PDA

View Full Version : Profections and revolutions


tsmall
07-04-2013, 01:31 AM
It's enough to make your head spin.

Per this thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64722

It seemed prudent to go back to the natal charts and see what, if anything showed there to support the judgement of the horary chart since horary cannot bring what is not promised natally.

I already know that Saturn is active in his chart because this is a sixth house profection year for my husband and while Saturn is not the Year Lord (Mercury gets that honor) Saturn is important because natally he is in the 6th.

After fooling around with Oracle all day I couldn't get a chart that made any sense to me (I'm sure that is user error) and so have posted the Annual Profection chart using Morinus.

Here is what stands out to me.

In the radix chart Saturn is the ruler of the ASC, as well as the Almuten of the 2nd house. I believe, though I'm probably incorrect, that when a planet is "activated" it activates the houses it rules as well as the house it is in. So 1st, 2nd, and 6th, with the 10th house as well since Saturn is the exaltation ruler of Libra.

The back story is on the other thread, but already we can see a theme emerging. 1st, 2nd, and 10th are easily understood, but the 6th sort of leads you to want to think illness. So insert first question. Each house means several different things and al-Qabisi says that we are to look at the triplicity rulers to determine how they will fare. The 6th house represents the native's illness, slaves, and beasts. The 1st triplicity ruler tells about illness, the second about slaves and domestics, and the third what will come to the native because of those. Is there a way to "fine tune" the significations of the houses to determine which of these will be affected? I guess the question is, does the signifying triplicity ruler need to be activated as well?

As Lord of the Year, Mercury brings the 6th, the 9th, and the 11th (since he is posited in the 11th.)

This year (that started in November of 2012) the SR ASC is in Sagittaruis, naming Jupiter as SR ruler. Jupiter in the natal is in domicile, in the 12th ruling the 12th, 3rd, and is exaltation ruler of the 7th. As a side note, I think Jupiter's position here is why we have a zoo in the first place.

Next we move on to see what all these planets are doing in the SR chart.

Masha'Alla says that when Mercury is Lord of the Year, if he is direct and under the regard of benefics it's a banner year.

it heaps much money in that year, greatly increases prudence, satisfies with the fruit of teachings and controversies and finally it furnishes victory in every business.

Persian Nativities

Well, that looks pretty cool, and seems to support at least in part the answer on the horary thread. However.

Mercury is stationary retrograde in the SR chart, in the ascendant and Mars is conjunct the SR ASC. Mercury opposes Jupiter by sign, and they are in Mutual Reception, with Jupiter retrograde and clinging to the descendant. Masha'Alla says that when Mercury is retrograde, burned or unlucky as Lord of the Year

predicts an unlucky year and instills detriment from everywhere. The regard of the malevolents is to be feared, since it greatly increases losses...and finally this trouble is entitled to come in through a partnership, slaves, controversy...

Ok. Business partners, employees, lawsuit. :surprised: These ancient astrologers really knew what they were talking about.

Masha'Alla does caution us to look to the dignity Mercury has in the SR chart, whether he is in an human sign, and if it is an Earth sign, etc.

Well, the first part of Sagittarius is an human sign of the fire triplicity.


What is Saturn doing? Nothing much. Just applying to a conjunction with the natal MC and then the Sun while at the same time opposing the natal Moon. As a bonus, Saturn is going to station regtrograde, back up and hit them all again before moving direct for a third shot.

Already this is looking like a not so nice year. And that just about sums it up so far. So the question becomes, since we know the worst Masha'Alla has written about happened, how do we judge if it will be reversed?

Konrad
07-04-2013, 10:00 AM
Hi tsmall,

I'm not really sure what you're asking, so I'll just give you my perspective on this. Please note I use the Babylonian fixed zodiac, so the positions are different than you have listed. Normally I would refer to horary as you have done to find the result of specific court cases, but the act of being in one is quite clearly shown in the natal chart, though I would be hesitant to predict an exact outcome based upon it alone.

I use a hierarchy of Firdariyyah -> distributions -> profections when looking to one's annual happenings.

For the sake of brevity, I am not going to dig out the quotes which support my delineations, but I will do so if requested.

http://thumbnails105.imagebam.com/26380/d119a3263791123.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d119a3263791123)

First we need to verify this sort of event being present in the nativity. The Sun is in the MC sign of Libra, so his triplicity lords are Saturn and then Mercury. Valens states that Mars in aspect to either of these two will bring enimities, violence and bloodshed during their times. I think a court-case is within Mars' realms of possibility! The Ruler of the Nativity (as translated by Holden in Rhetorius) is the domicile lord of the Sect Light (I also look to the bound lord) and this is Venus in the 12th, while Jupiter is the bound lord, also in the 12th and both are square Mars. Finally, Venus is applying to Mars within the same bounds, and she has rulership of his status (Sun) and the degree of the MC. We can see that Mars is the culprit here.

He was in a Saturn/Jupiter Firdaryyah period when this really kicked off (if I am reading it correctly that April was the beginning of this), but Saturn took over from the Moon as major lord in November 2011, so we must consult this chart first.

http://thumbnails105.imagebam.com/26379/a9d4e8263782799.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a9d4e8263782799)

Natally, Saturn is retorgrade in the 6th and dominated by Mars. He is received by Venus, and this does provide support but Mars is really going to impinge himself upon Saturn's significations. Saturn himself shows management of other's resources, hard labour, illness, poverty, secrets etc. and he is determined towards the native's status, work, finances and general support through his rulerships and his aspects. In the 2011 revolution, he specifies us towards his reputation and his work through the rulership of the 10th and MC signs, and also the Sect Light of that chart, so this repetition shows us where to focus this next Saturn period. He is also transiting the natal 10th sign at this time if we missed the first work/reputation repetition. I was a little relieved when I saw Mars in aversion to this 2011 Saturn but upon checking his dodekatemoiria, I saw it falls at 2 Leo which means he is sharing bounds with Mars, again a repetition that you don't really want to see. Other than that, he is in much better state in this revolution which Abu Ma'shar tells us tempers the harm his natal position would have caused otherwise.

In the 2012 revolution, Jupiter takes over from Saturn in May of 2013, so we should do what we just did for Saturn, for Jupiter. Natally, Jupiter is in the 12th sign opposed Saturn and square Mars while conjoined Venus. His two real functions here are being the ASC lord and being a Ruler of the Nativity. I'm sure we all know the significations of the 12th sign, so I needn't go too deply into that. Again, note the influence of Mars. Also when two planets aspect each other, their times of sharing the Firdariyyah activate that aspect, so this opposition to Saturn across the axis of enimities both secret and open is telling.

http://thumbnails103.imagebam.com/26379/dc284f263786315.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dc284f263786315)

Immediately, it should be noted we have a Mars oppsoition and we can now really see the true influence of Mars at this time. Mars also ruled the MC sign and Jupiter the 6th and both are in aversion to them showing instability in these matters.

The ASC is currently directed to Venus/Aquarius and I won't spend much time on it since it is in a similar state to Jupiter, but she is transiting the natal 10th, just for a little repetition. More notable is that the ASC reached the conjunction of Mars in March of 2013. So if we weren't listening the first few times, Mars is making sure you hear him now.

http://thumbnails105.imagebam.com/26379/2a3c2f263786921.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/2a3c2f263786921)

The profection tells a similar story: it comes to Taurus who is being overcome by Mars while its lady Venus is square to Mars and is Ruler of the Nativity making her important for taking the life where it is meant to go. Looking at the revolution, you have the Firdariyyah minor lord as well as the Moon transiting the profected ASC with Mars opposed (added to which the Moon is applying to Mars in the same bounds) The Moon also rules the East of the Year, so again not the best. This sort of repetition is what we are looking for from the natal chart down to the profected ASC each year. It is definitely a Martial kind of year for your husband, and one focused on enimities and reputation.

tsmall
07-04-2013, 07:09 PM
Hi Konrad, thanks for taking so much time on this. I see you use Oracle too, which made it easier for me to follow along and see for myself.

Rather than multi quote I just would like to ask a few questions if that's ok?

I am with you all the way up to when we don't look at the Solar Revolution chart for 2012? Using the sidereal zodiac, since Taurus is the natal 6th then we get Venus as Lady of the Year and she's doing so-so in the 11th applying to a sextile with Mars in domicile on the ASC. Venus is in fall and cadent for being more than 5* past the SR MC, so that isn't great, and she is applying to a trine with first an exalted Moon and then a retrograde Jupiter in the 7th. She also applies to a square with Mars in domicile and on the ASC, with Mercury (with whom she is in mutual reception) applying to a square to her as well, but that square won't perfect because Venus is moving faster than Mercury, who is stationing retrograde.

I understand what you are showing re career/reputation and Mars afflicitng, but I'm not getting court case out of it. Can you explain a little better? Robbery yes, as this is something Martian, and enimity for sure. Masha'All also does indicated that the years that Venus rules the profected chart women will be involved, and that if Venus is impeded then a woman will be the cause of calamity. Which is what happened, but it doesn't really show lawsuit. I think I'm missing something.

What I am trying to learn is how do we pinpoint the specifics of what is going to happen? We can say enimity, and that it will involve career/reputation, but how do we get more specific?

Konrad
07-04-2013, 08:53 PM
I am with you all the way up to when we don't look at the Solar Revolution chart for 2012? Using the sidereal zodiac, since Taurus is the natal 6th then we get Venus as Lady of the Year and she's doing so-so in the 11th applying to a sextile with Mars in domicile on the ASC. Venus is in fall and cadent for being more than 5* past the SR MC, so that isn't great, and she is applying to a trine with first an exalted Moon and then a retrograde Jupiter in the 7th. She also applies to a square with Mars in domicile and on the ASC, with Mercury (with whom she is in mutual reception) applying to a square to her as well, but that square won't perfect because Venus is moving faster than Mercury, who is stationing retrograde.

I'm not seeing what you are here, are you relocating the Revolution? Cancer rises if we use the birth-place and the Babylonian fixed zodiac. As for the rest, I'm not lokoing at Venus exactly to see what happens, no doubt she will make her own impact on the year but Mars' testimony is just too much to ignore.

I understand what you are showing re career/reputation and Mars afflicitng, but I'm not getting court case out of it. Can you explain a little better? Robbery yes, as this is something Martian, and enimity for sure. Masha'All also does indicated that the years that Venus rules the profected chart women will be involved, and that if Venus is impeded then a woman will be the cause of calamity. Which is what happened, but it doesn't really show lawsuit. I think I'm missing something.

What I am trying to learn is how do we pinpoint the specifics of what is going to happen? We can say enimity, and that it will involve career/reputation, but how do we get more specific?

I don't think we can, in all honesty. When you have only 7 planets to describe everything themes and archetypes are all you're going to get. I refrain from using houses to signify everything because, quite frankly, they don't work in the way they are commonly used now but merely give context to the significations of the planets, Mars in this case. I have seen it often where the MC/10th is highlighted along with Mars and we have attacks on character, trouble with enemies and such like (Konrad Adenauer with the Nazis for instance). I have seen attacks on the person and body with the Moon and so on. We can get very specific with timing, but in most cases we can only give thematic readings and describe the kinds of things in regard to what will happen.

tsmall
07-04-2013, 09:42 PM
I'm not seeing what you are here, are you relocating the Revolution? Cancer rises if we use the birth-place and the Babylonian fixed zodiac. As for the rest, I'm not lokoing at Venus exactly to see what happens, no doubt she will make her own impact on the year but Mars' testimony is just too much to ignore.

I believe I mentioned above I've been having issues with Oracle? Because I still get Scorpio rising in the 2012 SR with the Babylonian zodiac. And I always use the birth place for Solar Returns.

Question...my understanding is that the profected year ruler is pretty important. Why wouldn't we want to look at what she's doing to see what happens? There are pages and pages of references about what the year will bring depending on the condition of the Year ruler at the Solar return. Wading through them can be tough though.



I don't think we can, in all honesty. When you have only 7 planets to describe everything themes and archetypes are all you're going to get. I refrain from using houses to signify everything because, quite frankly, they don't work in the way they are commonly used now but merely give context to the significations of the planets, Mars in this case. I have seen it often where the MC/10th is highlighted along with Mars and we have attacks on character, trouble with enemies and such like (Konrad Adenauer with the Nazis for instance). I have seen attacks on the person and body with the Moon and so on. We can get very specific with timing, but in most cases we can only give thematic readings and describe the kinds of things in regard to what will happen.

So something along the lines of "this is going to be a bad year but we're not exactly sure how?" I don't know. Somehow I think it's supposed to be able to be more precise. I'm not arguing with you, Konrad, just more thinking out loud.

In this case, it's more than just attacks on the character and trouble with enemies. It's "hey, let's watch everything you own get stolen from you and make you have to file a lawsuit to get it back." That's kind of big...

Konrad
07-04-2013, 10:15 PM
I believe I mentioned above I've been having issues with Oracle? Because I still get Scorpio rising in the 2012 SR with the Babylonian zodiac. And I always use the birth place for Solar Returns.

Ah, you are probably using the 'Hellenistic' solar return rather than the 'modern' one which is what I use. I don't know where Curtis got the source for the calculation of that one.

Question...my understanding is that the profected year ruler is pretty important. Why wouldn't we want to look at what she's doing to see what happens? There are pages and pages of references about what the year will bring depending on the condition of the Year ruler at the Solar return. Wading through them can be tough though.It is important, and I'm not saying it isn't, but it isn't going to show everything which happens to someone in a year. There is also a passage in Abu Ma'shar's annual work which may be of interest to you:

Distributors (both benevolents and malevolents) have their own proper signification in the disposition of the distribution, and likewise those partnering with them by body and also rays, for they even have a certain power and more effective signification than the Lord of the Year: for the Lord of the Year signifies accidents for a single time, but the distributor signifies the passions which are signified in diverse times... (On Solar Revolutions, Dykes trans., p137)Granted he is talking of distributors but I think the principle can be carried over to Firdariyyah too since it also covers more lengthy streches of times.

So something along the lines of "this is going to be a bad year but we're not exactly sure how?" I don't know. Somehow I think it's supposed to be able to be more precise.Well actually it is a little more than that, but if that's how you receive it, that's how you receive it. If you think it can be more precise, then go for it but I have spent much too long trying to get everything down to the smallest details and my predictions suffered for it.

In this case, it's more than just attacks on the character and trouble with enemies. It's "hey, let's watch everything you own get stolen from you and make you have to file a lawsuit to get it back." That's kind of big...Well what do you think is happening in the chart? We have Mars attacking from all sides while he is doing the same in the nativity. A conjunction to Mars via the distributions is no small thing. Look to Konrad Adenauer's chart for 1933, the Nazis kicked him from power and his home and froze his bank accounts, all around the time of Mars in superior square to the directed ASC. I have another chart where Mars is influencing most of the time-lords and this guy was almost killed by a gang in Thailand.

In your husband's chart, Mars is attacking critical points in the chart: the Ruler(s) of the Nativity; the ASC lord; the ruler of both Lots; both triplicity lords of the Sect Light; the lady of the Syzygy. If Mars is doing something like this in the nativity , especially in the day-time, the time-lord pattern we are seeing in your husband's chart is not to be taken lightly, and so life is confriming for us.

tsmall
07-05-2013, 12:24 AM
Ah, you are probably using the 'Hellenistic' solar return rather than the 'modern' one which is what I use. I don't know where Curtis got the source for the calculation of that one.

No, I was using the modern one. Oracle has been giving me fits for weeks now. I should probably send Curtis a message about it. He got the calculations from Anthologies. I actually found it poetic that Valens cast the chart using the moment the Moon returns to it's natal moria for the ASC but keeping all the planets in their places for the time of the Sun returning, including the Moon. He told me it was because the Greeks couldn't easily find the ASC, which of course I questioned...but I digress.

It is important, and I'm not saying it isn't, but it isn't going to show everything which happens to someone in a year. There is also a passage in Abu Ma'shar's annual work which may be of interest to you:

Granted he is talking of distributors but I think the principle can be carried over to Firdariyyah too since it also covers more lengthy streches of times.

Clearly I need to read that one next. As soon as I finish muddling my way through Nativities. My admittedly newbie problem is that there are several methods of distributorship, none of which I'm more than passing familiar with.

Well actually it is a little more than that, but if that's how you receive it, that's how you receive it. If you think it can be more precise, then go for it but I have spent much too long trying to get everything down to the smallest details and my predictions suffered for it.

I apologize if my asking questions has offended you.

Well what do you think is happening in the chart? We have Mars attacking from all sides while he is doing the same in the nativity. A conjunction to Mars via the distributions is no small thing. Look to Konrad Adenauer's chart for 1933, the Nazis kicked him from power and his home and froze his bank accounts, all around the time of Mars in superior square to the directed ASC. I have another chart where Mars is influencing most of the time-lords and this guy was almost killed by a gang in Thailand.

In your husband's chart, Mars is attacking critical points in the chart: the Ruler(s) of the Nativity; the ASC lord; the ruler of both Lots; both triplicity lords of the Sect Light; the lady of the Syzygy. If Mars is doing something like this in the nativity , especially in the day-time, the time-lord pattern we are seeing in your husband's chart is not to be taken lightly, and so life is confriming for us.

I don't think I've been taking anything lightly. I have been under a great deal of stress myself (obviously, we are married...speaking of which I've yet to do the same for my chart) but that has neither stopped me from being able to think and question, nor has it done anything to dampen my sense of humor. Again, I aplogize if my questions offend you.

I will take it under advisement that we should therefore expect more of the same. However, what still doesn't show is the rest of what happened. Which has to have a mitigating factor for explanation.

The point of all of this was intended to completely destroy my husband, his reputation, and we have been told that the expectation was that we would lose our house and have to slink off into the sunset. Instead, what has happened is that even with this hanging over us unresolved...we are rebuilding. Why? Because no one believed it, and people started showing up. The world exploded on April 9th. On the 13th someone we had never met showed up in my driveway with a vehicle and handed me the title to it. Donations from friends and family and the general public paid my mortgage for two months (although my mortgage is privately held by a friend and he suggested that he might sell his house and move into our appartment so we could keep our home) and allowed us to procure the animals to deliver the programs that were being requested in droves. A friend of his in the industry added him to permits and allowed him to house the new animals as well as use his while we wait for our final permits in our own name to come in.

I've only been learning, on my own, for two years so I'll admit that I'm no where near as advanced as you are.

I guess I just believe that if we can't narrow down a prediction then what is the point in trying?

JUPITERASC
07-05-2013, 01:10 AM
Hi Konrad, thanks for taking so much time on this.

What I am trying to learn is how do we pinpoint the specifics of what is going to happen? We can say enimity, and that it will involve career/reputation, but how do we get more specific?
....My admittedly newbie problem is that there are several methods of distributorship, none of which I'm more than passing familiar with.....
....I've only been learning, on my own, for two years so I'll admit that I'm no where near as advanced as you are.

I guess I just believe that if we can't narrow down a prediction then what is the point in trying?....
QUOTES SOURCED FROM:
INSIGHT ON TIME LORDS
AT BEYOND THE HEAVEN BLOG http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/insight-on-time-lords/

'….My intensive examination of time-lord (periods) found that a bad Solar Return can spoil many good configurations set by the more general time-lords. It's extremely important to examine for the particular influence of that year. Many people do not look at life in periods, at most they view the year as a period of time on which they are concentrated.

Nailing down prediction into reading yearly influences is essential. Because, Jupiter and Venus may rule the Firdariyyāh, and their disposition in the natal chart is ok, and from inexperience, you would judge excitingly: ‘yeah, you will have good year’, is a certain way for leaning toward error. ...'


'...If these two planets are damaged in Solar Return, the good may be twisted, may never appear, or not last for long. These are 3 out of many particulars which an astrologer should consider in his examination, and can still err. Ancient astrologers were wise and set many different techniques in order to nail down through deductive reasoning, the probability of the climes and particulars of the time investigated. Error was not so much allowed in those times and today, a good astrologer doesn’t want to err and this is why one need to meditate deeply on the different kind of influences present at a particular unit of time. ...'


'….Those who have read Valens know how many different techniques he uses.

Not only because Valens loved all those techniques and want to have fun, but it was necessary for him to investigate more deeply the period set by different planets and their qualities. The same with Abū Ma’shar.

All these techniques have their own place and they are all relevant, even though all planets may be activated through this or that rulership or technique, they actually all have different purpose, different agenda, and different amount of power with which they operate in a certain period; some are subordinated to other, and some are leaders of the times....'

BobZemco
07-05-2013, 03:16 AM
It's enough to make your head spin.

The key is organization. I would like to help people with that, but being disorganized myself, that's probably not a good idea. I used to go from House-to-House, but that got to be tedious, so I started focusing only on activated Planets, and that works a lot better (for me).

I already know that Saturn is active in his chart because this is a sixth house profection year for my husband and while Saturn is not the Year Lord (Mercury gets that honor) Saturn is important because natally he is in the 6th.

Okay.

The ruler of the Sign in which the Profectional Ascendant falls is activated and becomes the Year Ruler. Any Planets in that Sign are also activated, because they are disposited (ruled) by the Year Ruler.

I know most profect in 30 increments, and that's fine, but I profect by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours. For example, if the Ascendant is 15 Sagittarius 45' then using 30 it will fall at 15 Capricorn 45' but profecting by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours, it falls at 7 Capricorn 56'.

Continuing, 4 Aquarius 01' then 6 Pisces 35' all the way until you get to 15 Gemini 45' (7th House).

As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference, but occasionally you'll find charts where the Profected Ascendant will fall exactly on a Natal Planet or a Lot...and that's really intense, just as a Solar Return Planet falling exactly on the Profected Ascendant.

Anyway, one other thing to clarify is that it is the Sign that is activated, not the House.

The Profected Ascendant has activated Capricorn, which means the House holding the Sign of Capricorn in your Solar Return is activated, and as you can see, it is Capricorn that sits on your 2nd House/Sign.

Any Planets falling in the Sign will play a key role.

I can't remember who, but someone says that Planets transiting the Sign of the Profected Ascendant are important, but I cannot trace its precursor. No else says it (Zael and ibn Ezra certainly don't), and in practice, I haven't seen a thing out of it, but if people want to explore that, go right ahead.

Here is what stands out to me.

In the radix chart Saturn is the ruler of the ASC, as well as the Almuten of the 2nd house. I believe, though I'm probably incorrect, that when a planet is "activated" it activates the houses it rules as well as the house it is in. So 1st, 2nd, and 6th, with the 10th house as well since Saturn is the exaltation ruler of Libra.

Yes, I would consider the Exalted Sign for the Year Ruler.

Note that in the SR Chart, Saturn in Scorpio is in aversion to Libra, but he can see Capricorn and Aquarius.

If a Planet is not in its own Sign, then is important to be connected by sextile, square, trine or opposition. That allows the Sign Ruler to manage the affairs in that House, even though he isn't physically there. It's like you can leave home, but still be connected: you can call or e-mail, and a family member there, or another you put in charge (the house-sitter, baby-sitter, dog-sitter) can take your instructions and carry them out.

If you have no connection to your home, then you really aren't in control.

The back story is on the other thread, but already we can see a theme emerging. 1st, 2nd, and 10th are easily understood, but the 6th sort of leads you to want to think illness.

I'm not sure that's it. Over time, Signs and Houses kind of got to be used interchangeably, even though they aren't necessarily the same thing. For Solar Returns, it's actually the Sign that comes to the Ascendant, not the House.

So, the Profected Asendant activates that Sign in your Natal Chart, plus your Solar Return Chart, and then the Sign that comes to your Solar Return Ascendant becomes activated in your both your Natal and Profectional Charts. And of course the Ascendant Sign in your Natal Chart is always activated in the Solar Return Chart.

So insert first question. Each house means several different things and al-Qabisi says that we are to look at the triplicity rulers to determine how they will fare. The 6th house represents the native's illness, slaves, and beasts. The 1st triplicity ruler tells about illness, the second about slaves and domestics, and the third what will come to the native because of those. Is there a way to "fine tune" the significations of the houses to determine which of these will be affected? I guess the question is, does the signifying triplicity ruler need to be activated as well?

Uh, if I understand the question correctly, you're asking: "Now that I've identified the Rulers and Signs involved for the year, what the hell do I do now?"

So the question becomes, since we know the worst Masha'Alla has written about happened, how do we judge if it will be reversed?

Before you do that, you have figure out exactly what's going on.

You probably already evaluated the condition of the Planets in the SR Chart, or at least the key players, and compared them to your Natal Chart.

A few pointers.

Mercury is not On-Station.

Not yet, anyway, and that is a big key in delineating the chart.

Mercury just crossed her own North Node so she's increasing in light and that's a +. She is within 12 of the Head and that's a +, so is being in her own Face, and being in the Bound of Jupiter and being received by Jupiter and being in a Bright Degree and being looked at by Venus and in aversion to Saturn. But Mercury is Slow and that's not good, and being Occidental Mercury is Female -- but in a Masculine Sign, House and Degree, and being Nocturnal (since she is Occidental) she is Above Earth....and so Out-of-Sect and in her own Detriment.

I should point out that some say the Head is in Fall in Sagittarius (and Tail in Fall in Gemini) but I'm not really sure about that and tend to ignore, since there's conflicting views on it.

Overall, Mercury is like a 2.5 on a Scale of 1 to 5.

At first glance, it appears that Mercury is applying to the sextile of Venus, but that isn't happening. Mercury did sextile Venus while Mercury was in Scorpio and Venus in Virgo, and due to Mercury's slowing, they stayed in the exact minute for nearly a week before Venus separated from Mercury.

Very, very important....it is Venus who separated from Mercury and Mercury is not applying to Venus.

Mercury cannot apply to Moon, because Moon is the faster of the two, so no aspect there. The next aspect is an opposition with Jupiter. Here's a case where a Planet goes Retrograde, then Direct, and still manages to perfect this opposition (with Mutual Reception) in Human Signs (Gemini plus the first 10 of Sagittarius).

I just can't help but notice the 10th Sign is Virgo -- Mercury -- ruling your fame and public standing, and the 9th House totally engulfs the 10th Sign.

And then the opposition is to Retrograde Jupiter. I was just commenting on another thread that is not an aspect, that is a collision and the signification of a Planet colliding with a Retrograde Planet is that you are being driven/forced/compelled to do something that you'd rather not do. That also fits well once again with the Out-of-Sect Mercury who is not Malefic (doing something it would not normally do otherwise)...and we saw the same thing in the Horary Chart.

Mercury never perfects the conjunction with Mars, because Mars changes Signs....but that is actually a good thing given that Mars rules Scorpio and Saturn is Retrograde there (meaning Saturn is weak even though he Joys in the 12th).

Anyway, with respect to health, Venus rules Taurus and Venus is in Libra in a Bright Degree, in a Degree of Increasing Fortune, sextile the Ascending Sign, trine the Ascendant Ruler and in aversion to Saturn.

No problems there (unless there's something freaky in the Natal Chart).

I mention that because sometimes it is easier to rule out what is not to be, and whatever is not ruled out is what it is.

I'll comment some more later, but right now I have to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly (because, you know, "specialization is for insects"...that's what Heinlein says).

dr. farr
07-05-2013, 03:26 AM
Just a note (although as such it won't really be helpful)-but in attempting to evaluate profections (Pauline) and Solar Returns (and even time lord considerations, from the oldtime Greco-Roman material) I ran into these same problems: I needed to find something to quantify the various indications, in order to get on firm ground regarding predictive work: for me, I found MY answer, in the adaptation of the ancient (pre-Parasara) and not generally known ashtakavarga concepts and calculations (from very ancient Vedic astrology) to our Western profection and SR models. I may eventually elaborate this adapted approach (I'd do it in the Predictive Astrology Forum), although for those interested I have outlined an application of this to SR (known as Annual Horoscopes or Varshaphal in Indian astrology) in several posts over on the Tropical Vedic Astrology.net forum site...

Konrad
07-05-2013, 06:57 AM
No, I was using the modern one. Oracle has been giving me fits for weeks now. I should probably send Curtis a message about it. He got the calculations from Anthologies. I actually found it poetic that Valens cast the chart using the moment the Moon returns to it's natal moria for the ASC but keeping all the planets in their places for the time of the Sun returning, including the Moon. He told me it was because the Greeks couldn't easily find the ASC, which of course I questioned...but I digress.

Well then you should yes, he is quite helpful and will appreciate you bringing him any bugs. I know the calculation of Valens but this doesn't match the 'Hellenistic' one on his program, and I wholeheartedly agree with you about his reasoning about why. I actually experimented with this Valens method of Revolutions, but using the whole chart for the moment the Moon entered the degree of the natal Moon and I found the way outlined by Abu Ma'shar to be more effectual.

I apologize if my asking questions has offended you.I'm not sure why I am giving you this imporession, if you were offending me I wouldn't respond to you.


The point of all of this was intended to completely destroy my husband, his reputation, and we have been told that the expectation was that we would lose our house and have to slink off into the sunset. Instead, what has happened is that even with this hanging over us unresolved...we are rebuilding. Why? Because no one believed it, and people started showing up. The world exploded on April 9th. On the 13th someone we had never met showed up in my driveway with a vehicle and handed me the title to it. Donations from friends and family and the general public paid my mortgage for two months (although my mortgage is privately held by a friend and he suggested that he might sell his house and move into our appartment so we could keep our home) and allowed us to procure the animals to deliver the programs that were being requested in droves. A friend of his in the industry added him to permits and allowed him to house the new animals as well as use his while we wait for our final permits in our own name to come in.

I guess I just believe that if we can't narrow down a prediction then what is the point in trying?And I am not really understanding what you are getting at. I read the chart and saw a lot of Martial influence and said so, and this is where I commented on the Martial effects I have seen bearing out in other charts. I didn't comment on the rest because you have a horary chart giving you an answer, and more importantly, I haven't really had that much experience in judging the results of law-suits from the nativity. I don't think it would be morally correct of me to publically practice on your chart seeing as you are so stressed out about this.

On the second point, I am quite pleased by the forewarning I have given myself in my own thematic and archetypal readings, but if you think you can be more precise, by all means go for it. Of course you can get the detail in hindsight, but when you are predicting in advance, I find that pretty difficult.

Konrad
07-05-2013, 07:02 AM
I can't remember who, but someone says that Planets transiting the Sign of the Profected Ascendant are important, but I cannot trace its precursor. No else says it (Zael and ibn Ezra certainly don't), and in practice, I haven't seen a thing out of it, but if people want to explore that, go right ahead.

Valens talks about it when giving his own method of profections and Abu Ma'shar mentons it, probably because he follows Valens in a lot of things.

tsmall
07-05-2013, 02:30 PM
Well then you should yes, he is quite helpful and will appreciate you bringing him any bugs. I know the calculation of Valens but this doesn't match the 'Hellenistic' one on his program, and I wholeheartedly agree with you about his reasoning about why. I actually experimented with this Valens method of Revolutions, but using the whole chart for the moment the Moon entered the degree of the natal Moon and I found the way outlined by Abu Ma'shar to be more effectual.

I wonder if the position of the Moon had any bearing on accuracy?



And I am not really understanding what you are getting at. I read the chart and saw a lot of Martial influence and said so, and this is where I commented on the Martial effects I have seen bearing out in other charts. I didn't comment on the rest because you have a horary chart giving you an answer, and more importantly, I haven't really had that much experience in judging the results of law-suits from the nativity. I don't think it would be morally correct of me to publically practice on your chart seeing as you are so stressed out about this.

Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces I would still plant my apple tree.

Prescience is Useful. Ptolemy tells us it is useful not so that we can change what is to be (because we can't) but so that we may be able to accept it with a calm mind.

My purpose for opening this thread is to learn about revolutions, and to hope that others can benefit/learn as well. Often for study we use the charts of well known figures and to me this is good, but with those charts we can never get the full story. All astrologers seem to start with their own charts. Valens opens Anthologies with his own chart. Why? Well, I can't go and ask him but I would imagine it wasn't ego. When you practice with your own chart, or in this case the chart of a student, you have the complete experience to use in order to objectively tell if the methods work or not.

What I wrote about the rest of the story was to illustrate that there has to be somthing mitigating Mars' influence in the chart because even though the event was bad, the rest of it was not. Did that make sense? Mercury is retrograde so miscommunication could happen...

Yes, there is an answer per the horary chart. The point here is to see how revolutions work.

Most of the time when students want to learn about Solar returns they want to use the current chart, but as Bob pointed out on the other thread (and this one, and in other places) some years nothing really big happens and so we want to worry about the years when it does. This year, clearly something that was/is a big deal happened. So we have a chart that ought to be actively showing this, and the events are still unfolding, and we have someone who can answer questions.

As far as being stressed out, I'm a mom of three (with all that entails,) I have a full time job that involves working with the public, I'm trying to help rebuild a business, I have bills to pay and so worry about finances, the lawn needs mowing, the vacuum cleaner broke...

Life stresses us all. Learning astrology is fun, it engages the mind, and I find it relaxing.

Kuntuzangmo
07-05-2013, 02:36 PM
What is a 'profection'?

tsmall
07-05-2013, 02:57 PM
I know most profect in 30 increments, and that's fine, but I profect by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours. For example, if the Ascendant is 15 Sagittarius 45' then using 30 it will fall at 15 Capricorn 45' but profecting by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours, it falls at 7 Capricorn 56'.

Continuing, 4 Aquarius 01' then 6 Pisces 35' all the way until you get to 15 Gemini 45' (7th House).

I think my eyes just glazed over. And I just had a flashback to high school trig and specifically asking my teacher what possible purpose in life finding the pitch of a roof would serve me...

Oblique Ascension is difficult enough (I'm still trying to understand it,) but how are you calculating it using Diurnal Hours? This is the reason astrologers need to be good at math.

As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference, but occasionally you'll find charts where the Profected Ascendant will fall exactly on a Natal Planet or a Lot...and that's really intense, just as a Solar Return Planet falling exactly on the Profected Ascendant.

You mean like Mars sitting on the SR ASC?

Anyway, one other thing to clarify is that it is the Sign that is activated, not the House.

Ah. I still get stuck in thinking of the signs as the places as the houses.



Uh, if I understand the question correctly, you're asking: "Now that I've identified the Rulers and Signs involved for the year, what the hell do I do now?"

Exactly.





Mercury is not On-Station.

Not yet, anyway, and that is a big key in delineating the chart.

Ok. In natal charts from all that I have read we are supposed to look seven days ahead and back to see if any planets are stationing. Do we not consider Mercury here because his stations are actually shorter (meaning the need to adjust how far back and forward we look at Mercury in natal charts compared to the other planets) or is it just because we want to look at his condition exactly as it is in the moment?

Mercury just crossed her own North Node so she's increasing in light and that's a +.

Planetary nodes are mentioned in all the old literature I've read, but I've not seen them used in practice.


Very, very important....it is Venus who separated from Mercury and Mercury is not applying to Venus.

I <think> I understand why, but could you explain?



I'll comment some more later, but right now I have to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly (because, you know, "specialization is for insects"...that's what Heinlein says).

:cool:

Konrad
07-05-2013, 02:59 PM
What I wrote about the rest of the story was to illustrate that there has to be somthing mitigating Mars' influence in the chart because even though the event was bad, the rest of it was not. Did that make sense? Mercury is retrograde so miscommunication could happen...

Yes, the mitigation would be the strength of Venus in the revolution and the fact that Mars is not ruling the times, rather the benefics are. Sure he is influencing them strongly, but ultimately the time is theirs to manage. I'd be a lot more worried if the distributions were in a Mars/Mars time or the Firdariyyah were Saturn/Mars. This is the difference between Mars influencing events and Mars managing them

Yes, there is an answer per the horary chart. The point here is to see how revolutions work.And the point I am making is that the revolutions should never be read without looking beyond them and the profections to the Distributions or the Firdariyyah or another broad time-lord system to give the annual significations some sort of context. Our life doesn't change one year to the next, but our circumstances within the larger chunks of time do and this is where I see the profections and revolutions slotting into the larger cycles.

Most of the time when students want to learn about Solar returns they want to use the current chart, but as Bob pointed out on the other thread (and this one, and in other places) some years nothing really big happens and so we want to worry about the years when it does. This year, clearly something that was/is a big deal happened. So we have a chart that ought to be actively showing this, and the events are still unfolding, and we have someone who can answer questions.Yep, and I am arguing that this particular big deal goes beyond profections and revolutions and that it is managed by the broader time-lord systems, especially the distributions. You're just not going to see something of this magnitude using Profections and Revolutions alone.

As far as being stressed out, I'm a mom of three (with all that entails,) I have a full time job that involves working with the public, I'm trying to help rebuild a business, I have bills to pay and so worry about finances, the lawn needs mowing, the vacuum cleaner broke...

Life stresses us all. Learning astrology is fun, it engages the mind, and I find it relaxing.Great! Good luck with all of that. I am glad you find such a rewarding subject fun.

tsmall
07-06-2013, 03:06 AM
Just a note (although as such it won't really be helpful)-but in attempting to evaluate profections (Pauline) and Solar Returns (and even time lord considerations, from the oldtime Greco-Roman material) I ran into these same problems: I needed to find something to quantify the various indications, in order to get on firm ground regarding predictive work:

Precisely. Which is why I opened my OP with the comment that it's enough to make your head spin.

dr. farr
07-06-2013, 03:56 AM
What is a 'profection'?

This refers to a predictive method which advances the ascendant (of the natal chart) through each of the signs (in their order in the natal chart), one sign at a time, for each year of the subject's life. It originated in Hellenist times, and with various modifications, continued as a popular yearly predictive model, through the Reformation, after which time (in Europe and America) it (largely) fell into disuse, until the Traditionalist revival over the past 20 years. It was rivaled in popularity by Solar Revolutions (now known as Solar Returns), and was always (historically) more popular than transits (in Western astrology)-by Islamic transitional era times, profection had become incorporated in various unfied techniques, with Solar Revolutions (Solar Returns)

Vedic astrology never used profection, although Indian astrology's concept of the Annual Horoscope is pretty much identical to the Western Solar Return method.
The "time lord" concepts and methodology of Hellenist-through-Renaissance Western astrology, are similar to the "dasha" systems of Vedic astrology, the "dashas" being the premier predictive model in Vedic astrology from the time of Parasara (ie, from very early Indian astrological times)

Moog
07-06-2013, 01:08 PM
Vedic astrology never used profection, although Indian astrology's concept of the Annual Horoscope is pretty much identical to the Western Solar Return method.

Actually, profection in Jyotish seems to be part and parcel of Varshaphala, which is the Vedic annual chart/return/revolution technique.

It's tied into the 'Tajika' branch, which seems to have come from Persian astrology.

I was learning Varshaphala recently, and I was surprised too.

The profected sign is called the 'Muntha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntha_(astrology))'.

tsmall
07-07-2013, 12:08 AM
The ruler of the Sign in which the Profectional Ascendant falls is activated and becomes the Year Ruler. Any Planets in that Sign are also activated, because they are disposited (ruled) by the Year Ruler.

The Profected Ascendant has activated Capricorn, which means the House holding the Sign of Capricorn in your Solar Return is activated, and as you can see, it is Capricorn that sits on your 2nd House/Sign.

All right, since I keep getting mixed up with signs/places/houses, I printed the chart and shaded the areas that should be activated. Sometimes pictures help. Also puppets and crayons, but...

Just to make sure I have it correctly, the signs by profection we are concerned with are the signs Mercury rules (Gemini, and Virgo, and since Virgo is the 9th sign in the natal, and on the 9th cusp, this is going to be how we get lawsuit into this year?) and the signs Saturn rules so Capricorn, Aquarius, and Libra.

The natal ASC is in Capricorn, Capricorn is the second house and sign in the SR, and Gemini brings the 6th house and sign to the ASC? So we are looking at a 1st/6th/2nd highlight? This was how I was looking at SR's and profections last year, but when I asked Curtis (the deveoper of Delphic Oracle) to help me figure out a way to get all three charts on one wheel it couldn't be done, and he said he'd never heard of anyone needing such a chart. Which led me to believe I was doing something wrong.

Any Planets falling in the Sign will play a key role.

I know that there are astrologers who seem to think that the seven classical planets aren't enough and so want to add more planets and other assorted heavenly bodies, but frankly sometimes seven is too many. The idea is to figure out who's in the game and who's on the bench, right? At first I was going to ask falling in the sign in which chart (SR or natal) but then I figured <guessed> that we want to look at both...which planets are in the activated signs natally, and which planets are in those signs in the SR...because in this example, Mars in the natal is not the same Mars that is in the Solar Return chart. This is where sock puppets would be handy.


Note that in the SR Chart, Saturn in Scorpio is in aversion to Libra, but he can see Capricorn and Aquarius.

Which is why it's probably a good thing that Venus is in Libra in the SR chart? This brings me to another diversionary question. Exaltation rulers. Lilly only gives planets in exaltation 4 points (please note, I'm not necessiarily a big fan of his weighing system) and no one seems to want to talk about them as alternate rulers of signs. My newbie take? feeling? impression? take your pick, is that plantes in exaltation (for example Saturn in Libra, or Mars in Capricorn, or Venus in Pisces) often have expectations that might not be lived up to by the rest of the chart, but they have huge bearing on the signs they rule by exaltation. This is probably going to turn out to be another thing I've got wrong.

Any way, Venus in Libra in the SR chart is in the 11th sign but the 10th house, which brings us to this.


Very, very important....it is Venus who separated from Mercury and Mercury is not applying to Venus.

Nothing I've read so far (it's only been a couple of years, so I'm sure it's out there and I just haven't found it.) wants to talk about separating aspects, except to say that it is considered "crossing over", or disregard. Meaning that Venus is all done with Mercury. Wouldn't we need to look (at an ephemeris) to see what Venus is going to do next? And how exactly are we supposed to interpret separating aspects? Is the thing that was being pushed when the aspect was applying already incorporated, or is it just a case of "I'm all set with you?"

I just can't help but notice the 10th Sign is Virgo -- Mercury -- ruling your fame and public standing, and the 9th House totally engulfs the 10th Sign.

Totally engulfs but does not intercept. Cusp of the 9th is in the 1st degree of Virgo, and Mercury is going to back up and square it, then go direct and square it again. This is where simply following the rules can cause you to miss something in the chart? As in can't see the forest for the trees?


Mercury cannot apply to Moon, because Moon is the faster of the two, so no aspect there. The next aspect is an opposition with Jupiter. Here's a case where a Planet goes Retrograde, then Direct, and still manages to perfect this opposition (with Mutual Reception) in Human Signs (Gemini plus the first 10 of Sagittarius).

I could spend six days trying to figure out what's so bad about human signs, but the easier way is to ask.

Getting back to MR, again most of the astrologers I know and/or have read (today's traditional astrologers, not the dead astrologers' society) seem to agree that MR by detriment doesn't mean a dang thing. But I see it as a sort of detante. Do you have an opinion?

And then the opposition is to Retrograde Jupiter. I was just commenting on another thread that is not an aspect, that is a collision and the signification of a Planet colliding with a Retrograde Planet is that you are being driven/forced/compelled to do something that you'd rather not do. That also fits well once again with the Out-of-Sect Mercury who is not Malefic (doing something it would not normally do otherwise)...and we saw the same thing in the Horary Chart.

I need to go find the thread for context. How do you determine "collision?"

Mercury never perfects the conjunction with Mars, because Mars changes Signs....but that is actually a good thing given that Mars rules Scorpio and Saturn is Retrograde there (meaning Saturn is weak even though he Joys in the 12th).

I need to spend more time with this one. I haven't figured out Mars yet in this chart, but I cannot help but think that Mars on the SR ASC isn't cool. The nature of Mars is to sever and separate...

Anyway, with respect to health, Venus rules Taurus and Venus is in Libra in a Bright Degree, in a Degree of Increasing Fortune, sextile the Ascending Sign, trine the Ascendant Ruler and in aversion to Saturn.

No problems there (unless there's something freaky in the Natal Chart).

I mention that because sometimes it is easier to rule out what is not to be, and whatever is not ruled out is what it is.

I don't think there is anything freaky there (other than that he is an evangelist about health...you could call it a religion if you like,) but I'll be sure to note that the paleo diet seems to be working for him.

dr. farr
07-07-2013, 03:44 AM
Actually, profection in Jyotish seems to be part and parcel of Varshaphala, which is the Vedic annual chart/return/revolution technique.

It's tied into the 'Tajika' branch, which seems to have come from Persian astrology.

Right: the concept of profection came to Indian astrology from the West, no trace of the profection methodology being found in the Classical Vedic works of Parasara, Jaimini, Brighu, etc...

Moog
07-07-2013, 01:38 PM
Right: the concept of profection came to Indian astrology from the West, no trace of the profection methodology being found in the Classical Vedic works of Parasara, Jaimini, Brighu, etc...

I see.

So you are seeing Tajika as being technically 'non vedic', but rather coming under the larger umbrella of Jyotish?

tsmall
07-08-2013, 03:01 AM
Well, I answered one of my own questions, and turns out I had read and not retained the significance.

Nothing I've read so far (it's only been a couple of years, so I'm sure it's out there and I just haven't found it.) wants to talk about separating aspects, except to say that it is considered "crossing over", or disregard. Meaning that Venus is all done with Mercury. Wouldn't we need to look (at an ephemeris) to see what Venus is going to do next? And how exactly are we supposed to interpret separating aspects? Is the thing that was being pushed when the aspect was applying already incorporated, or is it just a case of "I'm all set with you?"

From Introductions to Traditional Astrology, Dykes

For example, if two planets signify the partners in a relationship, then a separating aspect between them shows an active neglect or disregard, or one partner not paying attention anymore. For disregard or separation is not simply a lack of connection, but an active denial of a connection which was already assumed to exist.

Jupiter is not in great shape in the SR chart. He's on the wrong side of the ASC from the Sun (-), in masculine sign and degree (+). He's in detriment(-) but has some dignity for being in his own bound(+). Struck by Mars' ray for being within 3* of opposition (-) and he's sitting on the descendant (-). Oh, and he's retrograde (-). He's in mutual reception with Mercury. (+) Jupiter is out of sect. I can't tell if he's a functional malefic in this chart, but at the very least he is doing something that he wouldn't normally do, doing something inappropriate.

Venus applies to Jupiter by trine, and Venus is able to help Jupiter, but before that aspect perfects the Moon will interfere.

Getting back to the question of separating aspects, the Mars/Jupiter opposition is separating by about 3*. This should make the effect of the opposition still active, but color the interpretation. The quote above says that Jupiter is no longer paying attention to Mars. Which is seriously bad news because Mars is on the ASC and making his presence known. So whatever it is about Mars that Jupiter isn't paying attention to is going to bite him in the ***.

How to narrow it down? This is where I just started thinking. Because Mars is L12 and L4 (houses, not signs) and the exaltation ruler of 2. Ok, what houses from his position in Gemini can Jupiter witness? Or more appropriately, what are the houses Jupiter cannot witness? 12 and 2. So secret or hidden enemies and the second house of income.

dr. farr
07-08-2013, 03:17 AM
So you are seeing Tajika as being technically 'non vedic', but rather coming under the larger umbrella of Jyotish?

Yes (but in no way impugning the Tajik innovations in its synthesis of classical Indian astrology with its own Western-influenced traditions)
For me, Indian astrology (jyotish) blends several traditions; the purely "Vedic" traditions per se, I consider to be represented by the Parasara "mainstream", and by the Jaimini and Nadi minority branches; outside of this "purely Vedic" definition, but within jyotish, we have the Tajik stream, the KP stream (albeit very close to the Parasara mainstream), and the Lal Kitab stream (indeed, the hardly known Jain astrology might well represent another stream as well)

Note: Moog and I seem to be discussing matters rather off the topic of this thread:surprised:-we're not trying to hijack the thread though, we've simply gotten off on a related road:sideways:!

tsmall
07-08-2013, 03:21 AM
Note: Moog and I seem to be discussing matters rather off the topic of this thread:surprised:-we're not trying to hijack the thread though, we've simply gotten off on a related road:sideways:!

I think it's fine. :smile:

Moog
07-08-2013, 11:55 PM
Yes (but in no way impugning the Tajik innovations in its synthesis of classical Indian astrology with its own Western-influenced traditions)
For me, Indian astrology (jyotish) blends several traditions; the purely "Vedic" traditions per se, I consider to be represented by the Parasara "mainstream", and by the Jaimini and Nadi minority branches; outside of this "purely Vedic" definition, but within jyotish, we have the Tajik stream, the KP stream (albeit very close to the Parasara mainstream), and the Lal Kitab stream (indeed, the hardly known Jain astrology might well represent another stream as well)

Note: Moog and I seem to be discussing matters rather off the topic of this thread:surprised:-we're not trying to hijack the thread though, we've simply gotten off on a related road:sideways:!

Yes, thank you for clarifying. I see it similarly.

I think though that to those not entirely familiar with the different branches of astrology employed under the umbrella of Vedic astrology/Hindu astrology/Jyotish, it's all one thing.

And I thought it would be useful to make the distinction, and connect the dots between traditions, as is my preference, rather than create more separation.

Moog
07-08-2013, 11:56 PM
Note: Moog and I seem to be discussing matters rather off the topic of this thread:surprised:-we're not trying to hijack the thread though, we've simply gotten off on a related road:sideways:!

My 'problem' is that all roads are related in some way :whistling:

dr. farr
07-09-2013, 03:02 AM
My 'problem' is that all roads are related in some way :whistling:

I think so too-which is largely what has made me an eclectic:bandit::biggrin:!

tsmall
07-09-2013, 03:14 AM
My 'problem' is that all roads are related in some way :whistling:



I think so too-which is largely what has made me an eclectic!

Ok, we're all eclectic. Meanwhile tsmall is talking to herself again over here. If all roads are related in some way, does anyone have anything to say on if I'm doing it correctly or not??

dr. farr
07-09-2013, 03:24 AM
Answer is, does what you are doing "work" in providing what you consider to be correct or accurate delineations and predictive outcomes? I think that is the only criteria in assessing whether what we are doing (ie what road/s we have chosen to follow) is right (correct) or not! Of course you have been studying only 2 years, so it is rather too early to make such an assessment-you have just been learning certain basic elements and approaches, just been getting information about various delineative and predictive models "under your belt": see how well trying to APPLY the models, ACTUALLY works out! The continue, or (if it doesn't work all that well for YOU), change roads!

BobZemco
07-10-2013, 06:28 AM
Oblique Ascension is difficult enough (I'm still trying to understand it,) but how are you calculating it using Diurnal Hours? This is the reason astrologers need to be good at math.

The Ascendant axis tells the length of day (or night) at your Latitude at a given time in the year (Diurnal/Nocturnal Hours). The only thing going on here is this time is divided in half to show how long it would take the Ascendant to rise to the vertical point and that is roughly 2 "units" (I'm reluctant to say "hours"), 2 units and then 2 more units to the vertical point.

We're factoring in Signs of Short and Long Ascension, so if you happen to be at Latitude 3403' and if the Obliquity of Earth happens to be 2326' and if you happened to be staring at 27 Aries rising, then it would take 5 minutes before you see 29 Aries come up, but if you were looking at 27 Libra, it would take 10 minutes to rise to 29.....hence Signs of Short and Long Ascension.

If I had to guess, I'd say it didn't really add anything that wasn't already known or inferred from the chart, so they used a simpler method of profecting in 30 increments, which is just fine and dandy.

I threw it out there so people would know there is an alternative method. Neither method is "right" or "wrong" or better than the other. Sometimes charts are "funny" and you need all the help you can get.

You mean like Mars sitting on the SR ASC?

Uh, yeah, something like that.

Ah. I still get stuck in thinking of the signs as the places as the houses.

But don't over-look the signification of the House Types.

Remember that Angular Houses signify the beginning of everything. In a Natal Chart the beginning of your life; in a Solar Return Chart the beginning of this year of your life; in Horary/Electional the beginning of the Question; and in Mundane the beginning of the event.

Specifically the angles show areas of your life; 1st House - you; 10th House - career/job/profession/reputation/honor/standing; the 7th - others; and the 4th - parents, home and family, and what begins there.

In Solar Returns, the 7th would represent new relationships, but it should not be construed so narrowly that the focus is only on conjugal or marital relationships. Likewise the 10th should not be limited to "job" only, even though that is where you'd look in a Solar Return for a new job (but a "new" employer could simply be your company being taken over by another, or sold to another etc).

Succeedent Houses show a continuation of those things that already exist, while Cadent Houses show change or endings.

The ruler of an Angular, Succeedent, or Cadent House being in the same or another Angular, Succeedent or Cadent House doesn't really mean a whole lot.

It's when they are in other House Types that matters.

Cadent House Ruler in any Succeedent House indicates change; while in any Angular House it is something coming to an end. And here is where Retrogradation can help, because it often suggests slow painful change/ending (and the same would be true if the Significator Planet were impeded or otherwise distressed). When the Significators are in applying aspects, and Retrogradation is involved, then again, it can suggest something changing/ending abruptly, or forcefully, instead of simply dissipating.

Understand I'm talking about SR Charts and Mundane Charts mainly here, but in a Natal Chart, that will be a sort of Archetype or a Theme that plays out over and over in one's life.

With the 7th, it could be abrupt changes or forced changes in relationships, and that could be very broad as it relates to all relationships, or it could be very narrow, meaning only physical relationships, or only business/partnerships (think of musicians who were many different groups).

With the 4th, abrupt changes in family life, whatever they might be. You see that with adoptees, foster kids and sometimes people whose parents divorced.

Obviously 10th you're an hero, you're a goat, you're an hero....or changing jobs abruptly, changing career etc, and then of course, if the 1st House is involved, then life's a roller-coaster.

It's also applicable to health, wealth, travel, religion, friends, and of course death.

Succeedent Ruler in an Angular or Cadent House is same-same only maybe slightly more exciting, or slightly more dull.

An Angular Ruler in a Cadent House would be a slow start, perhaps even a "false start" and then in a Succeedent House something more balanced and paced (like a marathon runner would do), instead of being on a rocket-sled.

And don't forget the Signs.....the Signs can give hints to approximate time frames (up to 3 months, 3 to 6 months or 6 months to a year or longer) and then also show the "Degree of Rigidity."

A Fixed Sign suggests something straight and narrow, moving with a purpose and not a lot of flexibility. Moveable sights some flexibility -- which also hints that you have some control or input -- and then Mutable Signs which show very rapid fluid developments -- perhaps a little too much flexibility (to the point where one may be over-whelmed).

Ok. In natal charts from all that I have read we are supposed to look seven days ahead and back to see if any planets are stationing. Do we not consider Mercury here because his stations are actually shorter (meaning the need to adjust how far back and forward we look at Mercury in natal charts compared to the other planets) or is it just because we want to look at his condition exactly as it is in the moment?

Not aware of that. I have Mercury On-Station. I don't think a few days would make a difference.

I seem to recall something about newborn infants looking ahead, but I don't remember why, and my brain is scrambledy eggs right now, so I couldn't even begin to piece together the logic.

The reason we look ahead, is because of the terminology used....Venus is seeking to join/aspect a Planet....as in Venus needs or wants to aspect a Planet.

How does that story end?

Does Venus get what she wants? Does Venus get what she needs? Does Venus find what she was seeking?

Is there really a Pot-O'-Gold at the end of that rainbow, or is it just Seinfeld ready with a snappy one-liner? Or maybe Officer O'Reilly -- you're busted.

And this success or failure to perfect the aspect, how well it succeeds or how badly it fails, is part of the archetypical life.

Planetary nodes are mentioned in all the old literature I've read, but I've not seen them used in practice.

It detracts from a Planets strength and fortune.

I <think> I understand why, but could you explain?

A lot of people would look at the chart, assume that Mercury is applying to Venus and then misinterpret that, especially since they are in moiety.

In reality, Venus has separated from Mercury, and Mercury is not seeking or want to aspect Venus at that time.

All right, since I keep getting mixed up with signs/places/houses, I printed the chart and shaded the areas that should be activated. Sometimes pictures help.

Yes, they do. Great idea.

Just to make sure I have it correctly, the signs by profection we are concerned with are the signs Mercury rules (Gemini, and Virgo, and since Virgo is the 9th sign in the natal, and on the 9th cusp, this is going to be how we get lawsuit into this year?) and the signs Saturn rules so Capricorn, Aquarius, and Libra.

That's one way, and note those are all Human Signs.

Human Signs indicate human involvement, as opposed to animal Signs....I would not expect to be sued by a giraffe, however I might expect to be eaten by a bear.

Human-to-Human Signs indicates humans; Human-to-non-Human is people to things, and non-Human-to-non-Human is what it is. If your house were destroyed in a wildfire, tornado, earthquake, landslide, sink-hole, hurricane or flood, you wouldn't see Human Signs there, but if your house was destroyed by arson, then yes, an Human Sign would be involved.

Health/Illness same way. Human-to-Human, or Human-to-non-Human would be the case for sexually transmitted diseases, any diseases that involved humans, like Listeria or E. Coli outbreaks, and other communicable diseases, like Tuberculosis.

Non-human Signs would be things like the Bovine Sponge-Bob Brain Syndrome, Lyme Disease, Rabies and such.

The natal ASC is in Capricorn, Capricorn is the second house and sign in the SR, and Gemini brings the 6th house and sign to the ASC? So we are looking at a 1st/6th/2nd highlight? This was how I was looking at SR's and profections last year, but when I asked Curtis (the deveoper of Delphic Oracle) to help me figure out a way to get all three charts on one wheel it couldn't be done, and he said he'd never heard of anyone needing such a chart. Which led me to believe I was doing something wrong.

Uh, I do it all the time.

I use SolarFire, and just pick a three-ring wheel, put the natal as the base chart, the profection around that, and then the return around that.

If I wanted, I could make the return the base chart, and then lay the profection and natal charts around that.

And, if I wanted, I could use a four-ring chart and throw Lots around the outside, or a Lunation Chart.

I know that there are astrologers who seem to think that the seven classical planets aren't enough and so want to add more planets and other assorted heavenly bodies, but frankly sometimes seven is too many. The idea is to figure out who's in the game and who's on the bench, right?

That is exactly right.

People said certain Planets cast light and additionally hurl rays at each other, not to mention they said that certain aspects are positive, while others are negative, and one can be either/or.

9,000 years later, science proved those people to be right.

Someone just recently said something about they have a Transfer of Light from Uranus to another......a Planet that doesn't cast/reflect light couldn't possibly transfer light to another Planet (which is one reason we don't use the Outer Planets......if you're waiting on a Transfer from Pluto, that just ain't gonna happen...not in this Universe).

At first I was going to ask falling in the sign in which chart (SR or natal) but then I figured <guessed> that we want to look at both...which planets are in the activated signs natally, and which planets are in those signs in the SR...because in this example, Mars in the natal is not the same Mars that is in the Solar Return chart. This is where sock puppets would be handy.

Nicely done.

Which is why it's probably a good thing that Venus is in Libra in the SR chart? This brings me to another diversionary question. Exaltation rulers. Lilly only gives planets in exaltation 4 points (please note, I'm not necessiarily a big fan of his weighing system) and no one seems to want to talk about them as alternate rulers of signs. My newbie take? feeling? impression? take your pick, is that plantes in exaltation (for example Saturn in Libra, or Mars in Capricorn, or Venus in Pisces) often have expectations that might not be lived up to by the rest of the chart, but they have huge bearing on the signs they rule by exaltation.

Okay, now I have something new to think about and research.

I use a simple scoring system of +1/0/-1 since something either aids a Planet, does nothing, or hinders a Planet.

If I were to use a weighted system, the only thing I would change is +2 for Exaltation or Fortune Degree, and -2 for Fall or Pitted Degree (so those either really help or really hinder) and leave it at that.

First, the doctrines about Exaltation are a wee bit muddled. There are at least three variations: a Planet is exalted in the Sign; the Planet is exalted only at the Degree of Exaltation; the Planet is not exalted until it reaches the Degree of Exaltation, and then continues to be exalted until it exits the Sign.

I consider the entire Sign. Seriously, the 27th (26) 28th (27) of Pisces are Pitted/Welled.

I fail to see how being Pitted in the 27th Degree of Pisces exalts Venus.

Likewise, the Degree of Exaltation for Mars in Capricorn is an Azieme Degree.

In a Day Chart, Venus in Pisces Below Earth is not the same as Venus in Pisces Above Earth. For one thing, Venus in Pisces Below Earth in a Day Chart is in Sect, while Above Earth she is not in Sect (which is not the same thing as being totally Out-of Sect).

An exalted Planet not in Sect tends to act haughty or arrogant (even more so when Angular).

Remember that Sect has to do with competence a great deal. An exalted Planet in Sect is going to be cocky/arrogant because of high self-esteem or self-confidence. And here's where applying aspects can modify that, because an aspect with Sun or Jupiter could lead to excessive pride, or over-confidence --- which can be harmful at times.

When not in Sect, that would be haughty or arrogant for other reasons, like short-comings, and here again, aspects with other Planets can modify that.

Wouldn't we need to look (at an ephemeris) to see what Venus is going to do next? And how exactly are we supposed to interpret separating aspects? Is the thing that was being pushed when the aspect was applying already incorporated, or is it just a case of "I'm all set with you?"

Sure, as always, separating aspects show what happened in the past.

"It's a Natal Chart...I don't have a past."

Yes, you do.

Obviously the separating Planet could not represent you (although if the 6th House were involved with the 8th it could indicate some kind of in utero medical procedure).

If it isn't you, then logically it would be your sibling(s), parents, maternal grandparents, paternal grandparents, your mother's siblings, your father's siblings and so on.

Some separating aspects with significators for mother/father can indicate violence, verbal abuse, conflicts do to financial problems, or extra-marital affairs, or the could even indicate that your parents only recently married (with you being the shot-gun baby).

Obviously in Revolutions, Mundane and Electional/Horary Charts, separating aspects will have other significations.

Here's where House Types come into play: separating indicating something recently begun? Something that has changed? Something that has ended?

And actually, it would be, "What is the Planet going to do next whilst in this Sign?"

Totally engulfs but does not intercept. Cusp of the 9th is in the 1st degree of Virgo, and Mercury is going to back up and square it, then go direct and square it again. This is where simply following the rules can cause you to miss something in the chart? As in can't see the forest for the trees?

I guess it depends a lot on how you view the whole Sign/House thing (no pun intended).

Myself, for all the research I've done, I conclude the Signs came first, but they did use an House System. It would have been elegantly simple and logical (I'm actually experimenting now with the system I believe they may have used).

Beginning in 2100 BCE, you have about 3,000 years of upheaval and conflict. Lots of disarray, and much knowledge is lost or forgotten. Then, more conflicts with the rise of the Amorite Kingdom, followed by the Assyrians and the Neo-Babylonians (not to mention conflict in areas on the periphery of Mesopotamia).

During that time period of conflict, it seems the only thing they were doing is calculating the Ascendant.

There's no Midheaven.

The problem with rituals, is that over time, people forget why they are doing what they are doing. Everyone hangs Mistletoe and puts out a Yule-log, but does anyone really understand why?

No.

But 400 years ago, the Puritans did, and that's why they banned Christmas (and birthdays and **** near everything else --- uh, when they weren't burning witches).

Think about that.

Really.

400 years ago, you had mechanical printing presses, followed by electromechanical printing presses, then radio, television, and the internet, plus wireless communication....

...and in the space of a mere 400 years, everyone has forgotten why we hang Mistletoe and why we light a Yule-log and why we do a lot of other things.

So....without all of those conveniences, how much knowledge do you think was lost in the space of about 1,000 years and in particular during periods of constant conflict?

Over time, they lost the many, many mathematical tables necessary to calculate the Midheaven and Houses and/or forgot how to do it -- because it wasn't taught or wasn't taught very well -- and then they forgot why they were doing it.

But then they learn the math again, start calculating the Midheaven again (probably because someone found a text or texts discussing the Midheaven) and that brought about Quadrants.

As you know, ever since then, people have been trying to figure out a way to crow-bar the Midheaven/Ascendant into an House System.

Very obviously, there's some over-lap, and the function of a proper House System is to show you how much (or how little) over-lap there is.

I could spend six days trying to figure out what's so bad about human signs, but the easier way is to ask.

Nothing is "bad" about them per se. They indicate context, and here that would be human involvement.

Aquarius, Libra, Gemini, Virgo and the first 10 of Sagittarius are Human Signs, but note that Aquarius and Libra are also Violent Signs.

Aquarius and Libra are Violent Human Signs --- and so is Gemini if Saturn is in Gemini and if Saturn is also the Air Triplicity Ruler and he is Malefic (more so than usual meaning Sun is in an applying aspect to Saturn in Gemini and Saturn does not receive Sun, nor Sun receive Saturn, or Mars is in an applying aspect to Saturn in Gemini and there is no Reception). Similar for first 10 of Sagittarius --- depends on which Planet is sitting there, who is aspecting whom, and the level of Reception.

Getting back to MR, again most of the astrologers I know and/or have read (today's traditional astrologers, not the dead astrologers' society) seem to agree that MR by detriment doesn't mean a dang thing. But I see it as a sort of detante. Do you have an opinion?

Detente.

Wow, I haven't heard that word since the days of idiot Nixon and the other duplicitous idiot Kissinger.

Oppositions are conflict. The level and intensity of conflict, and the way in which the conflict manifests itself is based entirely on the two Planets involved, the level of Reception, and the Signs involved.

Moon and Mars are Planetary Enemies, but Venus and Mars are Planetary Friends (and Venus is the only Friend of Mars).

Reception is about "allowing" or granting permission. Being in a place you don't really want to be, and then having restrictions placed on you, or being forced to do things, makes being in the place you don't want to be that much worse.

But, being received, and so being allowed to act, is at least tolerable to some degree, and then when there's Mutual Reception, there's an air of civility, even though there may be intense animosity.

The stronger the MR, the greater the level of detente. It would be possible for two Planets to be Planetary Friends, and in MR, and then also have mutual reception by Triplicity or Bound or Face (or a combination).

The Signs are important, because Human Signs indicate human-to-human contact. Yes, Aries is a Violent Sign, but it is not an Human Sign, and that violence or malice would be directed at you by other means -- like attacking your wealth.

How do you determine "collision?"

Running to catch up to something is not the same thing as you running after something, and then that something turns around and starts running straight at you.

I need to spend more time with this one. I haven't figured out Mars yet in this chart, but I cannot help but think that Mars on the SR ASC isn't cool. The nature of Mars is to sever and separate...

1st House, beginnings for you in this year; something new.


I can't tell if he's a functional malefic in this chart, but at the very least he is doing something that he wouldn't normally do, doing something inappropriate.

Jupiter and Venus can never be truly Malefic. They can be less Benefic, and perhaps less Benefic in a Malefic manner, but nothing like Saturn or Mars could ever be.

Venus applies to Jupiter by trine, and Venus is able to help Jupiter, but before that aspect perfects the Moon will interfere.

Temporarily.

Getting back to the question of separating aspects, the Mars/Jupiter opposition is separating by about 3*. This should make the effect of the opposition still active, but color the interpretation. The quote above says that Jupiter is no longer paying attention to Mars. Which is seriously bad news because Mars is on the ASC and making his presence known. So whatever it is about Mars that Jupiter isn't paying attention to is going to bite him in the ***.

[QUOTE=tsmall;484837]How to narrow it down? This is where I just started thinking. Because Mars is L12 and L4 (houses, not signs) and the exaltation ruler of 2. Ok, what houses from his position in Gemini can Jupiter witness? Or more appropriately, what are the houses Jupiter cannot witness? 12 and 2. So secret or hidden enemies and the second house of income.

Or large animals. Jupiter cannot really control or influence what happens in the Houses he cannot aspect by Sign.

So....if I would be you, I'd be looking for a Transfer of Light.

I know most think of that in terms of Electional/Horary, but it applies to Natal (long before Horary).

There are a few Horary Questions which rest entirely on whether or not the Ascendant Ruler aspects the Ascendant, or aspects the Ascending Sign. This aspect must be by Degree usually, but in certain Questions (usually related to health or death) it can be by Sign....it's enough for another Planet to transfer light from the Querent to the Ascending Sign.

A faster Planet that has separated from Jupiter and transfers light to either the 12th or the 2nd Signs/Houses would be enough.

And yes -- if there is a Transfer -- that suggests something or someone is helping you.

I know Bonatti and Lily say it requires some form of Reception, and I do agree, I just think Reception is related to willingness. A Planet that transfers light is going to transfer light no matter what (because that is a natural function of physics), but there is a difference between a reluctant helper, and one who is willing to go overboard, so the greater the level of cooperation, the better it will work.

Since the Signs/Houses and other Chart Points do not cast light or cast rays, they cannot be collected, nor could they ever transfer light themselves.

And here again is where Sect comes in. How competent is the Planet to perform the task it has been given?

DreamingTheSeas
07-10-2013, 07:40 AM
Please allow me a question for me :

What about when in profection 5th house (sign) becomes 1st house involves Aries Venus, Saturn, NorthNode and 8th house becomes 4th house, but no planets there? Also 4th becomes 12th house (sign)
Also in Solar return chart 8th house is in Aries and i find Uranus there. And in 7th Mars, Venus.

My husband had an heart surgery, a triple bypass and a valve plastic 2 months ago. Suddenly and unexpectedly, but it went well and its ok now.

Am i done with these return and profection or i have to be ready with other(s) incidents?

p.s. If anyone think that my post is inappropriate here i could move it to another thread.

tsmall
07-11-2013, 12:38 AM
Bob, I hope you (and others) realize that your posts are solid gold. If, in between changing a diaper, planning an invasion, butchering a hog, conning a ship, designing a building, writing a sonnet, balancing accounts, building a wall, setting a bone, comforting the dying, taking orders, giving orders, cooperating, acting alone, solving equations, analyzing a new problem, pitching manure, programing a computer, cooking a tasty meal, fighting efficiently and dying gallantly you ever decide to write a book you'll make a fortune. You have a gift for explaning things.

"If you can't explain it to a six year old you don't understand it yourself." Since I have about as many questions as a six year old (and have some experience of answering six-year-old questions, and how important they are to the questioner if not to the one being asked) I do very, very much appreciate your answering.


My brain is also scrambeldy eggs at this moment. I'm going to sit with this a bit and let all the lightbulbs finish coming on since currently the connections are firing faster than the fireworks at the Hatch Shell on the 4th of July.

Thanks. Sincerely.

tamara

tsmall
07-14-2013, 01:23 AM
So....if I would be you, I'd be looking for a Transfer of Light.

I've spent a bit reading in IA (Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology) about Transfer and Reflection. Here is another instance of a distinction, at least in how the descriptions are worded, that in order for there to be either transfer or reflection the planet that wants to reach something it cannot otherwise needs to be applying to another planet. Is there ever an occasion when a heavier planet applies to a lighter one? For example, does Saturn ever apply to anybody?

Moving away from my random musings, there is a hint that in the cases of collection transfer and reflecting, applying = ability to regard.

A faster Planet that has separated from Jupiter and transfers light to either the 12th or the 2nd Signs/Houses would be enough.

Clearly, Venus is the planet for the job. Once the Moon crosses over Jupiter, Venus will move to perfect the trine, and reflect Jupiter's rays into Capricorn.

And yes -- if there is a Transfer -- that suggests something or someone is helping you.

In this case, pretty nearly everyone is helping us. However, we have already established that Mercury, as Year Ruler, is running straight into legal trouble because Jupiter was sleeping at the wheel (in detriment and backpeddling.) Venus is posited in the 9th house and 10th sign, dignified by being in domicile, rising ahead of the Sun in a day chart (which I believe is better than coming behind.) In bright degree and a degree increasing in fortune (I especially like that part) and she receives Jupiter by term--some of the older texts seem to place as much importance on the bound ruler as the do the domicile ruler.

I know Bonatti and Lily say it requires some form of Reception, and I do agree, I just think Reception is related to willingness. A Planet that transfers light is going to transfer light no matter what (because that is a natural function of physics), but there is a difference between a reluctant helper, and one who is willing to go overboard, so the greater the level of cooperation, the better it will work.

I am so happy to hear that this is your opinion. I've been having an on and off discussion with a friend about reception. The gist of it is that Bonatti required reception for perfection of the question, which makes a heck of a lot of sense when you consider that the "perfection" would be for the question to be answered in a way that is favorable to the querent. The point though is that even without reception something is going to happen.

One thing Dykes did bring up about reflection vs. transfer or collection is that with transfer and collection, the reflecting planet is bringing together two other planets (or in this case a planet and a house) that are able to regard each other by sign but cannot bring an aspect to perfection without help. In that case the intermediary is aware of it's role in bringing together two things that want to connect.

With reflection, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the outcome, because the reflecting planet is working with two planets (or in this case a planet and a sign) that are in aversion. I wonder if this is where reception will help.

As far as competence, do we need to look at where Venus will be in relation to the house cusps in order to determine ability/energy? In the SR chart Venus is cadent, for all that she's in a pivot.

On a happier/much relieving note, we finally received our Fish and Game permits today in the mail. Would that be an indication of Venus being able to act? What is...interesting about those permits is that they are dated for June 26th, and about the time they would have been approved Jupiter had moved into Cancer and Mercury stationed rx. It took two and a half weeks for us to get them.

BobZemco
07-21-2013, 05:03 AM
Is there ever an occasion when a heavier planet applies to a lighter one? For example, does Saturn ever apply to anybody?

Those are good questions.

I've never really seen anything in any of the texts that clarify that. I have seen charts where you get the impression that a Rx Planet can apply to, or seek connection with another Planet.

When you see an Rx Planet and a Direct Planet moving to aspect or join, the interpretation given in the charts is that this is a very powerful, forceful event....like a collision.

So, is a Rx Planet actually seeking an application? I'm inclined to say "yes" even though the texts don't actually make that clear, but the charts you'll run across do.

Moving away from my random musings, there is a hint that in the cases of collection transfer and reflecting, applying = ability to regard.

Well, about Rx Planets applying, and about the Transfer/Collection of Light, as well as other possibilities with aspects, if you can get hold of Dariot's works, that would be good.

Dariot is noted mostly for his decumbiture charts, and in those charts, the Transfer of Light is crucial to the survival of the Querent. That's also true for Electional/Horary questions related to the 6th or 8th Houses, especially for surgeries.

I would never undergo a surgery if the 1st House Ruler did not aspect the Ascending Sign --- by Sign, not Degree, meaning the 1st House Ruler could not be in the 2nd, 6th, 8th or 12th Houses/Signs --- unless there was a Transfer of Light to the Ascending Sign.

He has a few charts where Moon or Primary Significator are coming into contact with an Rx Planet and the results were not good or disastrous.

Clearly, Venus is the planet for the job. Once the Moon crosses over Jupiter, Venus will move to perfect the trine, and reflect Jupiter's rays into Capricorn.

Well, there you go.

--some of the older texts seem to place as much importance on the bound ruler as the do the domicile ruler.

Ah, you noticed that as well.

Basic chart delineation is what it is, but if you want to pick up on some of the subtle nuances, then Bound Rulers are where it's at.

I am so happy to hear that this is your opinion. I've been having an on and off discussion with a friend about reception. The gist of it is that Bonatti required reception for perfection of the question, which makes a heck of a lot of sense when you consider that the "perfection" would be for the question to be answered in a way that is favorable to the querent. The point though is that even without reception something is going to happen.

Well, it's a matter of physics. A Planet has no control over whether or not it transfers light, or it collects light. The only real issue here is how effectively that Planet will function.

A Transfer of Light is like you asking or telling someone to take your car up and put gasoline in it, because you have an important appointment 3 hours from now that you have to prepare.

So, you've issued your command or request, what happens now?

2 hours later....your car hasn't moved and the person you asked is sitting on the couch playing video games.

2 hours later...your car still has not returned.

An hour later, your car is back, fully fueled.

90 minutes later, your car is back, fully fueled, and has been washed.

90 minutes later, your car is back, fully fueled, has been washed, and the interior has been vacuumed and cleaned.

90 minutes later, your car is back, fully fueled, has been washed, the interior has been vacuumed and cleaned, and someone thoughtfully parked the car in the shade, so you don't have to get into a car that's scorching hot.

Those things are a matter of Sect status, Reception and condition of the Planet that's transferring light (and the same for a Planet that is collecting light).

One thing Dykes did bring up about reflection vs. transfer or collection is that with transfer and collection, the reflecting planet is bringing together two other planets (or in this case a planet and a house) that are able to regard each other by sign but cannot bring an aspect to perfection without help. In that case the intermediary is aware of it's role in bringing together two things that want to connect.

Okay, that makes sense to me. I'd forgotten about the reflection thing.

Anyway, remember that Reception is all about granting permission or authority.

You can't stop a collection, since it's a naturally occurring physical phenomenon and the Reception would only indicate your knowledge (since we know we're talking about people here).

Suppose you had a feud with another family member. The collector Planet is going to mediate, whether you like it or not. So, your Significator receiving the collector Planet only means that you approve of it -- express consent or implied consent.

There are many situations in which consent is not required, and that would be especially true where you have a transfer.

Certain professionals -- lawyers, doctors and others -- are bound by a code of ethics, if not by regulations and laws, so Reception is really useless, since you don't have much control over what they do.

Same for things.

Suppose you have the charts of a person in the National Guard, and a Planet is transferring light from the Primary Significator to the Significator of Travel which happens to be the 11th House and the transfer Planet is in the 7th. That person is going to be called to active duty, and sent overseas. Reception really has nothing to do with it.

I've seen those things in charts, which is why I can't buy into "there has to be Reception." Reception is always better (there are actually times when you do not want Reception, or if there is Reception, the Primary Significator should not be doing the receiving).

Like I said, where you have transfers/collections, Reception seems to be more a matter of consent, willingness and the spirit of cooperation and none of that directly impacts the outcome.

With reflection, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the outcome, because the reflecting planet is working with two planets (or in this case a planet and a sign) that are in aversion. I wonder if this is where reception will help.

Bounds would help.

Where you have Chart Points like the Ascendant, Midheaven, pre-Natal Moon, and your Lots, their degree ties them to a Bound.

Where you have a Sign, look at the degree --- the reflecting/transferring Planet will have to arrive at a certain degree to make the reflection/transfer. Suppose Venus needed to be at 12 Virgo in order to reflect/transfer light from Jupiter, then the rays of Venus are hitting 12 Sagittarius.

As far as competence, do we need to look at where Venus will be in relation to the house cusps in order to determine ability/energy? In the SR chart Venus is cadent, for all that she's in a pivot.

Then I guess the circumstances will change to favor you.

On a happier/much relieving note, we finally received our Fish and Game permits today in the mail. Would that be an indication of Venus being able to act? What is...interesting about those permits is that they are dated for June 26th, and about the time they would have been approved Jupiter had moved into Cancer and Mercury stationed rx. It took two and a half weeks for us to get them.

Really? That's [U]very interesting.

tsmall
08-23-2013, 01:21 AM
Here's a fun SR chart (not.) We can file this one under why stuff (like sect and dignity/debility and rulership) matters.

This is an 8th house profection year, which means that Taurus comes to the ASC and Venus is year ruler. Note to add that looking at what has happened (once we've spun around the chart a couple of times) in previous profection years doesn't help. Because the last time the 8th came to the ASC this native had one of the best years of her life. This time? Not so much. Why?

Alrighty then, let's start with Venus, who is the domicile ruler of the radical ASC. As year ruler, she is completely hosed. At first glance it looks bad, and on second look it's even worse. In the 21st degree of Leo in the 6th house, in the SR chart ruling the 3rd and 8th, and the exaltation ruler of the SR ASC. She is er...cadent in the 6th house (for those of you paying attention, the 6th house rules small animals, like the kind one would expect to find in a travelling zoo) in masculine sign and quadrant, and she's in a feminine degree (yay!) but that degree is empty. She is completely peregrine, unconfigured to and so unable to see the SR ASC, did I mention cadent? and rules the 3rd and 8th signs in the SR chart. Oh, and as a bonus, she is applying to a square with a completely out of sect Mars (by sign gender, degree, quadrant and hemisphere.) Just about the only saving grace in this square is that Venus receives Mars by triplicity.


Mars in the SR chart rules the 2nd and 9th, and Venus found herself about half way through the year in a court battle to protect her 2nd house income, which came through the 8th (remember the profection house/sign) because of her 6th house of small animals. Venus being cadent meant there wasn't a whole heck of a lot she could do but watch as it happened. There was some support, and Venus could at least see into the 8th and 3rd houses, but...ouch.

Next up would be Jupiter, since Jupiter is the SR ASC ruler. :pinched: Jupiter isn't much better off, in Gemini (detriment) and in pitted degree. Ruling the SR ASC, and SR MC, in the 4th house...and in welled degree.

This was a tough year. A forced job change because the company worked for was bought out and closed the division the native worked for (announced prior to the SR,) which was like watching a loved one die slowly (it took 7 months to complete going out of business) and then the native did have a minimal increase in income (yay Saturn) but had to make huge sacrifices to get it which included a big change in lifestyle that affected every area of her life, including her home and children for working full instead of part time at another division of the purchasing company. Not long after, the native got to watch as everything her partner/husband had worked for ten years to build was stolen away and then found herself in the court battle of her life.

All in all, this native is really, really looking forward to her next solar year. If for no reason than that this one can't end soon enough.

tsmall
08-23-2013, 01:34 AM
And here is the reason I'm kind of pumped (though looking at the 6th house makes me want to go to the doctor, something I've not done in many years) about the next SR chart. Same nativity as the last, but check Mercury.

My question about this, for those who may be able to answer, is...When a planet is activated via any time lord method, do we activate the planets nataly configured with it? As in (crosses fingers) is Jupiter active in the chart?

9th house profection, with Mercury as both the Year ruler and the SR ruler. And Mercury seems very well able to hold the fort.

It's late, but any thoughts would be happily appreciated. Because it's looking pretty good for the home team.

serafin5
08-31-2013, 06:47 PM
The key is organization. I would like to help people with that, but being disorganized myself, that's probably not a good idea. I used to go from House-to-House, but that got to be tedious, so I started focusing only on activated Planets, and that works a lot better (for me).



Okay.

The ruler of the Sign in which the Profectional Ascendant falls is activated and becomes the Year Ruler. Any Planets in that Sign are also activated, because they are disposited (ruled) by the Year Ruler.

I know most profect in 30 increments, and that's fine, but I profect by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours. For example, if the Ascendant is 15 Sagittarius 45' then using 30 it will fall at 15 Capricorn 45' but profecting by Oblique Ascension using Diurnal Hours, it falls at 7 Capricorn 56'.

Continuing, 4 Aquarius 01' then 6 Pisces 35' all the way until you get to 15 Gemini 45' (7th House).

As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference, but occasionally you'll find charts where the Profected Ascendant will fall exactly on a Natal Planet or a Lot...and that's really intense, just as a Solar Return Planet falling exactly on the Profected Ascendant.

Anyway, one other thing to clarify is that it is the Sign that is activated, not the House.

The Profected Ascendant has activated Capricorn, which means the House holding the Sign of Capricorn in your Solar Return is activated, and as you can see, it is Capricorn that sits on your 2nd House/Sign.

Any Planets falling in the Sign will play a key role.

I can't remember who, but someone says that Planets transiting the Sign of the Profected Ascendant are important, but I cannot trace its precursor. No else says it (Zael and ibn Ezra certainly don't), and in practice, I haven't seen a thing out of it, but if people want to explore that, go right ahead.



Yes, I would consider the Exalted Sign for the Year Ruler.

Note that in the SR Chart, Saturn in Scorpio is in aversion to Libra, but he can see Capricorn and Aquarius.

If a Planet is not in its own Sign, then is important to be connected by sextile, square, trine or opposition. That allows the Sign Ruler to manage the affairs in that House, even though he isn't physically there. It's like you can leave home, but still be connected: you can call or e-mail, and a family member there, or another you put in charge (the house-sitter, baby-sitter, dog-sitter) can take your instructions and carry them out.

If you have no connection to your home, then you really aren't in control.



I'm not sure that's it. Over time, Signs and Houses kind of got to be used interchangeably, even though they aren't necessarily the same thing. For Solar Returns, it's actually the Sign that comes to the Ascendant, not the House.

So, the Profected Asendant activates that Sign in your Natal Chart, plus your Solar Return Chart, and then the Sign that comes to your Solar Return Ascendant becomes activated in your both your Natal and Profectional Charts. And of course the Ascendant Sign in your Natal Chart is always activated in the Solar Return Chart.



Uh, if I understand the question correctly, you're asking: "Now that I've identified the Rulers and Signs involved for the year, what the hell do I do now?"



Before you do that, you have figure out exactly what's going on.

You probably already evaluated the condition of the Planets in the SR Chart, or at least the key players, and compared them to your Natal Chart.

A few pointers.

Mercury is not On-Station.

Not yet, anyway, and that is a big key in delineating the chart.

Mercury just crossed her own North Node so she's increasing in light and that's a +. She is within 12 of the Head and that's a +, so is being in her own Face, and being in the Bound of Jupiter and being received by Jupiter and being in a Bright Degree and being looked at by Venus and in aversion to Saturn. But Mercury is Slow and that's not good, and being Occidental Mercury is Female -- but in a Masculine Sign, House and Degree, and being Nocturnal (since she is Occidental) she is Above Earth....and so Out-of-Sect and in her own Detriment.

I should point out that some say the Head is in Fall in Sagittarius (and Tail in Fall in Gemini) but I'm not really sure about that and tend to ignore, since there's conflicting views on it.

Overall, Mercury is like a 2.5 on a Scale of 1 to 5.

At first glance, it appears that Mercury is applying to the sextile of Venus, but that isn't happening. Mercury did sextile Venus while Mercury was in Scorpio and Venus in Virgo, and due to Mercury's slowing, they stayed in the exact minute for nearly a week before Venus separated from Mercury.

Very, very important....it is Venus who separated from Mercury and Mercury is not applying to Venus.

Mercury cannot apply to Moon, because Moon is the faster of the two, so no aspect there. The next aspect is an opposition with Jupiter. Here's a case where a Planet goes Retrograde, then Direct, and still manages to perfect this opposition (with Mutual Reception) in Human Signs (Gemini plus the first 10 of Sagittarius).

I just can't help but notice the 10th Sign is Virgo -- Mercury -- ruling your fame and public standing, and the 9th House totally engulfs the 10th Sign.

And then the opposition is to Retrograde Jupiter. I was just commenting on another thread that is not an aspect, that is a collision and the signification of a Planet colliding with a Retrograde Planet is that you are being driven/forced/compelled to do something that you'd rather not do. That also fits well once again with the Out-of-Sect Mercury who is not Malefic (doing something it would not normally do otherwise)...and we saw the same thing in the Horary Chart.

Mercury never perfects the conjunction with Mars, because Mars changes Signs....but that is actually a good thing given that Mars rules Scorpio and Saturn is Retrograde there (meaning Saturn is weak even though he Joys in the 12th).

Anyway, with respect to health, Venus rules Taurus and Venus is in Libra in a Bright Degree, in a Degree of Increasing Fortune, sextile the Ascending Sign, trine the Ascendant Ruler and in aversion to Saturn.

No problems there (unless there's something freaky in the Natal Chart).

I mention that because sometimes it is easier to rule out what is not to be, and whatever is not ruled out is what it is.

I'll comment some more later, but right now I have to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly (because, you know, "specialization is for insects"...that's what Heinlein says).

****! You're a busy man :biggrin: LOL!

S5