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tsmall
01-03-2013, 09:10 PM
The house of the God, the Joy of the Sun.

I'm opening this thread as a result of the discussion started here

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58824

for anything related to the 9th. Religion, dreams, travel, planets in, planets ruling. I'm probably forgetting something...

JUPITERASC
01-03-2013, 09:26 PM
The house of the God, the Joy of the Sun.

I'm opening this thread as a result of the discussion started here

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58824

for anything related to the 9th. Religion, dreams, travel, planets in, planets ruling. I'm probably forgetting something...
I could be wrong.... Education, Higher Learning, Philosophical pursuits in general :smile:

kimbermoon
01-03-2013, 10:00 PM
On a higher level of understanding, this house is also about cultural, educational, religious imprinting; spiritual growth through the gaining of greater insight and awareness; growing towards our highest potential; it is about searching for truths and the higher meanings and purposes of life; it is about an expanded consciousness in order to get in touch with the subconscious level of our being. As opposed to the Laws of Man, it also relates to the Universal Laws that affect us on the metaphysical level; the search for truth, trust and faith. With this house, we have to Think Big.:biggrin:

Olivia
01-03-2013, 11:08 PM
Sciences. And once again I turn to ibn Ezra because of an utterly fascinating variance in the Hebrew and Latin texts.

Hebrew text:
the science of the Sun is the law...

Latin text (footnoted): Oddly enough the Latin has for the Sun, solis scientia sunt iudicia astrorum. ' . . . the science of the Sun is the judgment of the stars. [Rob Hand], That fits with the prophecy and prophetic dreams, mentioned above. [Meira Epstein]'...

Mars seems pretty universally bad in 9, has anyone found any striking examples of this?...

Quoting once more, and this one I have seen borne out in practise - it's really interesting:

Venus in the ninth house indicates faith mixed with love and desire....

A lot of 9th house matters are shared to some degree by the third house, too, especially religion and prophecy.

Just some stuff.

aglaya
01-03-2013, 11:41 PM
To what has already been mentioned, I could only add that it rules all the people who affect or stimulate our growth (teachers, priests, spiritual guides etc)., distant countries but also distant travel, pilgrimage and pilgrims

In Mundane astrology it rules foreign affairs, international law, religion, the Church and all institutions dealing with religious or spiritual matters, colleges, educational institutions, philosophical and scientific institutions but also publishing industry, airlines, sea traffic, world conferences etc.

As a derived 3rd from the 7th, it rules spouses' brothers and sisters.

When examined through the prism of the 3rd/9th axis, in a way, it extends the activities described by the 3rd: if the 3rd is a chit-chat then the 9th is a confession or counceling, if newspapers are the 3rd, heavy books are the 9th etc. Short course / high education, information / knowledge, phone call / travel, hearing something / understanding something etc.

It cadent, diurnal and masculine and the house in which the Sun rejoices.
In medical astrology, it rulers buttocks, hips and thighs.
The colours are green and white.

This house is naturally associated with Jupiter and Sagittarius. You can often find Jupiter inside the 9th in the natal charts of trully religious people. However, don't be surprised if you find a strong activity of well placed and dignified planets inside the 9th in the charts of people who claim to be atheists- healthy planets inside this house push the individuals to think about things represented by the 9th (including religion) and they often have very sound and well ground opinions when it comes to such matters.

The direction is South-south-west.

It also rules the first part of the person's adulthood or late teenage years ( the beginning of the 2nd quarter of life; houses 9,8,7), the 2nd 6 hour period of the day, summer months and choleric temperament.

aglaya
01-04-2013, 12:15 AM
Mars seems pretty universally bad in 9, has anyone found any striking examples of this?...

Quoting once more, and this one I have seen borne out in practise - it's really interesting:

Venus in the ninth house indicates faith mixed with love and desire....




Hi, olivia!

Traditional authors teach us that Saturn inside the 9th can also hinder the positive manifestations of the 9th house (W. Lilly says:"Mars or Saturn have been infortunately placed in this house; the Querent hath either been little better then a Atheist or a desperate Sectarist").

Personally, I tend to be very flexible in reading traditional texts when it comes to the 9th and the 12th house. The reason is simple- some of the most important texts were written in at the peak of the inquisition and, from today's standpoint, I believe that we need to adjust some of the lines to fit the standards of the liberal and democratic societies that we now (hopefully) live in. Witch hunts, ghosts and dungeons aren't really popular any more :) , are they?! however, more people get high education nowadays and the developement of sciences has gone a long way since the middle ages which not only means that some parts of the texts can be almost completely eliminated but also that the potential meaning need to be expanded.

So, in terms of Mars inside the 9th, I'd say that much will depend upon its essential strength. Similarly to Mars inside the 3rd, a well dignified Mars in this house can have a very benevolent nature and help the Nativity. An ill dignified planet could, of course, act as an obstacle. My Mars is inside the 10th and I have always had troubles with the authorities- I just don't like to be bossed and preached. However, it has also helped me protect myself from the negative influences and bossy people.
I'd say that Mars inside the 9th usually acts in a very similar way only, in this particular case, the anger is oriented towards either religious authorities or teachers. A well placed Mars inside the 9th, if supported by other promises, could make a great world traveller who is not afraid of visiting strange places and tasting suspicious food. :)

Zarathu
01-04-2013, 12:30 AM
Key Words:


NINE:

RELIGION, SCIENCE, HIGHER EDUCATION, DIPLOMAS, CEREMONIES, THE LAW, LEGAL PROCEDURES, TRAVEL, DREAMS OF THE FUTURE, INSURANCE, PUBLISHING, INLAWS, GRANDCHILDREN

JUPITERASC
01-04-2013, 12:30 AM
....Mars seems pretty universally bad in 9, has anyone found any striking examples of this?...
"If Mars were in the 9th house the native will bring forward lies and affirm them with oaths" Abu Bakr Chapter II.1.7 ON NATIVITIES
....Quoting once more, and this one I have seen borne out in practise - it's really interesting:

Venus in the ninth house indicates faith mixed with love and desire....
"If Venus were in the 9th house and in her own domicile or exaltation, the native will be a famous hermit, and this most strongly if Jupiter aspected by a good aspect" Abu Bakr ON NATIVITIES

Mother Theresa 9th House Leo Venus Whole Signs chart attached note Jupiter in Libra on MC in good aspect with Venus by sextile :smile:

tsmall
01-04-2013, 01:04 AM
Sciences. And once again I turn to ibn Ezra because of an utterly fascinating variance in the Hebrew and Latin texts.

Hebrew text:
the science of the Sun is the law...

Latin text (footnoted): Oddly enough the Latin has for the Sun, solis scientia sunt iudicia astrorum. ' . . . the science of the Sun is the judgment of the stars. [Rob Hand], That fits with the prophecy and prophetic dreams, mentioned above. [Meira Epstein]'...



This really caught my attention since just this week I have been pondering the joys, and these two texts seem to be more related to the Sun affiliated with the 9th than Jupiter.

Interesting that "the science of the Sun is the judgment of the stars." That fits with astrology as well, and gives it a fairly specifically divine meaning. Which again flies in the face of much religious persecution of astrology through the ages.

Moog
01-04-2013, 01:07 AM
Interesting that "the science of the Sun is the judgment of the stars." That fits with astrology as well, and gives it a fairly specifically divine meaning. Which again flies in the face of much religious persecution of astrology through the ages.

I was thinking that it sounds like astrology. Astrology is called Jyotish in India - 'the science of light'

The word ‘Jyotish’ comes from the Sanskrit language. "Jyoti" meaning light, "ish" the prefix of the Sanskrit word ‘Ishwar’ or God means ‘made of’, so Jyotish mean "Made of Light", "The Light of God" or in other words "The study of Light."

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-04-2013, 06:08 AM
Mars seems pretty universally bad in 9, has anyone found any striking examples of this?

If I use Whole Sign houses, Mars rules my Ninth from the Sixth.

A pox on all your houses!

JUPITERASC
01-04-2013, 01:30 PM
If I use Whole Sign houses, Mars rules my Ninth from the Sixth.
A pox on all your houses!
If not using Whole Sign houses, which of your natal houses is ruled by Mars? Hellenistic astrologers used Whole Signs for topics and then dynamical division to assess planetary strength :smile:

retinoid
01-04-2013, 03:15 PM
The 9th is more of a seeking of the divine through religious experience. Through contemplation of the divine through philosophy and the higher mind (more of a Plato/Socrates/Confucius way of approach). The 8th for example, would be more of a darker side of human experience toward the divine...the occult, drugs or odd or destructive experiences for realization. The 12th is a more ascetic way of approach. A dissolution of self. Well I guess each house brings you to that state eventually.

I have Rahu in the ninth house and have always been spiritual but never in the traditional sense and usually have been agnostic also Saturn rules the 9th which is in the 8th :)

Olivia
01-04-2013, 08:00 PM
Retinoid, is your 9th house ruled by Cap or Aquarius? I ask because if it's Aquarius then Saturn is what used to be called an 'imbecilic ruler' - it can't see Aquarius from Capricorn, not in traditional astrology, and not being able to see the house cusp, it can't properly rule the house.

Even if it's in Cap, there are still triplicity rulers to look at, which might be a lot more pleasant than trying to approach God through things like bankruptcy and death, traditional 8th house significations, or things like drug addiction, a traditional 12th signification.

Don't discount triplicity rulers. They may not be as 'big' as domicile rulers, but sometimes it's the little things that count. And at times, the little things are all we can do.

retinoid
01-05-2013, 12:19 PM
Retinoid, is your 9th house ruled by Cap or Aquarius? I ask because if it's Aquarius then Saturn is what used to be called an 'imbecilic ruler' - it can't see Aquarius from Capricorn, not in traditional astrology, and not being able to see the house cusp, it can't properly rule the house.

Even if it's in Cap, there are still triplicity rulers to look at, which might be a lot more pleasant than trying to approach God through things like bankruptcy and death, traditional 8th house significations, or things like drug addiction, a traditional 12th signification.

Don't discount triplicity rulers. They may not be as 'big' as domicile rulers, but sometimes it's the little things that count. And at times, the little things are all we can do.

Hello my 9th is Aquarius. I know the 8th and 12th are bad in traditional (and vedic) astrology, but they are also the 'moksha'/enlightenment houses of the natal chart :)

Olivia
01-05-2013, 06:13 PM
Hello my 9th is Aquarius. I know the 8th and 12th are bad in traditional (and vedic) astrology, but they are also the 'moksha'/enlightenment houses of the natal chart :)

I can't speak to jyotish, but in traditional western you don't find much good in 8 or 12, except for a few really odd things like raising horses. They aren't considered as houses of enlightenment. 8, 12, 6, and even 2 are cadent to the ascendant - they can't be enlightened.

People somewhat made peace with 2 because it represents arising from the underworld. 8 represents falling into it - the inertia drives the planet to the descendant, or point of death.

Digression aside, Jupiter and Mercury are other candidates for 9 rulership. Since Jupiter probably doesn't see 9 if it's in opposition to Saturn - what does Mercury look like in your chart? Does it aspect the 9th cusp by sign (conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, trine)?

tsmall
01-05-2013, 11:09 PM
Jupiter and Mercury are other candidates for 9 rulership.

Triplicity rulers? Or somthing else?

Olivia
01-05-2013, 11:25 PM
Triplicity rulers? Or somthing else?

Triplicity rulers.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-06-2013, 05:39 AM
Let's do a bit of an exercise here with the Ninth house and doing a delineation based off of it. This is a chart of a friend of mine whose views on things I know very well.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=78&pictureid=5076

So, give it a go. I uploaded it in Regiomontanous houses because that's what I usually use (Medieval astrology! Heck yeah!!!) if you use a different house system please let us know what system you're looking at, but I believe the 9th house stays the same regardless of system used in this example, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Anyway, go ahead and give your interpretations and we'll talk about them as we go along.

Olivia
01-06-2013, 10:55 PM
So, give it a go. I uploaded it in Regiomontanous houses because that's what I usually use (Medieval astrology! Heck yeah!!!) if you use a different house system please let us know what system you're looking at, but I believe the 9th house stays the same regardless of system used in this example, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Anyway, go ahead and give your interpretations and we'll talk about them as we go along.

Alchabitius houses.

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Saturn rules 9 and is also the second triplicity ruler of 9 in a day chart, which zeroes it in further on that's what we need to look at. Saturn in Libra can see Aquarius, so it's not imbecilic.

Saturn in Libra square Venus in Cancer is weirdly nasty - Venus rules Libra, Saturn is exalted there, but is detrimented in Cancer. That's a longer discussion than I can put together just now though, but let's call it 'issues' for the moment.

Venus rules both 5 and 12, 12 making me think of the whole opiate/escapist/for people who don't want to deal with reality thing. Possibly religion as a mental prison (Merc in 12, out-of-sect triplicity ruler of 9, squaring it by sign).

Really curious as to how that Sun/Mars/ASC/Rigel thing is working out. 'If I were emperor of the world....?"

I'll edit to add that if religion is the opiate, science is the antidote, but that's a gimme - Saturn's ruling 8, 9, and 10, 9 rules sciences, and Libra-Aquarius likes it orderly, if you please. Not scientism, he's not that dumb, but science is a solace and gives some sense and meaning to the world.

tsmall
01-07-2013, 02:27 AM
Alchabitius houses.

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Saturn rules 9 and is also the second triplicity ruler of 9 in a day chart, which zeroes it in further on that's what we need to look at. Saturn in Libra can see Aquarius, so it's not imbecilic.

Saturn in Libra square Venus in Cancer is weirdly nasty - Venus rules Libra, Saturn is exalted there, but is detrimented in Cancer. That's a longer discussion than I can put together just now though, but let's call it 'issues' for the moment.

Venus rules both 5 and 12, 12 making me think of the whole opiate/escapist/for people who don't want to deal with reality thing. Possibly religion as a mental prison (Merc in 12, out-of-sect triplicity ruler of 9, squaring it by sign).

Really curious as to how that Sun/Mars/ASC/Rigel thing is working out. 'If I were emperor of the world....?"

I use whole signs, which in this case doesn't change much...except the Plaicdus houses show that the 5th is intercepted. Does that then bring us back to Mercury in the 12th? Mostly I've been looking at dynamic houses for strength, but whole signs for topics...

I'm seeing that Mars/Sun thing too. The only other person I've ever know with Mars that close to the Sun (by 4') is very, very self absorbed. To the point where no one else really matters. That was a conjunction in Pisces, and I don't know the ASC (so no sect, or even houses, either) nor how much that would affect the addiction that went along with it...but the "if only I ruled the world" makes a great deal of sense.

I have to admit to chasing my own tail a bit with this one (but we newbies get to do that, right? :smile:) Saturn is L9 (and Olivia, if you have a good definition of imbecilic I would appreciate it. I have a feeling what I am envisioning based on the word definition might not be what is meant) and we find him retrograde in the 5th, the in sect malefic, in a masculine sign. Saturn in the 5th strikes me as not so pleasant to start with, and then the square to Venus. It's like Venus wants to give Saturn something, but Saturn is saying oh, heck no, and sending it back.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and let my friend Kai come tell me where I messed up. :andy:

Could it be that this person was raised in a fairly religious, strict house, and so rebelled against it?

Olivia
01-07-2013, 02:34 AM
Imbecilic - the term sometimes applied to a disjunct house ruler.

surrealsuburb123
01-07-2013, 02:41 AM
How does having Moon in the 9th house (natally) show its effects?

Olivia
01-07-2013, 03:49 AM
How does having Moon in the 9th house (natally) show its effects?

I hate to waffle on you, but what shape is the moon in? Ibn Ezra would say that it's somewhat harmful to religion, as the moon joys in 3, the opposite house to 9, but in Nativities and Revolutions he's assuming you already know about things like sect, dignity, aspects, etc., so don't take that as a hard and fast rule.

Generally speaking, if well-posited, it's moderately good for religion and travel, if ill-posited, then not good for those things.

Sorry for such a generic answer.

retinoid
01-07-2013, 03:57 AM
I can't speak to jyotish, but in traditional western you don't find much good in 8 or 12, except for a few really odd things like raising horses. They aren't considered as houses of enlightenment. 8, 12, 6, and even 2 are cadent to the ascendant - they can't be enlightened.

People somewhat made peace with 2 because it represents arising from the underworld. 8 represents falling into it - the inertia drives the planet to the descendant, or point of death.

Digression aside, Jupiter and Mercury are other candidates for 9 rulership. Since Jupiter probably doesn't see 9 if it's in opposition to Saturn - what does Mercury look like in your chart? Does it aspect the 9th cusp by sign (conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, trine)?

You don't find much good about the 8th and 12th in Jyotish either, except they are the moksha houses. Obviously being very influenced by Hinduism, vedic astrology has a lot to do with freedom from the cycle of rebirth. So the hardest houses also bring you to freedom. I also have 3 planets in the 6th, the other bad house :)

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-07-2013, 05:40 AM
Thank you guys for the responses, I might do another of someone not so personal to me next time, but I don't know for sure yet. I guess I'll first go over how I was looking at the chart and that'll pretty much explain everything from there.

First I compared Jupiter's and Saturn's placements. Jupiter is falling off the angle in a cadent house, whereas Saturn is in a succeedant sign moving towards the IC. This is a pretty good hint at the battle of faith vs skepticism in someone's life. Jupiter is well dignified, but retrograde and heavily afflicted by an opposition from Mars in the Sign of Jupiter's detriment which injures Jupiter further. This is a good indication of how the native generally sees religion or faith: something that is aggressive, combative, warlike, and often violent.

Saturn, on the other hand, fairs better in being a house closer to an angle, it's a good house that aspects the ascendant. It's sort of ****** in that it's being injured by its ruler, Venus, but being the exaltation ruler Saturn can handle it and Saturn turns the tables on Venus here by striking her with a ray. I don't think these effects materialize within the context of the Ninth house, so I'm going to skip over these.

The Ninth house itself is ruled by Saturn from the Fifth house, which someone pointed out to me can show sciences being a past time for the native which is definitely true.

So, let's talk a bit about what this native believes. He's very science focused and is an atheist, however he understands science's shortcomings when it comes to many subjects. He understands that science can only examine the natural world, but he doesn't doubt religion on a scientific level (meaning; he understands that science couldn't prove god), but he disagrees with it on a logical basis (meaning; he thinks it's illogical for the god of a mainstream religion to exist). When it comes to the existence of supernatural things, he's pretty open to the idea of them. Like when it comes to astrology, he's interested in it and is willing to sort of listen to what it says, but he doesn't take it to heart. So I guess we'll label him an open minded skeptic.

I'll edit to add that if religion is the opiate, science is the antidote, but that's a gimme - Saturn's ruling 8, 9, and 10, 9 rules sciences, and Libra-Aquarius likes it orderly, if you please. Not scientism, he's not that dumb, but science is a solace and gives some sense and meaning to the world.

Yes, yes, yes. This is definitely an attitude that the native has.

Could it be that this person was raised in a fairly religious, strict house, and so rebelled against it?

I honestly don't remember if he's mentioned this to me before. I'll ask.

Okay, he got back to me and said: "I WAS raised in a very religious household. I haven't "come out" as it were as an athiest to my family (don't see the point in my grandmother getting all worked up over it), but in my own mind and soul, yeah, rebelled pretty hard and stand pretty firmly on the other side of the fence."
Experiences love in waves, possibly celibate, distinct patterns in terms of romance.

This is interesting. He's older and has had very few stable relationships.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-07-2013, 06:24 AM
Sorry, I didn't catch on to my typo until too late. I meant to say either that he "hasn't had many stable relationships" or that he "has had very few stable relationships", but I mixed them together and came up with "hasn't had very few"...

tsmall
01-07-2013, 12:38 PM
Okay, he got back to me and said: "I WAS raised in a very religious household. I haven't "come out" as it were as an athiest to my family (don't see the point in my grandmother getting all worked up over it), but in my own mind and soul, yeah, rebelled pretty hard and stand pretty firmly on the other side of the fence."




It probably doesn't mean anything, but I think it's interesting that he specifically mentioned his grandmother. Would that be his maternal grandmother, I wonder, since the 5th is the 10th from the 10th?

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-07-2013, 09:44 PM
Yes, it's his maternal grandmother.

Cypocryphy
03-14-2013, 01:22 AM
for anything related to the 9th. Religion, dreams, travel, planets in, planets ruling. I'm probably forgetting something...

Yeah! The law. :lol:

fullmoonlibra
03-14-2013, 02:10 AM
Thanks for this thread!
I was seeking for this kind of broad explanation about the 9th house to understand myself more.

I have my Sun (taurus) conjunct north node (aries) in this house, so there is still so much to know about the different facets of the 9th house that can explain me more what I can expect from my future.

Ruler is mars and is in 5th house.
Sounds fun ;)
Btw: Mars is exalted and has nice trines (also to Sun in 9), but is focal point of T square.
So don't know if it's rather good or bad

dr. farr
03-14-2013, 05:18 AM
I too have Sun (and, additionally Mercury) in Taurus in the 9th house of my natal chart.

byjove
03-14-2013, 12:45 PM
Anyone want to travel?

'Long distance travel over water' - does that interpretation need any adjustment today? What if you live in the middle of a continent and you have personal planets in the 9th house, will you be looking around for water? :lol: Is it fair to say perhaps interpret today as long-distance? I really think this needs looked at, as in the modern age, especially in wealthier nations, long-distance travel has becomes as common as short-distance travel.

One of my favourite interpretations of 9th personal planets is having a distinct disinterest in one's native culture. I can't subscribe to that enough. I swear I'm allergic to my native culture. The 'known quantity' yuck! :tongue:

Kaiousei no Senshi
03-14-2013, 08:15 PM
There are a couple of variations to what specifically qualifies as Ninth house travel vs Third house travel, the best advice I could give is just to use common sense to differentiate. Here in the United States, I would consider out of state travel to be "long distance" travel.

Though, I would also consider travel that is outside of someone's comfort zone to be Ninth house travel as well. The idea behind the Third house and its journeys and peoples is a sense of familiarity, whereas the Ninth has foreign experiences. I would consider a trip to the grocery store to be a Third house affair, as I've been there and make the trip quite often, but a trip to a city forty-five minutes away that I've never been to before or have only passed through would be Ninth house.

Fortunately, these distinctions don't come up very often.

tsmall
03-15-2013, 01:15 AM
Yeah! The law. :lol:


ooops? Philosophy, higher education, wisdom....

tsmall
03-15-2013, 01:24 AM
Thanks for this thread!
I was seeking for this kind of broad explanation about the 9th house to understand myself more.

I have my Sun (taurus) conjunct north node (aries) in this house, so there is still so much to know about the different facets of the 9th house that can explain me more what I can expect from my future.

Ruler is mars and is in 5th house.
Sounds fun ;)
Btw: Mars is exalted and has nice trines (also to Sun in 9), but is focal point of T square.
So don't know if it's rather good or bad

This is kind of neat. Is your Sun in the 9th sign from the ASC? The Sun joys in the 9th. I assume you were born near the full Moon, but if the Moon was in Libra it would have been waning? If you had Sun in Taurus and Moon in Scorpio you'd have both planets in joy. Also, considering that the Sun is so close to the North Node, were you by chance born just after an eclipse?

JUPITERASC
03-15-2013, 01:34 AM
ooops? Philosophy, higher education, wisdom....
96 WORD QUOTE:smile:

'….Long distance travel, voyages, journeys to unfamiliar environments.

Overseas, foreign countries and distant places.

Foreigners, pilgrims, explorers.


Places and situations where we seek guidance and wisdom from others. Where we reach out into the unknown in search of widening our knowledge and understanding


Beliefs; the desire to unite with something greater than oneself.


Religion and clergy of any kind. Affairs of the church.


Books, learning, wisdom, scholarships, university, and all forms of higher education.

Ramesey notes: "all manner of students, such as astrologers, physitians, lawyers, and all students of other good learning altogether" ([AR], bk2. p.108)...' source: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html

Helle
03-18-2013, 05:02 PM
JupiterAsc - Thanks for the link to Vettius Valens!
Awesome : )

JUPITERASC
03-19-2013, 12:24 AM
JupiterAsc - Thanks for the link to Vettius Valens!
Awesome : )
Helle - tsmall has a thread "HELLENISTIC DELINEATION" at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920 :smile:
....With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about delineating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?

may28gemini
04-18-2013, 11:38 AM
My Gemini stellium of Sun, Mercury, and Venus are in the 9th so the ruler of my 9th sits in my 9th. My Jupiter AC trines my Sun (yay!) so I'm very connected with Jupiter and the 9th house. I believe the 9th to a very auspicious house because if the native is positive and optimistic, they can change their surroundings with their good cheer which in turn creates "good luck."

Not only do I believe that I'm really lucky, I enjoy blissful long travels and excelled in higher education. Before I turned 25, I received my Master's in Mass Communication. I also loved teaching and enjoy meeting new people from different places. Whenever I travelled, I make friends easily and if I'm ever in a bind, strangers always offer to help me out. I've also been known to get up and go places and not tell anyone so whenever my friends and family contact me, they'll first ask, "Where are you?"

eternalautumn
09-16-2013, 07:54 PM
The Ninth House and Religion (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66405)

JUPITERASC
09-16-2013, 08:17 PM
JupiterAsc - Thanks for the link to Vettius Valens!
Awesome : )
Another useful link to Hellenistic material for you Helle

LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY
PAULUS ALEXANDRINUS AND OLYMPIODORUS :smile:

TRANSLATED BY DORIAN GREENBAUM - ARHAT http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/PO%20a.pdf

waybread
09-16-2013, 08:47 PM
JA, thanks for the link.

A way that I find easiest to conceptualize the various phenomena attributed to the 9th house is that it deals with expanding horizons. One can do this literally through "journeys over water;" as well as mentally. Higher education, published works of enduring value, philosophy, theology, and the law as a body of knowledge are all ways that we expand our mental horizons. (Litigation is a 7th house matter; and day-to-day communication as well as short-distance travel belong to the third house.)

We don't think so much today about prophecy or prophetic dreams, but these were associated with Apollo, the god of the 9th house to the Hellenists.

Clinton Soule
09-16-2013, 09:03 PM
In the past few days I've been reviewing Bonatus data and found this consideration to be very interesting:

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

C:\DOCUME~1\all\LOCALS~1\Temp\AnimaAstrologiae.zip


110. The 110th is, To consider in Nativities, whether Scorpio ascends? For such a Native is never like to get any great preferment in the Roman Church: because Cancer (the Exaltations of Clerks (priests, parsons, &c., &c), will then be in the Ninth House, which signifies the Church, and Jupiter is an enemy to Mars, who is Lord of the Ascendant.


Now this is obvious to me, but I want other's opinions, as the Church, a Temple, the ceremonial grounds or structures of any aboriginal culture are 9th house and the 9th is Long Distance travel, would you say one may apply this consideration to Travel whether of the nativity or in a horary?

I mean can yoy see that what Bonatti is saying about a nativity would apply as well in horary?

Maybe Electionals?:cool:

And if you astro brethren think I over bombard readers on Biblical scriptures you need to read for he may out do me on this:

Astrologia Restaurata (Astrology Restored)
by William Ramesey

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rev_ram.html

When I get to the chapters on 9th house elections I'll let the Forum hear his words!:biggrin:
.

may28gemini
10-08-2013, 11:58 AM
I should have posted my chart. The ruler of my 9th is Mercury and sits in my 9th. I'm an atheist. I was not brought up in strict religious households but my parents and grandmother believed in a higher power of "god." I was raised on and off by my parents but up to 6 years old, I largely raised by my maternal grandmother (my maternal aunt-Capricorn Sun with Cap stellium and uncle- Sagittarius, Sun, Merc Mars stellium were present too) and the households shifted constantly because I was moved a lot (I had been to 6 countries by the time I was 6). In response to my grandmother's prayers for my sick brother, I said, "There is no God, only us" when I was 4. Shortly after that, he died and I was the only one awake being next to/with him. After my brother's funeral, I refused to step near or inside any sort of religious buildings. I rebelled against organized beliefs/prayers/thoughts and refused to attend any church or temple gatherings up until this day. I believe in good people everywhere, but I do not believe that goodness exists as an absolute and I know there are many wicked people out there. I believe good people do not have to be taught but are morally capable to navigate the world without need of authoritative guidance. Similarly, I also see it as the duty of good people to appeal to others' innate goodness to forge goodwill i.e. spread the word. Those who are good rarely operate in groups and the evil ones are the those who operate in masses. I see religion largely as wicked and corrupt.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=939&pictureid=5476

Marius Cojoc
10-12-2013, 09:23 PM
msg deleted

poyi
10-12-2013, 09:36 PM
I should have posted my chart. The ruler of my 9th is Mercury and sits in my 9th. I'm an atheist. I was not brought up in strict religious households but my parents and grandmother believed in a higher power of "god." I was raised on and off by my parents but up to 6 years old, I largely raised by my maternal grandmother (my maternal aunt-Capricorn Sun with Cap stellium and uncle- Sagittarius, Sun, Merc Mars stellium were present too) and the households shifted constantly because I was moved a lot (I had been to 6 countries by the time I was 6). In response to my grandmother's prayers for my sick brother, I said, "There is no God, only us" when I was 4. Shortly after that, he died and I was the only one awake being next to/with him. After my brother's funeral, I refused to step near or inside any sort of religious buildings. I rebelled against organized beliefs/prayers/thoughts and refused to attend any church or temple gatherings up until this day. I believe in good people everywhere, but I do not believe that goodness exists as an absolute and I know there are many wicked people out there. I believe good people do not have to be taught but are morally capable to navigate the world without need of authoritative guidance. Similarly, I also see it as the duty of good people to appeal to others' innate goodness to forge goodwill i.e. spread the word. Those who are good rarely operate in groups and the evil ones are the those who operate in masses. I see religion largely as wicked and corrupt.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=939&pictureid=5476

I agree with your most of your views. I don't think people needs to follow a particular religion to have good moral standard. I surly don't see any absolute standard that I can 100% respect with their behaviors and the way they treat people.

But I do believe in God I see the stars and life God created, I have no word to deny the existence. There are plenty more things we can doubt about why God didn't bless and protect us through hardship or removed sin and sufferings all together. These are the questions to be answered through a life time or many life times of self exploration.

tsmall
10-13-2013, 03:10 AM
Greetings,

Robert Schmidt suggested that the houses inherit their meanings from the primary motion (diurnal) and secondary motion (zodiacal) of Helios. The planets from the 9th place are heading to the 10th place by zodiacal motion, just to be pull back by the diurnal motion.

When you check a place you must see it in terms of a triade. If we check the 9th, is essential to check also the 10th and the 11th. For example, the 11th will show you the impuls for an action, the 10th the action and the 9th the distribution of that action.

Serapio for example tell us that the 9th is the place of prepollence by force which means that planets in the 9th have a superior power in the chart. This was also found by Michel Gauquelin in its astrological statistics. It is well known that the 9th is Helios joy. This is a benefic place because it makes a configuration with life (Helm of life-1th place) and fortune (Good Fortune-5th place) by trigonal relationship. The trigonal ray is the most benefic one, because it beholds and sustain, phenomenon which the other rays can't do it.

Hello Marius, welcome to the forum. :smile:

I'd like to preface my remarks by saying that I am no where near as well read as you are. I am most interested in the bolded part of your post as this ties into a conversation I have been having with a friend regarding cadent planets. Would you be willing to elaborate? I am most intrigued by the idea that the 9th "is the place of prepollence by force."

One of the ideas this friend has been exploring is that our traditional assumptions that cadent planets lack the ablility to act/create events may be incorrect. I believe Schmidt describes two ways to define what were later considered cadent planets--that is in a decline, which appears to be related to whole sign houses and applies to planets in the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th signs from the horoscope; and not goaded, which is what we in the later dynamic house division systems consider to be cadent (as in more than 5* past an angle via diurnal motion.)

I am not as well versed in languages as I would like to be, but I believe that the "cadent places" are called in Greek apoklima. A brief search online (I know, the internet is not always the most useful source of information unless one knows what one is looking for) brings about the definition of apoklima as being "falling", but one interesting source found on Google Books is A Brief History of Ancient Astrology by Roger Beck. In it, there is a quoted passage that references Antiochus as describing only two houses as apoklima--the 6th and the 12th, both called Daemon. This may well be why we associate those two places with difficulties and suffering. Those two places are also the joys of the malefics.

One thing that I personally think may be missing in later translations or beliefs surrounding cadent houses is that a planet is angular, then succedent, then cadent, and that this concept developed because of the division of the chart into quadrants. What if we were to start with the house cadent to the pivot, and look at the chart via zodiacal motion? We would then arrive at 12/1/2, 3/4/5 and so on.

One of the definitions of the English word cadence is the beat, time, or measure of rhythmical motion or activity...and if we consider the word succeed as the root of succeedent, we can infer that this house will show the results of what was started with the cadent and then became pivotal (angular.)

The idea under discussion is that things that fall often do so with great speed due to gravity. This could mean that matters that involve cadent planets happen quickly, and since the planet is "falling" are completely out of the control of the planet. It would be terribly difficult to control a "falling" and the landing isn't always going to be comfortable. As woud be shown by the condition of the cadent planet, including it's aspects to the horoscope. The 9th, as you point out, regards the ASC by trine, and the 3rd regards by square. The 6th and 12th are averse, and it is those houses that are most problematic since planets therein cannot reference the helm.

And yes, after re-reading your post I realize that my postulation is exactly backwards from yours...as in I'm looking 9/10/11 via zodiacal motion and you stated 11/10/9 via diurnal motion.

waybread
10-13-2013, 05:58 AM
A good book on houses in traditional astrology is Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

In Hellenistic astrology, so far as I can make out, the angles are very important. So we get the terms angular, succedant, and cadent. One idea was of houses "falling away" from an angle. I am a little fuzzy on how this worked out, because it doesn't (to me) seem to work the same way for each quadrant; and then some houses seem to have mitigating factors. We can imagine 10th angular, 11th, succedant, and 12th cadent. Their word for angles translates as "hinges". But the 9th was pretty much always fortunate. We also add-in the idea of houses (or signs, really) "beholding" the first house/sign, or not.

Meanings of houses determined by their position in the horoscope get a bit muddied by the actual thematic or content meanings of the houses. The 9th was the house of God or "the god", meaning Apollo. Apollo was not originally a sun-god but became so over time. He was originally a god of prophecy, perhaps explaining why prophecy and theology are 9th house matters. But from Apollo as the god of the 9th house in his later meaning as sun-god, we get the sun in its joy in the 9th.

Hellenists today seem not to care much for Manilius, Astronomica, but his material on house joys pretty much agrees with traditional practice. Then the 3rd house is cadent, but as the "house of the goddess" or moon (Selene, Artemis, &c)

A lot of the thematic content of houses seems to come from ancient Egyptian religion.

Marius Cojoc
10-13-2013, 10:27 AM
msg delted

may28gemini
10-13-2013, 01:39 PM
I agree with your most of your views. I don't think people needs to follow a particular religion to have good moral standard. I surly don't see any absolute standard that I can 100% respect with their behaviors and the way they treat people.

But I do believe in God I see the stars and life God created, I have no word to deny the existence. There are plenty more things we can doubt about why God didn't bless and protect us through hardship or removed sin and sufferings all together. These are the questions to be answered through a life time or many life times of self exploration.

What I didn't mention earlier was that I was sent to several Catholic schools as a youngster and it never bode well for me... I was often punished for "talking back" and "asking too many questions."

I do think the 9th house is the house of God and higher morality/principle, but I see it as a bit more general to show the person's belief system depending on what planets are in the house and how it aspects to other planets.

In my particular case, I have rational Gemini Mercury eclipsing Venus and Sun. Mercury squares both Jupiter and Saturn which are a strong markers for a skeptic. My Sun joys in 9th which trines Jupiter and Saturn, so yes, it's safe to say my ego is actually very well rooted in higher faith, but I cannot say it's in God or anything particularly spiritual. Rather, I have more of a firm hold on the abilities of what Man is capable of. I do believe the Golden Age can exist again, but not in my lifetime or anytime soon (maybe in a few thousand years? who knows... I won't be around). At any rate, my mixture is a strange one- a bit schismatic (if you will) as I am a skeptic but hold a high degree of faith and optimism.

In general, it is unlikely that my high powered Gemini Mercury would follow anything blindly and not ask questions. And although I am an atheist, I do believe that religion (and even organized religion) can offer great comfort to others but that decision must belong to the individual to choose for themselves and reign in the consequences of (the cost/benefits) what group think can do. The appeal of religion is masses- sheer number and serves as a constant reminder that "you are not alone," and "we are all in this together."

I don't quite grasp collective anything as a concept, and even worse, I condemn it when in action because 1. as I was growing up, I was alone. Whatever troubles and insecurities I had felt in the world, I became aware very early on that I was on my own and just how fragile security really is 2. Sure, I love socializing with others and I love joking around and have friends. Although I can have a great mental, emotional, physical, etc. connection with others, I am still myself and other people are, well, others. We're all individuals and separate.

Nonetheless, the collective sort of mentality is quite powerful and can sway many to do wicked and corrupted things (precisely how totalitarianism works). I am just not one to prescribe to what others prescribe, as a personal principle.

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 02:41 PM
I do think the 9th house is the house of God and higher morality/principle, but I see it as a bit more general to show the person's belief system depending on what planets are in the house and how it aspects to other planets.
Over the centuries, original manuscripts were copied by scribes, translated, re-copied from one language to another - Latin, Greek, Persian - to name a few and unsurprisingly, information got corrupted as BobZemco has previously reminded us regarding the 9th house :smile:
According to traditional astrology the ninth house rules religion and beliefs of a higher order. That's a corrupted view.

We must follow Marcus Aurelius in Meditations Book 10...
This thing, what is it in itself, in its own constitution? What is its substance and material? And what its causal nature (or form)? And what is it doing in the world? And how long does it subsist?

The 9th House is Travel... as it relates to Wisdom & Knowledge, and Religion would be a sub-set of that, as would Ideology (which would include Philosophical and Political Beliefs), since both stem from Wisdom & Knowledge.

You follow?

Let's go back 9,000 years to circa 7000 BCE.

A Sumerian king has granted someone a charter to establish a settlement as a favor perhaps for loyal service or good deeds done. As a small child, you go there with your family as part of the settlers, and when you come of age, you are tasked with Beer & Wine-making.

What do you do?

You travel (there's that word) to a city that has an edifice that functions as an astronomical observatory combination administrative offices and repository of knowledge -- a library more or less (which Christian archeologists crow-barred into a "temple") -- where a guy called a "priest" (as translated by Christian archeologists) will instruct you in the knowledge you seek.

Perhaps you don't need instruction.....perhaps as a sheep or goat herder, you have issues with selective breeding...you're trying to breed a separate stock of white sheep, black sheep, and spotted sheep....but having some problems doing so. You'd travel (there's that word again) to a city or region where there was a "temple" with a "priest" who would instruct you on animal husbandry.

And if not on animal husbandry, then irrigation, or medicine, or surgery, or farming or agriculture, or writing, or astronomy, or math or some other science, or some form of engineering like ship-building, building construction or mining.

That...is how it was done for thousands of years.

When the Greeks finally emerged, what did the Greeks do?

The Greeks all traveled (there's that word again) to Egypt to study and learn.

You know Solon? Of course not, he's been dead for thousands of years, but he left "Greece" as a boy to travel (there's that word again) to Egypt, to study and learn. Later, he returned to Egypt specifically to the "temple" at Sais, where the curator of knowledge -- a "priest" -- told him, "You people have no history because certain perturbations in the Earth's cycle [meaning Earth's orbit] cause cataclysms."

All of the "great" "Greek" philosophers and "mathematicians" traveled (TTWA)to Egypt to study....except one.....Aristotle.

Aristotle and his idiotic beliefs caused more damage to Humanity than any other person, with the exception of John the Bishop of Rome. If it wasn't for those two morons, we'd have landed on the Moon 500 years ago.

The whole point of this, is that concepts and ideas evolve over time.

Originally, everyone, including the Hebrews were polytheists. You can see that in elohim...the 'im' suffix indicates plural. Like all other cultures and civilizations -- at least those in the Mesopotamian region -- the Hebrews gravitate towards henotheism --- the elevation of a 'god' over a group of gods. The Hebrews worshiped the Ugaritic Pantheon and ultimately recognized Yahweh as supreme. Then later, as the idea of a 'national god' arises, the Hebrews become monaltrists ---- worshiping one god to the exclusion of all other gods....and there are other gods (at least according to the Hebrews). With the rise of Islam, the Hebrews eventually become monotheists about 1,300 year ago circa 700 CE or so. The Moors in Spain had an huge influence on Hebrew theology and the conversion to monotheism.

Other concepts and ideas parallel those developments.

Why does Yahweh murder everyone in cold blood?

Because Yahweh has no choice --- there is no After-life....there is no Heaven.....there is no Hell.

If Yahweh wants to reward you, then he must do that in the "Here & Now," because once you die, Yahweh is powerless to do anything. Likewise, if Yahweh wants to punish you, he must also do that in the "Here & Now" because once you're dead and gone, Yahweh is powerless to punish you.

It is the "Greeks" who invent/create Hell based on their misunderstanding of ancient texts, and with extremely heavy influence on Hebrew culture, the Hebrews eventually adopt a concept of an After-life. In fact, "Greek" culture was so pervasive, that the Septuagint was written in the Greek language, because the overwhelming vast majority of Hebrews spoke Greek, and not [Classical Biblical] Hebrew.

And then, too, theological conflicts develop over the same period.

If you obey Yahweh and keep his covenant, then you will be rewarded.

What happens in Reality™?

In Reality™ the people who obey Yahweh suffer incredible misfortunes and are repeatedly "punished" with disease, sorrow, loss of wealth or material possessions and so on, while those who blatantly disobey Yahweh are handsomely and richly rewarded, suffering nothing at all.

Nowhere is that more clear than with King Manasseh, who was (apparently) the most wicked king in Hebrew history, but who suffered nothing, was enriched and rewarded with great prosperity and died peacefully in his sleep at a ripe old age.

Contrast that with King Josiah -- alleged to be the most righteous king in Hebrew history -- who is slain in battle against the Egyptians; his body drug about and paraded around; the Hebrew army is totally annihilated; and Jerusalem is sacked and the Temple is "violated."

To add insult to injury, not long after that, the Kingdom of Judah is over-run; Jerusalem is destroyed; the Temple is destroyed; and the Hebrews are exiled and taken away as slaves.

How does one explain that theologically?

The Hebrews cannot, so the end up re-writing huge sections of their texts to reflect changes in theology.

And it doesn't end there. By the time the days of the Latter Prophets come to be, how do you please Yahweh? Keeping the covenants? Nope. Keeping the Commandments? Nope. You please Yahweh through Social Justice --- taking care of the elderly, the infirm, the widows, the orphans and such.

And the most amazing thing is that if the Kingdom of Israel is not destroyed, then the "Bible" as you all know it never exists.....in fact, it's unlikely Christianity would even exist.

You have two totally separate different religious traditions evolving. One under the Mosaic Priesthood --- the actual blood-descendants of X-Moses --- in the Kingdom of Israel, and then one under the Aaronid Priesthood -- the blood descendants of Aaron -- in the Kingdom of Judah.

When the Kingdom of Israel is destroyed and the Israelites exiled, the intelligentsia flees to Jerusalem in the Kingdom of Judah.

How do you resolve this problem of two totally separate religious traditions?

Create a national unity document --- that's what Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are....they're a set, a trilogy, written together to merge the two different religious traditions of the North and South.

One group --- the Aaronid Priesthood --- is not happy with this arrangement, and eventually they massacre the Mosaic priests, killing all of them.....except one who escapes the massacre.

Then the Aaronid Priests, well, Jeremiah actually, forges a new document you all know as Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy represents an wholesale change in theology --- altars are banned; all temples except for The Temple (at Jerusalem) are banned; all sacrifices are banned, except those in the The Temple; the style and type of sacrifices, including the entire ritual of sacrifice is changed, and so on.

For the next 1,000 years -- at least in the Western World --- nothing changes as one is still required to travel (TTWA) to a "religious" facility to gain knowledge and receive instruction.

Over that same time, it also becomes vogue to travel (TTWA) on a pilgrimage to a religious facility of some sort, and so it's easy to see how religion came to be associated with the 9th House.

This becomes ingrained in society even after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. If you want to be educated, or to learn, you must travel (TTWA) to a monastery or abbey to receive instruction from religious personnel. The idea of education sponsored or provided through the clergy also arises in Islam, and it continues in Christianity even after the Great Schism between the Papacy and the Orthodox.

Education at monasteries and abbeys evolves into education at religious-based universities run by clergy, and even after the Reformation it continues, only now you have Catholic universities and Protestant universities.

Government-based secular learning institutions, such as public schools are a very recent development.

No doubt, there's a relationship between travel and religion and the acquisition of knowledge and wisdom and learning. They are for the most part inextricably linked.

You can blame the Arabs, Persians and Latins for over-emphasizing the 9th House in the context of religion, and then the later post-Reformation crowd who effectively carved it into stone.

may28gemini
10-13-2013, 09:16 PM
HA! Well I do travel quite a bit... and it's not for pleasure or work. It's really just part of my life and I love meeting new people from all sorts of areas.

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 09:51 PM
Sun and Mercury in the 9th here...

Not sure I have anything to add to this....
Traveled much and/or lived abroad? :smile:

poyi
10-13-2013, 10:05 PM
Actually I always feel that my Jupiter in Sagittarius at IC conjunct, and conjunct/parallel South node are so dominating (traditional planets and point alone), I simply never paid much attention on the 9th house. My 9th house is Taurus, Venus is in Libra 1st house with Placidus and 2nd in whole sign housing. Venus trine 5th house Moon in Capricorn, square by Neptune in Sagittarius from 4th house. 4th house ruled by Jupiter at IC.

I am very open minded about religion. At the same time I also know that whatever religion you believing in, does not guarantee true rebirth/transformation of your soul. I often see majority of the religious people not truly living their life as the example of their faith. Religion is men made. But the Spring of Life, the forever flowing water is totally different thing.

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 10:20 PM
No and no actually.
My chart says that I should find luck in traveling/foreign lands though.
Interesting :smile:
Sun and Mercury in the 9th here...

So Sun and Mercury rule which natal houses ?

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 10:51 PM
The Sun rules my 1st and 2nd. Mercury rules my 3rd.

Pisces is the sign of my ninth house cusp.
Mercury rules two houses - unless the particular house system you prefer has intercepted houses

3rd signifies amongst other significations, siblings and communications and those may link with travel

Pisces is the traditional home of Jupiter
so the house and sign location of Jupiter
are connections to your 9th significations.

Jupiter may rule your 5th house if that's Sagittarius
and the significations of fifth may connect to travel :smile:

poyi
10-13-2013, 11:05 PM
For myself, living aboard and lived with foreigners during uni, for sure it was directly due to Jupiter at IC in Sagittarius. What about Venus ruling 9th in the 1st or 2nd house suppose to be?

I always think it has the meaning of earning income from foreign land. And possibly moral standard more like foreigner than my countryman? Oh funny thing, not often people can tell where I come from. I have a lot of westerner features that might be Venus ruler of 9th being placed in 1st house.

TamaraL
10-13-2013, 11:09 PM
Key Words:


NINE:

RELIGION, SCIENCE, HIGHER EDUCATION, DIPLOMAS, CEREMONIES, THE LAW, LEGAL PROCEDURES, TRAVEL, DREAMS OF THE FUTURE, INSURANCE, PUBLISHING, INLAWS, GRANDCHILDREN

I have my Sun in the 9th House(9,53' Pisces). I was wondering if I will live a big part of my life away from my country.Can that info be indicated from a natal chart.Thank you in advance.
:)

TamaraL
10-13-2013, 11:17 PM
Interesting. So could a 5th house Moon in Saggitarius (Jupiter) in combination with Pisces Sun on the 9th house mean longs journeys?

I have lived abroad but only briefly for studies...

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 11:21 PM
I have my Sun in the 9th House(9,53' Pisces). I was wondering if I will live a big part of my life away from my country.Can that info be indicated from a natal chart.Thank you in advance.
:)
The natal chart shows the promise
IF the time of birth is accurate
THEN this information is shown there

Another way to find an answer is to ask an Horary question on the matter http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42

Important to read the Horary rules for asking a question
so that you obtain the best Horary answer possible http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/faq.php?faq=horary#faq_horary_astrology_boards :smile:

waybread
10-13-2013, 11:25 PM
Marius, your English is pretty advanced-- and at the level of conveying some advanced concepts.

There is a lot in your post. Perhaps we could start with the Hermes and Nechepso traditions? My real interest here is in the origins of horoscopic astrology. Can you say more about where or how you traced these two traditions? Do you see a separate one for Petosiris, or is he blended into one or both of the others?

Clinton Soule
10-13-2013, 11:29 PM
All of us are influenced by what authors we have read, and for the longest time I have thought because of my horary training that the 9th is Travel, Religion, Higher Learning, Universities, Church, Law, and Libraries, Ect...

But Deb Houlding lists in her horary rulership, the Library is 6th.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/index_list.html

I understand how literary Californian's are due to their birthday being in Virgo, and that Virgo is many times the library type!:cool:

But why does Deb Houlding base the 6th as Library and not the 9th?:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:

.

poyi
10-13-2013, 11:31 PM
All of us are influenced by what authors we have read, and for the longest time I have thought because of my horary training that the 9th is Travel, Religion, Higher Learning, Universities, Church, Law, and Libraries, Ect...

But Deb Houlding lists in her horary rulership, the Library is 6th.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/index_list.html

I understand how literary Californian's are due to their birthday being in Virgo, and that Virgo is many times the library type!:cool:

But why does Deb Houlding base the 6th as Library and not the 9th?:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:

.

Because Virgo is the sign for librarian and library?

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 11:31 PM
Interesting. So could a 5th house Moon in Saggitarius (Jupiter) in combination with Pisces Sun on the 9th house mean longs journeys?

I have lived abroad but only briefly for studies...
The 9th House is Travel... as it relates to Wisdom & Knowledge and living abroad for the purpose of study is clearly connected to that signification :smile:

poyi
10-13-2013, 11:42 PM
As a Virgo ascendant with active Mercury placed in 3rd, I was school librarian for a long time, as well as librarian for church for quite a few years as well. I always spend times at school or community libraries, bookshops and have the habit of collecting books at home. I actually feel rich of having books around me.

JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 11:50 PM
For myself, living aboard and lived with foreigners during uni, for sure it was directly due to Jupiter at IC in Sagittarius. What about Venus ruling 9th in the 1st or 2nd house suppose to be?

I always think it has the meaning of earning income from foreign land. And possibly moral standard more like foreigner than my countryman? Oh funny thing, not often people can tell where I come from. I have a lot of westerner features that might be Venus ruler of 9th being placed in 1st house.
Not only earning income from foreign lands
but also spending income in connection with foreign lands

Not to mention spending income in connection with learning
for example on books/courses/travel connected with learning :smile:

tsmall
10-13-2013, 11:51 PM
But why does Deb Houlding base the 6th as Library and not the 9th?:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:



Public libraries in mundane astrology. Not horary, though it could work out that way depending on the specific question.

quote from above posted link

In Mundane Astrology:
The nation's food reserves, especially grains, and the farming industry.
Those who keep public records such as libraries, book-keepers, archivists, public data-clerks.

poyi
10-13-2013, 11:58 PM
Not only earning income from foreign lands
but also spending income in connection with foreign lands

Not to mention spending income in connection with learning
for example on books/courses/travel connected with learning :smile:

I did. The whole purpose of coming to Australia was for studying nursing and migrate to Australia (the greatest escape). I spent huge amount of money for studying nursing and health promotion degrees, and spent load of money to buy, obviously English Western Astrology books from Amazon shipped from US mainly....I like online shopping and do get things shipped from oversea often. Paying off mortgage for my own home in foreign land as well.

From ancient Chinese astrology perspective, I am the person traveled to faraway land and will never return to homeland and will eventually die in foreign land, in the past that used to be a great misfortune, as you betrayed your family and your bones never return to homeland's soil, named as the Rebel one or the one who is Cursed.

TamaraL
10-13-2013, 11:59 PM
This is amazing..I can tell for sure that I know what you mean.I am collecting books my whole life..I don't know how many books I own anymore.Even in the first grade as a child I had build a house of books near my bed in order to sleep happily...

poyi
10-14-2013, 12:05 AM
This is amazing..I can tell for sure that I know what you mean.I am collecting books my whole life..I don't know how many books I own anymore.Even in the first grade as a child I had build a house of books near my bed in order to sleep happily...

...I also have books all over my apartment. I am for real admired them time to time just enjoy seeing how many they are. When I was little, I used to spent my pocket money on pretty stationary while the other girls like heels and clothes. I often feel very sad thinking about how during revolutions valuable books were burnt and lost.

If I was ever going to get rich. I would own an astrology book shop and have a huge library at home. Maybe I do have a chance to be a bookshop owner! having Gemini MC. :w00t:

tsmall
10-14-2013, 12:53 AM
...I also have books all over my apartment. I am for real admired them time to time just enjoy seeing how many they are. When I was little, I used to spent my pocket money on pretty stationary while the other girls like heels and clothes. I often feel very sad thinking about how during revolutions valuable books were burnt and lost.

If I was ever going to get rich. I would own an astrology book shop and have a huge library at home. Maybe I do have a choice to be a bookshop owner! having Gemini MC. :w00t:

Books, books and more books. I too used to dream of owning a bookstore. I had it all mapped out, what it would look like, who would come, where each cozy nook for reading would be...

To bring this back around to 9th house though, I don't think of books and the love for them to be a 9th house matter but rather a Mercury matter. Poyi, do I have your chart somewhere? I don't believe I do....

TamaraL, I'm jealous. You were wise enough to go with first name and I'm guessing last initial. I came to the forum and the first name was taken (we share one. :love:) so I went with first inital last name. I have ever wished I could change it.

Back to individual charts...they are just that. I'd be willing to stand my love of books against anyone else's. As well as the number that I currently own, the fact that I need to reduce it, and that I have done so (by the hundreds) periodically over my lifetime. For me, the ownership of books is less a 9th house issue than an 8th/2nd.

This particular thread (started by, oh, wow, me!) was to discuss all things traditionally ascribed to the 9th. For individual chart purposes, well, that would be a separate thread. I'm cool as the OP with posting those thoughts here, but would prefer to see the charts themselves in order to identify if what we think are life topics specific to each of us related to the 9th are ascribable to something else.

poyi
10-14-2013, 01:14 AM
I posted one on the Hyleg thread few days ago. Was wondering how to find Hyleg. That chart only has traditional planets and one under maygemini, her thread on horary about shooting.

I often think I should not expose my natal chart everywhere actually. I just hope that there is no weirdo stealing my birthday cause I don't know how to cover the birth data. But anyhow if someone going to use my birthday it would already be a problem after so many chart postings! :D is too late now!!

waybread
10-14-2013, 04:33 AM
The 9th rules books in the sense of great works of literature that expand your mind. Oh, stuff like Moby Dick or War and Peace.

Houlding's 6th house attributes are fascinating because they go straight back to a Sumerian goddess Nidaba or Nisaba, who was the prototype of Mercury. Se was the deity for scribes, which meant primarily counting grain stores and book-keeping, not writing the Great Sumerian Novel. She also ruled astrologers (such as they were back-then) and their star-counting and planet-tracking; and I think it is from her that we can trace Mercury both as the traditional ruler of astrology and the sign Virgo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidaba

Interestingly, Mercury is both exalted and domiciled in Virgo: some historians of astrology think exaltations long predated domiciles.

Over time, this goddess got demoted to the wife of Nabu (Mercury) then Nabu replaced her, then we get into the Greek Hermes and the Roman god Mercury with the Egyptian moon-god Thoth and Hermes of Hermeticism playing a similar function.

So if we think of librarians as cataloguing, shelving, purchasing, checking-out, &c library books, this is a more clerical 6th house function.

TamaraL
10-14-2013, 04:55 AM
The 9th House is Travel... as it relates to Wisdom & Knowledge and living abroad for the purpose of study is clearly connected to that signification :smile:

I just saw your response thank you for that!yes I lived abroad for a while but it didn't have the impact (I thought it would) on my professional life, it was more like a spiritual journey....I feel enchanted by the 9th house and lucky to have my Sun there.I wish I could find out more...

I read somewhere that people with Sun in 9th will find professional success abroad and for women that they probably marry (or have an important relationship) with a foreigner...also fluency in many languages (English is not my native tongue :))

may28gemini
10-14-2013, 03:51 PM
Because Virgo is the sign for librarian and library?

Well, I think that since the purpose of Libraries ultimately falls under the category of communication, by which, falls under the rulership of Mercury. Because Mercury rules both Gemini or Virgo, take your pick of which sign by nature would be more interested in preserving information.

Traditionally, Mercury only rules 6th house. The concept of collecting, maintaining, and housing record/information is naturally more Virgoan than Geminian because Virgo is Earth and is concerned with material foundation. The process of interpreting, transcribing, and delivering messages falls under Gemini's Airy directorship.

JUPITERASC
10-14-2013, 04:42 PM
I just saw your response thank you for that!
That's ok :smile:
yes I lived abroad for a while but it didn't have the impact (I thought it would) on my professional life, it was more like a spiritual journey....I feel enchanted by the 9th house and lucky to have my Sun there.I wish I could find out more...

You can find out more - there are numerous other subforums to ask this question and the Natal Astrology aspects and configurations area may be a good place to discuss 9th house sun in aspect with other natal planets for example http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=40
This particular thread (started by, oh, wow, me!) was to discuss all things traditionally ascribed to the 9th. For individual chart purposes, well, that would be a separate thread. I'm cool as the OP with posting those thoughts here, but would prefer to see the charts themselves in order to identify if what we think are life topics specific to each of us related to the 9th are ascribable to something else.

I read somewhere that people with Sun in 9th will find professional success abroad and for women that they probably marry (or have an important relationship) with a foreigner...also fluency in many languages (English is not my native tongue :))
A reference for this information would be useful to ascertain whether it's modern or traditional astrology - this thread is posted in the traditional forum which focuses on the texts of astrologers writing more than one and a half thousand years ago in some cases

sheerbliss
10-14-2013, 04:48 PM
To what has already been mentioned, I could only add that it rules all the people who affect or stimulate our growth (teachers, priests, spiritual guides etc)., distant countries but also distant travel, pilgrimage and pilgrims

In Mundane astrology it rules foreign affairs, international law, religion, the Church and all institutions dealing with religious or spiritual matters, colleges, educational institutions, philosophical and scientific institutions but also publishing industry, airlines, sea traffic, world conferences etc.

As a derived 3rd from the 7th, it rules spouses' brothers and sisters.

When examined through the prism of the 3rd/9th axis, in a way, it extends the activities described by the 3rd: if the 3rd is a chit-chat then the 9th is a confession or counceling, if newspapers are the 3rd, heavy books are the 9th etc. Short course / high education, information / knowledge, phone call / travel, hearing something / understanding something etc.

It cadent, diurnal and masculine and the house in which the Sun rejoices.
In medical astrology, it rulers buttocks, hips and thighs.
The colours are green and white.

This house is naturally associated with Jupiter and Sagittarius. You can often find Jupiter inside the 9th in the natal charts of trully religious people. However, don't be surprised if you find a strong activity of well placed and dignified planets inside the 9th in the charts of people who claim to be atheists- healthy planets inside this house push the individuals to think about things represented by the 9th (including religion) and they often have very sound and well ground opinions when it comes to such matters.

The direction is South-south-west.

It also rules the first part of the person's adulthood or late teenage years ( the beginning of the 2nd quarter of life; houses 9,8,7), the 2nd 6 hour period of the day, summer months and choleric temperament.
i have venus in aries conjunct jupiter in aries and don't believe in organized religion, i do however respect other peoples beliefs

Cap
10-14-2013, 08:40 PM
Hi, olivia!

Traditional authors teach us that Saturn inside the 9th can also hinder the positive manifestations of the 9th house (W. Lilly says:"Mars or Saturn have been infortunately placed in this house; the Querent hath either been little better then a Atheist or a desperate Sectarist").

Personally, I tend to be very flexible in reading traditional texts when it comes to the 9th and the 12th house. The reason is simple- some of the most important texts were written in at the peak of the inquisition and, from today's standpoint, I believe that we need to adjust some of the lines to fit the standards of the liberal and democratic societies that we now (hopefully) live in. Witch hunts, ghosts and dungeons aren't really popular any more :) , are they?! however, more people get high education nowadays and the developement of sciences has gone a long way since the middle ages which not only means that some parts of the texts can be almost completely eliminated but also that the potential meaning need to be expanded.

So, in terms of Mars inside the 9th, I'd say that much will depend upon its essential strength. Similarly to Mars inside the 3rd, a well dignified Mars in this house can have a very benevolent nature and help the Nativity. An ill dignified planet could, of course, act as an obstacle. My Mars is inside the 10th and I have always had troubles with the authorities- I just don't like to be bossed and preached. However, it has also helped me protect myself from the negative influences and bossy people.
I'd say that Mars inside the 9th usually acts in a very similar way only, in this particular case, the anger is oriented towards either religious authorities or teachers. A well placed Mars inside the 9th, if supported by other promises, could make a great world traveller who is not afraid of visiting strange places and tasting suspicious food. :)

Mars in Scorpio, ruler of the 9th in 9th here!

Never really cared for organized religion. But in active pursuit of spirituality from my late teen years: yoga, meditation, all do-it-yourself stuff... Also, great interest in philosophy (eastern mostly), ancient esoteric texts, occult... Always wanted to test everything before establishing opinion. I guess I'm very typical...

kimbermoon
10-15-2013, 08:24 PM
I personally think that astrology was meant to be progressive, as evidenced by the multitudes of books written on the subject in the past 30 years...Perhaps it is my Uranus/Mercury conjunct therein. Ruled by the sign of Cancer, I also have Venus and Pluto in the 9th in the sign of Leo.
I was indoctrinated into the Catholic church in youth, but soon swerved away from the dogma and spent many years thereafter studying alternate religions and systems of belief; far eastern, Japan, India and the Mayans in particular. I did get a couple of unexpected opportunities to travel to both Japan and England, and later to Central America. I agree that we should recognize the polarity between each axis of the chart; while the 3rd represents the lower subconscious mind, working at a mundane level of awareness, by contrast the 9th is about journeys of the mind, as in reaching a higher level of consciousness. I do stand by the suggestion that Uranus is the Higher [creative] Intellect. With the 9th also being the 4th of the 5th, I have had a significant influence in the lives of my grandchildren.

Marius Cojoc
10-15-2013, 09:01 PM
msg deleted

tsmall
10-15-2013, 10:44 PM
I personally think that astrology was meant to be progressive, as evidenced by the multitudes of books written on the subject in the past 30 years...

And you are entitled to personally think what you like, and to express those views. We have forums here that give the opportunity to do so. The traditional forum is not one such.

Perhaps it is my Uranus/Mercury conjunct therein. Ruled by the sign of Cancer, I also have Venus and Pluto in the 9th in the sign of Leo.

Perhaps it is. However, Uranus is not considered traditionally. Are you able to find a way to support your thoughts about your 9th house using only traditional methods?


I was indoctrinated into the Catholic church in youth, but soon swerved away from the dogma and spent many years thereafter studying alternate religions and systems of belief; far eastern, Japan, India and the Mayans in particular. I did get a couple of unexpected opportunities to travel to both Japan and England, and later to Central America. I agree that we should recognize the polarity between each axis of the chart; while the 3rd represents the lower subconscious mind, working at a mundane level of awareness, by contrast the 9th is about journeys of the mind, as in reaching a higher level of consciousness. I do stand by the suggestion that Uranus is the Higher [creative] Intellect. With the 9th also being the 4th of the 5th, I have had a significant influence in the lives of my grandchildren.

There are two threads running close to concurrent in the traditional forum, one on the 9th house in general (this one) and one started much later by eternalautumn that speaks to 9th placements for religion or lack thereof.

I have no beef with anyone who wishes to explore their own 9th houses here, but for learning purposes it would help tremendously if those posting to this thread about personal experiences include a chart. That way, we can explore traditional methods for delineating the 9th and see what we come up with. Otherwise this is just another "I have this aspect and these beliefs" thread. Which entirely does not fit into the traditional method, because we look at the entire condition of the planet, and the chart, before we draw conclusions on specific placements.

waybread
10-15-2013, 11:06 PM
One of the more interesting (cough, ahem) traditional meanings of the 9th is prophecy, which I think originated with Apollo as the god of the Oracle of Delphi. This is more akin to the god's original meaning than is the sun god identity, which came later. In ancient times, not too many people were bona fide True Prophets, but people placed a lot of faith in dreams and visions as revealing the future, and these are 9th house matters, as well.

Since Apollo initially didn't get his own planet, I suspect that he got a house-- or part of it.

A great site on Greek mythology is www.theoi.com (http://www.theoi.com) .

sheerbliss
10-15-2013, 11:31 PM
Hi Kimmbermoon happy to attach my chart

dr. farr
10-16-2013, 03:56 AM
Apollo = the Sun...

waybread
10-16-2013, 06:26 AM
The author of the Apollo section at www.theoi.com (http://www.theoi.com) lists several attributes of Apollo (such as prophecy), concluding that,

"These characteristics of Apollo necessarily appear in a peculiar light, if we adopt the view which was almost universal among the later poets, mythographers, and philesophers, and according to which Apollo was identical with Helios, or the Sun. In Homer and for some centuries after his time Apollo and Helios are perfectiy distinct. The question which here presents itself, is, whether the idea of the identity of the two divinities was the original and primitive one, and was only revival in later times, or whether it was the result of later speculations and of foreign, chiefly Egyptian, influence."

The latter is an interesting idea, because the houses are a Hellenistic/Egyptian invention, so far as I can tell. (Cf. Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.)

dr. farr
10-16-2013, 06:42 AM
I'll go with Egyptian influences-heck these were affecting the Greeks from the time of Pythagoras at least (6th century BC) and perhaps even earlier (along the lines of Egypt to Minoan civilization to Mycenae Greece then to the Greek Dark age...)

I speculate that by the time of the Hellenist syncretism (of the remnants of earlier Egyptian and Bablyonian/Sumerian/Elamite astrological streams) ie c. 300 BC (@ Alexandria, Kos and Athens) the identity (amalgamation) of Apollo & Helios, had become the prevalent outlook.

kimbermoon
10-16-2013, 07:00 PM
Thnaks Sheerbliss
Apparently I posted in the wrong area with my comments. In view of your chart, I will answer back in the normal Read My Chart thread about your own 9th H.

sheerbliss
10-17-2013, 10:51 PM
Thank you Kimmbermoon i will look for it there

Lucypur
12-17-2013, 05:13 AM
I have Jupiter in Leo in the 9th House.
My Jupiter opposes Saturn in Aquarius in the 3rd House.
My Sun in Taurus in the 6th House Squares my Jupiter & Saturn.
This forms a T-Square between the Planets.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/inuyasha_inuyasha13/astro_2gw_01_trent_57245_18146.gif

may28gemini
12-19-2013, 06:53 AM
Lucypur, traditionally, Whole Signs is the chart system used. You actually have Jupiter in the 10th house, which is an angular house.

JUPITERASC
12-19-2013, 11:42 AM
Lucypur, traditionally, Whole Signs is the chart system used. You actually have Jupiter in the 10th house, which is an angular house.
And so your 9th house planet is Mars :smile:

tsmall
12-21-2013, 03:04 AM
Lucypur, traditionally, Whole Signs is the chart system used. You actually have Jupiter in the 10th house, which is an angular house.

In order to avoid some amount of confusion...Whole Signs is one traditional house system, but most traditional natal astrologers will use either Regio or what I use, Alcabitus. Or Placidus, or Porphyry, or...pick one.

Alcabitus is the quadrant based house system credited to al-Qabisi. What most people seem to miss is that it is necessary, as well as proven in the texts, that astrologers going back to Persian and Hellenistic times were actually using both...count signs and still look at houses. It grew out of the concept of angularity, as in how far past an angle a plant found itself in order to judge...for lack of a better word...energy. Not just any energy (there is some consideration that the terms angular, succeedent and cadent are references to what we now consider the three forms of energy in physics..angular/kinetic; succeedent/potential; and cadent/mechanical...and things that fall will do so quick, fast and in a hurry...) but the energy the planet carries in order to serve out it's functions in the chart.

Remember, in order to properly delineate/predict, we need to first consider the planet in and of itself (as in relation to the Sun/solar phase, and next it's relation to the horizon/sect), the sign/house (so dispositor as well as essential dignity/debility) in which it is posited, and lastly the aspects it makes. Once we know those, only then can we start to make judgments about what the planet will do.

In the chart given, Jupiter in Leo is in the 10th sign but 9th house, mostly in sect for being in a masculine sign and quadrant, triplicity ruler, square his own oos ruler, and opposing a domiciled Saturn. What conclusions then can we draw from this position of Jupiter?

dr. farr
12-21-2013, 03:24 AM
Alchabitius itself derived from a modification by Rhetorius of Porphyry; historians have often used the name "Rhetorius/Alchabitius" for the Alchabitius house format: Alchabitius was used as the dominant house system (especially in the Middle East, but also as predominant in Europe) from c. mid-9th century (when the formerly near-universal whole sign house format suddenly vanished) through the times of Guido Bonatti and Gerard of Cremona: in Europe Alchabitius rather suddenly disappeared with the advent of Campanus and Regiomontanus (c. 14th century)...

tsmall
12-21-2013, 03:28 AM
Alchabitius itself derived from a modification by Rhetorius of Porphyry; historians have often used the name "Rhetorius/Alchabitius" for the Alchabitius house format: Alchabitius was used as the dominant house system (especially in the Middle East, but also as predominant in Europe) from c. mid-9th century (when the formerly near-universal whole sign house format suddenly vanished) through the times of Guido Bonatti and Gerard of Cremona: in Europe Alchabitius rather suddenly disappeared with the advent of Campanus and Regiomontanus (c. 14th century)...

:joyful:

(at least 10 characters...)

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 04:11 AM
Lucypur's Leo Jupiter is in Jupiter's terms (Chaldean) and accidentally dignified in the 10th house (Whole Signs). Nice. Leo Jupiter functions like Cancer Jupiter.

tsmall
12-21-2013, 04:18 AM
Lucypur's Leo Jupiter is in Jupiter's terms (Chaldean) and accidentally dignified in the 10th house (Whole Signs). Nice. Leo Jupiter functions like Cancer Jupiter.

May, not quite, though this is a pretty powerful Jupiter for all that he is opposite the sect of the chart (diurnal planet in a nocturnal chart.) Jupiter in Cancer is exalted, Jupiter in Leo in his own terms is an entirely different Jupiter. You follow? This is where a background in traditional concepts will help, even with so-called modern delineations. What is the difference between Jupiter in Cancer and Jupiter in Leo? Is Jupiter exalted in Leo? No. Is Jupiter peregrine in Leo? No. Follow the dots, because this is a science/language...and it is implicit in it's definitions.

Ok, you found a planet in some of his own terms (I use Egyptian, and even then didn't cast a chart and check, so I'm going on yours)...what, delineatively, does that mean? Accidentally dignified for being in a stake (10th sign) but still cadent for being in the 9th house. There is an energy transfer that is waiting to happen, but won't happen without impetus, follow? Where does Jupiter get his impetus?

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 04:27 AM
Domiciled Saturn also in his own terms.

Sorry there's gunshots that got fired in my hood and LAPD is all over the place. My mind is frazzled and I'm only typing general observations.

dr. farr
12-21-2013, 04:32 AM
I will add that Jupiter posits an elevated degree of Leo (the 4th), which (according to authors such as Abu Mashar, al-Biruni and Ibn Ezra) boost a planet's + qualities and relieve (at least to some extent) from both accidental and essential detriments (Jupiter is out of sect in the chart, in the duodenary of Virgo-Jupiter's detriment-and in the face of Saturn, and in the monomoiria of Saturn)-the angularity issue put aside, Jupiter would have been detrimented except for its positing an elevated degree-which fact, however, I suggest restores Jupiter to balance, perhaps even to functional beneficence...

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 04:52 AM
I kind of have a similar situation with my 0 Libra Jupiter. Degree is pitted and critical, in Saturn's term and in the face of the Moon. Jupiter is accidentally dignified being in the 1st house and conjuncts AC. Jupiter opposes the Moon (his face) and conjuncts Saturn (his term).

I suppose one would conclude that my Jupiter is "damaged." I can attest that it works very well...

poyi
12-21-2013, 05:12 AM
Libra as the first sign and Jupiter in libra, so your Jupiter ruling the 3rd which is your local community, your sibling, your primary school etc. The damaged Jupiter reflects the malefic areas and from memories you have sadness from sibling which also got confirmed with your natal Mercury then secondly your stories of local neighbourhood and so on.

My Jupiter according to dr Farr information also in pitted degree in Sagittarius ruler of 4th and at IC also conjuncts south node the best example of this malefic condition was my grandfather my blood line from father side had to give up his lands to save his family from communists a landlord and family's legacy fallen. My grandfather was a great man, religious and supported orphans, but no matter how much my grandfather loved me, nurtured me in my early childhood, my own parents/family home were abusive and not religious at all. Personally I wished the pitted degree is not really that bad and I do get a bit confused with the south node combination. In early life the pitted degree was truly malefic yet a mixed of many fortune were still existing otherwise I wouldn't be able to move aboard!! so far since I moved abroad my life is getting much better also internally at peace and have great interest in spiritual matters expressed what Jupiter supposes to do being aboard and seek higher meaning of life, however still living by myself so don't know how it will play out when having a family. I did wonder about pitted degree should it remain malefic for the entire life? perhaps we should also investigate further as now people living much longer. The other question is if the degrees now different to ancient time.

tsmall
12-21-2013, 05:13 AM
I will add that Jupiter posits an elevated degree of Leo (the 4th), which (according to authors such as Abu Mashar, al-Biruni and Ibn Ezra) boost a planet's + qualities and relieve (at least to some extent) from both accidental and essential detriments (Jupiter is out of sect in the chart, in the duodenary of Virgo-Jupiter's detriment-and in the face of Saturn, and in the monomoiria of Saturn)-the angularity issue put aside, Jupiter would have been detrimented except for its positing an elevated degree-which fact, however, I suggest restores Jupiter to balance, perhaps even to functional beneficence...


How many times can I :love: in one evening. I was looking at the opposition to Saturn (recieved by Jupiter as you just proved) as a compromise between two oos planets...and the Square to the Sun as the impetus Jupiter needs.

dr. farr
12-21-2013, 05:13 AM
I suppose one would conclude that my Jupiter is "damaged." I can attest that it works very well...


Pitted Jupiter can also mean that - influences re to Jupiter are neutralized, or at least partially so. And, of course, pits and elevations (celestial topography) are not "all-powerful": they are additional factors to the totality of essential and accidental influences on any planet in a specific chart.

tsmall
12-21-2013, 05:22 AM
My Jupiter according to dr Farr information also in pitted degree in Sagittarius ruler of 4th and at IC also conjuncts south node the best example of this malefic condition was my grandfather my blood line from father side had to give up his lands to save his family from communists a landlord and family's legacy fallen. My grandfather was a great man, religious and supported orphans, but no matter how much my grandfather loved me, nurtured me in my early childhood, my own parents/family home were abusive and not religious at all. Personally I wished the pitted degree is not really that bad and I do get a bit confused with the south node combination. In early life the pitted degree was truly malefic yet a mixed of many fortune were still existing otherwise I wouldn't be able to move aboard!! so far since I moved abroad my life is getting much better also internally at peace and have great interest in spiritual matters expressed what Jupiter supposes to do being aboard and seek higher meaning of life, however still living by myself so don't know how it will play out when having a family. I did wonder about pitted degree should it remain malefic for the entire life? perhaps we should also investigate further as now people living much longer. The other question is if the degrees now different to ancient time.

poyi, I have my Moon, ruler of my MC, in pitted degree. It is, as dr. farr says, only one consideration among many. Moon pitted in 6th sign/house? I am totally and completely well respected in my field, but never reached the heights I wanted. Jupiter is exaltation ruler of my 10th and posited in 1st, and so I fall out ok. And at 44? With a peregrine Jupiter adhering to the the ASC...finally coming into my own, with actually a hope of a good career on the horizon.

The point is to work with your chart, and not against it. So often, we rail at the hand we are dealt. If we can understand it (prescience is useful) then we can bluff the house with a handfull of nothing more than a pair of deuces.

poyi
12-21-2013, 05:30 AM
poyi, I have my Moon, ruler of my MC, in pitted degree. It is, as dr. farr says, only one consideration among many. Moon pitted in 6th sign/house? I am totally and completely well respected in my field, but never reached the heights I wanted. Jupiter is exaltation ruler of my 10th and posited in 1st, and so I fall out ok. And at 44? With a peregrine Jupiter adhering to the the ASC...finally coming into my own, with actually a hope of a good career on the horizon.

The point is to work with your chart, and not against it. So often, we rail at the hand we are dealt. If we can understand it (prescience is useful) then we can bluff the house with a handfull of nothing more than a pair of deuces.

I suppose having a Big Fat Jupiter in Sagittarius at IC even a south node conjunction and pitted degree can't slim it all the way down. :tongue: I do feel luck and fortune getting stronger as I get older.

dr. farr
12-21-2013, 05:35 AM
I did wonder about pitted degree should it remain malefic for the entire life? perhaps we should also investigate further as now people living much longer. The other question is if the degrees now different to ancient time.


Important to realize this:

ELEVATED degrees are ALWAYS positive, "booster", conferring a "benefic" influence upon any planet in them, rescuing (to a certain extent at least) from debility and adding to the potency of any dignity, of the planet in them (they were once referred to as "degrees of honor", and "degrees of increasing fortune")

PITTED degrees however are NOT NECESSARILY MALEFIC: rather they are NEUTRALIZERS (all the early authors except Ibn Ezra, regarded them as tending to neutralize)-one could even refer to them as "balancers": the ancients taught that both the + influences AND THE - INFLUENCES regarding a planet (acting upon the influence of a planet) in a pitted degree, were REDUCED TOWARD "EVEN"-eg an otherwise highly dignified planet in a pit would not express all that much dignity, and equally a highly detrimented planet in a pit would not be "all that bad" in its expression.
Know too that pitted degrees also represent blockage, and delay: the expression of a planet could be inhibited or blocked by being in a pitted degree, NOT NEGATED BY IT! So a time factor can come into play regarding planets (or Lots) in a pitted degree: a functional benefic in the natal chart in a pitted degree is NOT made unfortunate thereby!! It could mean that the expression of this functionally benefic planet will be inhibited or blocked FOR A TIME-but NOT blocked forever!! An example of this-although here involving a negative influence-can be seen in the natal chart of Marilyn Monroe: her Part of Suicide was in her natal 8th (whole sign) house-a very unfavorable placement for the Part of Suicide. Yet-did MM suffer repeated episodes of attempted suicide throughout her life? No-not at all; actually she had NO episodes of attempted suicide PRIOR TO HER ACTUALLY COMMITTING SUICIDE AT AGE 36 (in 1962) Why no previous attempts, since her Part of Suicide was there in the 8th house in the natal? Because her Part of Suicide WAS IN A PITTED DEGREE: the activation of this factor was BLOCKED-DELAYED-by the Part being in a pitted degree, and only "arose from its pit" many years (36 years) after her birth. So, pitted degrees often indicate blockage of expression over time, for planets or Lots, in them-NOT NEGATION of the influences of those planets or Lots.


In answer to Poyi's second question, no I do not think that the elevated and pitted degrees are different today than in ancient times; I have used the original degree indications from the oldtime books, and they have "worked" accurately enough for me to consider them valid for delineative and predictive purposes to the present time.

poyi
12-21-2013, 05:41 AM
Important to realize this:

ELEVATED degrees are ALWAYS positive, "booster", conferring a "benefic" influence upon any planet in them, rescuing (to a certain extent at least) from debility and adding to the potency of any dignity, of the planet in them (they were once referred to as "degrees of honor", and "degrees of increasing fortune")

PITTED degrees however are NOT NECESSARILY MALEFIC: rather they are NEUTRALIZERS (all the early authors except Ibn Ezra, regarded them as tending to neutralize)-one could even refer to them as "balancers": the ancients taught that both the + influences AND THE - INFLUENCES regarding a planet (acting upon the influence of a planet) in a pitted degree, were REDUCED TOWARD "EVEN"-eg an otherwise highly dignified planet in a pit would not express all that much dignity, and equally a highly detrimented planet in a pit would not be "all that bad" in its expression.
Know too that pitted degrees also represent blockage, and delay: the expression of a planet could be inhibited or blocked by being in a pitted degree, NOT NEGATED BY IT! So a time factor can come into play regarding planets (or Lots) in a pitted degree: a functional benefic in the natal chart in a pitted degree is NOT made unfortunate thereby!! It could mean that the expression of this functionally benefic planet will be inhibited or blocked FOR A TIME-but NOT blocked forever!! An example of this-although here involving a negative influence-can be seen in the natal chart of Marilyn Monroe: her Part of Suicide was in her natal 8th (whole sign) house-a very unfavorable placement for the Part of Suicide. Yet-did MM suffer repeated episodes of attempted suicide throughout her life? No-not at all; actually she had NO episodes of attempted suicide PRIOR TO HER ACTUALLY COMMITTING SUICIDE AT AGE 36 (in 1962) Why no previous attempts, since her Part of Suicide was there in the 8th house in the natal? Because her Part of Suicide WAS IN A PITTED DEGREE: the activation of this factor was BLOCKED-DELAYED-by the Part being in a pitted degree, and only "arose from its pit" many years (36 years) after her birth. So, pitted degrees often indicate blockage of expression over time, for planets or Lots, in them-NOT NEGATION of the influences of those planets or Lots.


In answer to Poyi's second question, no I do not think that the elevated and pitted degrees are different today than in ancient times; I have used the original degree indications from the oldtime books, and they have "worked" accurately enough for me to consider them valid for delineative and predictive purposes to the present time.


Thank you for explaining and answering my questions. My understanding from my Chinese chart, also indicates a late boomer and will boom a lot...lets hope I got it right and not booming at my waist line, the good old Jupiter! The best time should be around 40-60s.

How should we find the time lord? I am not familiar with this method. Anyhow, this is an off topic question!:surprised:

dr. farr
12-21-2013, 05:51 AM
Time Lords are pretty much the equivalent of the mahadasha lords of the Vimshottari dasha system of mainstream Vedic astrology, although the Time Lords (these were used in Hellenic and Islamic/Medieval astrology) are determined by a much different method than in Vedic astrology (Vimshottari uses the sequence of planets following the nakshatra lord of the natal Moon to determine the mahadasha "time" lords)...methods for determining the Western astrology Time Lords, and their periods of influence, can be found in books on Hellenist (and Islamic transitional era) astrology.

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 08:42 AM
How many times can I :love: in one evening. I was looking at the opposition to Saturn (recieved by Jupiter as you just proved) as a compromise between two oos planets...and the Square to the Sun as the impetus Jupiter needs.

Sorry about vagueness earlier. I was distracted from LAPD helicopters, screaming neighbors, and I was running on what little steam I had left after waiting 10 hours for my car to get fixed and emptying out my savings to pay for it.

Ahhh... when I mentioned earlier about Leo Jupiter functioning like Cancer Jupiter I did not mean that it turns into exalted Jupiter. It is and will always be Leo Jupiter, however due to factors of being in Jupiter's terms, accidental dignity, masculine, diurnal, etc. Leo Jupiter in the person's chart functions as a powerful benefic. Now...the thing is, she does have domiciled Saturn placed in an angular house and in Saturn's terms which opposes Jupiter. Jupiter is also in the face of Saturn... so basically her Jupiter operates at the behest of Saturn as he is stronger than her Jupiter. But since Saturn is dignified in his own right, he doesn't pull Jupiter down but Jupiter does not operate on his own with Saturn having a say.

As for my "damaged" Jupiter, I just offered that as another example that is similar to Lucypur- my Jupiter is tied to Saturn via conjunction which is even touted as being the worse thing ever and sits in Saturn's house (1st house) so my Jupiter also operates at Saturn's pleasure. My saving grace is that Saturn is exalted so he's not in an agitated state that he depresses Jupiter. The general concept of the greatest conjunction is that Jupiter can bonify Saturn but Saturn will malify Jupiter. However, I "attested" that my Saturn ruled Jupiter actually works fine...just not exactly in the "normal" Jupiteran way, but via Saturn's honorable prudence and judiciousness. Additionally, Jupiter and Saturn trine my Sun in the 9th house, the Sun's Joy.

Basically, in reality, if I am "good" I am rewarded twice (by both Saturn and Jupiter). I am mischievous but not rotten. However, when I am "bad," I get knocked down twice, as well.

Although I'm aware of pitted/dark/etc. degrees, I really don't give much credence to them. 0 Libra is the only pitted degree that's also critical. Critical planets are powerful in their own right, for better or worse.

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 09:15 AM
Libra as the first sign and Jupiter in libra, so your Jupiter ruling the 3rd which is your local community, your sibling, your primary school etc. The damaged Jupiter reflects the malefic areas and from memories you have sadness from sibling which also got confirmed with your natal Mercury then secondly your stories of local neighbourhood and so on.

My Jupiter according to dr Farr information also in pitted degree in Sagittarius ruler of 4th and at IC also conjuncts south node the best example of this malefic condition was my grandfather my blood line from father side had to give up his lands to save his family from communists a landlord and family's legacy fallen. My grandfather was a great man, religious and supported orphans, but no matter how much my grandfather loved me, nurtured me in my early childhood, my own parents/family home were abusive and not religious at all. Personally I wished the pitted degree is not really that bad and I do get a bit confused with the south node combination. In early life the pitted degree was truly malefic yet a mixed of many fortune were still existing otherwise I wouldn't be able to move aboard!! so far since I moved abroad my life is getting much better also internally at peace and have great interest in spiritual matters expressed what Jupiter supposes to do being aboard and seek higher meaning of life, however still living by myself so don't know how it will play out when having a family. I did wonder about pitted degree should it remain malefic for the entire life? perhaps we should also investigate further as now people living much longer. The other question is if the degrees now different to ancient time.

Yes, my older brother died when I was very young and I was right next to him. Although I tend to have nice/good natured neighbors, I've never lived anywhere that didn't have a good amount of harm/violence. One of my closest friends committed suicide and I saw his body before it was officially discovered. Even at boarding school I possessed knowledge of some bullying others and I was pushed around too...except I always shoved back and usually I shoved others out the window (metaphorically). Before I am awarded by Jupiter, Saturn puts me through the ringer. However, I'm still happy-go-lucky. I'm alive and well. My cat loves and needs me. I maintain a positive outlook in life, even if I am really disgusted by people's stupidity/grossness. I don't give up, so Jupiter functions as he should.

I'm not sure your pitted Sagittarius Jupiter is any less powerful as Jupiter is in his own domicile and freely and happily runs amuck. Jupiter in 4th and conjunct IC (or so it would be in Whole Signs) is a native who comes from a protected roots and born with the integration of a generous "spirit." Jupiter upholds the moral principle of giving and when domiciled or exalted and conjuncts IC, he maintains that belief as the very root of his existence. You were born with Jupiter's greatest lessons already learned. Haha at the very same token, I was born with Saturn's greatest lessons already learned.

BTW, my domiciled Gemini Mercury is in a pitted degree and in the 9th house conjunct MC. Ahahahahaha I'm kinda "fuzzy" in comparison to other Gemini Mercury degrees but it is not "hindered" or "blocked." Mercury is home relaxing naked and "she" (feminine degree) doesn't care who knows :lol:

may28gemini
12-21-2013, 12:20 PM
poyi, I have my Moon, ruler of my MC, in pitted degree. It is, as dr. farr says, only one consideration among many. Moon pitted in 6th sign/house? I am totally and completely well respected in my field, but never reached the heights I wanted. Jupiter is exaltation ruler of my 10th and posited in 1st, and so I fall out ok. And at 44? With a peregrine Jupiter adhering to the the ASC...finally coming into my own, with actually a hope of a good career on the horizon.

The point is to work with your chart, and not against it. So often, we rail at the hand we are dealt. If we can understand it (prescience is useful) then we can bluff the house with a handfull of nothing more than a pair of deuces.

Ahhh...I feel some of what you speak of.

Ruler of my Cancer 10th house and MC is Pisces Moon in 6th house and in pitted degree, in Saturn's term, and in the face of Mars! Moon is opposite of Saturn (term) and sextile Mars (face). EEEKKKK!!

AHAHAHAHAHA I have gotten in a LOT of trouble in every job I've held where my temper flared up and I wanted to go on a smashing spree. My temper isn't ignited for the fun of it, I get sorely tested (opposite Saturn) and instead of being reserved, I opt for throwing more fuel at the fire (sextile Mars).

I try to work on my tempestuous Moon, but it's a violent ocean that's a bit tough to tame.

JUPITERASC
12-21-2013, 12:22 PM
Time Lords are pretty much the equivalent of the mahadasha lords of the Vimshottari dasha system of mainstream Vedic astrology, although the Time Lords (these were used in Hellenic and Islamic/Medieval astrology) are determined by a much different method than in Vedic astrology (Vimshottari uses the sequence of planets following the nakshatra lord of the natal Moon to determine the mahadasha "time" lords)...methods for determining the Western astrology Time Lords, and their periods of influence, can be found in books on Hellenist (and Islamic transitional era) astrology.
dr. farr, you have studied astrology for more than forty years, so are more familiar with the mahadasha lords of the Vimshottari dasha system of mainstream vedic astrology than many of us are. Many thanks for these interesting comments

For use of Time Lords in Western Astrology both ancient and modern, here's a link to a useful information packed discussion
on the traditional and ancient technique of TIME LORDS http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6916&sid=f1b8655973e68f4742ada7c99fda6f5e

HELLENISTIC TIME LORD PROCEDURES :smile:

'….One of the fundamental concepts common to the many Hellenistic timing techniques is that of time lord.
The Greek word is chronocrator,
and this literally means a ruler of time.
When a planet becomes a time lord in an individual’s chart, it becomes activated
and that planet then rules over the affairs of the person’s life for a given period of time.

Whatever events that planet signifies in the natal chart are likely to occur when it is the time lord; and according to its placement, condition and configurations with other planets, those events will be more or less dramatic and more or less beneficial to the life.....' DEMETRA GEORGE http://www.demetra-george.com/HellenisticTimeLordProcedures.pdf