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boom
07-03-2013, 03:05 AM
Hello :) I wasn't sure if I was to place this in a read my chart section or the traditional thread. If it's in the wrong place, I really do apologize.

I just wanted to ask, are combustions in natal charts considered terrible? I know that when we see a combustion in an horary chart, a big red flag is raised and is considered one of the most undesirable aspects possible.

I have all my personal planets combust (and cadent!) and my moon is in a pitted degree.

How have you witnessed combust planets in natal charts?

Thanks!

Culpeper
07-03-2013, 03:51 AM
Don't panic over combustion. In horary combustion can burn up significators and so give a no answer to a question. However, in natal astrology it seems to do other things. It may strengthen planets but add difficulties and annoyances. You may be very capable at things indicated by the combust planets but have trouble being noticed. Planets are invisible when combust. I have worked on many celebrity charts with combust planets so the condition does not prevent people from being successful. Here is a thread with some more information plus the special condition of cazimi. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65306

dr. farr
07-03-2013, 04:04 AM
Following the oldtime Ottoman horary concepts (which here on AW I have referred to as "Ankara" horary), when a primary significator is "combust", the SUN ITSELF is substituted for that significator, ie the Sun BECOMES the significator (having "absorbed" the planet, so to speak) Then, using the Sun as significator (either querent or quesited significator depending upon which significator planet is combust) the chart is delineated in the usual way.
Note, though, that this outlook is NOT shared, by the generally accepted standard horary doctrines in the West over the past 800 years...However, since this outlook dates from an early time (12th century) it qualifies for inclusion in discussions here in the AW Traditional Forum (my outlook regarding the overall issue of the concept of combustion per se, however, is at variance with Traditional and therefore I cannot elaborate upon it here in the Traditional Forum)

tsmall
07-03-2013, 05:51 AM
Following the oldtime Ottoman horary concepts (which here on AW I have referred to as "Ankara" horary), when a primary significator is "combust", the SUN ITSELF is substituted for that significator, ie the Sun BECOMES the significator (having "absorbed" the planet, so to speak) Then, using the Sun as significator (either querent or quesited significator depending upon which significator planet is combust) the chart is delineated in the usual way.
Note, though, that this outlook is NOT shared, by the generally accepted standard horary doctrines in the West over the past 800 years...However, since this outlook dates from an early time (12th century) it qualifies for inclusion in discussions here in the AW Traditional Forum (my outlook regarding the overall issue of the concept of combustion per se, however, is at variance with Traditional and therefore I cannot elaborate upon it here in the Traditional Forum)

Um, dr. farr, this is AW and not...some other places. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you want to talk about something that was a widely held belief prior to say...Anthony Louis, or Lilly and Bonatti on the traditional forum here...you can just go ahead and do it. Point of fact is that though we do have a traditional forum (something for which I am heartily thankful daily) we have no written definition of what exactly that means here.

tsmall
07-03-2013, 06:29 AM
Hello :) I wasn't sure if I was to place this in a read my chart section or the traditional thread. If it's in the wrong place, I really do apologize.

I just wanted to ask, are combustions in natal charts considered terrible? I know that when we see a combustion in an horary chart, a big red flag is raised and is considered one of the most undesirable aspects possible.

I have all my personal planets combust (and cadent!) and my moon is in a pitted degree.

How have you witnessed combust planets in natal charts?

Thanks!

This is going to be another case where the whole chart is necessary to answer the question.

Why? Define "personal planets." This is a modern concept, since traditionally all the planets (clarify, the seven classical planets) are personal. Why? Because they all reflect light and cast rays. Meaning they all "personally" affect the chart/native. They also all rule houses/signs, and what they do will affect the life of the native.

Something else to bear in mind is that each planet will react to combustion differently, and this is written in the tradition. Take Mercury as an example. That poor guy is combust at least 25% of the time (12 weeks out of the year) due to his constant proximity to the Sun. Planets are always going to act according to their nature (unless they are out of sect, and then they can do things that may seem to "go against" their nature, but in ways that also conform...and I know, that made no sense what so ever.)

My Moon is also in a pitted degree. What does that mean to you?

I have Mercury combust and retrograde in the 1st (his joy) ruling my 12th and 9th. L12 makes him an accidental malefic. One thing I have read about Mercury here is that the native may have problmes with, of all things, deafness. I'm not deaf (nor am I slow of speach, nor do I have a problem communicating) but...I had hearing troubles when I was young. For all of the 3rd grade, I couldn't hear.

Mercury ruling my 9th? I'm a pretty smart cookie. Did I graduate from University? Not on your life. Why? Because as the ruler of Gemini, my 9th, Mercury has no other support. There is no exaltation ruler, and let's just say...Mercury in my chart got distracted. By other stuff. Ideas like combustion and retrograde...they do not affect the planet's abilities to express their nature. What they do affect is the planet's abilities to rule their own houses.

Most important regarding combustion...is it an applying aspect, or separating? This above all will color the judgement.

Konrad
07-03-2013, 07:33 AM
Combustion is a funny one. In fact, the very question of whether or not a planet is combust has been misunderstood as far back as the Hellenistic times. A planet is combust when it is not visible at any time throughout the day or night, but this 15 degrees on the ecliptic assigned to this concept is not an accurate measurement of whether or not this is true. It still seems strange for me to hear someone say that their Mercury is making an appearance when he is not visible in the sky, and sometimes Venus doesn't go invisible until 2 degrees from the Sun, how can we then say she is combust within 8 degrees if we can go out and look at her shining in the evening sky? Personally, I use Rumen Kolev's program Porhyirus Magus for this sort of thing, but before that I used this program (http://www.alcyone.de/planetary_lunar_and_stellar_visibility.html) to see what was up - both agree almost exactly with each other. If you begin to use this, you may be surprised by some of the things you see (Mars being invisible for a year at a time at certain points in his cycle, for one thing).

As for the effects, I toiled with this for a long time. As you say, we are told that combustion is devestating, but then when you realise that Mercury is only visible in around 1 in every 7 births, and that we are all (most of us) fully functioning people, it can't be that bad! Combustion is a problem though no doubt: the Moon being invisible is one testimony of one having no children. Venus being invisible is one testimony of having either poor or no relationships, and Jupiter and Saturn invisible both are a testimony of losing one's inheritance but note I am saying one testimony; like every other thing, this is never to be taken as a digital yes/no answer when considering its effects. If the planet who is combust is in some important role like being the Kurios or lord of the year via profections, the person will feel and be overpowered by external circumstances, this does not equate to lack of success however, but it is certainly a trying life/time. I find combustion makes the planets more extreme in their significations - Mercury will be more capricious in his handling of the native's life; Mars more destructive; Saturn more constrictive - but the position in the sky of planet is still important as is its relationship to its dispositors.

There are some things that make combustion easier to bear, however. If a planet has just gone combust i.e. it became invisible at most 7 days from the birth, then this planet is powerful for a time but its effects tend to fade as time moves on. Mercury disappearing for example, with all other things being equal, will show someone quick-witted and dexterous in youth but someone whose mind slows down as they age. I consider a planet making its appearance to be in its most powerful phase and this is nothing new. Also a planet who is so close to the Sun can be considerd cazimi and I have found this to be most definitely true, with less than half a degree being the limit I have found through experience. Cazimi planets are very powerful, but be aware that for the malefics, this can be powerfully bad.

dr. farr
07-03-2013, 07:57 AM
I too have (often) found that planets in Solar conjunction (ie "combust" in Traditional and Vedic terms) makes the planet more extreme, intense in their influence, sometimes constructively, other times disruptively: for example, I have noticed several cases where "combust Mars" (for me, "Sun conjunct Mars") has expressed very intense martial qualities.
Thanks Konrad for your insightful comments!

Moog
07-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Combustion is a funny one. In fact, the very question of whether or not a planet is combust has been misunderstood as far back as the Hellenistic times. A planet is combust when it is not visible at any time throughout the day or night, but this 15 degrees on the ecliptic assigned to this concept is not an accurate measurement of whether or not this is true.

I've also been looking at planetary visibility in regard to astrology.

The software I use, Kala, has programming that deals with and reports motional quality, which amounts to the same thing afaic, as it relates to solar phase.

Vedic chesta bala is interesting, because it basically (my understanding of it) considers the whole retrograde/combustion thing into two ends of a spectrum; you're no longer simply calling a planet combust, under the beams or retrograde, you have a calculation with a numerical figure that can represent more subtle states, states relating to a planet's relationship to the Sun, wherever it is in the chart.

Bob recently mentioned some stuff about more complicated naunces to basic states (in regards to the retrogression part) in western astrology, but I've not studied that yet. I'm more familiar with the Vedic thing.

As for the effects, I toiled with this for a long time. As you say, we are told that combustion is devestating, but then when you realise that Mercury is only visible in around 1 in every 7 births, and that we are all (most of us) fully functioning people, it can't be that bad! Combustion is a problem though no doubt: the Moon being invisible is one testimony of one having no children. Venus being invisible is one testimony of having either poor or no relationships, and Jupiter and Saturn invisible both are a testimony of losing one's inheritance but note I am saying one testimony; like every other thing, this is never to be taken as a digital yes/no answer when considering its effects.

I believe that combust planets find it much harder to manifest their remit, as natural signifiers, and house lords.

The way I currently see it is, it's not devastating in the same sense that a powerful and debilitated malefic is. It's more like, nothing much happens, because the power of the combust planet to manifest is weak or nonexistent. The things signified have no or little presence in this world; invisible.

So you can have a sort of tragically empty life in some regards. But you experience lacks, as opposed to an abundance of truly horrific life experiences.

Like you mention Venus combust; many people would think that a life with no major romantic relationships is a tragic thing.

boom
07-03-2013, 05:52 PM
Thank you all for the replies. I've recieved a lot of mixed response (some very positive and others super negative) regarding my chart. I had a professional astrology reading done, and the news I heard was pretty terrible.

For my chart:

Mercury combust: I'm not smart. I was a terrible student for much of my life until highschool when I graduated at the top of my class and went to a prestigious university. Then I was dumb and decided not to take my studies seriously and dropped out. Now I work a dead end job. In addition, Mercury is the ruler of my 7th house and I've only had 2 sort of boyfriend my entire life.

Venus combust: I'm not beautiful and I've never really had a boyfriend. I become very jealous very easily. I really do want to fall in love though.

Mars combust: I have no backbone and have difficulty asserting myself.

Plus all this in the 6th house (cadent), doesn't really fare well for me.

It can be pretty daunting, but y'know, it's my life and my choices.

Konrad
07-03-2013, 07:13 PM
Mercury combust: I'm not smart. I was a terrible student for much of my life until highschool when I graduated at the top of my class and went to a prestigious university. Then I was dumb and decided not to take my studies seriously and dropped out. Now I work a dead end job.

This in itself is not a big issue as Mercury is invisible at the time of most people's births, and besides, intelligence is relative and contextual - some like to think of themselves as possessing some wit and eloquence but if you asked them to fix their flat tyre, they may have no idea!

As I use the Babylonian fixed zodiac, the exact positions of your planets are not known to me, especially Venus and Mercury, but your professed timidity would most likely be from the Moon's close influence of the ASC degree while having dignity there rather than because of Mars being invisible.

To be sure, you do have a materially difficult chart but this modern notion that to be content, happy and successful you need to be perceived as having some social standing and wealth is a false one. I see one of the jobs of an astrologer to be to help others find their raison d'être whatever that may be.

Lion o ness
07-03-2013, 08:43 PM
@boom..

Our charts are very similar I also have 4 Leo planets in h6. I'm also a Pisces asc.
My moon/ merc Rx are combust.

I wasn't successfully in school either, I didn't have any patience for school, sit there are learn was torture for me.

I'm a hands on learner, meaning I have to actually do it to learn it...

As I got older (I'm 40) I began to teach my self, what I felt was necessary.
I taught myself excel spread sheets and formulas.
I'm learning astrology through my own personal experiences.

Basically I try to never stop learning something.
But I learn, what I need and what will make a difference with in me.

I fell into my job, it was a bottom position and I worked hard, continue to learn, and move forward.
Within 5 years I was promoted 3x into management.

So you do have it in u..

Even though my moon is combust, and cancer rules my h5. I did have kids. I have 2.
I think in a way people don't think I am a "freely" type person.. I don't easily express my feelings, maybe cuz of the combustion, but they are there, very deeply.. I just keep them private.
I think so people think I'm cold, possibly even heartless, but honestly the people that think that, are the ones that haven't taken the time to get to know me.
It's just not an easy expression for me.
I actually use astrology forums to have a place to freely express my feelings.


We both also have easy aspects from the stellium to Saturn/Uranus.
I think this makes me very stable mentally and responsible, yet being able to accept non traditions as the norm.

Having a packed h6, can make you stuck in routine, that's still my problem to this day..
It's like torture to get out...
If you can find away from the routine.
That's one if my biggest regrets.
I've wasted part of my life stuck in this daily routine.
Honestly I've done the exact same thing, every day for over 20 yrs with just a few exceptions here and there..

Clinton Soule
07-03-2013, 11:58 PM
Culpeper stated:

Don't panic over combustion. In horary combustion can burn up significators and so give a no answer to a question. However, in natal astrology it seems to do other things. It may strengthen planets but add difficulties and annoyances. You may be very capable at things indicated by the combust planets but have trouble being noticed. Planets are invisible when combust. I have worked on many celebrity charts with combust planets so the condition does not prevent people from being successful.

I added the UNDERLINE for emphasis!

This has been the consensus of many Modernes, yet William F. Lilly puts that Combustion factor '...as the worst that can happen to a planet in natal astrology...' as well.

One can be successful, but it is as when Anthony Louis stated in his first book as a Moderne, that the effects are '...burnt up, overdone, beyond roasted, been in the barbeque of life too long..', that describes it very well.

Take the horoscope of Arnold Swarzenegger, who has the lord of his 7th Falcifer :saturn:combust in :leo:, as he has :cancer: Ascending with that hard :capricorn: 7H. Note his marriage failure and a bad relationship with a past girl friend, the first noted woman bodybuilder, Kellie Everts, who became famous as a 'stripper for God':happy::surprised::happy:. And according to some books written about Arnold he was sexually active with another past girl friend while in courtship with Maria.

http://www.vegaattractions.com/celebrity/stars/arnolds.html

And note how in California after being Govenor, his nick name was the Govenator, he lost his great popularity in his public(7th) image.

2)I have an astrologer I'm doing a some work for who has Hermes:mercury::conjunct::sun:, Mercury ruling the 12th. Well the family knows as I do that the native is losing it mentally yet she has thought for years the Sun made their mind strong by it's cjt to Mercury.

3)Also on another Forum a great horary artist has Mercury combust, and despite many other horary artists telling of a certain transit that he was under, Uranus opposition the lord of his natal 3rd which brought about an unsuspecting auto accident where he found himself in the sherriff's front yard, and others urged that he should utilize outers in transit studies, he sticks to being an Ultra-Trad regardless of the overwheliming evidence of the effects of Outers.

There are a multitude of examples!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Genesis 1:14 (ESV)
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years

boom
08-16-2013, 02:43 AM
Reading about combustion always makes me :( When I first started reading about astrology online, I remember being so excited by the concept of conjunction with the Sun. But then I read about combustion in traditional astrology, it's like :crying:

I've also read that combustion can allow that particular planet to shine brightly, however it would lose rulership over it's house. So say, if Mercury (which represents my 7th house of marriage) is combust, I might come across as intelligent (but I'm really not), but I'd never get married. But then, what happens to the house? I mean, it's not active? or...

dr. farr
08-16-2013, 04:46 AM
The Sun becomes defacto ruler of the house of the combusted planet (according to Paracelsus)-however I cannot go further into this type of discussion because of the limitations of this Traditionalist section of AW...for further discussion, if your interested, please post on another AW forum.

JUPITERASC
08-17-2013, 12:13 AM
The Sun becomes defacto ruler of the house of the combusted planet (according to Paracelsus)-however I cannot go further into this type of discussion because of the limitations of this Traditionalist section of AW...for further discussion, if your interested, please post on another AW forum.
Although you do not wish to go further with this type of discussion regarding Paracelsus doctrine dr. farr, nevertheless a reference to the book outlining /detailing Paracelsus method would be of interest for those who are interested to research this matter. Many thanks :smile:

poyi
08-17-2013, 02:00 AM
I too would like to know the reference dr. Farr referring to here. Since my Mercury is within the orb of combustion. While mercury is the ruler of AC and MC. I would like to know the impacts if Sun really took over and became the ruler of those 2 axis instead.

I can surely related to both experience of difficulty regarding to the Mercury while also benefits from it as if Mercury was intensified.

dr. farr
08-17-2013, 04:44 AM
Reference: Paracelsus' "Philosophia Magna, tractus aliquot", Basel, 1567

More accessible books contain many of Paracelsus' astrological concepts:
-Hartmann's "Paraceslsus: Life and Teachings"
-Norbert's "Parcelsus" Selected Writings"
-Waite's "Hermetic and Alchemical Writings of Paracelsus" (2 volumes)
...and several other more or less generally available studies...

The hermetico-alchemical perspective regarding combustion was (is) that the Sun absorbs the planet (not that the planet is destroyed in its influence) and the combusted planet's astrological influence is melded with the Solar influence, with the Solar influence predominating EXCEPT when cazimi occurs (in which case the planet's specific + influence is greatly magnified) The combusted planet is "purged" of its "dross and weakness" (Paracelsus) during combustion and emerges "purified"; aspects to the planet in combustion are delineated as if they are aspects to the Sun...the Harranian Thabit ibn Qurra (10th century, Harran) had similar ideas regarding combustion (his "Ghayat el kawakeb")

tsmall
08-17-2013, 04:49 AM
Before we all flip out, there actually was a way to save from combustion that predates much of what is considered horrible in today's modern view of traditional astrology.

If a planet was "in it's own chariot" as in posited in any of it's familiar places (mostly read as domicile and exaltation, though I would go so far as to include bound) then it were as if there was an umbrella protecting in from the effects of combustion.

The key to remember (why so many forget this is completely beyond me) is that if you are trying to delineate the psychological manifestations of a combust planet and relate it to combustion you will fall off the path.

Combustion traditionally has to do with how the planet will be able to act as the ruler of it's domiciled and exalted signs, and was one of many, many considerations. Especially since traditioanlly some planets bear combustion, or being under the beams, better than others.

It is sooo important to understand the terms before we try to conflate them. Saves so much heartache and confusion in the end, no matter what type of astrology one wishes to use.

dr. farr
08-17-2013, 05:08 AM
Personally I believe the chariot mechanism was proposed (in very early Hellenist times) to account for the fact that a planet would often "work" (ie that the planet would still have influence) when combust (and-theoretically-supposed to be "destroyed" by the Sun) Note too that no such exception or "protection" as the chariot mechanism, is to be found in Vedic astrology (there is no saving from combustion in the Vedic tradition-however I will note that, except for shadbala strength/weakness evaluation, Vedic astrology does not disregardthe effects of the combusted planets, just treats them as, essentially, very weak influences or-with some Vedic traditions-as "functional malefics")

JUPITERASC
08-17-2013, 11:43 AM
Before we all flip out, there actually was a way to save from combustion that predates much of what is considered horrible in today's modern view of traditional astrology.

If a planet was "in it's own chariot" as in posited in any of it's familiar places (mostly read as domicile and exaltation, though I would go so far as to include bound) then it were as if there was an umbrella protecting in from the effects of combustion.

The key to remember (why so many forget this is completely beyond me) is that if you are trying to delineate the psychological manifestations of a combust planet and relate it to combustion you will fall off the path.

Combustion traditionally has to do with how the planet will be able to act as the ruler of it's domiciled and exalted signs, and was one of many, many considerations. Especially since traditioanlly some planets bear combustion, or being under the beams, better than others.

It is sooo important to understand the terms before we try to conflate them. Saves so much heartache and confusion in the end, no matter what type of astrology one wishes to use.
That stars are said to be in their own chariots when they are in their own domicile or exaltation or confines. For, such a star is mighty even if it is ending its course by arriving under the beams of Helios; and if they are arising or pivotal or look upon Selene, they show the nativity to be authoritative :smile: Antiochus Summary – TARES Vol 2 Schmidt trans. http://www.projecthindsight.com/products/translations.html


'...An outstanding feature that has emerged from the ongoing excavation of astrological heritage is the enhanced awareness of essential planetary dignity. The coherence and relevance of this artful system is represented in the ancient teaching tool of the Thema Mundi, where the soli-lunar relationship and sect appear fundamental to the Art’s symbolic and philosophical depths. Essential Dignity is a bedrock principle for both method and delineation, bringing a cohesive force to the birthchart. Without a good comprehension of this doctrine, astrological ‘language’ cannot be fluently and creatively negotiated with any real substantiation.....'


'….Essential Dignity relates to a celestial body in a zodiac sign/part of a zodiac sign, which is natural or familiar territory. Each ‘sign’ (modern term) is actually the ‘house’ - more appropriately the ‘celestial house’ of a planet/light. Meaning, function and capacity of every planet is conditioned by these various placements/lack thereof. Dignity (and debility) judges the degree of any planet’s potential for pure (or compromised) archetypal expression. Essential Dignity is to astrology what “times tables” are to arithmetic - basic grammar for every astrologer - which needs to become second nature for delineation to be fluent, organic, uniquely meaningful.....'

JUPITERASC
08-17-2013, 11:46 AM
Each planet is also said to be in its proper chariot, or throne, or otherwise triumphantly situated, when it holds familiarity with the place that it actually occupies by two, or more, of the prescribed modes of connection: for when it is so circumstanced, its influence and energy are especially augmented by the familiarity it thus holds with the sign which encompasses it :smile: Ptolemy – Tetrabiblos Book 1 Ch XXVI Ashmand trans.


'….Throughout astrological history the term ‘throne’ is another traditional word used for the chariot concept. Various levels of dignity (domicile, exaltation, triplicity, bounds, and face), or ‘modes of connection’, allow for complex associations, permutations, algorithms which enrich the whole astrological palette in an extraordinary way. A warp/weft of interwoven relatedness allows for finely calibrated delineation to be individualised to every particular context – central to all this is the keynote principle of Astrological Reception. One celestial body, in another’s zodiacal image, will be ‘received’ by the lord of the sign, via domicile, exaltation, triplicity, bounds, or face – the exact degree and aspect depending...'


'….The Essential Dignity system and Reception are also used in techniques at other sophisticated levels – e.g. using bounds for medical/physical delineation, or using triplicities for predictive work, or calculating the planet(s) strongest at a particular degree. The essential conditions of both dignity and debility are baselines which further call the challenge of the true ‘art’ of ‘astrological judgment’ to the forefront – where all has to be carefully weighed, with a technical and creative ‘call’ being made by the practitioner....'

BobZemco
08-18-2013, 12:49 AM
Reading about combustion always makes me :( When I first started reading about astrology online, I remember being so excited by the concept of conjunction with the Sun. But then I read about combustion in traditional astrology, it's like :crying:

Might I suggest you stop perusing garbage web-sites.

Y'all make things much harder than it must be.

What gives Planets greater power?

Uh, okay, let's start simple....in Horary, when is Moon stronger?

Alright then, let's start really simple.

What does Sun signify? Well, among things (at least conceptually), strength, energy, vitality and such.

What is the source of that? The Sun's light.

So, then, Moon is stronger or more powerful.......when Increasing in Light.

Moon is weaker or less powerful when Decreasing in Light. The older terms are Waning (Decreasing) and Waxing (Increasing).

And that is based on...yes, synodic cycles. So as Moon elongates or moves away from Sun, Moon Increases in Light and becomes stronger, up until the Preventional Point....the Moon's opposition to Sun which gives us the Full Moon. From that point on, Moon is moving toward the Conjunctional...a conjunction with Sun (and a New Moon or possibly even an Eclipse).

Planets do the same. As Planets move away from Sun, they Increase in Light and become stronger, but as Planets move toward Sun, the Decrease in Light and become weaker.

And why is that?

What do [some of] the Planets do?

Well, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn hurl Rays and cast Light (Uranus, Neptun and Pluto do not).

While the Planets actually hurl Rays, they don't really cast Light, rather they reflect light from Sun.

And how do they reflect light from Sun? That depends on how close they are to Sun....and the farther away they are, the more light they absorb from Sun to reflect light back at other Planets.

Everyone see how that works?

It's hard to reflect light when you're over-shadowed by Sun.

From this Reality™ and matter of real physical science, we take our significations for the meaning of Combustion, which are what? Well, mainly we use them in Electional, Horary and Mundane/Mundane Event, but they hold the same meanings in Natal (and also Profections and Revolutions).

A Combust Significator in any chart is what? In fear; powerless; or helpless.

How do we make those distinctions? Is the Significator in fear? Or powerless? Or simultaneously in fear and powerless? We go back to our days as a Novice and we look at things we should have learned before ever looking at charts, like Reception, Dignity and Planetary Friends & Enemies.

Saturn and Sun are mortal enemies. They hate each other. When Saturn is Combust, that is sheer fear and terror....you can smell it, probably since Saturn wet his pants.

When Saturn is Combust in Leo, Saturn is cowering in the corner, helpless and filled with fear.

If Saturn signifies an animal, then you can say the same, and if it represents inanimate objects, whatever it is not going to function.

What about people? Sun as Primary, a Planet is Combust, then that person is hiding something from you. Take the signification from the House/Signs the Combust Planet rules. Aside from that, if the Primary is Combust, it could be this person is weak, meaning if the significator represents a friend, that friend probably won't be there for you, or it could be a person who has a physical disability, or an illness, or other problems.

Let's move on.

I've also read that combustion can allow that particular planet to shine brightly, however it would lose rulership over it's house.

No, that's wrong. Sun does not take over rulership, rather Sun becomes the focal point, at least for the Sign/House it is in.

So say, if Mercury (which represents my 7th house of marriage) is combust, I might come across as intelligent (but I'm really not), but I'd never get married. But then, what happens to the house? I mean, it's not active? or...

No, that's all wrong.

I'm sorry you got some bad intell.

There are a number of approaches to examine intellect, but none of them are mutually exclusive to Mercury.

The minimalist approach looks at the Ascendant Ruler and Mercury, and Planets in aspect. Others look at Moon, Mercury and the Ascendant Ruler (and aspected Planets). There are at least four Lots to consult as well. The point being that if in fact Mercury is Combust, that's only a teeny tiny part of the puzzle and not an 18"x24" glossy photograph.

So you say Mercury rules your 7th and is Combust, but you don't say where Mercury is.

You don't say who your Ascendant Ruler is, either.

Who wants to practice Astrology?

Isn't the 7th House Lawsuits and Conflicts? And you're whining about a Combust Mercury? You ought to be singing the Happy Happy Joy Joy Song. Of course, the 7th is also partners, so it could be that your partners are weak, meaning you end up doing all the work while your partners are useless. Then again, since the 7th signifies marital and such relationships, it might be that your women are weak, or weak as in ill...as in sickly. But if Virgo is the 7th, then Gemini is the 4th, so another possibility -- since Sun is one of the significators of father in a Day Chart -- might be that your father rose above his father --your maternal grandfather --- in terms of wealth or property or power, or as head of the family (if you have one of those kinds of families).

If Gemini is the 7th and Virgo the 10th, then a Combust Sun could indicate problems with your career -- perhaps way too much emphasis on career, or not, and that would be more likely the case if your MC fell in the Leo 9th House.

You might do better if you spent less time worrying about a fried brain and more time devoted to understanding the Signs, Houses and Planets as significators.

rox
08-18-2013, 02:44 AM
I have a combust Venus at 9° in Gemini, Sun at 14° in the same, 11 H. Lily says this is really a combustion degree, as it is within the 8°. :annoyed: Since Venus is moving faster than the Sun, could we draw any significance from the fact that Venus is "running away" from the Sun (and combustion)? Theoretically, it should not matter much in a NC, since it imprints the nativity at the moment of birth, period.

Paul_
08-19-2013, 10:06 AM
I just saw this thread, that's weird cos I was discussing combustion with someone by PM and I was putting forth a similar idea that Dr Farr is here.

I have a combust Venus at 9° in Gemini, Sun at 14° in the same, 11 H. Lily says this is really a combustion degree, as it is within the 8°. :annoyed: Since Venus is moving faster than the Sun, could we draw any significance from the fact that Venus is "running away" from the Sun (and combustion)? Theoretically, it should not matter much in a NC, since it imprints the nativity at the moment of birth, period.

The very opposite is happening. If Venus is at 9 degrees and the Sun at 14, then Venus is applying to the Sun and therefore applying further into combustion.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 02:43 PM
How about all these theories get tested in practice? Here's a chart of a native with combust venus (think that's even a partil there, although not cazimi by strict rules), in detriment, plus mercury sunbeamed and retro. Both in first house, (Aries). Mercury ruler 7th house, Venus secondary ruler of the same.

Hints: The native has had over 50 sexual partners, some which she formed relationships with (lasting from a day to 6 years); 3 official marriages ending in turrbulent divorces and custody battles; plus 3 common marriages, also ending pretty violently. From these she has 4 children, all from different fathers. There would have been more, but native experienced 6 miscarriages as well. First child was kidnapped by father and never retrieved. People familiar with native report experiencing her as volatile, dominant, extremely intelligent, yet at the same time seemingly aloof, cold, reserved and often surprisingly naive - apart from her children who are very attached to her and to whom she is authentically devoted, not sparing positive emotion and support. Subjectively, the native claims to be very giving to partners which they do not reciprocate but abuse, generally leeching off her. Finally, the native has no income and lives almost exclusively on financial aid from her father who is a high rank diplomat (exalted Sun? Venus rules second house).

Obviously a combust Venus does not signify no love or marriage, even when involved in the 7th house. But it does seem to destine every relationship to ultimate failure? Similarly, a retro sunbeamed Mercury does not seem to diminish intelligence.

Now I would love to hear your opinions on the intricacies of this chart.

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zyy0zt.gif

poyi
12-02-2013, 03:05 PM
Other than what you had mentioned.

Direct straight forward condition of Saturn at AC opposes DC, Pluto Rx, Uranus Rx & Mars Rx at DC (backward and forward over her lifetime). Mars and Pluto both rules 8th house while in Virgo, their ruler Mercury Rx in Aries mutual reception with Mars also backward forward. 7th house ruler Mercury Rx backward forward semi sextile Saturn & AC.

Can check the timing of Progressed Mercury direct, station, retrograde and how it aspect in perfected degrees to the major 3 planets near the 7th house to see if relevant to those events.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 03:24 PM
Yes, that is all there, but I fail to see your point when you only list what is obvious from the chart. Can you please elaborate?

poyi
12-02-2013, 03:58 PM
Yes, that is all there, but I fail to see your point when you only list what is obvious from the chart. Can you please elaborate?

I already pointed out what those 50 sexual partner and relationship from 1 day to 6 years could be indicated, that would be the motions of both the Mercury in Progressions to the natal planets in 7th house as well as the movements of those three retrogrades planets in 7th house.

Venus being in Aries combusted by Sun, the final dispositor is Mars & Mercury mutual reception, as well as the link to 8th house other people's money. Her own earning ability 2nd house is through other people Mars and Pluto at 7th house and 8th house. These key rulers as well as the mutual reception rule Mars in Virgo are all on Western side. In my opinion, the blessing must come from other people and through other people's resource, at other's people's mercy. If the 2nd house final dispositor was at eastern side then the power of accumulating wealth is at native her own hands. Her career MC, the final dispositor is combusted Venus in fall, Mars also Rx.

Aries sign planets, Mercury Rx, Sun and Venus are all in intercepted either great talent or great blockage. You can also see that 1st Mercury (ruler of the 7th) bi-quintile 6th Mars (ruler of the 8th and intercepted Aries) and bi-quintile Neptune, 6th Mars quintile 8th Neptune (modern ruler of the ascendant). Anyhow for a 10 mins reading. That's all. As I can't keep my interest on this person's chart for long.

Konrad
12-02-2013, 04:25 PM
Now I would love to hear your opinions on the intricacies of this chart

I'll take a stab at this. Just to be clear, I use the Babylonian Fixed zodiac.

Venus is indeed invisible and will point to problems in the love-life, I think it is Mars though who is showing the destructiveness of these relationships and the willingness with which she has sexual relations. Mars is in his 2nd station and as a result will approach the native with extra-vigour and intemperance. While ruling Venus, he also rules the Lot of Marriage (assuming the accuracy of the birth-time, it is conjoined Venus to around a degree) and due to his northerly latitude he is actually setting astronomically. I have observed people with setting planets having real problems in the asepcts of life these planets manage, and Mars is almost solely responsible for how the native's relationships will fall out with his rulership of Venus and the Marriage Lot. With Saturn rising, and chart almuten by my reckoning, the native has had the life I would expect.

Herein lies the difficulty of narrowing down the effects of combustion: there is always more than one factor. I am beginning to think that it is entirely dependant on the planet's relation to the Sun and/or its domicile lord. I have seen too much evidence to suggest the ancients have erred in proclaiming that an invisible planet is destroyed completely.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 05:41 PM
Isn't this a topic in the traditional astrology forum? So shouldn't we be ignoring the existence of the outers (admittedly it is sometimes hard)? And especially the non-Ptolomaic aspects? Also according to trad. Mars is not in 6th but 7th house.

No doubt Mars is of particular influence in this chart considering his position and relations, but the main topic being combustion, I would be interested do you think Mars completely takes over and Venus is, in a manner of speaking annihilated, or absorbed by the Sun as someone said, or should it be considered so debilitated that all under its rule turns to ashes? If the latter was the case, how would it be possible for this person to have children at all, as the Moon is in Venus domicile, rules the 5th house, so under the circumstances wouldn't it be expected that a combust dispositor would give no children at all, or at best that there would be something wrong with them? Which in the real life of this individual is not the case.

In other words would it be more accurate to assume that some other planet took over and is surrogating in place of Venus (Mars? The Sun?), or do we conclude combustion isn't that horrid after all and the planet still functions only with great difficulty, or a specific "twist" to its conduct? Or am I missing the whole picture altogether?

Konrad
12-02-2013, 06:09 PM
No doubt Mars is of particular influence in this chart considering his position and relations, but the main topic being combustion, I would be interested do you think Mars completely takes over and Venus is, in a manner of speaking annihilated, or absorbed by the Sun as someone said, or should it be considered so debilitated that all under its rule turns to ashes? If the latter was the case, how would it be possible for this person to have children at all, as the Moon is in Venus domicile, rules the 5th house, so under the circumstances wouldn't it be expected that a combust dispositor would give no children at all, or at best that there would be something wrong with them? Which in the real life of this individual is not the case.

Well firstly, I wouldn't see Venus as ruling the Moon nor would I look to the 5th sign to see the native's fecundity. Primarily I would look to Jupiter and his condition as well as the Moon's. Jupiter will produce children for this native as he is in a pivotal house from the ASC and is partile the Lot of Children, but him being managed completely by Venus as well as her ruling the Lot of Children probably shows the trouble the native has had with them. If you know the time-frame her child was kidnapped, I could check who was doing what at that time.

In other words would it be more accurate to assume that some other planet took over and is surrogating in place of Venus (Mars? The Sun?), or do we conclude combustion isn't that horrid after all and the planet still functions only with great difficulty, or a specific "twist" to its conduct? Or am I missing the whole picture altogether?

Honestly, I can't be sure of the definitive answer. I have seen invisible planets behaving erratically as this Venus is, but I have also seen invisible planets performing fine. I sense it is vital that the invisible planet's dispositor is aspecting it and in a decent position itself.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 06:58 PM
The child was kidnapped in August/September 1994. It is dubious whether the father intended to kidnap it from the start, or came upon the idea later after the child was already with him for a while - don't have data for him but he is a somewhat prominent, well connected individual from what I am told. (This makes me think of the Sun, as male influence and power, overwhelming Venus again?)

Btw, this chart is blowing my mind, can't make heads or tails of it. It's somehow so circular! Mars, Venus, Mercury...like these three are chasing each others tail. Then if you dig deeper, you find Saturn and Jupiter creeping in from under the boards. lol

JUPITERASC
12-02-2013, 07:17 PM
Isn't this a topic in the traditional astrology forum? So shouldn't we be ignoring the existence of the outers (admittedly it is sometimes hard)? And especially the non-Ptolomaic aspects? Also according to trad. Mars is not in 6th but 7th house.
Exactly - note the heading at the top of the page :smile:

QUOTE

'...Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)...'

Clinton Soule
12-03-2013, 01:05 AM
Lilly states about combustion:

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html (http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html)

Christian Astrology, pages 298 ff. ... In every Question where Fortunes are Significators, hope well; but in Infortunes, .... fo the infortunes doth much afflict her, but none so powerfull as her Combustion

23. Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Comust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signifie nothing of the matter, no good, nor is be able to bring anything to perfection.

35. In all Questions, know there's not so great an affliction to the Moon, as when she is in Conjunction with the SUN; the ill aspects fo the infortunes doth much afflict her, but none so powerfull as her Combustion.

It's not just horary that combust is such a hard factor as one finds out the more they study Lilly!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html)

http://wroskopos.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/combustion/ (http://wroskopos.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/combustion/)

Note Arnold Swartznegger's natal horoscope where the lord of the 7th is combust:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/248844/thumbs/r-ARNOLD-large570.jpg




http://thestarryeye.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341cdd0d53ef01543268ad6c970c-500wi

Not only were there problems in his marriage with Maria, Arnold was once heavily involved with the first competitive woman bodybuilder Kellie Everts, a stripper whom Arnold caught in an affair with his best friend Franco Columbu!

http://nursemyra.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/arnoldkelliebreasts.jpg

There are many examples throughout history of how natal horoscopes manifested with combust planets!.

socrates
12-24-2013, 03:48 PM
As Andre Barbault has noticed combustion is good.Armistices and peace treaties take place at Sun Júpiter or Sun Venus conjunctions.Mars Sun conjunctions initiate conflict

http://www.andrebarbault.com/combustion.htm

http://www.andrebarbault.com/occultations_astromond.htm

poyi
12-24-2013, 03:55 PM
Personally I stand at the middle ground. Combustion does not completely removed the abilities of the planet. But there will still be malefic issues surrounding that planet. Demi Moore is a good example to study. She has both the positive manifestation of those planets yet you can also see some very malefic issues. You may think other configuration could also cause her issues. Her chart is interesting and many event charts and relationship date were recorded.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Moore,_Demi

dr. farr
12-25-2013, 03:27 AM
I look at combustion more as absorption of the planetary influences by the Sun, rather than as destruction of those influences; at worst I simply use the Sun (and its meanings) in the place of the combusted planet, such as relative to aspects, etc...

Konrad
12-26-2013, 03:06 PM
I look at combustion more as absorption of the planetary influences by the Sun, rather than as destruction of those influences; at worst I simply use the Sun (and its meanings) in the place of the combusted planet, such as relative to aspects, etc...

How would you approach delineating Mercury then considering he is invisible around 85% of the time? Also, what if Mercury and the Sun are in conjoining signs, what then?

dr. farr
12-27-2013, 04:49 AM
My orb of combustion (absorption) is variable-for Mercury it extends only to 3 degrees (same for Moon and for Venus): beyond that orb (beyond 3 degrees) I do not consider Mercury as having been absorbed by the Sun; under 3 degrees, I use Sun indications mostly, modified by Mercury indications mixed in, for such a delineation (I do not use only the Sun and totally exclude the Mercurial in Mercury's combustion with the Sun) IN HORARY, if Mercury is under 3 degrees from the Sun, I use only the SUN as significator in that horary.
Conjoining signs make no difference (for me in this situation): if Mercury is combust but next to the Sun in the next sign, I use Sun with Mercurial modifications IN MERCURY'S SIGN, for the delineation of Mercury, while retaining the Sun in its own sign, for the delineation of the Sun.

Konrad
12-27-2013, 10:33 AM
Ok, thanks.

Do you see any disntinction between combustion and being under the beams? If so, would you use the standardised 15 - 17.5 degree limit, or the actual astronomical visibility?

dr. farr
12-28-2013, 05:30 AM
No-I have never used this consideration (but remember that I am an eclectic and, in addition to Hellenist and Traditionalist concepts and methods I have also been influenced by early Modernist astrology as well) For orbs of combustion (absorption) I have settled upon these:
Moon, Venus, Mercury: 3 degrees
Saturn: 4 degrees
Jupiter: 5 degrees
Mars: 6 degrees
(Clearly my "orbs" are related to elemental considerations) However the concept of variable orbs for combustion goes back to Antiochus of Athens, and were mentioned by Maternus (and referenced by Abu Mashar)-by the way, this concept of variable orbs seems to be in conflict with the "visbility" explanation often given to account for the doctrine of combustion; also the "shielded in their chariot" considerations of Valens and other Hellenists, regarding combustion, seems not to accord with the "visibility" explanation-and of course cazimi (highest accidental dignty given to this state by many of the oldtime authorities) goes directly against any "visibility" explanation.

These thoughts, coupled with alchemico-astrological and early Modernist influences upon my understanding of combustion, are responsible for my eclectic perspective regarding this subject, which has worked pretty well for me in actual delineative and predictive applications, although of course I do not advocate anyone to accept or follow this point of view.

Konrad
12-28-2013, 05:15 PM
No-I have never used this consideration (but remember that I am an eclectic and, in addition to Hellenist and Traditionalist concepts and methods I have also been influenced by early Modernist astrology as well) For orbs of combustion (absorption) I have settled upon these:
Moon, Venus, Mercury: 3 degrees
Saturn: 4 degrees
Jupiter: 5 degrees
Mars: 6 degrees
(Clearly my "orbs" are related to elemental considerations) However the concept of variable orbs for combustion goes back to Antiochus of Athens, and were mentioned by Maternus (and referenced by Abu Mashar)-by the way, this concept of variable orbs seems to be in conflict with the "visbility" explanation often given to account for the doctrine of combustion; also the "shielded in their chariot" considerations of Valens and other Hellenists, regarding combustion, seems not to accord with the "visibility" explanation-and of course cazimi (highest accidental dignty given to this state by many of the oldtime authorities) goes directly against any "visibility" explanation.

These thoughts, coupled with alchemico-astrological and early Modernist influences upon my understanding of combustion, are responsible for my eclectic perspective regarding this subject, which has worked pretty well for me in actual delineative and predictive applications, although of course I do not advocate anyone to accept or follow this point of view.

Well, considering where the doctrine of planetary visibility came from, the orbs of combustion should be considered as crude approximations used due to the lack of an ability to calculate actual visibility phases. I believe the Arabs were trying to solve this issue but they lacked the necessary tools to succeed. Personally, it would seem odd to wax lyrical about a heliacal rising Jupiter who was in fact still under the beams or to talk about a combust Venus who is quite clearly seen as the Sun sets. However, this was not my real reason for questioning you. I am prepared to accept that something has been lost in between the Mesopotamians and the Hellenes in describing the results of invisible planets - it seems obvious that literal reading of the sources will lead to error. Clearly the Hellenes were considering something else as well as visibility due to the point you raise about a planet being in its chariot, and while I still think it is to do with the planet's relationship to its domicile lord (hence a planet in its own domicile being shaded from the Sun - the Sun is charged with manifesting that planet's significations and the planet must play host for the Sun's), I am open to other options. I presume that since you advocate this approach and that you are a practical astrologer, you must have some good examples of this phenomena in actual charts. Could you share some of them?

heidy26
12-28-2016, 01:14 PM
What about the Lord of the 1st and the 10th being combust ?
If the lord of the ASC and the 10th is in his triplicity, but combust by L12 and running away from combustion [retro], but still under the 3 deg combustion?

As the AS is the life and the 10th is the status...based on what I've read, the person should be dumb, doubtful, powerless, with weak health, have an invisible reputation, deaf, etc. From the above list, the only thing that makes sense is the doubts the person has over own judgement and intelligence.
How can this develop further ?

conspiracy theorist
12-29-2016, 02:36 AM
What about the Lord of the 1st and the 10th being combust ?
If the lord of the ASC and the 10th is in his triplicity, but combust by L12 and running away from combustion [retro], but still under the 3 deg combustion?

As the AS is the life and the 10th is the status...based on what I've read, the person should be dumb, doubtful, powerless, with weak health, have an invisible reputation, deaf, etc. From the above list, the only thing that makes sense is the doubts the person has over own judgement and intelligence.
How can this develop further ?


Here is the chart of Nikola Tesla.

http://i.imgur.com/5F3fB6o.gif

http://www.biography.com/people/nikola-tesla-9504443

Should be noted that his birth data has a B rating and it's rounded.