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meg96
01-27-2013, 01:43 PM
I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??

Moog
01-27-2013, 04:22 PM
Good question.

The fall of a planet is the point opposite it's exaltation.

Generally speaking you can think of them both as 'this planet is in a sucky place that it doesn't like, and will not operate well from'.

You'd need to check everything else to know precisely what it means.

In vedic astrology the 'detriments' aren't used as such, however, a planet may be undignified in those detriment signs by dint of emnity between the planets. i.e. Sun in Aquarius, Jupiter in Virgo etc.

JUPITERASC
01-27-2013, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??
QUOTE:


Detriment and Fall

As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence;

wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall. For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery,

whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery.



source: (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676) :smile:

dr. farr
01-28-2013, 03:19 AM
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)

dranzer93
03-28-2013, 02:43 AM
I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??

Detriment is uncomfortable and misplaced, resulting into a weakened energy. This does not necessarily mean the signs strength itself is zapped, it just means it is not comfortable expressing and is not free to express fully, creating a negative effect.

Fall is the most difficult, negative and diminished placement. My example of a fallen planet - Think of fall as a Square aspect and Dignity (Ruler) as a Trine aspect. If you know what Square and Trine do then for the most part you will understand that it is in same context here.

Mercury dignifies Gemini, Gemini is communicative, and full of expression. Just like the meaning of Mercury itself, this is why it is ruled here - Mercury is in fall when in Pisces because of the lack of confidence and unrealistic fantasy-based type expression it has.

Moon rules Cancer, Cancer is emotional, responsive and nurturing and Moon nurtures earth. So the moons signature sign is Cancer - Moon is in its fall in Scorpio. Scorpio is the darkest most powerful sign, it is the poker face of the Zodiac. Gravekeeping it's extremely intense emotions, this is not the way the Moon wants to express itself. Scorpio is also secretive, intense and all or nothing towards others. Cancer wants to nurture towards others. Scorpio moon is the most difficult moon placement seeing life though a dark and negative lens.

My example of the relations between these 2 signs and the moon would be Cancer as the spoilt, loved and nurtured child and Scorpio as the neglected black sheep.

But for the signs that are not listed in either dignity, exaltation, detriment or fall are signs in peregrine. This means that according to the horoscope they can be weak or strong. If the Sun is in Pisces then I would say that the sun will perform especially poor because of Pisces vulnerable and weak nature as a sign itself. Pisces is far if not the furthest from being a leader and in my personal opinion it is as if the Sun in Pisces is just off of being in fall or in detriment. Not to mention its mutability which is the other end of the spectrum of Sun ruled Leo of Fixed Quality.

It just made sense to assume this, I look at the relationships between each planet and sign, and what each planet and sign actually do. With this I just adjust to the horoscope and then I start getting flesh out of astrology instead of limited, new age astrology.

The Sun performs poorly in all of the Signs (Pisces especially) except for the Fire Signs. He only has the dignity of Face in 10 degrees of the other signs and will be peregrine throughout the other 20.

I have:
Sun - Pisces (Peregrine)
Moon - Scorpio (Fallen)
Mercury - Pisces (Fallen)
Venus - Aries (Detriment)
Mars - Cancer (Fallen)
North Node - Sagittarius (Fallen)
South Node - Gemini (Fallen)

There is no harmony here, so judging by the difficulty I have I can confidently say that both Detriment and Fallen predominance will create a more difficult nature in their specific fallen areas.

Hopefully that answered your question

Link.

Kaiousei no Senshi
03-28-2013, 03:16 AM
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.

Dranzer's analysis is pretty spot on. Planets in detriment are disorganized, are said to be fighting with themselves, and tend to take on a corrupted influence which tends to make them negative. Planets in fall tend to show worry and distress, and are said to have a numbing or weakening influence which sort of makes them less able to perform.

Moog
03-28-2013, 03:32 AM
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)

Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.

dr. farr
03-28-2013, 03:57 AM
Remember too that prior to the time of Abu Mashar (in the West), the ancients did not have the concept of (essential) "detriment", for them it was only domicile, exaltation and fall; same as has continued in Vedic astrology up to the present time...

Kaiousei no Senshi
03-28-2013, 04:38 AM
Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.

Lilly's ideas of exaltation and fall are no different than any other medieval author. The various dignities and debilities, as well as their effects, were fairly standardized by around the turn of the first millennium CE. It's mostly going to depend on what specific tradition you follow, but the medieval tradition is pretty straightforward on this topic.

dr. farr
03-28-2013, 04:44 AM
True enough-Bonatti, Ibn Ezra, al-Biruni, et al, had the same things to say about this matter (just that I personally can't stand Lilly's writing!! and attitude!!!)

Claire19
03-28-2013, 05:24 AM
If you go online and key a few words you will find all the definitions you want. I tend not to stress those terms but take each planet and its aspects on their own merits.

serafin5
03-28-2013, 05:36 AM
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)

I have always thought this also that "fall" was definately the more debilitated between the two (detriment and fall). Of course this was before I had heard of "Lilly". Does any Traditional Astrologers know the answer for sure?

Thanks!!
S5

Moog
03-28-2013, 01:42 PM
Lilly's ideas of exaltation and fall are no different than any other medieval author. The various dignities and debilities, as well as their effects, were fairly standardized by around the turn of the first millennium CE. It's mostly going to depend on what specific tradition you follow, but the medieval tradition is pretty straightforward on this topic.

In that case, I still don't like those ideas, but let's not blame Lilly specifically?

Kaiousei no Senshi
03-28-2013, 04:01 PM
In that case, I still don't like those ideas, but let's not blame Lilly specifically?

That's the way.

may28gemini
04-04-2013, 12:40 PM
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.

dranzer93
04-04-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.

Erm... I never said Detriment planets are worse then Fallen planets? I said Fallen planets are the worst... Read again please.

may28gemini
04-04-2013, 06:16 PM
Actually, I was referring to Kaiousei no Senshi 03:16 AM 03-28-2013
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-04-2013, 08:45 PM
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.

That's fine if that's the way you want to conceptualize it. I just see "corrupted" as being much worse than "weakened".

dranzer93
04-04-2013, 09:04 PM
That's fine if that's the way you want to conceptualize it. I just see "corrupted" as being much worse than "weakened".

But it's completely stated that fall is the weakest and most corrupted... That is why it is labelled all across astrology to be the worst. It is an equivalent to a square aspect. A detriment makes the expression uncomfortable but a fall completely causes difficulty and a negative world in that area. It's not about what YOU think is worse, because it's already a fact that fall is worse

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-04-2013, 09:48 PM
But it's completely stated that fall is the weakest and most corrupted... That is why it is labelled all across astrology to be the worst. It is an equivalent to a square aspect. A detriment makes the expression uncomfortable but a fall completely causes difficulty and a negative world in that area. It's not about what YOU think is worse, because it's already a fact that fall is worse

Can I get a source on that?

dranzer93
04-04-2013, 09:54 PM
Actually, I was referring to Kaiousei no Senshi 03:16 AM 03-28-2013
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.

Oh okay sorry xx

dranzer93
04-04-2013, 10:14 PM
Can I get a source on that?

Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''

I would go and find you a source on it but I am so tired and cant think. I know that in my experience and through all the things I have read and passed by that fall was always the worst, a 70 year old astrologer who has been studying for over 30 years who I know called GreyBeard had written on one of my posts describing it as ruler being the king on his thrown, Exalt being a friend but doesnt rule, Detriment being unfriended and Fall being enemy and not allowed in as it goes against everything the planet wants to do. For example my Moon in Scorpio. Moon does not want to express in such a secretive and dark way, So it's not about it being the complete opposite element its about how the sign is equelly as strong but expresses in a way that goes against the planets nature and rules. Detriment is just not a friend, and it is uncomfortable but it does not go against the planets actual nature. It's just that the signs nature doesn't really work well in a planet that has a different meaning to the signs nature. Where as fall in some ways you could say uses the planet for evil as it is as strong but it is hated.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-04-2013, 10:40 PM
Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''

Ah, I see where we are having our disconnect. Typically, the sections go "Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term, and Face" clearly ordering out the dignities from the most dignifying to the least dignifying. In the next section it is ordered "Detriment, Fall, and Peregrine" mirroring the first section's order of greatest point of distress to least point of distress (not counting minor or accidental things of course).

Also, using this ordering idea completely disregards the sign relationship. Why is a planet's sign of detriment its sign of detriment? Because it's the sign opposite to one of the signs it rules. I don't think it takes much of a stretch to infer that if a planet is its "best" when in it's sign of domicile, it is then at its "worst" when it is in the sign opposite from it.

deepblue
04-04-2013, 10:51 PM
From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 01:04 AM
Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does exalted Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is further strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline and will power comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I possessed strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like but that's probably because I have Mars opposite Uranus) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control).

As I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy, fat, and boring and into self-indulgence foods and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but because my Mars is detriment I cannot express those traits too? Do I even strive to be that way? On some levels yes, but on a larger scale, NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I'm sure Cap Mars can do that if they wanted to, but they're not really comfortable with a lot of dirty grunt work that Taurus Mars revel in. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame and we don't seem to express the negative traits that we're so unfairly deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered. Peel everything back and inspect what's underneath and you find that status and appearances don't quite work the way it's reputed to be. That's all I'm trying to say.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-05-2013, 01:20 AM
Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work)? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT the really all of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), but it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I have strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control). But I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy and boring and all into food and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but am I that way? Do I even strive to be that way? NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame as we're suppose to be since we're deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered.

Certainly you're going to want to use considerations of bonification and maltreatment in any situation, I was hoping that would go without saying, but it is useful to remind people. I was mostly speaking about detriment and fall without regard to other mitigating factors.

If I may, I think the issue here is you're trying to compare aphorisms about the classical dignities with modern, psychological interpretations, and then you doubt them when they don't match up because you've just judged a fish by it's ability to climb a tree.

wca
04-05-2013, 01:22 AM
I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.

actually all you'll have found by checking the list of famous Taurus Mars individuals is a list of famous Taurus Mars individuals. I know where you were trying to go with this but it's statistically insignificant.

anyhow, I think we're on the wrong track here:

Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects.

no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.

I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial.

again, not really. this almost indicates that there's not a philosophical principle underpinning traditional methodology. a planet can only be as strong as its placement, its relationship to its dispositor, etc. so while any planet can be in an unfortunate position, it's wrong to say that any planet any where could get turned upside down -- there has to be a detractor (like Venus being disposited by a Moon in Capricorn sq. Saturn).

Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality?

status indicates degree. so even if something "works," if the planets involved had been better placed, that something could have been great.

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 01:29 AM
I did not disagree as far as the root concept of why detriment and fallen exist. Taurus Mars will always be detriment because it's the opposite of dignified Scorpio Mars- that's just how it is. Scorpio Moon is fallen because Taurus Moon is exalted. Yes, I get all that.

As for aspects "only" measuring relative ease or lack thereof between the 2 planets- I think that's not true at all. I think aspects not only measure (dis)comfort levels between the planets, but shows the potential energies available no matter what positions. I don't think there's any certainty to say that if you compare exalted Cap Mars in the 10th house will beat Taurus Mars in the 10th. My argument isn't one that the detriment or fallen effects are dissipated, but with beneficial aspects, a good house placement, that helps lessen some of the negative effects.

I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?

wca
04-05-2013, 01:31 AM
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)

Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.

opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-05-2013, 01:39 AM
no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.

AHEM! Bonification/Maltreatment by engagement would like to say hello to you, sir!

I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?

While noble, the problem with this is we are all clearly coming from a myriad of different places in our traditions, techniques, and philosophies. It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.

wca
04-05-2013, 01:42 AM
AHEM! Bonification/Maltreatment by engagement would like to say hello to you, sir!

ha, fantastic. always excited to learn something new.

Moog
04-05-2013, 01:49 AM
opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.

I go with the Indian authorities on many matters regarding astrology. It's my opinion that we should look further than just the medieval western tradition in our research.

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 02:07 AM
I don't think disagreements leads to no one learning anything and it's a good thing that there isn't 1 kind of astrology because that means there wouldn't be any differences in opinions and everyone would have to think, do, practice the same. Although it's stable to have 1 kind of astrology and easier to communicate about it, I think that's suffocating and limiting. I like reading what other people say, even if I don't address to everyone's comments but I do learn from others and I'd like to think some enjoy my analyses too.

I'm not an astrologer nor strive to be one, and although I actually have a good foundation on traditional astrology, I take note of traditional astrology as a point of reference but not like it's the be all to end all. Theory is all well and good, but how is that theory when it comes into play? Yes, you're right. I do come from more of a psychological astrology standpoint and I like studying layers. Repeating what has long been "accepted" is so unsatisfying for me. Call it my Mercury trine Pluto. Call it my Scorpio flavored Mars position. Maybe my Scorpio Uranus is the culprit. It doesn't matter, I just think there's more than what's been repeated in texts over and over again.

Astrology has come from a lot of angles and that's why I think it's fun (but probably maddening for a lot of people because they want definite answers). I really do like all the differences that gets presented. I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously accepted. That's not how something is learned or improved upon. I think that's why people should be freely able to express their viewpoints from various astrological standpoints, even if arguments results but at least there's some freedom to express what one thinks. Maybe some don't think anything needs to be improved upon but I do, so what I say, I say with a purpose in mind. I wasn't trying to be noble or lofty, but I thank you for the compliment all the same.

wca
04-05-2013, 02:14 AM
I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously been accepted.

I hope I didn't make you feel that way! it's so easy to be assertive behind a computer screen.

anyway, all viewpoints are welcome, and indeed solicited! I always find they are best received when actual examples are presented of how the long-standing framework somehow falls short.

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 02:23 AM
Hahaha I wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular when I wrote that. Despite having a Pisces Moon, I'm NOT that sensitive!

What I was saying is more general. I've seen people on the forum shy away from further explaining their original observations due to some pressure that if they don't hold consensus, they wouldn't be accepted. There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.

Moog
04-05-2013, 02:25 AM
It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.

I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.

Moog
04-05-2013, 02:27 AM
There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.

I doubt they were banned due to a lack of concensus holding, it's more likely they were also unorthodox in their manners, and how they hold to forum rules.

Moog
04-05-2013, 02:31 AM
I think original ideas in astrology are fine, as long as they are not presented as coming from tradition when they don't.

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 02:35 AM
Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think banning is the appropriate way to treat those on a forum who wish to express their views. That only results in very few people coming around and participating.

Moog
04-05-2013, 02:38 AM
Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think that's just for banning.

I've never known anyone be thrown out for having an original notion. In their manner of asserting them; sure

A lot of people do get super pissed off when everyone doesn't suddenly take their ideas to heart.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-05-2013, 03:25 AM
I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.

In most fields of study it doesn't, but in astrology it always becomes a carousel of "not in my experience". Then it becomes an argument between the different traditions and how they handled certain things.

Unfortunately, this whole thing was my fault. I try not to get involved with these kinds of things. Apparently I wasn't aware of what I was doing when I started out responding here, getting way too caught up in the whole "which is worse" debate.

Anyway, to summarize for the OP and all those reading:

In the Hellensitic and Vedic traditions, there is no detriment, but there is fall. There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.

In the medieval tradition, detriment and fall both exist as essential debilities with detriment being the worse of the two as it causes a planet's significations to become corrupted whereas fall makes a planet's significations weak. You could argue about which is preferable in any given situation, but it's going to be a personal preference about which you would rather handle. For example, a planet in its detriment ruling the Fourth house could show a broken home, an abusive father, something along those lines, whereas that planet in its fall could show the father is sickly or maybe has a low-status job or is otherwise ineffective at being a father.

The modern tradition tends to be rather back and forth about their dignities and debilities (for example, I've seen some modern authors give Mercury's exaltation as Aquarius whereas others keep it as Virgo, and then the exaltations and falls of the outers seems to be all over the place), so I'm not really sure how or even if they handle the debilities.

dr. farr
04-05-2013, 04:17 AM
There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.


As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign:sideways:! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter:whistling:)

may28gemini
04-05-2013, 07:49 PM
Can I ask why you consider only the degree area around Libra Sun to be fallen and not the entire sign?

As much as I like Libra Sun people and we get along quite well because we're airy, I still think that Libra Sun in its entire sign to be fallen because they are still very needy and dependent on others.

dr. farr
04-06-2013, 03:31 AM
Because, in my experience, Sun indications when in Libra (as the entire sign) have not appeared (to me) to be those characteristic of a planet in its Fall.

may28gemini
04-08-2013, 07:25 AM
Fair enough. I'm somewhat in the same position with it comes to exalted Libra Saturn. I don't think all degrees of Libra in Saturn to be exalted as I've met quite a few who display a busted sense of Saturn which isn't very characteristic of Saturn at his finest.

princess valhalla
04-08-2013, 09:08 AM
As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign:sideways:! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter:whistling:)

I agree. Especially the degrees that conjunct Spica and Arcturus!

Soragirl6
04-14-2013, 04:15 PM
From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

dranzer93
04-14-2013, 06:14 PM
[/SIZE]From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

Let's not be limited here... It's a bad habit to project the same debility on each and every planet in fall or each and every planet in detriment because it's going to take different shapes and forms depending. The debility should be catered to the planet and sign and their meanings first of all.

You said that Detriment is emotional and mental exhaustion and that Fall is physical exhaustion. I think this is a limited way of astrology as you are labelling Detriment as being emotional and mental and Fall as being physical with no exceptions. No matter what your sources are I still think that depending on the sign and planet it is going to take different shape as their are more emotionally based planets and signs then others and their are more physically based planets and signs then others.

Moon is in detriment in Capricorn. What are the effects of having Moon in Capricorn? a boring concrete world, non-emotional, physically overworking and cold. If anything these traits are physically exhausting debilitations. Yes Cap moons are cold and have a hard time softening up mentally and emotionally but it doesn't emotionally hurt them to soften up either because they arguably have the strongest will power and are invulnerable either way. It's the physicality, the overworking, the over practicality and mentality that saps moist enjoyment from it's Concrete mind. Perhaps the depressed Capricorn Moons are sick of experiencing life as being dull and jaded and are consciously searching for something to help soften their rock solid filters of how they experience life.

The Moon is in fall in Scorpio, what are the effects of having Moon in Scorpio? the world is a dark and emotionally negative place and it experiences emotions with the most tremendous intensity. Scorpio Moon is emotionally nocturnal, Grave keeping it's emotions. They are the poker-face of the Zodiac, only feeling safe enough to mentally and emotionally scatter through dark and lonely nights due to it's deep anxiety towards it's super vulnerability. This means a dark life. Physicality does come into play here but not without it's emotional vulnerability and dark intensity causing it to be on guard and secretive physically to hide it's emotionality. Note how many times the word emotion is used when describing moon in Fall? that is because it is completely emotional based.

Their emotions are so intense and they are so afraid of their weakness being exposed because they get so deeply inflicted so easily that it causes the naturally secretive nature. But because of this fixed and stubborn quality, their deep dark emotions have no outlet and have nowhere to go so it manifests internally causing it to show up physically. This is what causes the dark and mysterious persona. This is why I think a natural self hatred is a part of Scorpio moon, because they give up everything to be the strongest when the truth is they are just running away from the fact they are weak, which is why they live life physically shelling the way they feel. This is not the way the Moon wants to express itself.

So you see there are mental exhaustions in Capricorn moon and their are high physical exhaustions here too, so how can Detriment just be emotional and mental when Lunar Cap shows more physical exhaustion perhaps then any other placement? and how can Detriment only be mental and emotional when fallen Lunar Scorpio shows more emotionality exhaustion then perhaps any other placement?

Don't forget that not everyone with a Capriconic or Scorpionic moon is going to have everything I said to the full extent. Depending on the rest of their chart and their aspects it's going to effect the way it is funnelled. As for me my Moon in Scorpio is Unaspected and everything I mentioned about Scorpio Moon is how my Scorpio moon works in my personality. I have Pisces sun, Pisces Mercury, Pisces Midheaven, Scorpio Moon, Scorpio Pluto, Cancer Mars, and Cancer Rising in the mix too.

may28gemini
04-15-2013, 12:17 AM
From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

To say that fallen planets are similar to square and detrimental planets are like oppositions is overly simplified and not accurate. Even squares and oppositions take on different expressions depending on the planets involved and even further, what signs those planets occupy. For example: Gemini Jupiter (detriment) square Pisces Mercury (detriment) will be give a different effect than Sagittarius Jupiter (domicile) opposite Gemini Mercury (domicile). The first example is bound to be both physically and mentally exhausted (busted) whereas for the 2nd example, there would probably little to no debilitated effects despite the opposition between the planets.

I have a major problem with you saying that since the fallen planets are in poor position, so it's "not their fault." First off, no one choose to be born when they were born. The natal chart you have is the one that stays with you in this lifetime. Automatically speaking, it's not anyone's "fault" that they're born to who/what/when/where. You're just born and that's that. What you choose to do with what you have is up to you. Some position may create difficult energies but there's no guarantee that Sagittarius or Pisces Jupiter people are going to be luckier than those with Gemini and Virgo Jupiter. Just as there's no guarantee that Capricorn Mars people will be millionaire as opposed to those with Cancer, Taurus, or Libra Mars. It all depends on how the individual uses what they have.

Second, detrimental planets are not the only planets exclusive to causing "damage" as any planets are capable of causing "damage." It is really hard to pinpoint one or 2 exact planet/aspect that's responsible for causing what.

Third, there are very few charts that exist without a debilitated planet. I've only seen 1 chart that doesn't have any debility at all- she's one of my friends but that doesn't mean she escaped roughness nor does it mean she's free of causing any damage in her lifetime.

Alice McDermott
04-15-2013, 12:50 AM
From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents

I agree, in real life I have never seen the horrible results that text books mention.

For example, so many successful politicians in my country have Jupiter in Capricorn- they just seem to have a magic touch in this area; Mars in Cancer is very family oriented and very loyal; Mercury in Pisces is often highly successful in communicative areas ... and so on.

After seeing hardly any correlation between these ways of mapping and real life during my many years of practice, I thought perhaps it was because I was a Southern Hemisphere astrologer and the seasons are reversed e.g. Capricorn is the hottest month of the year, so I thought that maybe this was the reason.

However, I have lots of clients born in the Northern Hemisphere and the same thing applies to them.

In the end I decided to mainly discard these ways of mapping astrology and just look at how a planet would work at its best and worst in a sign and this has worked out very well for me and my clients.

Alice

Moog
04-15-2013, 12:57 AM
The sages tend to talk in extremes, and most charts don't feature such extremes. Extremes are useful for teaching; you don't point to two mildly different objects to teach a principle, you use two widely differing results.

There's a lot more to a planet's condition than simply it's presence in a sign, and if you use that raw fact alone to predict, then you're unlikely to find accuracy.

Alice McDermott
04-15-2013, 01:39 AM
The sages tend to talk in extremes, and most charts don't feature such extremes. Extremes are useful for teaching; you don't point to two mildly different objects to teach a principle, you use two widely differing results.

There's a lot more to a planet's condition than simply it's presence in a sign, and if you use that raw fact alone to predict, then you're unlikely to find accuracy.

Yes, I agree Moog, there is far more to a chart than a planet in a sign, but this said, I still haven't found planets in detriment or fall produces any ill effects in the person unless there are other factors that accentuate problems; for example Mars in Libra gives considerable tactical skill so it is often very active in the charts of those who need to use this skill e.g. politicians, high level business, armed forces etc.,

As I had a practice that relied on skill in forecasting for many, many years, most of the astrological tools I use have been tried out to the nth degree. Planets in detriment and fall just didn't make the cut.

Alice

dranzer93
04-15-2013, 12:18 PM
Yes, I agree Moog, there is far more to a chart than a planet in a sign, but this said, I still haven't found planets in detriment or fall produces any ill effects in the person unless there are other factors that accentuate problems; for example Mars in Libra gives considerable tactical skill so it is often very active in the charts of those who need to use this skill e.g. politicians, high level business, armed forces etc.,

As I had a practice that relied on skill in forecasting for many, many years, most of the astrological tools I use have been tried out to the nth degree. Planets in detriment and fall just didn't make the cut.

Alice

I add flesh to my Astrology as I think it is extremely limited to even neglect decans as humans are so very complex and perplexing it was just natural for me to incorporate decans into my practice, so the first thing I did was use it on myself and I would agree with the answers I found 100%

I have Cancer Rising, Cancer Rising lends a shy and vulnerable appearance but I also look dark and mysterious, I have Cancer Rising in 18 degrees which falls into Scorpio being the 2nd Decan. Put two and two together and this sums up the dark, vulnerable, mysterious and shy look. Not to mention my Scorpio moon adding to the Scorpionic qualities in my 2nd decan Cancer rising. I am not going to say that Risings effect physical genetics, but I am going to say that what rising means to me is the EMOTIONAL image. If you feel something, it's going to show up in your posture either way, now depending on how far off your ascendant is to your moon for example it's going to determine whether you look like how you feel or whether you look completely different to how you feel but either way I think that your emotional image will effect how you feel on the inside too because there is a relationship between you and yourself with how you look and this goes hand in hand with your inside emotions effecting your Rising. I think that the essence given by the Ascendant resonates from you as a person even if the ascendant doesn't match the emotion, because the ascendant will pull out it's own version of that emotion.

This also means that when considering orbs for aspects I believe that no matter how wide the aspect as long as it still falls into the sign there will be energy from that certain aspect. I have predicted something for a person who had 13 degrees wide of an aspect and he couldn't believe how correct I was. I have found that sometimes wider degrees has felt stronger on people then tight degrees and I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I have thought of arguable reasons but let's not get into that now. This is what I mean when I said I add flesh to my practice, if in real life things are showing up in a person then there is no astrology that can deny or beat that, so I use it and try to figure out where at least it is in the chart - being the 13 degrees wide aspect he had - Where as many people would astrologically deny the aspect I would search for the aspect in the personality myself and in this case the wide aspect was very strong within this person.

Okay back on point with Dignities and Debilities. When talking about a Planet in fall or anything else we are talking about it at it's rawest state. This means no aspects involved, no exceptions from other personal planets. Just the meaning of a planet in raw fall without any hand from anything.

Aspects are going to shape things out more than anybody thinks. Mercury dignifies Gemini for it's intellectual, communicative and logical approach, just like the meaning of Mercury itself. I have Mercury in Pisces and I can feel how Mercury has fallen Pisces for it's lack of confidence, unrealistic and intuitive approach. But this does mean a Mercury Pisces mind has the ability to do otherworldly things which can ultimately result in being uniquely clever.

So you see when talking about Moon in Fall for example, we are talking about it in rawest form, when really those people most probably have many different aspects happening towards it.

I have Scorpio moon and it is Unaspected, so the description of moon in fall will be extremely accurate, with the exception of depending it on me as a person and how I use it as well, but for the most part it is going to be undeniable. But for someone with a few strong Trines aspecting their moon, this could remove a lot of the negative description into what sounds like a completely different moon sign. I do not think of a persons Moon sign alone because unless it is unaspected, it is going to go through the filter of their Mercury ect. Astrologically speaking everything going on in ones chart is attached to the same person, so it would be impossible to think of how these people you speak of are doing things with Pisces Mercury alone when the rest of their chart is attached to their Pisces Mercury in some way or another.

This is what makes unaspected planets so difficult because my moon cannot get any hand from any of planets and this causes a possessed in itself type behaviour as the only thing it can do or think of has to be to do with itself making it as extreme of the planet and sign as it gets. Of course I will always have Pisces sun involved in my personality, of course I will always have Cancer mars involved in my personality whether my moon is unaspected or not, but for the most part it becomes confining and caging and extremely one sided.

Alice McDermott
04-16-2013, 01:20 AM
I add flesh to my Astrology as I think it is extremely limited to even neglect decans as humans are so very complex and perplexing it was just natural for me to incorporate decans into my practice, so the first thing I did was use it on myself and I would agree with the answers I found 100%

I have Cancer Rising, Cancer Rising lends a shy and vulnerable appearance but I also look dark and mysterious, I have Cancer Rising in 18 degrees which falls into Scorpio being the 2nd Decan.

If you use decans you might be absolutely fascinated by duads! The Ascendant duad strongly affects the physical appearance; for example, there is a great deal of difference in the appearance of a person who has the Gemini duad of Cancer rising to a person who has the Scorpio duad of Cancer on the Ascendant.

15-17.30' is the Capricorn duad of Cancer, 17.30' - 20 is the Aquarius duad of Cancer, which would be your Ascending duad? The Capricorn duad would tend to give a darker appearance and the Aquarius duad has a marvellous smile that lights up the face.

Alice

dr. farr
04-16-2013, 04:35 AM
Certainly duads are a very important (yet usually ignored) co-factor!! Not only are they extensively applied in Vedic astrology, but their delineation in Western astrology goes back to the very earliest (still extant) book about Western astrology, the "Astronomica" of Manilius (14 AD), in which book duads are accorded much importance.

Soragirl6
04-16-2013, 05:11 PM
To say that fallen planets are similar to square and detrimental planets are like oppositions is overly simplified and not accurate. Even squares and oppositions take on different expressions depending on the planets involved and even further, what signs those planets occupy. For example: Gemini Jupiter (detriment) square Pisces Mercury (detriment) will be give a different effect than Sagittarius Jupiter (domicile) opposite Gemini Mercury (domicile). The first example is bound to be both physically and mentally exhausted (busted) whereas for the 2nd example, there would probably little to no debilitated effects despite the opposition between the planets.

I have a major problem with you saying that since the fallen planets are in poor position, so it's "not their fault." First off, no one choose to be born when they were born. The natal chart you have is the one that stays with you in this lifetime. Automatically speaking, it's not anyone's "fault" that they're born to who/what/when/where. You're just born and that's that. What you choose to do with what you have is up to you. Some position may create difficult energies but there's no guarantee that Sagittarius or Pisces Jupiter people are going to be luckier than those with Gemini and Virgo Jupiter. Just as there's no guarantee that Capricorn Mars people will be millionaire as opposed to those with Cancer, Taurus, or Libra Mars. It all depends on how the individual uses what they have.

Second, detrimental planets are not the only planets exclusive to causing "damage" as any planets are capable of causing "damage." It is really hard to pinpoint one or 2 exact planet/aspect that's responsible for causing what.

Third, there are very few charts that exist without a debilitated planet. I've only seen 1 chart that doesn't have any debility at all- she's one of my friends but that doesn't mean she escaped roughness nor does it mean she's free of causing any damage in her lifetime.

When I say "its not their fault", I am not being literal. The definition of detriment is a cause of harm or damage. Yes Falls in the literal sense are capable of causing damage. But according to the dignity system, they are classified as "falling from Grace". When I say it works on the physical level, typically that is where they are falling. Because of their inherit natures they have a poor expression. With a planet in detriment it is working from the mental plane. This is why it is said to be "their fault". It may not necessarily, literal be their fault as we are born as we are, we cannot help that. But because of the of the planet's mental distortion, it could cause the native to act in very odd and chaotic ways depending, thus causing the damage. I wouldn't say planets in fall are distorted, but rather poorly expressed for the planet. This can be debilitating. For some reason they are in a situation where they cannot express. (If you believe in Horary astrology, this could play out in the real world).
If we were to look at these people from the everyday world, it would be difficult to see this obviously and aspects influence our day to day expressions. When I gave an example of myself, of course I was speaking from my own situations. Obviously people have many different situations that can usually be altered by the natal chart.
Depending on what type of astrology (psychological, Horary, Classical) depends on whether you believe dignities play a strong role. Personally, I feel my moon being in a Falling placement has effected me in a negative way, even though I have a great house placement and nothing but positive aspects to it. But considering that my Venus (planet of love and money) is located in a Sign that is more aggressive and selfish (Aries), I will not ignore that. I believe that that kind of position can be damaging to some degree. I can see this being quite more troublesome.

[/SIZE]

Let's not be limited here... It's a bad habit to project the same debility on each and every planet in fall or each and every planet in detriment because it's going to take different shapes and forms depending. The debility should be catered to the planet and sign and their meanings first of all.

You said that Detriment is emotional and mental exhaustion and that Fall is physical exhaustion. I think this is a limited way of astrology as you are labelling Detriment as being emotional and mental and Fall as being physical with no exceptions. No matter what your sources are I still think that depending on the sign and planet it is going to take different shape as their are more emotionally based planets and signs then others and their are more physically based planets and signs then others.

Moon is in detriment in Capricorn. What are the effects of having Moon in Capricorn? a boring concrete world, non-emotional, physically overworking and cold. If anything these traits are physically exhausting debilitations. Yes Cap moons are cold and have a hard time softening up mentally and emotionally but it doesn't emotionally hurt them to soften up either because they arguably have the strongest will power and are invulnerable either way. It's the physicality, the overworking, the over practicality and mentality that saps moist enjoyment from it's Concrete mind. Perhaps the depressed Capricorn Moons are sick of experiencing life as being dull and jaded and are consciously searching for something to help soften their rock solid filters of how they experience life.

The Moon is in fall in Scorpio, what are the effects of having Moon in Scorpio? the world is a dark and emotionally negative place and it experiences emotions with the most tremendous intensity. Scorpio Moon is emotionally nocturnal, Grave keeping it's emotions. They are the poker-face of the Zodiac, only feeling safe enough to mentally and emotionally scatter through dark and lonely nights due to it's deep anxiety towards it's super vulnerability. This means a dark life. Physicality does come into play here but not without it's emotional vulnerability and dark intensity causing it to be on guard and secretive physically to hide it's emotionality. Note how many times the word emotion is used when describing moon in Fall? that is because it is completely emotional based.

Their emotions are so intense and they are so afraid of their weakness being exposed because they get so deeply inflicted so easily that it causes the naturally secretive nature. But because of this fixed and stubborn quality, their deep dark emotions have no outlet and have nowhere to go so it manifests internally causing it to show up physically. This is what causes the dark and mysterious persona. This is why I think a natural self hatred is a part of Scorpio moon, because they give up everything to be the strongest when the truth is they are just running away from the fact they are weak, which is why they live life physically shelling the way they feel. This is not the way the Moon wants to express itself.

So you see there are mental exhaustions in Capricorn moon and their are high physical exhaustions here too, so how can Detriment just be emotional and mental when Lunar Cap shows more physical exhaustion perhaps then any other placement? and how can Detriment only be mental and emotional when fallen Lunar Scorpio shows more emotionality exhaustion then perhaps any other placement?

Don't forget that not everyone with a Capriconic or Scorpionic moon is going to have everything I said to the full extent. Depending on the rest of their chart and their aspects it's going to effect the way it is funnelled. As for me my Moon in Scorpio is Unaspected and everything I mentioned about Scorpio Moon is how my Scorpio moon works in my personality. I have Pisces sun, Pisces Mercury, Pisces Midheaven, Scorpio Moon, Scorpio Pluto, Cancer Mars, and Cancer Rising in the mix too.

Let me say again that I was not speaking from literal terms here. Clearly by Moon in Scorpios description in literal expression it is the worse. Moon being situated in a sign that is both intense and resentful is not necessarily what I would call a "good placement" Added when I gave the example of myself, I was speaking of myself, not for anyone else. How the planets affects one's personal life is them, and can be influenced by our natal chart. Every planet that is in a domicile does not necessarily produce the best results in the outside world.

However, I feel the planets poor placements can affect whats going on the inside and outside in some way or another. Venus being placed in a sign that is logical and critical (Virgo) is pretty bad. But I can only imagine the effects of Venus (the planet of love and money) being placed in a sign that is selfish and aggressive (Aries) or the ever paradoxical Scorpio who is also aggressive and intense.
Moon being placed in the intense sign of Scorpio filled with deep emotions can give off a really poor emotional expression. The fact that it has deep emotions is not necessarily the uncomfortable part for the moon, but Scorpio's EXPRESSION of those feelings, which usually comes off aggressive and intense. But on the moon standards it is even less comfortable in a sign that is cold, calculating, and harden. That means the moon (planet of feelings and emotion) is in a place that it can hardly express itself at all. This is impart because the Moon is distorted on the mental level for the native. When its in fall its not typically distorted but just weak or poor. There is a POSSIBILITY that this could very well cause an individual to fight within themselves.

Detriment (really dislike immensely) to Fall (exaggerated loathing)

may28gemini
04-16-2013, 10:40 PM
Thanks for further explaining, Soragirl. Sorry, I have Gemini Mercury... I can get too literal LOL

Now that you expanded upon your information, I actually do agree with some of your assessment between fall and detriment.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 in detriment: dreaded Taurus Mars. The damage that my Mars can do... I can pretty much make up a catalog. But it's not my Mars causes damage on me, it can end up causing damage for other people (without any intent) if they get in my way. When I do set out to cause damage to others, it ends up causing more damage than I plan, to which, I relish the destruction. Sounds kinda evil but I only resort to this when I'm being cornered. Detriment isn't incapable of action, the problem is they can be overly spring into action in an exaggerated manner which then can cause damage.

From my personal standpoint, I have contempt for fallen positions because there's a lingering ineptness/inability that I find so intolerable. I just don't respect that level of timidness.

However, when I think of it in real world terms and how it plays out... detriment is worse and more corrupted with the ability to do more damage. For example, in the Sun position of Aqua (det) vs. Libra (fall) as far so who's more corrupted and wayward, Aqua totally takes the cake. They only wish they could be like Leo but act out in the most weird and unsettling ways to achieve their ends and the sad part is, they don't even know or acknowledge that! As for Libra, their crime is sitting on the fence for fear of offending anyone. But Libra doesn't do damage to others the way that Aqua acts out.

Even Taurus Mars (det) vs Cancer Mars (fall), Taurus Mars can be totally dangerous whereas Cancer Mars is too scared to do anything. As someone with Taurus Mars, I will be honest in saying that I have no qualms about bulldozing the whole bloody lot if anyone gets in my way. I'm pretty determined. When I was a youngster, I wouldn't care who or what gets effected, all I know is, I'm focused on getting what I want and if some damage occurs, oh well, no pain no gain. Sounds pretty dreadful for others around me, doesn't it? I have a lot of friends who have Cancer Mars and they tell me they admire my sense of making things happen. They don't realize that some of the things I made happen are at a cost to others... to which now that I'm more mature, I weigh in with more responsibility. However, all my Cancer Mars friends have been telling me for years their simple dreams of moving to another city (as an example) and they STILL have not done anything to act upon such a simple task! Whereas for me, when I determined I'd move, I act on it right away.


As I've said before, I still think that depending on where the detriment planet is in the chart and if there's any benefics aspecting that detriment planet, it can lessen some of the negative effects. I don't think detriment planets can ever totally get rid of its debilities no matter how good the benefics are or nice house placement, but the native can work on the issues to lessen them if the planet is better situated for active correction. I do find that fallen planets have the most difficulty in correction... which goes back to the ineptness. Fallen planets are too scared to act- in one way or the other. Detriment needs to learn to scale back and be proportional, which, in real terms, is doable. Fallen, however, can't even get to the starting block to do anything, let alone correct erroneous ways.

Alice McDermott
04-17-2013, 12:04 AM
in the Sun position of Aqua (det) vs. Libra (fall) as far so who's more corrupted and wayward, Aqua totally takes the cake. They only wish they could be like Leo but act out in the most weird and unsettling ways to achieve their ends and the sad part is, they don't even know or acknowledge that! As for Libra, their crime is sitting on the fence for fear of offending anyone. But Libra doesn't do damage to others the way that Aqua acts out.

Even Taurus Mars (det) vs Cancer Mars (fall), Taurus Mars can be totally dangerous whereas Cancer Mars is too scared to do anything.




I suppose perception is everything! Your experiences of these signs is vastly different to my own and perhaps it is because I am a Southern Hemisphere astrologer.

Sun sign Aquarians in my land are amongst the nicest people I know. They are actively involved in areas of social improvement and are almost always very kind. Though they are definitely a bit wacky their thought processes lead to quite new ways of approaching situations that, in my experience, has lead to great benefits. For example, my Aquarian great-uncle invented something that has become an icon in Australia, the idea was developed from my Aquarian grandmother's thoughts. I haven't met any Aquarians who desire to be Leos or act like Leos. However these are summer born Aquarians, for all I know winter born Aquarians might be as ridiculous as you describe.

Sun sign Librans do 'sit on the fence' as you have described. I have few as friends and getting then to tell you the actual truth is impossible. However, they are all dynamic, successful people. Perhaps this is because they are all born in the spring in my country, but I know a few Northern Hemisphere born Librans and they too do well in life and don't hide their light under a bushel.

Mars in Cancer is a fighter!! After all Mars is in a Cardinal sign. These will fight for the family and/or for their country and/or their business to their last breath, but won't waste their energy on matters they deem unimportant. I haven't met any timid Mars in Cancer people, thought I have met some volatile ones when they feel a member of their family has been insulted.

One of the most successful people in the astrological world I know has Mars in Taurus on the Ascendant. Without her work there would not be a major astrology program available. No one I know would describe her as ruthless, nasty or destructive, thought she can be a little volatile once in a while because this Mars is involved in a T square with Uranus and Jupiter.

My observations that people just didn't act in the 'inferior' way Northern Hemisphere text books described for planets in fall or detriment or the 'superior' way that planets in dignity and exaltation were supposed to give lead to me questioning this whole method of astrological mapping. When computer programs became available I did a great deal of research on people with planets in dignity, exaltation, detriment and fall and found a number of highly successful people with planetary placements in signs that should have given problems. These people used these planet-sign combinations very well indeed. As a result of this research and my observations, now I just think about how a planet would behave in a sign with the aspects it carries and delineate from that.

For example, look at the chart of one of the most successful astrologers/authors of the 20th Century, Noel Tyl (31st December 1936, 3.57 pm, West Chester, PA). He has Jupiter in Capricorn conjunct Sun in Capricorn in the 7th house, he has taught in every continent in the world and has had his books translated into a number of languages - he is globally famous. Jupiter is his oriental planet and has brought him all the benefits that is promised by this planet, even though it is in Capricorn. Nor is he mean, he offers free tutoring in one of his methods on his forum - the only famous astrologer I know who does this.

He has Mars in Libra and I have seen his tactical skills work to great effect a number of times.

Humans seem to want to be prejudiced and will find all kinds of ways to do this. In astrology planets in fall and detriment seem to be one of the major ways this is done. For example, to my horror the FAA Journal a few years ago published an article postulating that people with planets in detriment or fall were evil or more inclined to evil than people with planets in dignity or exaltation. This is beyond ridiculous! The editor of this magazine is a 'traditional' astrologer and quite happily published this appalling article.

Drazner93, I know Moon in Scorpio is a difficult placement, one of my best friends had this placement and my aforementioned grandmother had the Moon in Scorpio square Sun in Aquarius and opposing Pluto in Taurus -she wasn't an easy person to live with. However, she was intensely loyal, enormously intelligent and extremely hard working. She lifted her family from poverty to prosperity and this still continues many generations later. In spite of her planets in detriment and fall, her life was extremely successful, with considerable achievements in business and generations of descendants who are prosperous and happy.

Each planet-sign combination has its positives and negatives, it is up to the consulting astrologer to assess how these combinations will work in the house it resides and with the aspects it carries.

Alice

may28gemini
04-17-2013, 02:57 AM
Fascinating point. I forgot that various hemispheres could possibly effect how positions manifest. It's quite possible that summer born Aquas aren't as psychotic and wonky as the winter born ones. I was only speaking of northern hemisphere astrology. I was actually born on the north eastern hemisphere and quite possibly that has effected me. I'm Libra rising but I find it quite easy for me to swing over to Aries axis when it suits me (and it's been suiting me quite often lately), so I don't know. Ok back to Aqua vs Libra Sun.


It sounds pretty bad from my end, but I generally like Aqua Sun people. I get along with them and usually, we become close friends quickly. The main issue with them is that they are loose cannons and expect the world to change but refuse to include themselves in that lot. They're harder on the external world than they are on themselves...whereas on the polar axis of Leo Sun being dignified that they're harder on themselves and let the external world go on as is. Although I don't tend to feel close to Leo, I find them to be easier people to get along with as their ego isn't damaged. Aquarius people are fun and zany, but they're the first ones to dislodge a relationship based upon other people not agreeing with their weird and unrealistic principles, coupled with strange delusions of grandeur/fame to idealizing themselves achieving some sort of humanitarian cause. All my numerous friends with Aquarius Suns have been busted up all because in the end, they couldn't stand that I didn't agree with them on some stupid principle that I don't even care about. NO Leo has ever left any relationship with me based upon "principles." Actually, no Leo ever left me, period. My relationships with Leos don't sour, whereas, with Aqua, it's highs for the beginning but it crashes and burns in the end. To be fair, there were a few Aquas who came back to me to make amends but I just can't cope with those who are willing to let "humanitarian principles" get in the way of personal relationships.

Now, as for the Libra Sun people, I like them MORE than I like Aqua simply because Libra is so much nicer and not inclined to strange bouts of erratic behavior. Libra is too careful to NOT step on others or get in others' ways... but sometimes they can get quite depressed about themselves and down because I think they're underrated and not very appreciated. Libras are usually pretty sound and balanced... but the problem with keeping balance is that eventually one side or the other tips over and Libra has a very difficult time adjusting to NOT being perfectly balanced and then some angry undercurrent might seep out in quite startling ways...

As far as what's "worse" in reality/practice- detriment. Now I see why planets in detriment is considered grossly corrupted. It's true. Ewww, that means I have a gross corrupted Mars. Oh well, I can handle that.

Soragirl6
04-17-2013, 03:27 PM
Fascinating point. I forgot that various hemispheres could possibly effect how positions manifest. It's quite possible that summer born Aquas aren't as psychotic and wonky as the winter born ones. I was only speaking of northern hemisphere astrology. I was actually born on the north eastern hemisphere and quite possibly that has effected me. I'm Libra rising but I find it quite easy for me to swing over to Aries axis when it suits me (and it's been suiting me quite often lately), so I don't know. Ok back to Aqua vs Libra Sun.


It sounds pretty bad from my end, but I generally like Aqua Sun people. I get along with them and usually, we become close friends quickly. The main issue with them is that they are loose cannons and expect the world to change but refuse to include themselves in that lot. They're harder on the external world than they are on themselves...whereas on the polar axis of Leo Sun being dignified that they're harder on themselves and let the external world go on as is. Although I don't tend to feel close to Leo, I find them to be easier people to get along with as their ego isn't damaged. Aquarius people are fun and zany, but they're the first ones to dislodge a relationship based upon other people not agreeing with their weird and unrealistic principles, coupled with strange delusions of grandeur/fame to idealizing themselves achieving some sort of humanitarian cause. All my numerous friends with Aquarius Suns have been busted up all because in the end, they couldn't stand that I didn't agree with them on some stupid principle that I don't even care about. NO Leo has ever left any relationship with me based upon "principles." Actually, no Leo ever left me, period. My relationships with Leos don't sour, whereas, with Aqua, it's highs for the beginning but it crashes and burns in the end. To be fair, there were a few Aquas who came back to me to make amends but I just can't cope with those who are willing to let "humanitarian principles" get in the way of personal relationships.

Now, as for the Libra Sun people, I like them MORE than I like Aqua simply because Libra is so much nicer and not inclined to strange bouts of erratic behavior. Libra is too careful to NOT step on others or get in others' ways... but sometimes they can get quite depressed about themselves and down because I think they're underrated and not very appreciated. Libras are usually pretty sound and balanced... but the problem with keeping balance is that eventually one side or the other tips over and Libra has a very difficult time adjusting to NOT being perfectly balanced and then some angry undercurrent might seep out in quite startling ways...

As far as what's "worse" in reality/practice- detriment. Now I see why planets in detriment is considered grossly corrupted. It's true. Ewww, that means I have a gross corrupted Mars. Oh well, I can handle that.

lol don't feel so bad... (I've got Venus in Aries...I am very corrupt) XD Like you said before good house placements and good aspects can actually benefit that position. Truth be told in the outside world, a domicile is really not that great, either. In fact the native can sometimes be obnoxious too. I guess cause they enforce the planet so much that some of them can get a little too comfortable with their expression. Like I'm Saturn in Capricorn. That position is very comfortable for the planet, but I've been told that I'm so rigid that I'm always thinking about the consequences, even when I'm going to a party. "If I go to this party tonight, what if I don't get enough sleep and end up waking up late for work?" What doesn't help is that I have it in the 2nd house which makes me really cheap. :P So if the party requires money, I usually don't go XD. Sometimes having a planet in domicile can make you extreme and If you have a planet like Moon and Sun in domicile it can make you self-absorbed. :P
I think the best position to have for a planet is in its exalted placement. Although the native can be exaggerated as far as its goodness (naturally its good, but still has flaws) and naive, they are the most balanced placement for the planet. Not to little, not too much. That's why so many people believe dignity Exaltation is somewhat better than dignity Domiciles, even though domicile has the most power...because in our world, literally they are the best expression.

may28gemini
04-17-2013, 04:31 PM
LOL I don't think anyone should ever feel bad about their chart. Like I said before, whatever you're born with is whatever you're born with so better start liking it or using it best as you can! There's always positives and drawbacks to everything.

I never feel bad about having Taurus Mars, I like my :devil: Mars position. I don't find it insulting at all if that Mars position is considered lazy because in reality, I know that I am not lazy. I do make things happen pretty fast, even faster than my Aries Mars best friend sometimes. Of all the earth Mars, Taurus Mars is the most relaxed and easy going (if you don't provoke our tempers) which is a nice trait. Cap Mars is serious with work work work mentality 24/7 which I admire but hard for them to let their hair down and Virgo Mars has nervous (and productive) energy to which I think gardening would benefit them :innocent: My Mars position knows how to have fun so that's something I find valuable. But at the end of the day, it boils down to the individual and how they use what they have.

Domiciles are strong but yes, I think they are exaggerated in expression too, just as detriments can be exaggerated in the opposite direction. Especially with Mercury (as Mercury is neutral and doesn't have exaltation but can only have domiciles of Gemini and Virgo), I do notice a strong sense of dogma tied with dignified planets. I think that's because when you're "home," you can do whatever you want and be cool with it. I have Gemini Mercury and I'll go around telling people they're wrong and why they're wrong and show them charts, etc. even though I don't even care if they're wrong or not. I just like playing with them :lol: I know it gets on people's nerves that I do that but I think that's funny and it's never personal on my end. It's only until I bump into another Gemini Mercury that we can tease each other and both laugh about it. Virgo Mercury is oh so very smug with their number crunching intellect but I find that very comforting. I don't think they have much of a problem with Gemini Mercury either. When I run into someone with Sagittarius Mercury or worse, Pisces, that's really horrible for me and I feel like I got sent to remedial class :andy: That must be how Aries and Scorpio Mars feel about Taurus and Libra Mars.

As for your point on thinking exaltation is the ideal and nicest expression of a planet, I would agree with that. Usually, there's an underlying naivety which I find to be quite surprising and even annoying... even for Cap Mars and I NEVER think Capricorn anything can be "innocent." But in general, everything does have drawbacks.

I belong to the Libra Saturn generation from the 80s and we just finished up our 1st Saturn's return. I've met a lot of those with the same Saturn and I'll admit it, I'm GROSSED by those of my generation. I think too many of them are reckless and throw themselves so quickly and easily into relationships indiscriminately that none of the ones I've met can be without having someone for longer than a month, which I find to be pathetic!!! Libra Saturn is super insecure about having relationships and although we're generally a nice lot, we're also too much into depending upon others which can be crippling. In my teens to mid-20s, I was obsessed with having a relationship, how to maintain it, keeping things on the up and up with my bf then husband and all that. He's part of the Libra Saturn generation, too. When we found each other, we were in our late teens and we both wanted to have a relationship and believe it or not, we fell in love at first sight and he said he wanted to marry and grow old with me two weeks after we met. When I was going to high school, virtually EVERYBODY had been paired off. When I started college, oh man, EVERYONE of my freshman class either had someone they've been with for awhile or scrambling to get someone! It was super normal during the late 90s and early 2000s to find anyone with Libra Saturn to have been paired like they're married (if not already married). It's kinda hilarious to me to see my generation grow up and we're still "marriage" minded LOL Some things never change!

Soragirl6
04-17-2013, 10:21 PM
LOL I don't think anyone should ever feel bad about their chart. Like I said before, whatever you're born with is whatever you're born with so better start liking it or using it best as you can! There's always positives and drawbacks to everything.

I never feel bad about having Taurus Mars, I like my :devil: Mars position. I don't find it insulting at all if that Mars position is considered lazy because in reality, I know that I am not lazy. I do make things happen pretty fast, even faster than my Aries Mars best friend sometimes. Of all the earth Mars, Taurus Mars is the most relaxed and easy going (if you don't provoke our tempers) which is a nice trait. Cap Mars is serious with work work work mentality 24/7 which I admire but hard for them to let their hair down and Virgo Mars has nervous (and productive) energy to which I think gardening would benefit them :innocent: My Mars position knows how to have fun so that's something I find valuable. But at the end of the day, it boils down to the individual and how they use what they have.

Domiciles are strong but yes, I think they are exaggerated in expression too, just as detriments can be exaggerated in the opposite direction. Especially with Mercury (as Mercury is neutral and doesn't have exaltation but can only have domiciles of Gemini and Virgo), I do notice a strong sense of dogma tied with dignified planets. I think that's because when you're "home," you can do whatever you want and be cool with it. I have Gemini Mercury and I'll go around telling people they're wrong and why they're wrong and show them charts, etc. even though I don't even care if they're wrong or not. I just like playing with them :lol: I know it gets on people's nerves that I do that but I think that's funny and it's never personal on my end. It's only until I bump into another Gemini Mercury that we can tease each other and both laugh about it. Virgo Mercury is oh so very smug with their number crunching intellect but I find that very comforting. I don't think they have much of a problem with Gemini Mercury either. When I run into someone with Sagittarius Mercury or worse, Pisces, that's really horrible for me and I feel like I got sent to remedial class :andy: That must be how Aries and Scorpio Mars feel about Taurus and Libra Mars.

As for your point on thinking exaltation is the ideal and nicest expression of a planet, I would agree with that. Usually, there's an underlying naivety which I find to be quite surprising and even annoying... even for Cap Mars and I NEVER think Capricorn anything can be "innocent." But in general, everything does have drawbacks.

I belong to the Libra Saturn generation from the 80s and we just finished up our 1st Saturn's return. I've met a lot of those with the same Saturn and I'll admit it, I'm GROSSED by those of my generation. I think too many of them are reckless and throw themselves so quickly and easily into relationships indiscriminately that none of the ones I've met can be without having someone for longer than a month, which I find to be pathetic!!! Libra Saturn is super insecure about having relationships and although we're generally a nice lot, we're also too much into depending upon others which can be crippling. In my teens to mid-20s, I was obsessed with having a relationship, how to maintain it, keeping things on the up and up with my bf then husband and all that. He's part of the Libra Saturn generation, too. When we found each other, we were in our late teens and we both wanted to have a relationship and believe it or not, we fell in love at first sight and he said he wanted to marry and grow old with me two weeks after we met. When I was going to high school, virtually EVERYBODY had been paired off. When I started college, oh man, EVERYONE of my freshman class either had someone they've been with for awhile or scrambling to get someone! It was super normal during the late 90s and early 2000s to find anyone with Libra Saturn to have been paired like they're married (if not already married). It's kinda hilarious to me to see my generation grow up and we're still "marriage" minded LOL Some things never change!
lol XD the joys of Saturn in Libra! I would prefer your placement than mine. :) A lover's generation! :D My peers in high school were too concerned about gaining some sort of respect, making so much money, and they were all dry and boring. :P And ruthless, GOSH!

may28gemini
04-18-2013, 12:28 AM
I wonder if I should have fallen into the Capricorn Saturn generation because that seems like it's a LOT easier to deal with self issues to respectability and traditions. But then again, Capricorn Saturn is very selfish and can get downright cold if their status gets challenged and I'm not well situated for that sort of view on life. Like I said, we're only born into the chart we have and we only know our own manifestations.

PFFFFTTTTTT generation of lovers my foot!!! I'm not sure if there's any "joys" particularly tied to Libra Saturn, but I know my generation boohoos when they are single LOL I belong to a section of Saturn where everyone gets DRAMATIC if they're not tied to someone else!

As for me, I use to boohoo that I'm single, but I stopped that quite sometime ago and don't even care anymore. I don't even bother to do anything about my single status as I'm quite comfortable being alone.

More recently I've made peace with myself that if end up alone for the rest of my days on earth, it won't be the worst thing ever. I like being by myself and I like the freedom I have. I've learned that in order for me to give up my freedom, the man must be pretty awesome for me to give up my freedom (again) and if I don't meet such an awesome guy in this lifetime, so be it. I already gotten that whole marriage thing outta the way in my youth so I'm not insecure about my level of attraction.

Don't get me wrong, I would like very much to be with a good and suitable man, but I've learned to NOT be so hung up on it. During my Saturn's return, all the sparkly-eyed delusions of youth and imaginings of perfect bliss with a soulmate got shattered. It doesn't mean I lost my sense of fun, but I do know what I want and my concept of what entails a strong partnership has crystallized. Whether or not I'll experience that again in my lifetime depends on luck. At this point, I've had a long string of bad luck with no signs of change so I am not gunho starting a relationship anytime soon.

That's the REAL lesson that the Libra Saturn generation must learn - to be ok on your own. Saturn's lesson isn't to be a hermit or turn into a nun/monk... but to function independently and love the self as much as you love others (and my Saturn generation finds it very easy to love others, but not so much ourselves). I see so many of former schoolmates married and comfortable but NOT really happy but they have the 1 thing that I don't anymore... someone by their side and this is really a weird and funny thing, but they all say how "brave" I am to bear the world without someone LOL

Therese
05-13-2013, 08:49 PM
HI,

This is a very interesting discussion!

Maybe I can offer myself as another case study? lol

My Venus is in detriment (in scorpio), but I actually consider that I have been amazingly lucky in love! I did not have many relationships, but the few I had were deep, enriching and quite long-lasting. (And now I am happily married :) )

My Venus is part of a stellium with uranus and mars and mercury in the fifth house, and I read that when Mars is much stonger than Venus, it is supposed to be "animalistic" according to some and "manipulative" according to others. But maybe venus in detriment can mean something else, or what do you think:

at least two of my ex-boyfriends gave voice to something interesting during/at the end of our relationship.

One of them knelt down and gave me a rose when he announced it was over between us. He told me I was the "most straight" and "fair" girl he had met so far, and he respected me for that, but actually this was the problem! Because he realized that he needed a woman to be "tricky" and "flirty" and "seductive" and "playing games" with him in order to "keep the sparkle alive". I am definitely none of that. I like to be "barefooted" as much as I can be. And with the one I love, I love to be naked :). In all possible meanings of the word (body and soul). I just don't do "flirty" and "seductive", and truth is I just don't see the point.

The other boyfriend (a psychologist) told me that I had a "feminine soul" but a "masculine mind". He too, told me that I lacked those above mentioned "feminine" qualities.

However, nobody ever said I was not "feminine", quite the contrary, but it's somehow a different kind of feminity. I don't remember ever receiving embarrasing remarks, looks, or compliments most women complain about. Men tend to respect me in an old-fashioned way, which I actually enjoy. my first boyfriend (when I was 19!) needed half a year to be able to hold my hand, lol!

T.

greybeard
05-14-2013, 02:56 AM
Fall can indicate many things. Here are some possibilities. Selection of the most fitting meaning comes from consideration of the ruler of the fallen planet, aspects, etc.:

Fall suggests a descent from a higher state to a lower.
It can represent a loss of hold or attachment or removal of support.
Collapse.
Diminution of number or value, intensity, etc.
Loss of rank or standing.
Yielding to tempation; sin.
Disgrace or dishonor.
Hanging down, drooping...depression, lowered spirit, dejection (together with the causes)
To pass by right or inheritance a position or condition that is unfavorable. To be saddled with an onerous or damaging responsibility.
Emaciation; loss of strength, vitality, power. To be in arrears.
To renounce allegiance to something.
To retreat or lose ground. To recant or reject. Withdrawal.

These are some of the possible manifestations of Fall. The specific meaning in a given chart can usually be divined by examination of the factors affecting the fallen planet.

Planets either in fall or exaltation tend toward sudden and occasional action (when activated). Planets in domicile or detriment tend toward a more continuous action. So we tend to notice a fallen planet more, because it is not "habitual".

Detriment suggests something damaging, causing loss or injury. The ability of the planet to act according to its own nature is somehow impaired. An example is Mars in Taurus, where there may be great persistence and endurance, but there is also a reticence to act opportunely, and resultant loss of initiative. Energy is not released in a timely or appropriate way, builds up, and then may be released in an excessively forceful way. Thus comes loss or injury in any one of many ways. A planet in detriment tends toward a mode of action that may run contrary to personal interest. The planet acts "out of character." The nature of detriment is best understood by examining the nature of the planet, then comparing its natural action to what occurs in the opposing sign.

I generally see fall and exaltation as indicative of "fortuitous action", often external. Domicile and detriment seem to me to show consistent modes of action.

I agree with several others here, and disagree with Lilly. I think fall is more dramatic and more damaging than detriment. Nevertheless, detriment operates on a more or less continous basis and does cause "damage" or impairment to the native. Whether detriment or fall, the lord of the injured planet should be consulted.

dr. farr
05-14-2013, 03:38 AM
Historically, in the West, originally only domicile (rulership), exaltation and fall, were considered (this is still the case in Vedic astrology) The additional category of detriment, only came into consideration (as an essential debility) in the early Islamic transitional era.

(However, in my delineations I consider detriment, even though the concept is a "late arrival", historically speaking)

greybeard
05-14-2013, 05:04 AM
True. Exaltation is the oldest of the essential dignities, found in Babylon. My understanding is that its origin, its basis, is unknown.

I've always thought the early-modern view of Peregrine a bit strange. The emphasis was placed on a peregrine planet from the "home town" perspective, as in "Hark, hark, the dogs do bark. The beggars are coming to town." The wandering, out-of-element quality experienced by the peregrine himself was downplayed. Well and good in horary, but not necessarily in natal.

Therese
05-14-2013, 08:11 AM
Hi all,

I see that Venus, for example, has two of everything, exaltation, detriment and fall. Could this correspond to the dual nature of Venus, heavenly and earthly? In which case, a scorpio venus would be a detrimented taurus (earthly) venus?

I also see that Mercury is another interesting case, with two domiciles, two detriments, one exaltation and one fall. As he is both a psychopomp and a trickster, it is not surprising, though :)

T.

greybeard
05-14-2013, 02:23 PM
If the classical rulerships are used, instead of the modern ones, all the planets but Sun and Moon enjoy two rulerships/detriments and one each of exaltation/fall. The arrangement of signs ruled is symmetrical.