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zona967
12-16-2012, 06:30 PM
I've read the retrograde motion is considered accidental debility, but what do the classic texts say about its nature in a nativity, for example?

How would retrogradation differ from a placement in the 12th, 6th or 8th house, for example?

Thank you.

JUPITERASC
12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
I've read the retrograde motion is considered accidental debility, but what do the classic texts say about its nature in a nativity, for example?

How would retrogradation differ from a placement in the 12th, 6th or 8th house, for example?

Thank you.
As you are interested in classic texts of astrology, then one of the classic texts is the Anthology of Vettius Valens which just so happens to be freely available after almost two thousand years, having been translated by a Professor Riley :smile: at http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf and I posted the following comments on Hellenistic delineation of retrograde motion during a discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=344568#post344568
That's OK Moog, glad to contribute - I learned these ideas mostly from Robert Schmidt's translations of Vettius Valens http://www.projecthindsight.com/

Conditions relative to Sun then:

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station or from second station up to the heliacal setting, the planet is capable of appearing and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified [Schmidt says that Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”].

Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth. Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15ş standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions.

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”.

zona967
12-16-2012, 10:41 PM
Thanks very much. :)

Konrad
02-04-2013, 11:17 AM
Personally I find Retrogradation to be an abnormality rather than a straight debility. Retrograde planets tend to be unusual in their manifestations I also find there is an element of delay in their significations or of the planet being unable to carry out its significations to the full.

These traits are much different in Horary than in natal work. I find my comments above more suited to natal work. I would follow the traditional descriptions of it being a straight debility in horary work; you don't want the querent or quesite being retrograde then. Interestingly, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi in their introductory work talk of pushing nature/management/power which basically involves a planet applying to another and the effects of different siuations therein. There is another facet of this which is "returning". This is when a planet applies to another, the 2nd planet is afflcited someway (being under the beams or retrograde). The 1st is pushing nature/management/power to the 2nd but the 2nd can't carry the burden so returns it to the first planet. If the first planet is cadent or otherwise afflcited, it can't carry the burden and both planets and their significations are harmed. If it is angular and unafflcited, then it receives its original burden from the 2nd planet and can carry out the significations of the contact. I find this more relevant to horary as Horary is more immeiate and specific but I am open to using it in natal work, particularly in annual work such as Revolutions. I believe these techniques are Persian in origin (as opposed to Hellenistic or Arabic).

As for natal, if, for example, a significator of wealth was retrograde while having lordship in one of the various time-lord systems, we could expect the acquisition of wealth to be delayed or we could expect it to be received but taken away later. I find this last point many times in nativities. The planet can bring its signfications but lacks the power to solidify them and they are taken away or they dissipate.

Indian astrology sees retrograde planets as being very powerful in their significations.

Moog
02-04-2013, 02:26 PM
Retrograde planets are closer to the earth. Retrograde planets are visible (earthly conditions permitting), for longer periods.

Jupiter, for example, has been retrograde for a while, and visible in the winter night sky.

Come July, he will be combust and rising always with the sun. He will be mostly invisible during this period.

Here's an image made with this free program (http://www.alcyone.de/planetary_lunar_and_stellar_visibility.html) to illustrate;

http://24.media.tumblr.com/efa5c4596f91ea94b84198ae56e1bb65/tumblr_mhpabpUPPR1re07yfo1_500.jpg

It seems sensible to me that retrograde planets have more power to influence, and combust planets are weaker and have less influence.

However, the planets have a range of motional qualities, with the two states mentioned (retrograde and combustion) being part of a spectrum of 'states of being', in regard to their relationship with the sun and the earth.

Cheshta Bala ('motional strength') is one of the parts of Shad Bala, a quantitive system of measuring planetary strength. Most Vedic astrology softwares have a shad bala calculation function, and it's definitely worth checking out if you're interested in learning about these things.

Jagannatha Hora (http://www.vedicastrologer.org/jh/) is pretty sweet for a freebie.

dr. farr
02-05-2013, 04:45 AM
There is an opposition regarding rx in the views of Hellenistic and Traditional Western astrology VS Vedic astrology (from its earliest times to the present) The West has always considered Rx a detriment, debility, at least a negative situation, Vedic always as the planet being strengthened in its influences (whether for good or for ill)
I have mostly adopted the Western perspective, however over recent years I have more and more been leaning toward the Vedic outlook; at present, I think I have seen evidence for both sides of the issue!!

Konrad
02-05-2013, 07:03 AM
There is an opposition regarding rx in the views of Hellenistic and Traditional Western astrology VS Vedic astrology (from its earliest times to the present) The West has always considered Rx a detriment, debility, at least a negative situation, Vedic always as the planet being strengthened in its influences (whether for good or for ill)
I have mostly adopted the Western perspective, however over recent years I have more and more been leaning toward the Vedic outlook; at present, I think I have seen evidence for both sides of the issue!!

Yes I too am not sure of the quantative power of a planet retrograde. I find stationing planets to be of great importance though.

gen6k
02-08-2013, 02:03 AM
some people think forward is action-historical while retrograde is ahistorical.

the planet becomes introverted or resetting based on the transit effect.

the forward planet is considered more pure and more fluid since it follows the energies programs.

the retrograde is about reprogramming and changing course. the retrograde is easier to see program lines. although the forward representation of it is not ready.

this is why retrograde can be better for yin activities and foreward or speed up is better for yang activities.

the retrograde has to focus and climb while it feels like its being held back while the forward is free to make on the spot decisions.

the retrograde planet communicating with the foreward planet has some transduction errors when they are coming at the situation from a different angle.

the retrograde period is a more silent period, but the noise is more ambiguous maybe subconscious.

dr. farr
02-08-2013, 03:59 AM
some people think forward is action-historical while retrograde is ahistorical.

the planet becomes introverted or resetting based on the transit effect.

the forward planet is considered more pure and more fluid since it follows the energies programs.

the retrograde is about reprogramming and changing course. the retrograde is easier to see program lines. although the forward representation of it is not ready.

this is why retrograde can be better for yin activities and foreward or speed up is better for yang activities.

the retrograde has to focus and climb while it feels like its being held back while the forward is free to make on the spot decisions.

the retrograde planet communicating with the foreward planet has some transduction errors when they are coming at the situation from a different angle.

the retrograde period is a more silent period, but the noise is more ambiguous maybe subconscious.


Interesting insights for consideration:smile:!

JUPITERASC
02-08-2013, 07:57 AM
While reading an interesting discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7286&start=45 I noted the following relevant comment regarding retrograde planets :smile:

'....So, the "unusual expression" of the retrograde planets I DON'T take to be:

a) "well it will be ok just the same as in the case of direct planets, but will be realized in an unusual way".

I take it to be:

b) "well, it will not be so ok as in the case of direct planets

...and will be realized with more difficulties and obstacles and probably would not last or will be transitory, taking into account the other fortitudes or debilities of the same planet".

This is, in my opinion, the difference between the expression in an unusual way of the retrograde planets.

And of course, we can't judge anything for sure on one testimony only. But the retrogradation would add to the whole picture...."

Konrad
02-08-2013, 10:10 AM
While reading an interesting discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7286&start=45 I noted the following relevant comment regarding retrograde planets :smile:

'....So, the "unusual expression" of the retrograde planets I DON'T take to be:

a) "well it will be ok just the same as in the case of direct planets, but will be realized in an unusual way".

I take it to be:

b) "well, it will not be so ok as in the case of direct planets

...and will be realized with more difficulties and obstacles and probably would not last or will be transitory, taking into account the other fortitudes or debilities of the same planet".

This is, in my opinion, the difference between the expression in an unusual way of the retrograde planets.

And of course, we can't judge anything for sure on one testimony only. But the retrogradation would add to the whole picture...."

Yeah, Ile is a good astrologer. I'm glad he agrees with my own findings.

Zarathu
03-28-2013, 04:12 AM
While Ivy G-B dis write one of the more widely read horary textbooks, she is not a traditional astrologer.

Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson believed that RX planets gain inner strength and an access to an inner depth, and are much like icebergs. There is much more to them below than there is on the surface.

I guess this is more like the Vedic view. I don't know if this comment is out of bounds with the discussions here regarding traditional astrology since I am not a traditional astrologer.

Z

may28gemini
04-18-2013, 12:34 PM
What about Saturn Rx? Isn't Saturn actually comfortable in retrograde motion?

Lakewind
04-23-2013, 02:36 AM
Many have commented on the opposing views re retro planets. Is there any similar difference between systems re peregrine planets? I have a peregrine uranus in the 10th natally, and find it had a very big influence in my professional life. I was always anti authoritarian, and have been arrested many times for civil disobedience. I was completely unable to accept or respect supervision or supervisors. I never had a supervisor I could respect, til I quit working for others went to Law School and worked independently. However, I then was able to recognize the particular judge I worked under as having legitimate authority over me because of the diligence he exhibited, his knowledge, his respect for the least who entered the courtroom, etc. Sadly, both my daughter and granddaughter have the same pattern of Uranus in the 10th, and I feel sorry for them and their supervisors.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-23-2013, 03:14 AM
What about Saturn Rx? Isn't Saturn actually comfortable in retrograde motion?

No.

Many have commented on the opposing views re retro planets. Is there any similar difference between systems re peregrine planets? I have a peregrine uranus in the 10th natally, and find it had a very big influence in my professional life. I was always anti authoritarian, and have been arrested many times for civil disobedience. I was completely unable to accept or respect supervision or supervisors. I never had a supervisor I could respect, til I quit working for others went to Law School and worked independently. However, I then was able to recognize the particular judge I worked under as having legitimate authority over me because of the diligence he exhibited, his knowledge, his respect for the least who entered the courtroom, etc. Sadly, both my daughter and granddaughter have the same pattern of Uranus in the 10th, and I feel sorry for them and their supervisors.

Outer planets are not peregrine in traditional astrology as they don't have dignities.

As for differences in interpretation of peregrine planets in general (you could probably also make the case for the differences in retro), I think it gets a lot more difficult to discuss something when we start framing them in terms of psychological or personality traits instead of events or things that they signify. The medieval and Hellenistic traditions are pretty straightforward about retrograde planets being unable to handle their significations well. The Vedic tradition sees it differently as they stress the apparent visibility over what the medieval/Hellenists would call "unnatural motion".

The question isn't necessarily "which is correct" because they both are operating under different contexts, but the question is "which will you follow" presumably while being influenced by the specific contexts.

Lakewind
04-23-2013, 03:52 AM
Yes, I did forget that traditionals don't count the outer planets. Yet, can the question be answered using a personal planet, say Mars? I am curious as to the possibilities of opposing views.

may28gemini
05-02-2013, 02:05 AM
I thought that since Saturn is the "great malefic" that he works just the same inward and comfortable in retrograde.

dr. farr
05-02-2013, 04:24 AM
Old Ibn Ezra (12th century) characterized retrograde planets as "self-conflicted"-which, disregarding the issue of whether or not they are "stronger" or "weaker" in retrograde status, I think is an often useful, practical way of considering the quality of an rx planet...

JUPITERASC
06-21-2013, 07:17 PM
I thought that since Saturn is the "great malefic" that he works just the same inward and comfortable in retrograde.
Not necessarily :smile:

JMO the entire natal chart must be considered.

Every natal chart is completely individual

Konrad
06-21-2013, 07:54 PM
I thought that since Saturn is the "great malefic" that he works just the same inward and comfortable in retrograde.

No, on the contrary, and most especially if he is angular and out-of-sect ruling some important point. Retorgrade planets are very unstable and, as has been mentioned previously, prone to taking back, or not even completing, what they bring to the native.

Skillcoil
06-21-2013, 08:12 PM
What about Mars in Aries, 1st house, 0 degrees but retrograde (and a lot of squares)? will it being retrograde always overshadow the positive effect it could have? it's already progressed.

JUPITERASC
06-21-2013, 08:18 PM
What about Mars in Aries, 1st house, 0 degrees but retrograde (and a lot of squares)? will it being retrograde always overshadow the positive effect it could have? it's already progressed.
'Secondary Progression' as generally understood is the province of modern astrology methinks

- so is not a traditional consideration in this case :smile:

BobZemco
06-21-2013, 10:26 PM
Many have commented on the opposing views re retro planets.

There's not really opposing views as much as there are misunderstandings and inappropriate comparisons.

Gonna replace the piston rings in a Mazda RX-7 are you? No, you're not, because that's a rotary engine and it doesn't have pistons.

Still, it's an engine, and it gets you where you want to go, right?

The point being that Vedic and Traditional do not conflict. They are two totally different systems, yet they work, just like the rotary engine and the piston engine operate on totally different principles, yet both perform well.

Sort of like complaining that a banana doesn't have citric acid like an orange,.... well, no kidding, it's a banana, not a citrus fruit. Let's move on....

A Rx Planet coming out of its 1st Station is not the same thing as the Rx Planet heading toward its 2nd Station, right?

A Planet still in its 1st Station rises before the Sun does, right up to the point the Planet opposes the Sun, and from that point onward, the Planet rises after the Sun rises.

So, we're talking about Planets that are Rx and either East or West of Sun (not to be confused with East or West in the Chart itself...meaning East or West of the Midheaven --- which is something completely different, and yes, it has an impact).

A Planet not yet reaching opposition to the Sun is escaping/has escaped from Combustion, while a Planet that has opposed the Sun and is Rx is heading straightaway to Combustion -- and Planets don't like that.

Is there any similar difference between systems re peregrine planets?

What if there was? It wouldn't matter.

I have a peregrine uranus in the 10th natally, and find it had a very big influence in my professional life. I was always anti authoritarian, and have been arrested many times for civil disobedience. I was completely unable to accept or respect supervision or supervisors. I never had a supervisor I could respect, til I quit working for others went to Law School and worked independently. However, I then was able to recognize the particular judge I worked under as having legitimate authority over me because of the diligence he exhibited, his knowledge, his respect for the least who entered the courtroom, etc.

That's all very fascinating, but it has nothing to do with Uranus.

I, too, have Uranus in the 10th, and have never been arrested. I was a soldier once...gave orders, took orders. I was a cop, too. Team player --- I like group activities (uh, but not group sex).

The 1st House in your chart indicates how you appear outwardly to others, both in the sense of your physical appearance, and how people see/describe you -- your character.

The Sun represents authority, and the 10th Sign government or other authorities, so it wouldn't surprise me to see you Ascendant Ruler or Sect Ruler in square or opposition to Sun, or the 10th Sign Ruler, or the Chart Ruler or to each other.

Sadly, both my daughter and granddaughter have the same pattern of Uranus in the 10th, and I feel sorry for them and their supervisors.

You may be a little premature.

Yes, I did forget that traditionals don't count the outer planets. Yet, can the question be answered using a personal planet, say Mars? I am curious as to the possibilities of opposing views.

What? A Peregrine Mars? Like John Wayne Gacy?

A Peregrine Planet indicates cunning (as it relates to the significator).

Dignity is about "Comfort Zones."

A Planet in its own Sign is like you being at home. You can walk around in your drawers, drink milk out of the jug in the fridge, adjust the thermostat anyway you want, and so on, meaning you can do things you wouldn't normally do in front of other people or when you are their homes.

An Exalted Planet is like that, only more....you're not just the king of your castle, you run the 'Hood.

A Planet in Triplicity is like you at Aunt Mabel's house. You can get away doing a lot of thing you'd normally do at home, but not everything.

A Bounded Planet is like you staying at your 3rd Cousin's Aunt's Nephew's house. You are certainly welcome there, but you feel a little awkward (exactly how are we related again?) and you generally feel as though you're imposing on them.

In its own Face, is like you as an American going to Canada, the UK or any other English-speaking country. You blend in, but don't necessarily fit in, and you're not exactly keen on Bangers and Mash.

And if you're not in one of those places, then you are a stranger in a strange land.

If you want to survive and thrive, you'll have to exhibit a little more than mere common sense....you'll have to be cunning, street-wise, sly, clever, crafty or whatever else you want to call it.

This cunning can be used for good....or bad.

I'm guessing you don't have a Sect Ruler Peregrine Moon Combust a Peregrine Out-of-Sect Sun nor a Peregrine Pisces Mercury applying to square Peregrine Mars from the 10th Position and receiving Mars by Sign & Bound, while Peregrine Mars (Water Triplicity Ruler in a Night Chart) receives Peregrine Mercury (in Detriment no less) --- like Gacy does. Did.

Mars [generally] signifies things Martial --- altercations both physical and verbal, strategy, tactics, combat, sports, athleticism etc etc etc.

You'll have to look at where Mars is in your chart, and what Mars signifies (in addition to Martial qualities), as well as what Mars rules.