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Zonark
07-16-2013, 11:07 PM
Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?

tsmall
07-16-2013, 11:16 PM
Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?

Hey Zonark, welcome to the dark side. :wink: Just kidding. I am curious what you are or have been reading?

Saturn does have positive qualities associated with it. Depending on a host of factors, chief among them sect, you can learn from the chart how Saturn will manefest. Keep in mind that Saturn isn't called the greater malefic for nothing though.

I have a several books with descriptions of Saturn's positive attributes. Give me a bit to find them for you...and in the meantime maybe someone more learned will come along and post an answer.

allie_b
07-16-2013, 11:19 PM
Saturn is the planet of maturity and conscientiousness. You're aware of time and its passing. Someone with a strong Saturn is traditionally more somber but also filled with common sense. It's hard in a sense to be young and watch the idiotic immaturity of peers around you, as you feel older when you're young. It's true what they say, that things get better with time. I have a strong Saturn in my chart and have grown to like it. I appreciate quality and refinement. It can be restrictive but I would rather have Saturn in my chart than something which makes me obnoxious or run roughshod over others. There's nothing wrong with being serious, considerate, polite and filled with common sense.

Zonark
07-16-2013, 11:46 PM
Hey Zonark, welcome to the dark side. :wink: Just kidding. I am curious what you are or have been reading?

Saturn does have positive qualities associated with it. Depending on a host of factors, chief among them sect, you can learn from the chart how Saturn will manefest. Keep in mind that Saturn isn't called the greater malefic for nothing though.

I have a several books with descriptions of Saturn's positive attributes. Give me a bit to find them for you...and in the meantime maybe someone more learned will come along and post an answer.

Well the only traditional astrologer I can definitely say based on what I've read who described Saturn as negative is William Lilly. In plenty of other traditional excerpts I've read though, Saturn is always described as 'malefic'.

tsmall
07-16-2013, 11:48 PM
All right, first up is Abu Ma'ashar. I need to keep the quote to 100 words per forum rules so I'll use ellipses. It comes from Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology as a translation of Abbrieviations of the Introduction. Bolded parts are my own emphasis.

But the nature of Saturn [is] malign, for he is cold and dry, melancholic, dim, stinking, gluttonous but still of good association...and when he shows provisions, he shows much; and when he takes away, he takes away much...but truth-telling, understanding,...an inheritor...occupied in knowledge...

Same book (Dykes' IA) this time quoting al-Qabisi

And if he were made fortunate, he will be of true esteem, taking the time to do things...And if he were fortunate (in assets) he signifies [of] ancient and lasting things, like real estate...And he signifies faraway foreign travels...

Valens has this to say

It puts into one's hands great ranks and distinguished positions, supervisions, management of other's property, and the fathership of other's children.

There's the three quotes I'm allowed, but you can see that Saturn has plenty of "good" attributed to him. :cool:

Zonark
07-16-2013, 11:49 PM
Saturn is the planet of maturity and conscientiousness. You're aware of time and its passing. Someone with a strong Saturn is traditionally more somber but also filled with common sense. It's hard in a sense to be young and watch the idiotic immaturity of peers around you, as you feel older when you're young. It's true what they say, that things get better with time. I have a strong Saturn in my chart and have grown to like it. I appreciate quality and refinement. It can be restrictive but I would rather have Saturn in my chart than something which makes me obnoxious or run roughshod over others. There's nothing wrong with being serious, considerate, polite and filled with common sense.

That seems like a good way to look at it but is it based on traditional understanding? I see qualities like that often attributed to Jupiter (politeness and good sense, at least in a cultural manner) but often Saturn is given descriptions like bestowing laziness, cowardice and cynicism. The descriptions I've read all seem wholly negative and the things you've attributed to Saturn here I've seen attributed to the other planets first.

I probably just haven't read nearly enough traditional material.

Sentient0ne
07-16-2013, 11:51 PM
Where you find Saturn is where you can best focus and assume responsibility. It's about form, discipline, responsiblity. As stated previously, it shows maturity. It's often called the taskmaster of the zodiac. That sounds negative, but many people lack self direction and discipline, so a taskmaster can assist with that process. Whether in the form of a parent, a teacher, a drill sargeant. They 'set us to task', showing us the path to responsibility and discipline that is required to succeed.

Zonark
07-16-2013, 11:58 PM
All right, first up is Abu Ma'ashar. I need to keep the quote to 100 words per forum rules so I'll use ellipses. It comes from Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology as a translation of Abbrieviations of the Introduction. Bolded parts are my own emphasis.



Same book (Dykes' IA) this time quoting al-Qabisi



Valens has this to say



There's the three quotes I'm allowed, but you can see that Saturn has plenty of "good" attributed to him. :cool:

I do see yes, it's not so much 'good' fortune as most people would offhandedly think of it, more a propensity to bestow opportunity in the guise of heavy responsibility?

tsmall
07-17-2013, 12:05 AM
Well the only traditional astrologer I can definitely say based on what I've read who described Saturn as negative is William Lilly. In plenty of other traditional excerpts I've read though, Saturn is always described as 'malefic'.

Ok, let's start with Lilly. What does he have to say about Saturn, when well dignified?

Quote from CA p. 58

Then he is profound in Imagination, in his Acts severe (*severe here as a synonym for austere), in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave (*grave here as a synonym for serious), in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions severe.

What is so horrible about that? In fact, this describes my grandfather perfectly. He was a wonderful, loving man of very few words, who took even the questions and debates of a child seriously. He wasn't very demonstrative of affection, but he was always willing to help someone in need...after careful consideration of both the person and the consequences. He also is the one who told me that the day you stop learning is the day you die...even if you continue to breathe for another 40 or 50 years.

Have you read the "negative" attributes of even the benefic planets? Sometimes, it is all to easy to miss the good in what has been written, especially since the language we use today is quite different from that of the past.

Also, have you completely delineated your Saturn using traditional methods?

Zonark
07-17-2013, 12:28 AM
Ok, let's start with Lilly. What does he have to say about Saturn, when well dignified?

Quote from CA p. 58



What is so horrible about that? In fact, this describes my grandfather perfectly. He was a wonderful, loving man of very few words, who took even the questions and debates of a child seriously. He wasn't very demonstrative of affection, but he was always willing to help someone in need...after careful consideration of both the person and the consequences. He also is the one who told me that the day you stop learning is the day you die...even if you continue to breathe for another 40 or 50 years.

Have you read the "negative" attributes of even the benefic planets? Sometimes, it is all to easy to miss the good in what has been written, especially since the language we use today is quite different from that of the past.

Also, have you completely delineated your Saturn using traditional methods?

Thank you for this Tsmall, looks like I've started out misunderstanding Saturn's place in traditional. It sounds like a very good planet to have as a chart ruler.

I haven't delineated it yet.

tsmall
07-17-2013, 01:01 AM
Thank you for this Tsmall, looks like I've started out misunderstanding Saturn's place in traditional. It sounds like a very good planet to have as a chart ruler.

I haven't delineated it yet.

Are you certain that Saturn is your Lord of the Geniture?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

I don't think it would be out of line for you to post your chart (anonymized if necessary) and see what traditional delineations you get.

As far as I know (and hey, I'm just a newbie too!) we are mostly concerned with Saturn's condition, sect, and position in the chart...from which we will look at the houses Saturn rules, and the houses he affects in order to actually predict events and themes. Not so much about whether Saturn is a taskmaster or teacher. Though I can say that Saturn could show you what you are most afraid of, and that isn't modern, although modern circles around the edges of it. Have you taken the skyscript tutorial on dignity and debility?

One thing I <from what I have observed/learned> believe is that one cannot learn traditional astrology from the www alone. If you want to start, eternalautumn just recently posted a thread made into a sticky with resources that are availble on the internet. (And why none of the rest of us thought of it is a complete mystery to me...) A decent book that at least explains in general the fundamental philosophies at the foundation of traditional astrology is On the Heavenly Spheres. Caveat that even when I finally purchased it I found a bunch of things I didn't agree with...but when I read Parker's Astrology I wasn't exactly floored either.

Gradually you can work into IA which I referenced above. As a text book I have found none better, simply because Benjamin Dykes takes the time to explain the etymology of the terms/words used, compares them between different texts/eras, and explains his own conclusions...kind of like when BobZ posts here. :whistling:

Edit to add...I got really, really lucky. Because here at AW, I found several people who were willing to answer questions and take a newbie under their wing. Kai, JUPITERASC, dr. farr...all have been most generous with their time and expertise. My point being that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. :)

Zonark
07-17-2013, 02:34 AM
Are you certain that Saturn is your Lord of the Geniture?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

I don't think it would be out of line for you to post your chart (anonymized if necessary) and see what traditional delineations you get.

As far as I know (and hey, I'm just a newbie too!) we are mostly concerned with Saturn's condition, sect, and position in the chart...from which we will look at the houses Saturn rules, and the houses he affects in order to actually predict events and themes. Not so much about whether Saturn is a taskmaster or teacher. Though I can say that Saturn could show you what you are most afraid of, and that isn't modern, although modern circles around the edges of it. Have you taken the skyscript tutorial on dignity and debility?

One thing I <from what I have observed/learned> believe is that one cannot learn traditional astrology from the www alone. If you want to start, eternalautumn just recently posted a thread made into a sticky with resources that are availble on the internet. (And why none of the rest of us thought of it is a complete mystery to me...) A decent book that at least explains in general the fundamental philosophies at the foundation of traditional astrology is On the Heavenly Spheres. Caveat that even when I finally purchased it I found a bunch of things I didn't agree with...but when I read Parker's Astrology I wasn't exactly floored either.

Gradually you can work into IA which I referenced above. As a text book I have found none better, simply because Benjamin Dykes takes the time to explain the etymology of the terms/words used, compares them between different texts/eras, and explains his own conclusions...kind of like when BobZ posts here. :whistling:

Edit to add...I got really, really lucky. Because here at AW, I found several people who were willing to answer questions and take a newbie under their wing. Kai, JUPITERASC, dr. farr...all have been most generous with their time and expertise. My point being that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. :)

Sorry for the late reply, I had to duck out for a moment.

I have read the skyscript tutorial yes. The web does seem to lack a lot of comprehensive traditional references but I have a few rare books found by a friend put into pdfs (Nicholas Culpepper's Opus Astrologicum, Directory for Midwives, Anthony Griffin's An Astrological Judgment Touching Theft, that one is an entertaining read and a few others). It is annoying to read them on a computer though, the splotchy ink and time bent pages really made the scanned result a bit awkward. Thank you for the references, knowing where to look always takes the stress out of self directed study.

Kai, JUPITERASC and dr. farr have helped me a lot on these forums too, especially JUPITERASC. Great little web community here, that's for sure :cool:

Yeah I didn't want to post it because this isn't the natal chart section but here it is;

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-17-2013, 03:29 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Mercury is your Lord of Geniture, but Saturn is probably your Lord of Manners.

dr. farr
07-17-2013, 03:41 AM
Vedic astrology (in its concepts and definitions) has very much in common with Traditionalist and Hellenist Western astrology; there are several excellent books aiming at a more balanced understanding of this Cosmic Principle ("planet") which are of value, regardless of the whether one leans toward Western or Vedic astrology, or Traditionalist or Modernist astrology: eg, "The Greatness of Saturn", "Secrets of Saturn", "Saturn: Friend and Guide", "Saturn-the Kingmaker", etc (these titles can be easily obtained from such internet vendors as astroamerica.com)

BobZemco
07-17-2013, 05:57 AM
Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet.

So....you would want to be hedonistic?

Sometimes restriction can be a good thing.

... frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart.

I'm not exactly seeing that, but I could be wrong because I'm doing this (calculating) in my head.

Does Saturn bring anything good?

Why don't you ask actor Sean Connery?

Like you, he has Retrograde Saturn rising in the Ascendant in Capricorn....and that's what makes Sean Connery the kind of sophisticated suave debonaire type.

You might learn something by comparing his chart to yours, or perhaps yours to his.

The three things you have in common is Retrograde Saturn in a Capricorn Ascendant, Jupiter looking at Saturn from the opposition (Cancer) and Mercury looking at Saturn from the trine (Virgo).

The differences are what is important.

<Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn>

That's the hierarchy of Planets. Intuitively, looking at the three Superiors, Mars is too close to Sun and so has an Hot nature, while is too far away and has a Cold nature, but Jupiter is juuuusssst right.

In a Day Chart --- with Sun Above Earth -- you always want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and you want Mars Below Earth away from Sun. In a Night -- Sun Below Earth -- you want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and Mars way up in the night sky Above Earth.

When Saturn is Diurnal, he is less Malefic; Nocturnal Mars is less Malefic; but Nocturnal Jupiter is less Benefic.

Whenever you look at a Planet or Sign/House, you want to know who's watching. A Malefic watching a Planet or Sign/House is not good. In Connery's chart, Nocturnal Mars is in Gemini and in aversion to Saturn (and also the Ascendant) but in your chart, Nocturnal Mars is watching Saturn from Taurus. Even though Mars is Nocturnal, he is not less Malefic because he is in Taurus, and because of the Moon.

You both have a Cancer Jupiter watching Retrograde Saturn from the opposition, and a Virgo Mercury watching Rx Saturn from the trine, but here's where more major differences crop up.

Connery has a Libra Venus smiling at Saturn from the square, and an Accidental Benefic Virgo Sun not only staring at Saturn from the trine, but in an applying trine aspect, which helps Saturn.

You also have an Accidental Benefic Sun, but it -- along with Venus -- are in Leo and in aversion to Rx Saturn (and your Ascendant).

The real problem in your chart is Cancer Moon who is in aspect with Rx Saturn -- but separating -- and then applying to Taurus Mars.

You never want a Planet going from a Malefic (or Mercury or Sun as Accidental Malefics) to another Malefic. That's bad. It's like constant sorrow.

You want a Planet going from a Malefic to a Benefic, or from a Benefic to a Benefic.

Since Moon is the faster Planet, and since there's no Reception, and since Saturn is Retrograde, the meaning of that is being compelled/forced/driven into constant conflicts of one nature or another, and on top of that, Moon is impeded.

Cancer Moon receives Taurus Mars, but the only thing Mars hates worse than Moon, Libra and Taurus is Cancer, and then Moon is impeded by Rx Saturn.

Also, there is no Grand Trine here.

Both Mercury and Mars have separated from Rx Saturn, so those trines are no longer operative. Likewise, Sun has separated from Mars, so there is no square. However, Mercury is still in an applying trine with Mars.

One last thing, is that Mars is within the 8 moiety orb of a sextile to Jupiter.

Unless Jupiter is going stationary and Mars is moving freaking fast, that sextile is never going to happen.....and that's sad, because, whatever Mars/Jupiter represents in your chart, is what you will constantly chase after but never find.

Anyway, Saturn is a Malefic, but in your chart, not especially Malefic. Saturn really wants to help you, but he doesn't have any help. Sun in a sextile or trine (by Sign) to Saturn would really help, and so would Venus in a sextile, square or trine (by Sign), but those two are in aversion to Saturn (and your Ascendant), and it would be better if Mars were in aversion to Saturn, but it isn't so.

Yes, Rx Saturn impedes Moon, but Saturn is not really the bad guy here.

My primary concern would be the Moon/Rx Saturn opposition, the Moon/Mars sextile, and then the Mars/Jupiter sextile that never perfects.

Zonark
07-17-2013, 02:24 PM
So....you would want to be hedonistic?

Sometimes restriction can be a good thing.

Good point, I've always been pretty temperate.

I'm not exactly seeing that, but I could be wrong because I'm doing this (calculating) in my head.

I got that from Walter Pullen's calculations to determine the chart ruler. I am pretty sure it isn't a traditional method but I figured when I said it there might be some parallels.


Why don't you ask actor Sean Connery?

Like you, he has Retrograde Saturn rising in the Ascendant in Capricorn....and that's what makes Sean Connery the kind of sophisticated suave debonaire type.

You might learn something by comparing his chart to yours, or perhaps yours to his.

The three things you have in common is Retrograde Saturn in a Capricorn Ascendant, Jupiter looking at Saturn from the opposition (Cancer) and Mercury looking at Saturn from the trine (Virgo).

The differences are what is important.

<Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn>

That's the hierarchy of Planets. Intuitively, looking at the three Superiors, Mars is too close to Sun and so has an Hot nature, while is too far away and has a Cold nature, but Jupiter is juuuusssst right.

In a Day Chart --- with Sun Above Earth -- you always want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and you want Mars Below Earth away from Sun. In a Night -- Sun Below Earth -- you want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and Mars way up in the night sky Above Earth.

Ah so I do have a day chart. I thought my PM birth made it a night chart, huge mistake. Question; would that mean the calculation of my Part of Fortune must use the Day formula? Depending on whether I use the day or night formula it ends up at 10 degrees Sagittarius or 18 degrees Aquarius respectively. The astrodienst calculator places it in Sagittarius but I thought it might be incorrect based on something I read about AM/PM birth times.


When Saturn is Diurnal, he is less Malefic; Nocturnal Mars is less Malefic; but Nocturnal Jupiter is less Benefic.

Whenever you look at a Planet or Sign/House, you want to know who's watching. A Malefic watching a Planet or Sign/House is not good. In Connery's chart, Nocturnal Mars is in Gemini and in aversion to Saturn (and also the Ascendant) but in your chart, Nocturnal Mars is watching Saturn from Taurus. Even though Mars is Nocturnal, he is not less Malefic because he is in Taurus, and because of the Moon.

I see. So Mars will disrupt Saturn's influence. I had no idea, superficially they look like they're in harmony.


You both have a Cancer Jupiter watching Retrograde Saturn from the opposition, and a Virgo Mercury watching Rx Saturn from the trine, but here's where more major differences crop up.

Connery has a Libra Venus smiling at Saturn from the square, and an Accidental Benefic Virgo Sun not only staring at Saturn from the trine, but in an applying trine aspect, which helps Saturn.

You also have an Accidental Benefic Sun, but it -- along with Venus -- are in Leo and in aversion to Rx Saturn (and your Ascendant).

So again I have planets that are just not in tune with Saturn, though not necessarily working against it it like the Moon and Mars, or would they be actively opposed the way the Moon and Mars are?


The real problem in your chart is Cancer Moon who is in aspect with Rx Saturn -- but separating -- and then applying to Taurus Mars.

You never want a Planet going from a Malefic (or Mercury or Sun as Accidental Malefics) to another Malefic. That's bad. It's like constant sorrow.

You want a Planet going from a Malefic to a Benefic, or from a Benefic to a Benefic.

Since Moon is the faster Planet, and since there's no Reception, and since Saturn is Retrograde, the meaning of that is being compelled/forced/driven into constant conflicts of one nature or another, and on top of that, Moon is impeded.

Cancer Moon receives Taurus Mars, but the only thing Mars hates worse than Moon, Libra and Taurus is Cancer, and then Moon is impeded by Rx Saturn.

I can certainly see where this conflict manifests in my life, purely as a constant underlying emotional current where my Martian side grates against my emotional nature. I had a lot of conflict with my mother in my adolescence, that sounds like a manifestation of this aspect, at least one way it could've gone. She was always very supportive but far too overprotective. I was always very angry with her and had difficulty showing appreciation. It felt like my willfulness was in conflict with her emotional state and the dynamic always ended on a negative note for both of us. My father was absent for the second half of my adolescence; my mother divorced him on allegations of sexually abusing my siblings and I, the divorce took a very long time and the dynamic that played out at home was always harsh. I had a hard time controlling my temper and would end up going from very calm to smashing up the house or getting into really explosive arguments, usually in response to my mother having an emotional breakdown which happened frequently. She put me on psychiatric medication when I was 12 and once had me arrested to be sent to the psychiatric ward, which is kind of comical in a dark way considering the Moon's lunar loony side. Very very irrational behavior looking back at it all. :pouty:

I'd be very interested in any opinion you have on how that Moon/Mars dynamic could be expressed in a more positive way. I don't want to carry anything like that dynamic into my adult life.


Also, there is no Grand Trine here.

Both Mercury and Mars have separated from Rx Saturn, so those trines are no longer operative. Likewise, Sun has separated from Mars, so there is no square. However, Mercury is still in an applying trine with Mars.

One last thing, is that Mars is within the 8 moiety orb of a sextile to Jupiter.

Unless Jupiter is going stationary and Mars is moving freaking fast, that sextile is never going to happen.....and that's sad, because, whatever Mars/Jupiter represents in your chart, is what you will constantly chase after but never find.

Anyway, Saturn is a Malefic, but in your chart, not especially Malefic. Saturn really wants to help you, but he doesn't have any help. Sun in a sextile or trine (by Sign) to Saturn would really help, and so would Venus in a sextile, square or trine (by Sign), but those two are in aversion to Saturn (and your Ascendant), and it would be better if Mars were in aversion to Saturn, but it isn't so.

Yes, Rx Saturn impedes Moon, but Saturn is not really the bad guy here.

My primary concern would be the Moon/Rx Saturn opposition, the Moon/Mars sextile, and then the Mars/Jupiter sextile that never perfects.

That is interesting about the grand trine not applying, I've never had anyone say that or determined with my own research but it makes sense with Saturn's contrary movement. It's good that square doesn't apply either as it would probably be a pretty harsh aspect.

I never got the sense that Saturn was a bad guy in my chart which is why all the things about it being so malefic confused me. I felt my chart was posited in a way to make me upset with my Lunar nature (which constantly seems to get the best of me).

The imperfect Mars/Jupiter sextile I've seen manifest in my relationships with significant others. Mars always chasing an ideal expansive and philosophically grounded love which never quite happens. Funnily enough it's something about Mars that always seems to turn them off. Either I'm too angry, too slow, too stubborn, too twisted, too damaged, it always seems to be something about my Mars. I get plenty of the lunar attention from significant others but Mars hates it and doesn't appreciate it at all.

Very helpful instruction BobZ, thank you!

Zarathu
07-17-2013, 02:54 PM
Saturn's influence is essential in all that requires patience and directed effort. Creativity without Saturn turns into folly.

Nothing that you accomplish in life can be done without the patient focused effort of Saturn.

In my experience, people without much Saturn, or with a debilitated Saturn(I am not a traditional astrologer) in their charts, are people who struggle continuously to take their dreams and bring them into a measure of functional reality.

Saturn, rather than bringing you down, makes things happen by giving you the power to personal ACTION.

JUPITERASC
07-17-2013, 03:43 PM
Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?
'....Manners when SATURN well dignified: Profound in imagination, severe in his acts, in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave, in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions austere....'


COMPARE WITH

Manners when SATURN badly placed:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining.


QUOTED FROM THE TRADITIONAL SIGNIFICATIONS OF SATURN http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn_att.html :smile:

Zonark
07-17-2013, 07:12 PM
Saturn's influence is essential in all that requires patience and directed effort. Creativity without Saturn turns into folly.

Nothing that you accomplish in life can be done without the patient focused effort of Saturn.

In my experience, people without much Saturn, or with a debilitated Saturn(I am not a traditional astrologer) in their charts, are people who struggle continuously to take their dreams and bring them into a measure of functional reality.

I definitely see that now. Saturn's function seems to let the native know when to just stop so that everything has its timing and placement. A dysfunctional Saturn results in dysfunctional timing.


Saturn, rather than bringing you down, makes things happen by giving you the power to personal ACTION.

This bit sounds more like Mars though!


'....Manners when SATURN well dignified: Profound in imagination, severe in his acts, in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave, in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions austere....'


COMPARE WITH

Manners when SATURN badly placed:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining.


QUOTED FROM THE TRADITIONAL SIGNIFICATIONS OF SATURN http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn_att.html :smile:

I suppose since I have a dignified Saturn in the house of its Fall (the 1st) this will manifest as a mixture of the two. A dignified Saturn working in a somewhat slovenly locale.

JUPITERASC
07-17-2013, 07:26 PM
....I suppose since I have a dignified Saturn in the house of its Fall (the 1st) this will manifest as a mixture of the two. A dignified Saturn working in a somewhat slovenly locale.
Not exactly :smile:

The First is far from 'a slovenly locale' in fact the First is the STRONGEST in terms of STRENGTH OF THE HOUSES

The houses are not all equal in strength and power.
If a planet is located in an angular house, it is much more forceful in its effects than it would be in a cadent house http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html

On page 48 of Christian Astrology Lilly writes:

'....The angles are most powerful, the succeedents are next in virtue, the cadents poor, and of little efficacy: the succeedent houses follow the angles, the cadents come next [after] the succeedents. In force and virtue they stand so in order:
1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this, that two planets equally dignified, the one in the Ascendant, the other in the tenth house, you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power to effect what he is significator of, than he that is in the tenth: do so in the rest as they stand in order, remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.....'

'....The astrological angles - ascendant, midheaven (MC), descendant and lower midheaven (IC) - are the most potent and influential areas in any chart. Any planet that is in conjunction with an angle will have a marked influence that resonates throughout the chart and greatly colours its overall meaning.....'

Zonark
07-17-2013, 07:54 PM
Not exactly :smile:

The First is far from 'a slovenly locale' in fact the First is the STRONGEST in terms of STRENGTH OF THE HOUSES

The houses are not all equal in strength and power.
If a planet is located in an angular house, it is much more forceful in its effects than it would be in a cadent house http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html

On page 48 of Christian Astrology Lilly writes:

'....The angles are most powerful, the succeedents are next in virtue, the cadents poor, and of little efficacy: the succeedent houses follow the angles, the cadents come next [after] the succeedents. In force and virtue they stand so in order:
1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this, that two planets equally dignified, the one in the Ascendant, the other in the tenth house, you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power to effect what he is significator of, than he that is in the tenth: do so in the rest as they stand in order, remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.....'

'....The astrological angles - ascendant, midheaven (MC), descendant and lower midheaven (IC) - are the most potent and influential areas in any chart. Any planet that is in conjunction with an angle will have a marked influence that resonates throughout the chart and greatly colours its overall meaning.....'

Ah okay. I know the 1st is the most powerful house but it being the house of Saturn's fall might that make Saturn just too strong? A powerfully restrictive force perhaps?

tsmall
07-17-2013, 07:58 PM
Ah okay. I know the 1st is the most powerful house but it being the house of Saturn's fall might that make Saturn just too strong? A powerfully restrictive force perhaps?

Why are we thinking that the 1st is the house of Saturn's fall? Planets are in fall in signs, not houses. Is this something stemming from the joys of the planets?

Zonark
07-17-2013, 08:01 PM
Why are we thinking that the 1st is the house of Saturn's fall? Planets are in fall in signs, not houses. Is this something stemming from the joys of the planets?

Oh. I still have so much to learn.

tsmall
07-17-2013, 08:07 PM
Oh. I still have so much to learn.

Meeeee tooooo. :w00t:

This might help a little.

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/UsingMedievalAstrologyPartI.pdf

JUPITERASC
07-17-2013, 08:24 PM
....I can certainly see where this conflict manifests in my life, purely as a constant underlying emotional current where my Martian side grates against my emotional nature. I had a lot of conflict with my mother in my adolescence, that sounds like a manifestation of this aspect, at least one way it could've gone. She was always very supportive but far too overprotective. I was always very angry with her and had difficulty showing appreciation. It felt like my willfulness was in conflict with her emotional state and the dynamic always ended on a negative note for both of us. My father was absent for the second half of my adolescence; my mother divorced him on allegations of sexually abusing my siblings and I, the divorce took a very long time and the dynamic that played out at home was always harsh. I had a hard time controlling my temper and would end up going from very calm to smashing up the house or getting into really explosive arguments, usually in response to my mother having an emotional breakdown which happened frequently. She put me on psychiatric medication when I was 12 and once had me arrested to be sent to the psychiatric ward, which is kind of comical in a dark way considering the Moon's lunar loony side. Very very irrational behavior looking back at it all. :pouty:

I'd be very interested in any opinion you have on how that Moon/Mars dynamic could be expressed in a more positive way. I don't want to carry anything like that dynamic into my adult life.
In that case here's a useful video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_TtOysQOA :smile:
So....you would want to be hedonistic?

Sometimes restriction can be a good thing.

Anyway, Saturn is a Malefic, but in your chart, not especially Malefic. Saturn really wants to help you, but he doesn't have any help. Sun in a sextile or trine (by Sign) to Saturn would really help, and so would Venus in a sextile, square or trine (by Sign), but those two are in aversion to Saturn (and your Ascendant), and it would be better if Mars were in aversion to Saturn, but it isn't so.

Yes, Rx Saturn impedes Moon, but Saturn is not really the bad guy here.

My primary concern would be the Moon/Rx Saturn opposition, the Moon/Mars sextile, and then the Mars/Jupiter sextile that never perfects.
Interestingly, BobZemco has highlighted that your natal Saturn 'is not especially Malefic' and WANTS to help

BobZemco
07-21-2013, 12:31 AM
I got that from Walter Pullen's calculations to determine the chart ruler. I am pretty sure it isn't a traditional method but I figured when I said it there might be some parallels.

Uh, okay. I have no idea who that is, but I get the parallel thing.

Traditional Astrology is very hierarchical.

Just as there is an hierarchy of charts (I listed them on another thread starting with the Grand Conjunction -- your Natal Chart would be ~7th in the pecking order), there are hierarchies for the Planets in your chart and all relevant topics, starting with:

Chart Ruler
Sect Ruler
Ascendant Ruler
Ascending Sign Ruler
Each Topical House/Sign

The Chart Ruler is the Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity in certain select Chart Points, plus strengths based on House location and locational Dignity.

The certain select Points are the Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Lunar Ascendant (Lot of Fortune) and pre-Natal Moon (by position).

Most people use either ibn Ezra's method, or Omar's method, you can, too. I use a variation of ibn Ezra's method, because I have some issues.

He gives 2 points to Planets in the 12th House and 1 to the 6th House; I reverse that, giving a Planet in the 6th House 2 points and one in the 12th House 1 point.

I should mention these are actually Signs, meaning the 6th Sign and not the 6th House in the chart.

Ibn Ezra also gives 5 points to the Sign Ruler, 4 points to the Exaltation Ruler and 3 points for a Planet in its Triplicity. I give 5 points for Exaltation Ruler, 4 for the Sign Ruler, 3 for Triplicity if the Planet is in-Sect, 2 points for the participating Triplicity Ruler, and 1 point if the Planet is not in-Sect.

8 times out of 10, we both pick the same Planet as Chart Ruler.

Then I started using Abu-Ali's method -- Bonatti uses a variation of his--- which I find to be more comprehensive and logical.

Once you've identified the Chart Ruler, examine it's condition, and you can bet the farm that at the end of the day, on average, that's how your life will turn out.

Naturally, that judgment is made within the scheme of other hierarchies, namely Socio-Economic Class, Culture & Environment.

So....a mediocre Chart Ruler would mean that within your SECC&R your life is mediocre, but compared to another person in a different SECC&R your life could be better.....or worse.

Sect Ruler doctrines are FUBAR due to poor misunderstanding and bad text translations. Most people understand the Sect Ruler to be either the Sun in a Day Chart, or Moon in a Night Chart.

It don't work that way.

The Sect Ruler is the most powerful Planet in the Sect.....how do you determine that? I have no idea, but common sense and logic dictates that an Out-of-Sect Planet cannot be Sect Ruler. "What if they're all Out-of-Sect?" Well, gosh, golly, by darn, I guess they're all equally debilitated and so you'll have to look at something else, like Dignity.

The Sect Ruler governs your health and vitality as it relates to your physical/mental constitution.

A powerful Sect Ruler is less likely to become ill/diseased, or injured, and if they do, the illness/disease or injury isn't as damaging, and they recover much faster than the average person would.

Take someone with Type I Diabetes. If the Sect Ruler is strong, no big deal; but if it is weak, then they'll end up having limbs (extremities) amputated because of it. If Sect Ruler happens to be also be the Light of the Sect -- Sun or Moon -- and in an Azieme Degree, then they'll eventually lose their eyesight.

The Ascendant Ruler is the Planet that has the greatest Dignity in the Ascendant Point. Most people use a weighted scoring system, which I think is silly and contrary to the entire purpose.

On the Natal Forum they pull their hair over stupid stuff like, "S/he has a Cancer Ascendant, but they're nothing like a Cancer."

Doh! No kidding. Why don't you look at the Bound Ruler, see what condition it's in and whether or not it aspects the Ascending Sign, and then figure out the Ascendant Ruler -- which could be Mars.

Anyway, that's your basic hierarchical structure.

Ah so I do have a day chart. I thought my PM birth made it a night chart, huge mistake.

It's based on the Sun's location in the sky. So long as the Sun falls Above Earth in the 7th through 12th Houses it's a day chart.

Note that in a Day Chart, Sun is in-Sect if and only if Sun is in a Masculine Quadrant and Sign or House.... or both Sign and House (if in Quadrant II).

In other words, if Sun is in the 10th, 11th or 12th Signs, then Sun is in a Masculine Quadrant and in-Sect, and then if Sun is in the 11th, or in a Masculine Sign in the 10th or 12th, then Sun is in Hayz.

The 7th, 8th and 9th Houses comprise the Feminine Quadrant (Quad II)

Sun in a Masculine Sign in the 8th is in-Sect, but nothing more.

Sun in 7th or 9th is in-Sect, and if in a Masculine Sign, then also in Hayz.

Question; would that mean the calculation of my Part of Fortune must use the Day formula?

Yes.

Depending on whether I use the day or night formula it ends up at 10 degrees Sagittarius or 18 degrees Aquarius respectively. The astrodienst calculator places it in Sagittarius but I thought it might be incorrect based on something I read about AM/PM birth times.

I don't know about Astrodienst. Maybe they calculate it correctly. Someone else can answer that.

I see. So Mars will disrupt Saturn's influence. I had no idea, superficially they look like they're in harmony.

Mars has separated from the trine with Saturn.

So again I have planets that are just not in tune with Saturn, though not necessarily working against it it like the Moon and Mars, or would they be actively opposed the way the Moon and Mars are?

Saturn in your chart is a positive thing, but it would be more helpful to have Venus in a nice aspect with Saturn. Because Capricorn is Jupiter's Fall, Jupiter cannot really help, and in fact would hurt, unless Jupiter were in Pisces moving to a sextile of Capricorn Saturn.

I can certainly see where this conflict manifests in my life, purely as a constant underlying emotional current where my Martian side grates against my emotional nature. I had a lot of conflict with my mother in my adolescence, that sounds like a manifestation of this aspect, at least one way it could've gone. She was always very supportive but far too overprotective. I was always very angry with her and had difficulty showing appreciation. It felt like my willfulness was in conflict with her emotional state and the dynamic always ended on a negative note for both of us. My father was absent for the second half of my adolescence; my mother divorced him on allegations of sexually abusing my siblings and I, the divorce took a very long time and the dynamic that played out at home was always harsh. I had a hard time controlling my temper and would end up going from very calm to smashing up the house or getting into really explosive arguments, usually in response to my mother having an emotional breakdown which happened frequently. She put me on psychiatric medication when I was 12 and once had me arrested to be sent to the psychiatric ward, which is kind of comical in a dark way considering the Moon's lunar loony side. Very very irrational behavior looking back at it all.

In every chart, Natal, Solar Return, Mundane, Horary and Electional a separating aspect indicates something in the past.

"But it's a Natal Chart, I don't have a past."

Yes, you do.

The time from Conception to Birth, and even before that. Your parents already had problems and issues before you were born, so you're not the cause or the problem.

I'd be very interested in any opinion you have on how that Moon/Mars dynamic could be expressed in a more positive way. I don't want to carry anything like that dynamic into my adult life.

I think you're doing it. Mercury in Virgo is pushing management on Mars. I use Egyptian Terms and not Ptolemy's Pterms or Lily's Terms. Mercury is in the Bound of Mars, so Mars receives Mercury and is granting Mercury permission to act.

Uh, you are rational, right? That's a good thing. The 9th is Cadent, and so kind of weak, but a trine outranks a sextile -- where Moon is Angular (especially here since it's a right sextile and a right trine).

That is interesting about the grand trine not applying, I've never had anyone say that or determined with my own research but it makes sense with Saturn's contrary movement. It's good that square doesn't apply either as it would probably be a pretty harsh aspect.

Once Planets separate from an aspect, they're done.

Some of the texts suggest that so long as they are still in Moiety Orb, there's a lasting effect. I dispute that, because I don't see it, and because half the words in Romanian are Latin and the connotation or message those particular Latin words convey is of an imprint or impression.

I don't know squat about Greek, Arabic or Farsi, so I can't speak to those texts.

It's a "lasting impression," and not a "lasting effect." Is that splitting hairs? I don't know. I'd settle for "lingering effect" (less permanence).

The imperfect Mars/Jupiter sextile I've seen manifest in my relationships with significant others. Mars always chasing an ideal expansive and philosophically grounded love which never quite happens. Funnily enough it's something about Mars that always seems to turn them off. Either I'm too angry, too slow, too stubborn, too twisted, too damaged, it always seems to be something about my Mars. I get plenty of the lunar attention from significant others but Mars hates it and doesn't appreciate it at all.

Retrograde Saturn in your 1st House would make you "too slow and "too stubborn" (but not because Saturn is in the 1st House, rather because Saturn participates with Moon, Mercury and the Ascendant Point Ruler in determining your mannerisms and characteristics).

With Virgo Mercury in the 9th, you're not "too slow" rather you're reserved and try to avoid making hasty decisions.

The Mars thing, well, the first applying aspect Moon makes is to Mars, so that's the kind of woman that you'd idealize, at least initially.

Zonark
07-22-2013, 03:25 AM
Traditional Astrology is very hierarchical.

Just as there is an hierarchy of charts (I listed them on another thread starting with the Grand Conjunction -- your Natal Chart would be ~7th in the pecking order), there are hierarchies for the Planets in your chart and all relevant topics, starting with:

Chart Ruler
Sect Ruler
Ascendant Ruler
Ascending Sign Ruler
Each Topical House/Sign

The Chart Ruler is the Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity in certain select Chart Points, plus strengths based on House location and locational Dignity.

The certain select Points are the Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Lunar Ascendant (Lot of Fortune) and pre-Natal Moon (by position).

Most people use either ibn Ezra's method, or Omar's method, you can, too. I use a variation of ibn Ezra's method, because I have some issues.

He gives 2 points to Planets in the 12th House and 1 to the 6th House; I reverse that, giving a Planet in the 6th House 2 points and one in the 12th House 1 point.

I should mention these are actually Signs, meaning the 6th Sign and not the 6th House in the chart.

Ibn Ezra also gives 5 points to the Sign Ruler, 4 points to the Exaltation Ruler and 3 points for a Planet in its Triplicity. I give 5 points for Exaltation Ruler, 4 for the Sign Ruler, 3 for Triplicity if the Planet is in-Sect, 2 points for the participating Triplicity Ruler, and 1 point if the Planet is not in-Sect.

8 times out of 10, we both pick the same Planet as Chart Ruler.

Then I started using Abu-Ali's method -- Bonatti uses a variation of his--- which I find to be more comprehensive and logical.

Once you've identified the Chart Ruler, examine it's condition, and you can bet the farm that at the end of the day, on average, that's how your life will turn out.

Naturally, that judgment is made within the scheme of other hierarchies, namely Socio-Economic Class, Culture & Environment.

So....a mediocre Chart Ruler would mean that within your SECC&R your life is mediocre, but compared to another person in a different SECC&R your life could be better.....or worse.

Sect Ruler doctrines are FUBAR due to poor misunderstanding and bad text translations. Most people understand the Sect Ruler to be either the Sun in a Day Chart, or Moon in a Night Chart.

It don't work that way.

The Sect Ruler is the most powerful Planet in the Sect.....how do you determine that? I have no idea, but common sense and logic dictates that an Out-of-Sect Planet cannot be Sect Ruler. "What if they're all Out-of-Sect?" Well, gosh, golly, by darn, I guess they're all equally debilitated and so you'll have to look at something else, like Dignity.

The Sect Ruler governs your health and vitality as it relates to your physical/mental constitution.

A powerful Sect Ruler is less likely to become ill/diseased, or injured, and if they do, the illness/disease or injury isn't as damaging, and they recover much faster than the average person would.

Take someone with Type I Diabetes. If the Sect Ruler is strong, no big deal; but if it is weak, then they'll end up having limbs (extremities) amputated because of it. If Sect Ruler happens to be also be the Light of the Sect -- Sun or Moon -- and in an Azieme Degree, then they'll eventually lose their eyesight.

The Ascendant Ruler is the Planet that has the greatest Dignity in the Ascendant Point. Most people use a weighted scoring system, which I think is silly and contrary to the entire purpose.

On the Natal Forum they pull their hair over stupid stuff like, "S/he has a Cancer Ascendant, but they're nothing like a Cancer."

Doh! No kidding. Why don't you look at the Bound Ruler, see what condition it's in and whether or not it aspects the Ascending Sign, and then figure out the Ascendant Ruler -- which could be Mars.

Anyway, that's your basic hierarchical structure.


Really excellent help Bob, thank you!

Using your method (prior to your adoption of Abu Ali's method, which I'm reading about now in Abu Ali's translated The Judgments of the Nativities) my Chart Ruler comes out as the Sun. Using Ezra's it is unclear and contested between the Sun, Moon and Saturn (considering Saturn's conflict with the Moon, the Sun seems to win by default anyway).

My Ascendant Ruler is Saturn?

Using Abu Ali's judgment of rearing concerning nativity my Ascendant Triplicity bestows no auspices but the circle of the Sun bestows some, itself being the benefactor as the first Lord of its own Triplicity. Would that be correct?

I realize what caused me to question the astrodienst calculator for the Part of Fortune. An article on the same site claimed the proper method for distinguishing whether the PoF was to be calculated diurnally or nocturnally was a question of the native's birth time being either AM or PM respectively. Clearly this is nonsense and contrary to the calculator's method.

This is all very encouraging, the preface to The Judgments of Nativities explained Ptolemy's unsettling effect on astrology which answered a whole slew of irritating questions I've had since I began studying astrology. It justified whole signs in a very convincing manner (even though Ali uses Equal, which relative to Ptolemy's seemingly arbitrary method that spawned so much confusion is almost as acceptable).




In every chart, Natal, Solar Return, Mundane, Horary and Electional a separating aspect indicates something in the past.

"But it's a Natal Chart, I don't have a past."

Yes, you do.

The time from Conception to Birth, and even before that. Your parents already had problems and issues before you were born, so you're not the cause or the problem.

I've been of a small mind toward this element of astrology until now, taking its indications of past influences for granted. Essentially astrology has potential for uncovering past unknowns as well as being prescient. The ancients built the framework for a time machine... such a thing really would need an engine on a cosmic scale. The span of its power encompasses the duration of the gears. That's what functioning astrology could be, a time machine. Jeez. I'm glad I picked up that Llewellyn ephemeris and delineation guide 2 years ago, all initial skepticism aside.


I think you're doing it. Mercury in Virgo is pushing management on Mars. I use Egyptian Terms and not Ptolemy's Pterms or Lily's Terms. Mercury is in the Bound of Mars, so Mars receives Mercury and is granting Mercury permission to act.

Uh, you are rational, right? That's a good thing. The 9th is Cadent, and so kind of weak, but a trine outranks a sextile -- where Moon is Angular (especially here since it's a right sextile and a right trine).

I can be rational but it does not come as naturally as visual understanding. Which is a shame because my eyesight is going and I'm only 22, I'm blaming that on PoF conjunct Antares.

Is this a good article for understanding Bounds? http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/termsbounds-and-appearance/


Once Planets separate from an aspect, they're done.

Some of the texts suggest that so long as they are still in Moiety Orb, there's a lasting effect. I dispute that, because I don't see it, and because half the words in Romanian are Latin and the connotation or message those particular Latin words convey is of an imprint or impression.

I don't know squat about Greek, Arabic or Farsi, so I can't speak to those texts.

It's a "lasting impression," and not a "lasting effect." Is that splitting hairs? I don't know. I'd settle for "lingering effect" (less permanence).

I suppose it depends on what kind of impression or effect was made and whether the native were more receptive to such an impression or likely to forget it like last week's breakfast. In any case I understand it's a past tense but does it continue being past tense in a fourth dimensional sense? What I mean is, does it affect the perceptive lens the native views the past through? The past being the arc of events flowing away from now. Or, does it only represent a singular event(s) of past influence? Talk about splitting hairs :unsure:


Retrograde Saturn in your 1st House would make you "too slow and "too stubborn" (but not because Saturn is in the 1st House, rather because Saturn participates with Moon, Mercury and the Ascendant Point Ruler in determining your mannerisms and characteristics).

With Virgo Mercury in the 9th, you're not "too slow" rather you're reserved and try to avoid making hasty decisions.

I am very deliberate whenever I have the choice to be. I hate being forced to hurry anything. I can conversely be extremely hasty. To illustrate I remember being in 4th grade at a private Catholic elementary school, the fire alarm went off and I was on the third floor. I panicked, bolted out of the room and down 2 flights of stairs soon as the first high pitched wail went off and was the first person out of the building before most of the classes had even emptied. I got in trouble for not lining up with my classmates and felt a bit cowardly but was also pretty impressed with my own agility under stress. I didn't have much compassion for those classmates anyway and was a social pariah.

Where stress causes most to freeze up, it electrifies me.


The Mars thing, well, the first applying aspect Moon makes is to Mars, so that's the kind of woman that you'd idealize, at least initially.

Mhm, I've always fallen for women with strong Cancerian traits.




I'd write more but this post is long enough.

Culpeper
07-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Saturn looks well placed in your chart. I was just reviewing my Hellenistic astrology. When Saturn is in Sect in its dignity and in an angular house it can be very helpful to the native. Its good qualities will mostly be evident.

The grand trine is very good if you make use of it. This configuration will not force you to take advantage of opportunities.

In a day chart Mars is out of Sect and becomes the chief malefic. This is the planet you must watch out for. This will be most evident in years when Mars is time lord of the chart.

eternalautumn
07-23-2013, 04:40 PM
charmvirgo, traditional astrology is extremely balanced, much more so than modern methods. It takes a bit of study to realize it, but when you do, it's beautiful.

I agree with your idea of planetary opposites and balance, but I must make a correction. Saturn and Mars, the Greater and Lesser Malefics, are balanced by Jupiter and Venus, the Greater and Lesser Benefics. The Moon is balanced by the Sun and does not participate in this regard. Saturn, whose nature is cold and dry (earth), is balanced by Jupiter, whose nature is hot and wet (air). Mars, whose nature is hot and dry (fire), is balanced by Venus, whose nature is cold and wet (water).

Also, determining the strengths of the planets is not a "competition", but rather a method of determining how a specific planet will manifest in a particular chart. Essential dignity influences the positive or negative qualities of a planet, and accidental dignity influences the ability of a planet to manifest it's qualities. Essential is "quality", accidental is "quantity". Balance, again.