If you study the history of demons particularly in Western culture, Goat has always been used as the symbol of Evil.

There are too many resources available for you to read. I don't have I have any more patience for this topic for you.

JUPITERASC
08-24-2013, 08:51 PM
Yes in traditional astrology due to the visible planets end with Satun, in general that is limitation. When it comes to modern astrology, Pluto took the place of death in a different level of meaningful transformation. Personally, I don't see death as limitation. But it is the limitation of the physical body to experience illness and death. When we talk about transformation, in modern astrology we have Pluto to represent.

As contradicting as I usually am, as I tend to think both ways and consider both at the same time:

"Ancient depictions often show Saturn holding the Uroborus, the serpent who eats its own tail, a symbol of eternal regeneration which forges birth and death into the endless cycle of past, present and future."
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html
Since this is the traditional forum, then as explained earlier, Pluto is extraneous :smile:
.....I will address the principle tenets, since they go to the heart of the matter explaining why Pluto does not matter.

Principle #1:

Traditional Astrology is based upon scientific ideas that were re-discovered in the late 19th Century, and throughout 20th Century.

Principle #2:

Traditional Astrology is based upon Planets hurling or casting Rays.

It is a matter of irrefutable Science fact -- discovered in the last 115 years that all objects generate some form of radiation, even if only Black-Body Radiation. That was discovered in 1899, and you can thank Planck.....and Boltzman and Wien.


While Black-Body Radiation is certainly very fascinating, and it is applicable in Traditional Astrology, what we're interested in the radiation generated by the Planets

Our Sun generates a wide variety of electromagnetic radiation, but the Moon and the 5 Planets do not.............

......A very disingenuous claim was made that 18th Century astronomers discovered Planets mathematically by attempting to factor in gravity to predict orbital patterns, and not by "ray-casting."

If 18th Century astronomers had Vacuum Tubes or Transistors or Microchips, they would not have needed to rely on gravity, since those modern inventions lend themselves to devices that can detect electromagnetic radiation.

Principle #3:

Traditional Astrology is based upon Planets casting Light.

Granted, only Sun generates Light, however the Moon and the 5 Planets reflect Light, plus other electromagnetic radiation from the Sun (and Fixed Stars).

Factors that affect the ability of Moon and the 5 Planets to reflect light are:

Size of magnetosphere
Surface Albedo
Surface Reflectivity
Atmospheric Reflectivity
Distance from Sun
Relationship by Physical Location with respect to Sun

Principle #4:

Aspects between Moon and the 5 Planets strengthen or weaken the intensity of electromagnetic generation

The basic principle in Traditional Astrology is that a trine is strong and positive; a sextile weak and positive; a square weak and negative; while an opposition is strong and negative.

"However, it was decided to investigate the effects of all the planets from Mercury to Saturn, instead of only the major planets [Jupiter and Saturn] as they had done. The same heliocentric angular relationships of 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees were used and dates when any two or more planets were separated by one of these angles were recorded. Investigation quickly showed there was positive correlation between these planetary angles and transatlantic short-wave signal variations. Radio signals showed a tendency to become degraded within a day or two of planetary configurations of the type being studied. However, all configurations did not correspond to signal degradation. Certain configurations showed better correlation than others [60 degrees and 120 degrees]."

p.421 Nelson

"It is worthy of note that in 1949 when Jupiter and Saturn were spaced by 120 degrees, and solar activity was at a maximum, radio signals averaged of far higher quality for the year than in 1951 with Jupiter and Saturn at 180 degrees and a considerable decline in solar activity. In other words, the average quality curve of radio signals followed the cycle curve between Jupiter and Saturn rather than the sunspot curve."

p.424 Nelson

Okay, so it took 2,000+ years to figure out what people knew thousands of years ago....I guess modern Science deserves a pat on the back for their re-discovery, so they don't throw a temper tantrum and feel unloved.

Principle #5

Electromagnetic radiation affects People (all mammals).

gamma rays: cause cancer and mutations --- gammas were the driving force behind Evolution on Earth...as Natural Background Radiation (gammas and x-rays) has decreased, so too has the pace of Evolution

X-rays: damage to cells

Ultra-Violet (UV): damages surface cells (including skin cancer) and causes blindness

Visible Light: Our beautiful colors cause increased rates of premature skin aging and skin cancer

Infrared: skin burns

Microwaves: internal heating of body tissue, memory loss, cancer

Radio waves: harm body cells, prevalence of migraine, headache disorders, insomnia, frequent nose bleed, increase in white blood cells, tinnitus

Note how in particular, Radio Waves attack the Head/Brain.

When we say Radio Waves, we're talking about wave-lengths larger than microwaves, which are...

FM Radio --- includes portable phones, cell-phones, tablets, laptops et al

VHF Television
UHF Television
Short-Wave
AM Band --- and at the far end of the AM band is VLF (Very Low Frequency), ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) and ULF (Ultra-Low Frequency).

Okay, so putting it altogether, in Traditional Astrology, there are multiple sources generating electromagnetic radiation, including the Sun, Moon and 5 Planets, plus multiples sources reflecting electromagnetic radiation, and even fine-tuning that electromagnetic radiation through aspects like the sextile (60°), square (90°), trine (120°) and opposition (180°), and that affects Humans.

That's the science part.....

....Putting it all together....

The Traditional System is very simple: Celestial bodies which have sufficient mass to produce electromagnetic radiation, and also to reflect electromagnetic radiation from the Sun and from the other Planets to Earth and produce a noticeable affect proven by Science are used.

Celestial bodies that do not have sufficient mass to produce electromagnetic radiation, or to reflect electromagnetic radiation, or are sufficiently distant as to not interfere with electromagnetic radiation on Earth are ignored.

Telescopes are immaterial and irrelevant.

Telescopes do not cause Planets to produce electromagnetic radiation; telescopes do not cause Planets to reflect electromagnetic radiation; and finally, telescopes neither enhance nor degrade electromagnetic radiation.

Debunked.

Regarding the Transfer of Light (and Collection of Light): these are key concepts used in all charts in Traditional Astrology. In fact, I would even go as far as to suggest that what people think of as influence by the Outers are actually Transfers/Collections.

The number of threads on the Horary Forum on Collection/Transfer are too numerous too count.

Those concepts are critical to correct interpretation of Mundane and Mundane Event Charts (especially Forensic Charts).

Another Straw Man Fallacy introduced by when a poster suggested that Traditional Astrologers make use of a number factors that are not "visible to the naked eye."

The Argument: Pluto is not visible to the naked eye and that, plus several other factors prove Pluto has no affect on People.

The Deception: Traditionals use Bounds/Terms & Faces which are not visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: Traditionals claim that Bounds/Terms & Faces modify the Planet, but have no affect on People.

*********
The Deception: Traditionals use House Cusps which are not visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: Traditionals never claimed that House Cusps have power. House Cusps are an arbitrary system (at present) assisting in delineation by showing where certain Topical Matters spill over into other Topical Matters. Traditionals never claimed House Cusps affect affect People.

************
The Deception: Traditionals use Arabian Parts which are not visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: Lots/Parts are mathematical calculations possibly originating from Lagrange Points. It is also possible that Lots/Parts are rooted in Planetary Ascendants. Traditionals have never claimed that Lots/Parts affect on People. The Lots/Parts only provide additional information on a Topic.

***************
The Deception: Traditionals use the Moon's Nodes, which are not visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: The Head (North Node) and Tail (South Node) modify a Planet's condition, but they do not modify People.

***********
The Deception: Traditionals use Signs, which are not visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: Signs modify a Planet's condition, but they do not modify People.

***********
The Deception: Traditionals use Degree Points such as Azieme (for disease), Pitted, Fortunate, Eminent, Empty, Dark, Shadowy and Bright, none of which are visible to the naked eye; and therefore the Traditional view fails and they should accept Pluto.

The Reality: Degree Points modify a Planet's condition, but they do not modify People.

I hope we're clear on that now.

Another deceitful argument is the use of Fixed Stars.

Fixed Stars modify a Planet or Chart Point, but do not affect People. As it stands, the output of electromagnetic radiation in all forms from Algol, whether it be x-rays, gammas, ultra-violet, the color spectrum, infrared, microwave, radar, short-wave or long-wave is 10 times that of the Sun.

Do all Fixed Stars modify Planets? No, and there is no doubt some astrologers of both persuasions go way overboard with Fixed Star Stupidity.

An absurd suggestion was made that Traditionalists reject Pluto and other Bodies, because they do not figure into a Rulership Scheme.

Signs and Triplicities modify a Planet...but not People.

How a Planet functions depends on whether the Planet is Exalted, Domiciled, in-Sect Triplicity, Peregrine, in Detriment or in Fall. Those conditions are determined by Signs.

It is illogical and incredibly unscientific to claim that some Celestial Bodies are modified by Signs, and some are not.....


This points out the main flaw in Modern Astrology.

Moderns arbitrarily choose to accept or reject the use of other Planetary Bodies without any basis in fact, logic, reason or science.

Traditionalists do not arbitrarily reject the use of other Celestial Bodies, instead, Traditionalists universally apply science, logic and reason, based on whether a Celestial Body has the mass to generate electromagnetic radiation, and the ability to reflect light, and that it affects Earth and the People who inhabit Earth.....


....There is a Cause-and-Effect Relationship. The Cause is Electromagnetic Radiation, the Effect is how it interferes, relates, intones, conditions, or otherwise affects the Human Brain. Due to similarities in brain structure, it could affect all mammals, or at least those mammals that are "higher order" (whales, dolphins, porpoises, sea cows, sea lions, dogs, cats, horses etc).

Science can barely explain how the brain works, much less determine external or extrinsic factors that might affect the brain.

In spite of the fact that the Traditional View has been fully explained, ad infinitum ad nauseum, it is put forth by some that our view of the Solar System is outmoded....it is not.

We acknowledge the existence of the Outer Planets (and Asteroids and such), because they exist.

However, based on the aforementioned scientific evidence, there is no proof they impact People.

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Pluto has a real affect on People. You have yet to present any evidence.

Maybe when you all agree on what Pluto actually means, and can consistently delineated Pluto in charts, then perhaps we'll have a basis to discuss the matter.

We are past the point of talking.

Talk is cheap. Where's the proof?

We know how the Traditional Planets act in certain Signs, and because we do, it allows us to make both judgments and predictions.

No one has been able to demonstrate how any of the Asteroids, Planetoids, Centaurs or Outer Planets consistently act in any charts of any kind.

Remember that the sole reason Astrology exists is to predict the Fate of Kings and Kingdoms. That fact that it may also be used to determine the fate of businesses, relationships, things and people does not alter the reality that Astrology was created to predict....Future Events.

If you want to predict Weekly Unemployment Claims for the United States, or to predict the Monthly Employment Situation, all you need is Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Lunar Ascendant (the Lot of Fortune).

Try to use Asteroids, Uranus, Neptun or Pluto and you'll fail...sure...you'll get lucky every once in a Blue Moon, because even a broken clock tells the correct time twice each day.

So...a little less talk....show, don't tell.

JUPITERASC
08-24-2013, 09:00 PM
I know that's why it was only half to one sentence :surprised:. I like this thread unfortunately, it was moved to traditional forum. :crying: So I had to speak very carefully.
Regarding the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' poyi, obviously I would agree that there is both 'good' AND 'evil' in life
and so far as traditional astrology is concerned
then 'the two traditional malefics' are Mars and Saturn

The two benefics traditionally are Venus and Jupiter :smile:

Of course there are more layers to add, but basically obviously since BOTH good AND evil exist in anyone's life,
THEN it's describable using astrology

Linzul
08-25-2013, 07:06 AM
It is not.

The 11th House represents community groups. The 12th House is the derived 2nd House to the 11th House, meaning that the 12th House is the second House from the 11th House.

Since the 2nd House signifies wealth and finances, regardless, then for all community based groups of the 11th House, the 12th House signifies the wealth and finances of those groups, but charity would actually come from the 6th House, the opposite of the 12th, since the 6th House is the derived 8th House of the 11th House, representing income from other sources.

That's all I have to say about that.

I almost quoted the entire post just to make people scroll through it, but I thought better of it. Deserves a slow clap or something, that was a lot of info and I read every word. I think the internet is the enemy of in many ways regarding lesser known topics such as astrology, google is great for "Virgos are prissy perfectionists!" and other such Cosmo magazine gems but not much else.

poyi
08-25-2013, 07:35 AM
What Bob said is correct that is the way traditional astrologer see 12th house as the income of 11th house Community. I don't have problem with that. In modern astrology, people will just directly say 12th house rules Charity, that is also fine for me.

Traditional astrologers and Modern astrologers think very different in a lot of ways. I am more toward the Modern astrology for sure. I do have both side of textbooks at home though (I have 90 books and waiting more shipping). I often cross references both schools of astrology.

Ptolemy, William Lilly are both traditional astrology representatives many predictive method are based on them but yet some traditional astrology members don't agree with these teachers. So sometime I really wonder who is good enough for the traditional astrologer these days...

I think I had enough of arguments in this thread. Is time for me to go now.:wink:

*emma*
08-25-2013, 02:50 PM
Well... I gave you the details with references. I can't help to you read them for you.

The simple answer is the original people (the ancient, Greeks, Indians, Babylonian, Egyptians, even the Mayans) they created and designed Astrology, the symbols they chose to use based on the marking of Seasons. To them Sun is the Good God, and the one who ate the Sun away (shorten Sunlight) in Winter time was considered to be the Evil God, the marking of death of all plants and decrease numbers of animals and birth of animals. Simple. Read it yourself.

You have to look back why people used to think that way. To majority of the people in the Past, the king, the authoritative people, the governors abused the general public, even in modern time is still the same the misuse of power and status. Power and Status are ruled by Saturn, so since the ancient time, people psychological link the both together. If you study the history of demons particularly in Western culture, Goat has always been used as the symbol of Evil.

There are too many resources available for you to read. I don't have I have any more patience for this topic for you.


The operative words being, look back why people used to thnk that way. This is 2013 and not millenia ago. For anyone to infer winter is evil in this day, is not worthy of comment.

In general abuse and abuse of power is not solely a saturn thing by any means.
You might want to read Liz Greenes Saturn a new look at an old devil, quote enlightening and from all I read, the positives of Saturn now overwhelm the old discredited negatives. Granted, some in some cultures are stuck in limbo with superstitions and fears of witches, demons and ghouls, something which debilitates life, all that requires is research and education to dispel. Who would want to be terrified by non entities? Who benefits? Rhetorical question, dont need an answer.

PS Bob, thank you for your awesome insight, knowledge and explanations of so much. respect.

JUPITERASC
08-25-2013, 03:15 PM
I almost quoted the entire post just to make people scroll through it, but I thought better of it. Deserves a slow clap or something, that was a lot of info and I read every word.

I think the internet is the enemy of in many ways regarding lesser known topics such as astrology, google is great for "Virgos are prissy perfectionists!" and other such Cosmo magazine gems but not much else.
The internet is certainly full of conflicting and contradictory information on many subjects, including astrology, which causes confusion :smile:

.....Yes, well stated.

It is important to distinguish "optimum time"
from
"best time,"
since they are not necessarily the same thing....
Exactly. the "optimum time" - according to planetary configurations of an Electional chart -
to contact a client
could be at what is for them at that moment, an inappropriate time
....for whatever reason
THEREFORE
An electional astrologer uses the "best time"

The "optimum time" for a purchase could be when the shop is however unfortunately closed
So one uses the "best time" that can be found available during opening hours :smile:

chris10
08-26-2013, 01:17 AM
Am i living in another country?
Obviously ... unless you flunked Modern Greek History in Highschool....
Just kidding :wink:

It was my mistake. Sorry about that.
I didn't define what I meant by recent years ...

I definitely didn't mean the 90s.

I apologize I apologize I apologize (it's with a "z" in the States and with an "s" in Britain ... don't accuse me of not spelling it correctly)

I checked your profile for your chart. I didn't find your chart there. I don't have time to check your posts to find it.

It doesn't matter, you are probably very young, so you surely wouldn't know.

Anyway check your History Books on Modern Greek History.

The fact is that my mother attended elementary school, high school, university
from 1960 - 1976. Three of her teachers were also priests.

My grandfather attended elementary school and high school 1940- 1952. Almost all his teachers were also priests.

I could even ask for teachers-priests' names if you are interested, the year they taught and the schools. Both, my mother and grandfather have excellent memory.

Here is a link that is enlightening

http://olympia.gr/2012/06/03/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AF/


Σε περίπτωση λοιπόν που ένας ιερέας είναι ξαφνικά εργαζόμενος θα μπορεί να εργαστεί με το ράσο του; Αν είναι δάσκαλος ή γιατρός τότε θα μπορεί γιατί μέχρι και σήμερα κάτι τέτοιο ισχύει. (Εκτός κι αν στην περίπτωση του δασκάλου το νέο πολυπολιτισμικό σχολείο θεωρήσει ότι το ράσο προσβάλλει όσα παιδιά είναι αλλόθρησκα.) Τι θα γίνει όμως στην περίπτωση που ένας ιερέας για να εξασφαλίσει τα προς το ζην αναλάβει μια θέση σε μια υπηρεσία, μια επιχείρηση ή ασκήσει ένα χειρωνακτικό επάγγελμα; Μήπως απαιτηθεί να βγάλει το ράσο προκειμένου να εξισωθεί με τους συναδέλφους και τους συνεργάτες του;

DreamingTheSeas
08-26-2013, 08:03 AM
I am 44, so my school years were from 1975 to 1987 and no priest-teacher on my years. But the fact that a priest who had a degree on maths or on philosophy e.t.c. could be a teacher is something i know. But he had to have a diplomat from university to be qualified, he was not teacher because he was priest.

hey chris 10, i hope that you were kidding when you apologized to me, otherwise i need to apologize for your apologizes and blah blah.

DreamingTheSeas
08-26-2013, 08:19 AM
.....



That's terrible, and wrong. It's like telling people it's okay to use the 11th House as career, reputation, standing and fame, when it's really the 10th House that signifies those things.

It's important for people to understand why things are the way they are.

Why is the 11th House Trust & Confidence?

Because the 11th House is the second House from the 10th House, and the 10th House is your career, reputation, standing, fame etc, so the 11th House is those things that support your career, reputation etc etc etc.

If you are going to be a leader of anything, whether its a prime minister or president, the CEO of a corporation, the president of a private corporate, a troop leader in the military, a manager, supervisor or foreperson at any business or factory, then....

...you must place your Trust & Confidence in people.

So, the 11th House is Friends? No, the 5th House is Friends, but the 11th House is Confidants.

.......



We all do, but you won't learn much using the wrong Houses, and when you've been around for a while, you'll realize there's nothing really new, rather it's just something else that's been repackaged.

Bob, could you please tell us about Houses and what they are? I think some of us are not having clear and we are a bit confused. Ok, I AM CONFUSED.
You said 5th house is Friends, since you came back (thanks for the comeback) you made it clear that gambling and sex and affairs or any other romantic stuff had nothing to do with 5th house. I got that. Now with friends and 5th house i'm confused again. Because i thought that 5th house is representing our children.

JUPITERASC
08-26-2013, 12:59 PM
.....I think there's a misunderstanding of what "good" and "evil" actually mean in Traditional Astrology.

The Benefic Planets -- Jupiter & Venus -- when well-placed and in good condition
result in attainment with little or no effort....

everything is easy....

everything, whether its gaining wealth, attaining fame, having children, raising children, dying, recovering from injuries or illnesses, and in the 8th House for a woman, the ease of child-birth and such.

That is the essence of good.....Beneficence.



The Malefic Planets -- Saturn & Mars -- when well-placed and in good condition
still permit the Native to attain things, but only through difficulties, struggles, and other misfortunes....
it's never easy.

Should the Malefics have reign over Wealth, sure, the Native will get wealth,
but in doing so, ruin their relationships with spouses, children, lose their friends along the way,

or they might even lose their health...
they might even die because of it.

And that is true for everything in the chart ---
if they control 10th House Matters, you might be famous, but only through hard work and sacrifice, and probably a lot of sorrow;

children, it might be difficult to have children or when you do, they bring you sorrow;

you'll have relationships, but always with difficulties and troubles.

That is the essence of evil..Maleficence.....
Clearly then, "good" and "evil" are based on planetary placement and planetary condition

So

planets may be in good condition
and thus able to bring easy/"good" results that are favorable to the native

or

planets may be in bad condition
and thus able to bring difficult/"bad" results that are unfavorable to the native

Thanks for the elucidation
btw - which JMO clearly illustrates that Traditional Astrology's duo of allegedly baleful malefics i.e. Mars and Saturn

might even 'be the good guys' of a natal chart

BECAUSE the results they bring to the native
are entirely dependent on their condition and placement in an individual's natal chart :smile:

*emma*
08-26-2013, 03:18 PM
@ Bob

perhaps Liz Greenes writing was not a good example, It was the first thng that came into my head when thinking about positive lights on Saturn instead of the woe betide you usual stuff. Must say I found her hard to follow/quite unnecessarily dense, but that was the only reason.....perhaps careful what you read is better advice
:biggrin:

I hadnt realised Jung was such a damage agent.....but one thing I have learnt from experience is the theory and meaning of synchronicity can mess people up! JMHO

wilsontc
08-26-2013, 06:04 PM
All,

I have deleted the attacks and the responses to the attacks. Even though those posts contained astrology, they are against the rules of the AW Forum. If you want to repost your information without attacks, you are welcome to. In order to decide if something is an attack, imagine the comment directed at you. If you would be insulted, angered, threatened, etc. then the post is an attack. I will continue to delete posts as needed to ensure that members are not attacking other members. It's OK to disagree, just find a way to do it without personally attacking others.

Back on topic,

Tim

Linzul
08-27-2013, 07:10 AM
Linzul, in answer to your question:

a rule specifically for the Traditional forum and for the Traditional forum only
is there BECAUSE traditionally, the outer planets are not needed for chart delineation.

Today, as in ancient times, the VISIBLE planets that are visible in the night skies are
Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and the Sun is visible during the day.
These are the 7 Visible Planets that are easily seen by those with normal vision
without any necessity for artificial aids such as telescopes.

The 7 visible planets have been used in chart delineation for at least two thousand years.

Clay tablets confirm that the 7 visible planets have been observed for at least approximately ten thousand years...
and in fact the Mayan Calendar's use of observations of the planet Venus provides stunning accuracy

The outers were 'discovered'/'noticed' recently so their use is an experimental part of modern astrology,
also there is no consensus amongst modern astrologers regarding their 'effects'.

There is no mention of the outers in Traditional astrological texts written by ancient masters of astrology,
therefore obviously there is simply no need for their use on a Traditional forum.
The following table has been used by astrologers for at least one and a half thousand years
as a Study Aid in the determination of planetary dignity and debility - notice that the outers are entirely absent

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif
source of the above table: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

I have to ask since Traditional astrology is new to me then how to interpret empty houses? My 8th and 5th are empty, and searching has brought up the planetary ruler of the sign the house falls on. For my 8th it's Mercury which is easy enough, but 5th is Pisces. Presumably ruled by Jupiter by Traditional standards? Would a Traditional astrologer even interpret an empty House this way, planetary governance by sign or is google messing with me? Thanks for the chart!!


Related bummer: I had my spiritual side "all figured out" with 5th house ruler Moon aspects laid out on a Modern chart. Back to the drawing board, but is it safe to assume the 9th House and religion are tied together more academically and 5th is more about the spiritual side of religion?

JUPITERASC
08-27-2013, 01:38 PM
I have to ask since Traditional astrology is new to me then how to interpret empty houses? My 8th and 5th are empty, and searching has brought up the planetary ruler of the sign the house falls on. For my 8th it's Mercury which is easy enough, but 5th is Pisces. Presumably ruled by Jupiter by Traditional standards? Would a Traditional astrologer even interpret an empty House this way, planetary governance by sign or is google messing with me? Thanks for the chart!!


Related bummer: I had my spiritual side "all figured out" with 5th house ruler Moon aspects laid out on a Modern chart. Back to the drawing board, but is it safe to assume the 9th House and religion are tied together more academically and 5th is more about the spiritual side of religion?
5th being Pisces
Jupiter is traditional domicile ruler of Pisces
with Venus the Exalted ruler of Pisces
so the sign and house location of natal Jupiter and natal Venus
as well as their aspects to other natal planets,
all have an influence regarding matters of Pisces 5th house :smile:

tsmall
08-27-2013, 11:12 PM
I have to ask since Traditional astrology is new to me then how to interpret empty houses? My 8th and 5th are empty, and searching has brought up the planetary ruler of the sign the house falls on. For my 8th it's Mercury which is easy enough, but 5th is Pisces. Presumably ruled by Jupiter by Traditional standards? Would a Traditional astrologer even interpret an empty House this way, planetary governance by sign or is google messing with me? Thanks for the chart!!


Related bummer: I had my spiritual side "all figured out" with 5th house ruler Moon aspects laid out on a Modern chart. Back to the drawing board, but is it safe to assume the 9th House and religion are tied together more academically and 5th is more about the spiritual side of religion?

This is a very good question, and my recommendation would be to create a new thread restating it. That way it isn't buried on page four or five of a thread about the 9th house. Likely, you aren't the only one who would like to see it answered. :smile:

*emma*
08-27-2013, 11:33 PM
5th being Pisces
Jupiter is traditional domicile ruler of Pisces
with Venus the Exalted ruler of Pisces
so the sign and house location of natal Jupiter and natal Venus
as well as their aspects to other natal planets,
all have an influence regarding matters of Pisces 5th house :smile:

Well you learn somethng new everyday, that is the first time I have read that you should consider the exalted ruler of a sign of a house in its interpretation

Claire19
08-28-2013, 03:59 AM
"If Venus were in the 9th house and in her own domicile or exaltation,
the native will be a famous hermit,
and this most strongly if Jupiter aspected by a good aspect"

Abu Bakr ON NATIVITIES


Mother Theresa
aka The Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
born 26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997
was an Albanian born, Indian Roman Catholic Religious Sister.

9th House Leo Venus
note Jupiter in Libra on MC in good aspect with Venus by sextile :smile:
A famous hermit??? An oxymoron. Venus in the 9th relates to higher learning, foreign travel and contacts, higher laws and our belief systems.
None of which relates to a famous anything really, necessarily.

Mother Teresa was a Virgo which is typical for a nun or a virgin which she undoubtedly was. She had her MC ruler sextile Jupiter for religious matters and spending her money on it. She was from a wealthy family.

JUPITERASC
08-28-2013, 10:46 AM
A famous hermit??? An oxymoron. Venus in the 9th relates to higher learning, foreign travel and contacts, higher laws and our belief systems.
None of which relates to a famous anything really, necessarily.

Mother Teresa was a Virgo which is typical for a nun or a virgin which she undoubtedly was. She had her MC ruler sextile Jupiter for religious matters and spending her money on it. She was from a wealthy family.
On the contrary, hermits are in general famed not only in their local area but also in some cases
- given today's news media and swift communication internet systems -
often famed worldwide
AND YET MANY WHO DELIBERATELY SEEK FAME, IRONICALLY REMAIN UNKNOWN :smile:


Mother Theresa, a famous hermit, a woman who is well documented IN NEWS MEDIA
– THEREFORE FAMOUS -
as having spent decades of her adult life in the slums of Calcutta attending to the dying, those 'forgotten people', frequently homeless, considered as 'human trash', may have been born into a wealthy family, however her entire worldly possessions during her decades as a nun were two saris and a bucket. She famously wore one sari while the other having been washed in the bucket was being dried in the hot sun of India, her homeland.

Mother Theresa was famous for doing what most others would not do
i.e. She left home at age 18 and joined the Sisters of Loreto as a missionary nun and never again saw her mother or sister.
Mother Theresa devoted her entire adult life as a nun, to seeking out the filthiest most disease ridden areas of Indian cities, mostly Calcutta, and nursing the dying and diseased inhabitants. She did not fulfil the popular notion of a hermit by 'living in a cave in the mountains' but she was a hermit.

QUOTE

'….Mother Teresa founded Missionaries of Charity, a Roman Catholic religious congregation, which 2012 consisted of over 4,500 sisters active in 133 countries. They run hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis; soup kitchens; children's and family counseling programmes; orphanages; and schools. Members of the order must adhere to the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and the fourth vow, to give "Wholehearted and Free service to the poorest of the poor". Mother Teresa received 1979 Nobel Peace Prize, was beatified 2003 - the third step toward possible sainthood - giving her the title "Blessed Teresa of Calcutta"....'


'….During her lifetime, Mother Teresa was named 18 times yearly Gallup most admired man/woman poll as one of ten women worldwide Americans admired most, finishing first several times in 1980s and 1990s. In 1999, Americans ranked her first in Gallup's List of Most Widely Admired People of the 20th Century. In that survey, she out-polled all other volunteered answers by a wide margin, and was in first place in all major demographic categories except the very young. Privately, for nearly 50 years until the end of her life, Mother Teresa experienced doubts/ struggles over her religious beliefs - "She felt no presence of God whatsoever" said her postulator Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk....'

JMO it is interesting that Mother Theresa wrote the following statement in a letter, thus proving that a belief in God is unnecessary in order to do good deeds


'...."Where is my faith? Even deep down ... there is nothing but emptiness and darkness ... If there be God—please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul ... How painful is this unknown pain—I have no Faith. Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal, ... What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true" ....'


Another famous hermit is Gautama Buddha – who was born into a wealthy home as an Indian Prince, yet abandoned fabulous wealth, as well as a beautiful young wife and family for a hermits existence – Gautama Buddha is famed for having sat under a Bo-tree in the wilderness until he famously attained enlightenment. Gautama Buddha was followed by many disciples who followed him for his teaching. Many hermits have a following. They remain hermits. Many hermits are famous.

poyi
08-28-2013, 11:05 AM
Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.catholiconline.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5716

"( Eremites , "inhabitants of a desert (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=3788) ", from the Greek eremos ), also called anchorites, were men who fled the society (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=10913) of their fellow-men to dwell alone in retirement. Not all of them, however, sought so complete a solitude as to avoid absolutely any intercourse with their fellow-men. Some took a companion with them, generally a disciple (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=3895) ; others remained close to inhabited places, from which they procured their food. This kind of religious life (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7101) preceded the community life (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7101) of the cenobites. Elias (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4223) is considered the precursor of the hermits (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5716) in the Old Testament . St. (http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=152)John (http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=50) the Baptist lived like them in the desert. Christ, too, led this kind of life (http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7101) when he retired into the mountains....."


http://www.hermitary.com/faqs.html

What is a hermit?
A hermit is a person who lives apart from society. Traditionally, this has meant living alone and self-sufficiently, but not always. The word "hermit" is derived from the Greek eremia for "desert," in reference to the Desert Fathers of the fourth century; and eremos came to mean solitary. The Latin equivalent is solitarius.
The term recluse is often taken as a synonym but it has a more behavioral sense to it, while the term "hermit" often retains its deliberate, even spiritual sense. For example, the famed eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica defined "hermit" as "a solitary, one who withdraws from all intercourse with other human beings in order to live a life of religious contemplation." However, the American Heritage Dictionary defines "hermit" as "a person who has withdrawn from society and lives a solitary existence; a recluse."

eternalautumn
09-16-2013, 07:55 PM
Oops, just found this thread!

The 9th House (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58841)

TamaraL
10-13-2013, 11:02 PM
I have my Sun(Pisces) in the 9th House, I didn't have any religious upbringing in my childhood.Both my parents were very spiritual, caring, well-traveled, educated (as this house also reflects education + travels) but they didn't "believe" in a specific God or raising me + my brother to believe or follow a certain religion. I don't consider myself religious, but I am spiritual by nature. I don't know if this is considered also atheism in some cultures..but yes I feel I am responsible for my soul + mission.I breathe in order to learn and connect with other. Also I read somewhere that the 9th House reflects long journeys...Any other suggestions would be welcome. THANKS :)

midnight sun
10-27-2013, 07:40 PM
My 9th house is Gemini Deleted by Moderator

My belief is very complex, it constantly changes. I was atheist for a while. In my country people are mostly Muslim but I just feel connection to its Sufism side. I'm more into spirituality than dogmatic religions and I'm bored of rules and rituals to do everyday. I believe in family karma/past karma and unity. I don't want to choose a belief, I would like to believe all of them at the same time.

Nadineday
10-28-2013, 02:25 AM
Dear Kimbermoon ,
In the past few months I have been experiencing a state of contemplation and growth in a multitude of psychological and Spiritual states. I was speaking with a friend moments before I logged into this site and came across this validating piece of writing. In addition to your planets and placements I have similar aspects. I have a Moon/Taurus in the 9th, deleted by moderator and a Jupiter in Pisces as well as Sun/Mars/Venus in Scorpio. Subsequently, after experiencing insightful revelations into lessons I had been working on for at least 6 years I came across this essay which miraculously tied rite into an epic moment I needed to solidify just then. I. would like to share part of my story. About twenty years ago, while seeking council, I started studying Astrology and learned I possessed a psychological mind and a humanitarian heart. I became Christian in 2007 and was deeply dedicated to the dogma. My story is long and arduous so I will spare you the major details, however I want to tell a brief part of my history so I can share the immensity of my success. Growing up abused and traumatized I had a lot of work to do before I could fathom the idea of pursuing my goal of becoming a psychologist. With all my dysfunctional thinking and anger, compassion escaped me. So My dilemma was, I had all of the cognizant tools to start my journey but radiated with an arrogant ethnocentric view forcing my ideas on others. Before starting college last spring I felt hopeless and fearful of the truth of the hate that dwelled within. I mean how could I be so delusional to think I could help others with this warped sense of righteousness. Although plagued, I persevered with faith. I am currently attending a Cultural Anthropology and Comparative Religion, Philosophy class which I was apprehensive to attend because of my Christianity. I did not want to be influenced away from the Church. I do believe and Know Jesus Christ but struggled regardless. Before recently I was unaware of terms such as ethnocentric and my whole being permeated with it. Thankfully my heart has been opened to accepting others for who and where they are. I truly was unable to get to a genuine place where I could love others. I look forward to continuing my education pursuing Christ, Psychology, Astrology and loving people.

CapAquaPis
11-02-2013, 07:46 AM
In my chart, Pisces is my 9th house and the planet Mercury is in it, so the planet of communication gave me an ability to share and discuss religious views I have to those who are interested. Pisces like Sagittarius are ruled by planets Jupiter (Zeus, the leading god of the gods) and Neptune.

Christianity thrived to become a major world religion in the last astrological age: the Age of Pisces, and we're now in the Age of Aquarius (yet there's a Capricornian element, since the two signs share the planets Saturn and Uranus) symbolized a more openness toward religion and into spirituality.

The sign Sagittarius is associated with December (but in astrology, the sun is in this sign from Nov. 23-Dec. 21), the month allegedly when Jesus Christ was born to some theologians attempted to find the exact date of his birth, however the sidereal astrologers placed Sagittarius from Dec. 17 to Jan. 15. Also Dec. 21 is the beginning of winter (solstice) in the northern hemisphere, the Roman holiday of Saturnalia was Dec. 25 when the sun is in Capricorn (or 2,000 years ago, in the sign of Aquarius).

Sidereal astrology realigned Aquarius in where tropical Pisces is (Feb. 14-Mar. 11), the other sign (12th house) ruled by Jupiter, again represent the role of religion, but Pisces is more on the mystical side of things in regards to faith. The 9th and 12th houses stands for religion and mysticism, while the 10th and 11th is spirituality and epiphany (Capricorn's attributes).

And going through web sites on astrology, I find one proposed by a known astrologer stated tropical Aquarius is redesignated Sagittarius, the 9th sign. In that version of astrology, Aquarius runs from Mar. 26-Apr. 20 for those born after 1990. For the two signs (and houses) representing religious and spiritual views, Aquarius should be Sagittarius in that POV.

Rosie7
11-06-2013, 08:39 PM
Natal Saturn in 9th w/Aries cusp. I do not believe in God and for anyone interested, this clip suggests that monotheistic religions are a perpetuated myth constructed on astronomical and astrological phenomenon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiuqheVn72A

Caro
11-10-2013, 06:01 PM
seems I have come late to this party........

Jupiter in 9th house in cancer. Moon in pisces in 4th. interested in religion and how history has been shaped by religion. did think of studying religion at one point and again the similarities in each of the faiths is not surprising to me. raised a catholic but don't practice. whilst I respect people's beliefs I am of the view that there is only one source and what ever tribe we ascribe to on this earth - we all end up in the same place! However do remember being told by someone on this site that this was 'wet' thinking.

very interesting video link(in post before mine) I think the Christ energy is just a vibration. the christos principle to raise the vibration from the solar plexus (money and power dominated) to the heart vibration - love and peace and universal (catholic) love. but agree somehow this has all got twisted and manipulated along the way. Islam means peace but .....

good to know that we have until 2150 to get this right cos so far we as humans seemed to have failed on this one. Dismally.

Clinton Soule
11-10-2013, 06:16 PM
Caro states:

Jupiter in 9th house in cancer. Moon in pisces in 4th. interested in religion and how history has been shaped by religion. did think of studying religion at one point and again the similarities in each of the faiths is not surprising to me. raised a catholic but don't practice. whilst I respect people's beliefs I am of the view that there is only one source and what ever tribe we ascribe to on this earth - we all end up in the same place! However do remember being told by someone on this site that this was 'wet' thinking.

Well As I understand the three largest religions on the planet come about because of a Chaldean by the name of Abraham who started Judaism, from which Christianity and Islam made detours!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/images/merovingios08_02.jpg

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/merovingios_08.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/merovingios_08.htm)

By the way is there any wonder that Judaism, Islam and some Christians embrace astrology as Abraham and his offspring were so much into astrology as it predates the Hebrew faith?:rightful:
.

Caro
11-10-2013, 06:20 PM
Caro states:



Well As I understand the three largest religions on the planet come about because of a Chaldean by the name of Abraham who started Judaism, from which Christianity and Islam made detours!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/images/merovingios08_02.jpg

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/merovingios_08.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/merovingios_08.htm)

By the way is there any wonder that Judaism, Islam and some Christians embrace astrology as Abraham and his offspring were so much into astrology as it predates the Hebrew faith?:rightful:
.

ha ha ha ha ha ha.
and here they come........ the tribal war fare begins. 'we are the chosen ones. no says the other tribe it is us. , For Christ sake kids will you just stop it!!!!!

Clinton Soule
11-10-2013, 07:04 PM
This is puzzling me about this woman's lord of the 7th in the natal 9th:

[deleted overly sexualized picture against forum rules - Moderator]


This is said to be her horoscope:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4245&page=19


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Saturnian http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=514454#post514454)
Are you able to post her please by any chance? I seem to struggle inputting the coordinates of her birth place. Alternatively could you reveal the location of her birth place please?

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2liybgk.jpg
__________________


Now in her map, :jupiter: is in terms of :mars: at 29 deg. :taurus:.

I have known males with Jupiter ruing their natal 7th and posited in the 9th whom both went to a university abroad, 9th house, and married a woman of foreign extraction, whom were not moral by any of the major world religions standards yet recognized the moral decay of their own nation.

Miss Karla like what happened to King David :sad::devil:and Samson:whistling:(their fall over a woman), has her Venus that is hitting me hard, a great aspect!:love:

So I'm wondering, as she most likely will marry or co-habit with a foreign man(9H) but will she with N. Node :northnode::conjunct:Dec., cjt her descendant and that Jupiter in tau at 29{terms of Mars}:devil: degrees, will she eventually eventually become moral conscious?

I mean she appears anything but into morality in the Judeo-Christian standard and I think she having her lord of the 7th in terms of mars:devil: is most likely into making her own rules and defying any moral precepts!

We all know studying astrology that there are many potential relationships shown in the aspects between two, thus that is a factor why so many extra marital affairs are made, yet one's moral nature is exhibited by their 9th house make-up and that of Jupiter who is the natural ruler of the 9th.

But I question why she is as she is and with the mutable cross will she make needed changes in order to have a traditional union?:rightful:
.

Lucypur
11-15-2013, 08:33 AM
My Jupiter is in Leo in the 9th house.

Caro
11-23-2013, 10:36 AM
there are lots of other faiths and philosophies in the world, Hindu, buddhisms practiced by billions. we are so western centric.
They to, embrace astrology, much more than western societies and the ideologies that go with the west.

socrates
12-24-2013, 03:55 PM
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/2013/12/24/beautiful-workability-of-the-firdaria-example/comment-page-1/#comment-720 (http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/2013/12/24/beautiful-workability-of-the-firdaria-example/comment-page-1/#comment-720)

firdaria and religion