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View Full Version : How do you combine triplicity with detriment/fall of the same planet in a natal chart


zona967
01-18-2013, 12:19 PM
I was thinking about for example Venus in Scorpio and Venus in Virgo in a day chart and Moon in Capricorn in a night chart.

Both are essential dignities/debilities, how do you combine them in the interpretation? I've come to agree with the opinion that simply adding the points up gives less info than if we keep all factors in mind at all time. If that were a contest chart, we'll need to add them up to determine the outcome, but how about a natal chart, ceteris paribus?

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-22-2013, 06:42 AM
This is an interesting question. Unfortunately I'm not much of a natal astrologer myself, so I might not be able to answer your question. Hopefully, though, my bumping this thread will get others to take another look at it *hint hint*.

Anyway, I would consider what the different dignities and debilities are saying. A planet in detriment is a planet that is disorganized, scattered, maybe even injured, but triplicity affords a planet fortuitous circumstances. So, perhaps it's something like an athlete who is not very talented (in debility) but gets random moments of good grace to make good plays.

aglaya
01-22-2013, 12:52 PM
It is a very interesting topic. Mars in Cancer is yet another good example - Cancer is the sign of its fall and, at the same time, Mars rules the water triplicity by day and night. It almost looks like and essentially strong debilitated planet. :)

A while ago, I tried to find as many people with such Mars and examine their martian characteristics. I'm not sure I was even surprised when I noticed that, at least when it comes to famous people, some of the best athletes of our time have Mars in Cancer.
Just look a the list:

Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic
Jean-Claude Van Damme (masculine figure, martial arts, sports)
Zinedine Zidane (one of the best football/soccer players ever)
Lionel Messi (currently the best football player in the World)
Michael Phelps
Diego Maradona etc.

So, not only can a fallen Mars in its own triplicity in Cancer be a good sportsman but, as it turns out, this list contains 4 or more names of the best athletes of all times!

It certainly something to think about!


Cheers,

aglaya

zona967
01-22-2013, 01:01 PM
I'm not sure I was even surprised when I noticed that, at least when it comes to famous people, some of the best athletes of our time have Mars in Cancer.
Just look a the list:

Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic
Jean-Claude Van Damme (masculine figure, martial arts, sports)
Zinedine Zidane (one of the best football/soccer players ever)
Lionel Messi (currently the best football player in the World)
Michael Phelps
Diego Maradona etc.

You gotta be kidding me...

Wonder how many of those are night charts though, I'm trying to stick with Lilly as that's the only chance for my Venus in Scorpio, it would be fully ruled by Mars otherwise. :D

So... there goes:
Federer - day
Djokovic - night
Van Damme - night
Zidane - night
Messi - night
Phelps - day
Maradona - day

I'm personally a huge fan of Federer (although I haven't watched tennis lately) and refuse to accept his Mars is in fall, hmm.

Wait, there we go. In Federer's chart Mars is in mutual reception by domicile with the Moon in Scorpio.
In Phelps' chart the Moon is in Sag (nothing interesting there) but Mars is in the 1st house. So maybe it means that with a lot of practice (fall) he can actually achieve something big (in the 1st house)?
In Maradona's chart the Moon is in Pisces (again nothing interesting) and Mars is in the 9th house. o.O It rules the Ascendant though. Jupiter's in Capricorn in the 2nd at least, so that's mutual reception by exaltation.

Now the night charts:
Djokovic - Moon in Aries, mutual reception by domicile.
Van Damme - Moon in Virgo (nothing interesting), Jupiter is in Sag (domicile).
Zidane - Moon in Scorpio, mutual reception by domicile + Jupiter in Capricorn, mutual reception by exaltation.
Messi - Moon in Gemini (nothing interesting), Jupiter in Aries (mixed mutual reception domicile-exaltation).

That would seem to go AGAINST the notion that debilitated planets have nothing to give to each other. I've actually read one of the authors (sorry, don't remember which one) claiming something along the lines of 'but pay attention if there's mutual reception, that's huge.' :D Not with this language, I'll have to search for it, not sure if I'll find the right place, I think it was somewhere on skyscript.

aglaya
01-22-2013, 02:15 PM
You gotta be kidding me...


Nice company, aye?! :)


That would seem to go AGAINST the notion that debilitated planets have nothing to give to each other.

Like I said, their charts are worth giving a closer look! Each one of them is a TRUE MARTIAN (jean Claude Van Damme with a fallen Mars- give me a break! :D )

zona967
01-22-2013, 02:27 PM
jean Claude Van Damme with a fallen Mars- give me a break! :D

But he's still in movies, he's not in sport and he would be the weakest in sport from those here. :p But all these top players, come on, maybe a closer look to the ruler of the Ascendant (vitality) might be needed, maybe it's not always Mars. Or.. Mars in Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the Moon is also said to represent the body: nutrition and all that. So maybe Mars in Cancer is sensitive to the needs of the body, food, exercise, everything needed to keep it healthy and maybe that's also a motif there. :)

aglaya
01-22-2013, 02:39 PM
But he's still in movies, he's not in sport and he would be the weakest in sport from those here. :p

Oh, he is not the real example of a sportsman, that's for sure however, he is widely recognised for his martian characteristics that go beyond sports- that is the only reason why I added his name to the list. He is strong (or at least his muscles are impressive :D ), he does look like a good (although stereotypical ) example of the male principle (strong and handsome man) and, even as a performer, he is recognised as a fighter. Martial arts are always around him.

So maybe Mars in Cancer is sensitive to the needs of the body, food, exercise, everything needed to keep it healthy and maybe that's also a motif there.

That's actually a really good point! And, there's another something that may be interesting- prominent Cancer suggests a round body and could be one of the reasons why people with a great influence from this sign tend to become overweight. in addition, the exaltation of Jupiter is placed in that sign and Jupiter tends to enlarge and maximize things - when we put all this together (Cancer, exlatation of Jupiter and Mars)- yes, firstly, their Mars is potentially controlling their weight, secondly, their martian activities are almost exaggerated - Phelps (Mars in water- perfect! :) ) is THE fastest, Djokovic (the youngest player in the top 20, the youngest ever to win this or that...), Mardona (the best one ever :D ), Messi (some would say the same thing :) but he also has his own record- the biggest number of goals in a single year etc.). This is quite an impressive crowd!

zona967
01-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Oh, he is not the real example of a sportsman, that's for sure however, he is widely recognised for his martian characteristics that go beyond sports- that is the only reason why I added his name to the list. He is strong (or at least his muscles are impressive :D ), he does look like a good (although stereotypical ) example of the male principle (strong and handsome man) and, even as a performer, he is recognised as a fighter. Martial arts are always around him.

'Handsome' would be Venusian stuff, actually Van Damme has Libra rising with Venus in Scorpio (that would make him my ideal partner as my 7th is in Libra ruled by Venus in Scorpio). So... either he is indeed handsome as he has Libra rising or not at all since Venus is in detriment. However, it's the perfect artistic (Venus) representation of battle and martial arts (Mars). I know a guy with Mars in Libra who's into scale modelling (again artistic representation of war). Very interesting those male-female combinations, I like 'em.

And, there's another something that may be interesting- prominent Cancer suggests a round body and could be one of the reasons why people with a great influence from this sign tend to become overweight. in addition, the exaltation of Jupiter is placed in that sign and Jupiter tends to enlarge and maximize things - when we put all this together (Cancer, exlatation of Jupiter and Mars)- yes, firstly, their Mars is potentially controlling their weight, secondly, their martian activities are almost exaggerated - Phelps (Mars in water- perfect! :) )

Indeed.

JUPITERASC
01-22-2013, 06:02 PM
It is a very interesting topic. Mars in Cancer is yet another good example - Cancer is the sign of its fall and, at the same time, Mars rules the water triplicity by day and night. It almost looks like and essentially strong debilitated planet. :)

A while ago, I tried to find as many people with such Mars and examine their martian characteristics. I'm not sure I was even surprised when I noticed that, at least when it comes to famous people, some of the best athletes of our time have Mars in Cancer.
Just look a the list:

Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic
Jean-Claude Van Damme (masculine figure, martial arts, sports)
Zinedine Zidane (one of the best football/soccer players ever)
Lionel Messi (currently the best football player in the World)
Michael Phelps
Diego Maradona etc.

So, not only can a fallen Mars in its own triplicity in Cancer be a good sportsman but, as it turns out, this list contains 4 or more names of the best athletes of all times! It certainly something to think about! Cheers, aglaya
Could be interesting to research their Sidereal natal chart :smile:

aglaya
01-22-2013, 06:06 PM
Could be interesting to research their Sidereal natal chart :smile:



True! It would also be nice to know more about their private life to see as to how their Mars reacts in every day life however, we will never have enough informations on that sphere of their life to be able to draw some sound conclusions!

JUPITERASC
01-22-2013, 06:20 PM
True! It would also be nice to know more about their private life to see as to how their Mars reacts in every day life however, we will never have enough informations on that sphere of their life to be able to draw some sound conclusions!
Exactly. Not possible to go to such in-depth focus for each and every natal chart on a daily basis

That's why it's a great idea to learn how to interpret natal charts and then keep a weather eye on transits and life events as related to one's own natal chart - useful, interesting and fun :smile:

Konrad
02-01-2013, 10:27 AM
In response to the original question, we first have to know what each dignity and debility means forgetting anything we have ever learned of scoring and weighting. The texts, especially those of later authors are replete with analogies of what the dignities mean, but I find these to unhelpful since they promote a hierarchical view of the dignities before telling us exactly what they mean.

Now the following is my own understanding of the triplicites and may or may not mirror the ancient astrologers' own. Valens and Dorotheus both echo a tradition that advises us to look to the triplicity lords of the Sect Light to see the level of support a native gets in each period of life. This for me is key; support. It is my understanding that the triplicites show support. A planet in its own triplicity is supported, especially when aspected by those who would support him/her i.e. the fellow members of the triplicity they rule. It seems to me that everything that the triplciities stand for relates back to support: the support of the native through the king or queen (The Sect Light); the support each ruler itself has when predominating (just because it is a day chart, Jupiter and Saturn do not do nothing in regards to the rulership of triplicities, they just take a supporting role), no planet rules a triplicity on its own, it always has support; the triplicites are linked by trine and the trine is the aspect of support, friendship and harmony.

A planet then in its own triplicity is suported and with friends. I think we all know how much difference support and friendship can make to the success of our endevours. Of course, if we have bad friends (malefics in bad states), or friends unable to help us (benefics in bad states, or fellow rulers not aspecting the planet), this can harm our actions. So each chart must be read individually to see the level of support a planet receives. This should be done in the basic, traditional manner

As for fall, this is the opposite of exaltation. I think the analogy of being an honoured guest is about right and conveys what we want for this dignity. The opposite of this is to be ignored or shunned, in a place where no-one cares about you or notices you. This is difficult as it restricts the basic nature of the planets. Benefics will do less good because they cannot make full use of their own resources (for one thing they are not in their own domiciles and, worse, they are in a place which causes them to be ignored, thus not being able to use another's resources) while malefics will do more harm as they are unseen and unrestrained and thus more destructive.

Putting it together for Mars in Cancer say, ignoring sect, we have Mars as a malefic in fall. He is being shunned and ignored and is given free-reign in a place where he is not restrained. Since the Moon rules him and is also a triplicity lord, her influence is of vital importance as to how destructive he will be. If she and Venus both regard him from good places, we can say he wil be a bad, low-down, shunned man with good friends - their goodness will restrain him somewhat, especially the Moon since he is in her house and lives by her rules. A bad man in the company of pure angels is less likely to be bad while they are around (aspecting him). If the Moon is in Gemini say, then she cannot help him or restrain him and he has free-reign to be as destructive as he can which will harm both the house the Moon rules and the Moon herself.

A benefic would be a different story. Due to their natures, it takes a lot for them to harm the native. At worst, we can expect unfulfilled hopes and thwarted actions, at best we can see a reduced level of their goodness. Of course, Jupiter can still bring "bad" things (if he rules the death for instance) but he will bring them in a Jupiterean way and they will be "bad" for the native's life, not inherently bad in themselves.

We can do the same thing for the other two dignities aswell, domicile and bound. I don't actually see much wrong with being in detriment but I'm not in a great number of people's company there. I see it more like being totally reliant on someone else for the basics of life. This can be uncomfortable and can make you do things you wouldn't normally but if you have a good host it won't matter so much, if you're saddled with a tyrant then it is hell-on-Earth. Consequently, it may have occurred to some that a malefic in its own house should be able to do more harm rather than less since in their own house, they can act more closely to their inherent natures (it certainly did to Bernadette Brady). I find this to be based upon a misunderstanding of what being in domicile means. For me, it shows somwone in charge of their household. If you have a bad man in charge of a household, his own inherent nature (his maleficence) is, again, restrained, since he is bogged down in the duty of running his house; he is there and living it. He doesn't have time to be destructive since he is running his house 24/7. It is only when he is sitting twiddling his thumbs in Mr. Jupiter's house in the height of day that a fire-decorated wall looks ever more appealing. We want to restrain malefics since they rule things which are not conducive to life and prosperity in it. We want them occupied in their duties, so that they can do less harm. This is completely contrary to benefics, so we first must understand the nature of the planets and then the dignities before we put them together.

As for the sportsmen, I wouldn't think Mars being in Cancer would help or hinder them in any way since the dignity shows us how Mars will behave and to what ends (along with sect), not how good the native is at Martian things (I'd say sport is more Mars with Mercury anyway).

JUPITERASC
02-01-2013, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the clarity of your resolution to the OP's question Konrad!

Thank you also for the practical examples of ancient techniques at your blog http://esmaraldaastrology.blog.com which is a rich resource containing great material for ongoing study of these effective delineative methods :smile:

Konrad
02-01-2013, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the clarity of your resolution to the OP's question Konrad!

Thank you also for the practical examples of ancient techniques at your blog http://esmaraldaastrology.blog.com which is a rich resource containing great material for ongoing study of these effective delineative methods :smile:

No problem. As I said on it, it is frustrating when you are starting out and no-one seems to want to delineate anything. It is all talk, talk, talk and no action. The ancient authors were terrible for it. :)