What is characteristic of retrograde planets?
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
As you are interested in classic texts of astrology, then one of the classic texts is the Anthology of Vettius Valens which just so happens to be freely available after almost two thousand years, having been translated by a Professor Riley
at http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf and I posted the following comments on Hellenistic delineation of retrograde motion during a discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=344568#post344568
Personally I find Retrogradation to be an abnormality rather than a straight debility. Retrograde planets tend to be unusual in their manifestations I also find there is an element of delay in their significations or of the planet being unable to carry out its significations to the full.
These traits are much different in Horary than in natal work. I find my comments above more suited to natal work. I would follow the traditional descriptions of it being a straight debility in horary work; you don't want the querent or quesite being retrograde then. Interestingly, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi in their introductory work talk of pushing nature/management/power which basically involves a planet applying to another and the effects of different siuations therein. There is another facet of this which is "returning". This is when a planet applies to another, the 2nd planet is afflcited someway (being under the beams or retrograde). The 1st is pushing nature/management/power to the 2nd but the 2nd can't carry the burden so returns it to the first planet. If the first planet is cadent or otherwise afflcited, it can't carry the burden and both planets and their significations are harmed. If it is angular and unafflcited, then it receives its original burden from the 2nd planet and can carry out the significations of the contact. I find this more relevant to horary as Horary is more immeiate and specific but I am open to using it in natal work, particularly in annual work such as Revolutions. I believe these techniques are Persian in origin (as opposed to Hellenistic or Arabic).
As for natal, if, for example, a significator of wealth was retrograde while having lordship in one of the various time-lord systems, we could expect the acquisition of wealth to be delayed or we could expect it to be received but taken away later. I find this last point many times in nativities. The planet can bring its signfications but lacks the power to solidify them and they are taken away or they dissipate.
Indian astrology sees retrograde planets as being very powerful in their significations.
These traits are much different in Horary than in natal work. I find my comments above more suited to natal work. I would follow the traditional descriptions of it being a straight debility in horary work; you don't want the querent or quesite being retrograde then. Interestingly, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi in their introductory work talk of pushing nature/management/power which basically involves a planet applying to another and the effects of different siuations therein. There is another facet of this which is "returning". This is when a planet applies to another, the 2nd planet is afflcited someway (being under the beams or retrograde). The 1st is pushing nature/management/power to the 2nd but the 2nd can't carry the burden so returns it to the first planet. If the first planet is cadent or otherwise afflcited, it can't carry the burden and both planets and their significations are harmed. If it is angular and unafflcited, then it receives its original burden from the 2nd planet and can carry out the significations of the contact. I find this more relevant to horary as Horary is more immeiate and specific but I am open to using it in natal work, particularly in annual work such as Revolutions. I believe these techniques are Persian in origin (as opposed to Hellenistic or Arabic).
As for natal, if, for example, a significator of wealth was retrograde while having lordship in one of the various time-lord systems, we could expect the acquisition of wealth to be delayed or we could expect it to be received but taken away later. I find this last point many times in nativities. The planet can bring its signfications but lacks the power to solidify them and they are taken away or they dissipate.
Indian astrology sees retrograde planets as being very powerful in their significations.
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Moog
Well-known member
Retrograde planets are closer to the earth. Retrograde planets are visible (earthly conditions permitting), for longer periods.
Jupiter, for example, has been retrograde for a while, and visible in the winter night sky.
Come July, he will be combust and rising always with the sun. He will be mostly invisible during this period.
Here's an image made with this free program to illustrate;
It seems sensible to me that retrograde planets have more power to influence, and combust planets are weaker and have less influence.
However, the planets have a range of motional qualities, with the two states mentioned (retrograde and combustion) being part of a spectrum of 'states of being', in regard to their relationship with the sun and the earth.
Cheshta Bala ('motional strength') is one of the parts of Shad Bala, a quantitive system of measuring planetary strength. Most Vedic astrology softwares have a shad bala calculation function, and it's definitely worth checking out if you're interested in learning about these things.
Jagannatha Hora is pretty sweet for a freebie.
Jupiter, for example, has been retrograde for a while, and visible in the winter night sky.
Come July, he will be combust and rising always with the sun. He will be mostly invisible during this period.
Here's an image made with this free program to illustrate;
It seems sensible to me that retrograde planets have more power to influence, and combust planets are weaker and have less influence.
However, the planets have a range of motional qualities, with the two states mentioned (retrograde and combustion) being part of a spectrum of 'states of being', in regard to their relationship with the sun and the earth.
Cheshta Bala ('motional strength') is one of the parts of Shad Bala, a quantitive system of measuring planetary strength. Most Vedic astrology softwares have a shad bala calculation function, and it's definitely worth checking out if you're interested in learning about these things.
Jagannatha Hora is pretty sweet for a freebie.
There is an opposition regarding rx in the views of Hellenistic and Traditional Western astrology VS Vedic astrology (from its earliest times to the present) The West has always considered Rx a detriment, debility, at least a negative situation, Vedic always as the planet being strengthened in its influences (whether for good or for ill)
I have mostly adopted the Western perspective, however over recent years I have more and more been leaning toward the Vedic outlook; at present, I think I have seen evidence for both sides of the issue!!
I have mostly adopted the Western perspective, however over recent years I have more and more been leaning toward the Vedic outlook; at present, I think I have seen evidence for both sides of the issue!!
Yes I too am not sure of the quantative power of a planet retrograde. I find stationing planets to be of great importance though.
some people think forward is action-historical while retrograde is ahistorical.
the planet becomes introverted or resetting based on the transit effect.
the forward planet is considered more pure and more fluid since it follows the energies programs.
the retrograde is about reprogramming and changing course. the retrograde is easier to see program lines. although the forward representation of it is not ready.
this is why retrograde can be better for yin activities and foreward or speed up is better for yang activities.
the retrograde has to focus and climb while it feels like its being held back while the forward is free to make on the spot decisions.
the retrograde planet communicating with the foreward planet has some transduction errors when they are coming at the situation from a different angle.
the retrograde period is a more silent period, but the noise is more ambiguous maybe subconscious.
the planet becomes introverted or resetting based on the transit effect.
the forward planet is considered more pure and more fluid since it follows the energies programs.
the retrograde is about reprogramming and changing course. the retrograde is easier to see program lines. although the forward representation of it is not ready.
this is why retrograde can be better for yin activities and foreward or speed up is better for yang activities.
the retrograde has to focus and climb while it feels like its being held back while the forward is free to make on the spot decisions.
the retrograde planet communicating with the foreward planet has some transduction errors when they are coming at the situation from a different angle.
the retrograde period is a more silent period, but the noise is more ambiguous maybe subconscious.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
While reading an interesting discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7286&start=45 I noted the following relevant comment regarding retrograde planets
'....So, the "unusual expression" of the retrograde planets I DON'T take to be:
a) "well it will be ok just the same as in the case of direct planets, but will be realized in an unusual way".
I take it to be:
b) "well, it will not be so ok as in the case of direct planets
...and will be realized with more difficulties and obstacles and probably would not last or will be transitory, taking into account the other fortitudes or debilities of the same planet".
This is, in my opinion, the difference between the expression in an unusual way of the retrograde planets.
And of course, we can't judge anything for sure on one testimony only. But the retrogradation would add to the whole picture...."
'....So, the "unusual expression" of the retrograde planets I DON'T take to be:
a) "well it will be ok just the same as in the case of direct planets, but will be realized in an unusual way".
I take it to be:
b) "well, it will not be so ok as in the case of direct planets
...and will be realized with more difficulties and obstacles and probably would not last or will be transitory, taking into account the other fortitudes or debilities of the same planet".
This is, in my opinion, the difference between the expression in an unusual way of the retrograde planets.
And of course, we can't judge anything for sure on one testimony only. But the retrogradation would add to the whole picture...."
While reading an interesting discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7286&start=45 I noted the following relevant comment regarding retrograde planets
'....So, the "unusual expression" of the retrograde planets I DON'T take to be:
a) "well it will be ok just the same as in the case of direct planets, but will be realized in an unusual way".
I take it to be:
b) "well, it will not be so ok as in the case of direct planets
...and will be realized with more difficulties and obstacles and probably would not last or will be transitory, taking into account the other fortitudes or debilities of the same planet".
This is, in my opinion, the difference between the expression in an unusual way of the retrograde planets.
And of course, we can't judge anything for sure on one testimony only. But the retrogradation would add to the whole picture...."
Yeah, Ile is a good astrologer. I'm glad he agrees with my own findings.
While Ivy G-B dis write one of the more widely read horary textbooks, she is not a traditional astrologer.
Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson believed that RX planets gain inner strength and an access to an inner depth, and are much like icebergs. There is much more to them below than there is on the surface.
I guess this is more like the Vedic view. I don't know if this comment is out of bounds with the discussions here regarding traditional astrology since I am not a traditional astrologer.
Z
Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson believed that RX planets gain inner strength and an access to an inner depth, and are much like icebergs. There is much more to them below than there is on the surface.
I guess this is more like the Vedic view. I don't know if this comment is out of bounds with the discussions here regarding traditional astrology since I am not a traditional astrologer.
Z
M
may28gemini
What about Saturn Rx? Isn't Saturn actually comfortable in retrograde motion?
Many have commented on the opposing views re retro planets. Is there any similar difference between systems re peregrine planets? I have a peregrine uranus in the 10th natally, and find it had a very big influence in my professional life. I was always anti authoritarian, and have been arrested many times for civil disobedience. I was completely unable to accept or respect supervision or supervisors. I never had a supervisor I could respect, til I quit working for others went to Law School and worked independently. However, I then was able to recognize the particular judge I worked under as having legitimate authority over me because of the diligence he exhibited, his knowledge, his respect for the least who entered the courtroom, etc. Sadly, both my daughter and granddaughter have the same pattern of Uranus in the 10th, and I feel sorry for them and their supervisors.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
may29gemini said:
No.
Outer planets are not peregrine in traditional astrology as they don't have dignities.
As for differences in interpretation of peregrine planets in general (you could probably also make the case for the differences in retro), I think it gets a lot more difficult to discuss something when we start framing them in terms of psychological or personality traits instead of events or things that they signify. The medieval and Hellenistic traditions are pretty straightforward about retrograde planets being unable to handle their significations well. The Vedic tradition sees it differently as they stress the apparent visibility over what the medieval/Hellenists would call "unnatural motion".
The question isn't necessarily "which is correct" because they both are operating under different contexts, but the question is "which will you follow" presumably while being influenced by the specific contexts.
M
may28gemini
I thought that since Saturn is the "great malefic" that he works just the same inward and comfortable in retrograde.
Old Ibn Ezra (12th century) characterized retrograde planets as "self-conflicted"-which, disregarding the issue of whether or not they are "stronger" or "weaker" in retrograde status, I think is an often useful, practical way of considering the quality of an rx planet...
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Not necessarily
JMO the entire natal chart must be considered.
Every natal chart is completely individual
No, on the contrary, and most especially if he is angular and out-of-sect ruling some important point. Retorgrade planets are very unstable and, as has been mentioned previously, prone to taking back, or not even completing, what they bring to the native.