PDA

View Full Version : Calculating temperament in a natal chart


zona501
04-24-2013, 09:55 AM
Hello, everyone.

I would like to ask you to share the method(s) you prefer for calculating temperament or the ones you are aware of.

A method I know is as follows. We look at the nature of the Ascendant, its ruler, aspects to the Ascendant and its ruler, phase of the Moon, season of birth and Lord of the Geniture. We add the qualities together and we end up with a predominant temperament and a secondary one, so to speak. We keep the qualities dry/moist and hot/cold. As a result, it may turn out a person is predominantly cold and dry, for example, with a tendency to accumulate heat which would mean he is predominantly melancholic but with a choleric streak.

It's also said planets carry different importance relative to the temperament of the person. In this way, Mars and the Sun would carry extra importance for a choleric person, the Moon and Venus for a phlegmatic person, Saturn and Mercury for a melancholic person and Jupiter for a sanguine person. I suppose the progressions, directions and transits of those planets in particular would be more important for the native.

What's your fav method that you would recommend to the rest?

Thank you.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-24-2013, 06:20 PM
I usually follow Lilly's (which is basically what you describe), but if I'm pressed for time or not feeling up to keeping up with so many points I'll use Greenbaum's.

Hers is quite different in that she adds up whole temperaments instead of the individual qualities, and she assigns particular placements two points at a time. Birth season, Ascendant Sign, and Moon Sign all get two points in their temperamental quality, while Ascendant ruler, Ascendant Almuten, Moon phase, and the Sign of the Moon's dispositor get one. More often than not I've found Greenbaum's method in line with Lilly's, but if they disagree I tend to go with Lilly's if only because it's more in-depth.

zona501
04-24-2013, 07:53 PM
I usually follow Lilly's (which is basically what you describe), but if I'm pressed for time or not feeling up to keeping up with so many points I'll use Greenbaum's.

Hers is quite different in that she adds up whole temperaments instead of the individual qualities, and she assigns particular placements two points at a time. Birth season, Ascendant Sign, and Moon Sign all get two points in their temperamental quality, while Ascendant ruler, Ascendant Almuten, Moon phase, and the Sign of the Moon's dispositor get one. More often than not I've found Greenbaum's method in line with Lilly's, but if they disagree I tend to go with Lilly's if only because it's more in-depth.

Thank you very much. :)

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-24-2013, 08:26 PM
No problem, did you have anything else related to this you wanted to ask?

zona501
04-24-2013, 08:58 PM
No problem, did you have anything else related to this you wanted to ask?

Thank you for your question. I wondered if you would subscribe to the idea that certain planets carry extra importance depending on the person's temperament while the rest can almost safely be discarded. I suppose the author of the idea meant that the latter would be less important in transit and progressions.

Thank you.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-24-2013, 09:38 PM
I've never heard of this idea before, but I can sort of understand the logic. Ultimately I would have to say it's probably not a good theory.

What it sounds like, to me anyway, is that it's trying to mimic time lords. They operate in a similar way. Particular planets are activated for a particular amount of time, and transits to and from those planets are said to be important or manifest something in someone's life. This means that you can disregard most transits and progressions unless they involve a planet that is activated.

I don't think the rulers of temperaments would be extra important just for being of a similar temperament to the native, mostly because I can think of better reasons to prioritize more meaningful planets at any given time.

Do you have a link or source for this idea that I can explore?

zona501
04-24-2013, 10:24 PM
I've never heard of this idea before, but I can sort of understand the logic. Ultimately I would have to say it's probably not a good theory.

What it sounds like, to me anyway, is that it's trying to mimic time lords. They operate in a similar way. Particular planets are activated for a particular amount of time, and transits to and from those planets are said to be important or manifest something in someone's life. This means that you can disregard most transits and progressions unless they involve a planet that is activated.

I don't think the rulers of temperaments would be extra important just for being of a similar temperament to the native, mostly because I can think of better reasons to prioritize more meaningful planets at any given time.

Do you have a link or source for this idea that I can explore?

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I cannot post a link to the source as it was said in what would probably constitute a private conversation.

Going a little offtopic, would you please kindly elaborate on the idea of time lords and how to determine the current one at a specific point in time if not too bothersome?

Thank you.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-24-2013, 10:49 PM
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I cannot post a link to the source as it was said in what would probably constitute a private conversation.

Going a little offtopic, would you please kindly elaborate on the idea of time lords and how to determine the current one at a specific point in time if not too bothersome?

Thank you.

Okay, that's fair.

The most recent post on my blog is actually about time lords and how this recent one has effected me, if you care to take a look at it. It's a bit more anecdotal, but I do describe some time lord techniques and give links for further reading about them.

Aside from the self-promotion there (and if you don't want to go read a blog post that's more anecdotal than instructional), the time lord technique that I use the most is profections which is basically that every year a different house in the nativity will become activated, so planets in that house and especially the ruler of that house becomes important if it is being aspected by a transiting planet or if it is transiting a position in the natal chart itself.

You start with the First house at birth and move along the wheel every birthday. So, at age 1, it's the Second house; age 2 it's the third, etc. So, for example I'm 23 and in my 12th house profection (as everyone who is 23 will be), the Lord of my Twelfth house is Saturn. So Saturn is a time lord for me and is activated. This means the big mess that Saturn is making in Scorpio is going to be important for me since he's activated.

Make sense?

zona501
04-25-2013, 10:45 AM
Okay, that's fair.

The most recent post on my blog is actually about time lords and how this recent one has effected me, if you care to take a look at it. It's a bit more anecdotal, but I do describe some time lord techniques and give links for further reading about them.

Aside from the self-promotion there (and if you don't want to go read a blog post that's more anecdotal than instructional), the time lord technique that I use the most is profections which is basically that every year a different house in the nativity will become activated, so planets in that house and especially the ruler of that house becomes important if it is being aspected by a transiting planet or if it is transiting a position in the natal chart itself.

You start with the First house at birth and move along the wheel every birthday. So, at age 1, it's the Second house; age 2 it's the third, etc. So, for example I'm 23 and in my 12th house profection (as everyone who is 23 will be), the Lord of my Twelfth house is Saturn. So Saturn is a time lord for me and is activated. This means the big mess that Saturn is making in Scorpio is going to be important for me since he's activated.

Make sense?

Oh, yes, it makes perfect sense, thanks very much. :) And self-promotion is ok, I guess it becomes bothersome to repeat the same things over and over again so why not post a link to a place where you've explained that before? But even the short explanation here is revealing enough, thanks once again. :)

Edit: The anecdote is interesting and I personally believe that's the better way to teach people: stories are remembered better than dry theory. I hope Saturn doesn't cause anymore trouble for you until you get to your 1st house profection. On the plus side, let's hope the projects that failed couldn't have been handled a lot better than what you did and room has been cleared for something better in your life to appear. :)

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Oh, yes, it makes perfect sense, thanks very much. :) And self-promotion is ok, I guess it becomes bothersome to repeat the same things over and over again so why not post a link to a place where you've explained that before? But even the short explanation here is revealing enough, thanks once again. :)

Edit: The anecdote is interesting and I personally believe that's the better way to teach people: stories are remembered better than dry theory. I hope Saturn doesn't cause anymore trouble for you until you get to your 1st house profection. On the plus side, let's hope the projects that failed couldn't have been handled a lot better than what you did and room has been cleared for something better in your life to appear. :)

Thanks! I appreciate that! :biggrin:

I've been trying to get more into firdaria and ZR, but they tend to be a whole new level of complication that they're difficult to follow. :/

So, anymore temperament questions? Maybe we can swing ourselves back around to the original topic. You should pick up Dorian Greenbaum's book Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.

zona501
04-25-2013, 08:04 PM
So, anymore temperament questions? Maybe we can swing ourselves back around to the original topic. You should pick up Dorian Greenbaum's book Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.


I've read her take on temperament is somewhat novel and not entirely in line with tradition (although maybe that's what you would expect from a new book on the matter). I suppose people should try to balance their temperaments: fill in the missing humours somehow and search for ways to decrease the ones they have in excess. Is that so? :)

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-25-2013, 09:24 PM
Greenbaum's take is an attempt to rectify slightly different temperament calculations throughout the tradition.

zona501
04-25-2013, 10:21 PM
Greenbaum's take is an attempt to rectify slightly different temperament calculations throughout the tradition.

Ah, I see. :)